On The Sofa (6)

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    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa  Thanks for the link — interesting reactions to GoT.  We watched most of it, though I never minded missing an episode —  women (and a certain eunuch) intrigue, men betray, everybody kills if they live long enough to do that, and they’re all moving around a large fictional geographical stage all the time, on foot, horseback, ship, etc.  There are things that bore me on screen (and often on the page too — I skim a lot more than I used to): sex scenes (sorry, it’s actors faking something that’s just mechanics unless you’re *not* faking it, and that’s nobody else’s business, says prudey old me); torture scenes (I *really* hate them, maybe because of the horrible revelations of political torture in our own supposedly more civilized times, of real people by real other people and with truly devastating and indelible results); and scant grounding in simple realities, such as, what are the Dothraki and their horses living on as they tromp around endlessly looking for an army and a fleet for the Targaryan blondie?  We do see her dragons foraging for themselves, but then she chains them up, and whose sheep is she buying to feed them with the money she needs for an invasion fleet?

    It’s silly, but it distracts me; like so many of the males being rugged middle-aged guys when I’ve read that some of the, er, poor impulse control that led to the violent volatility of such times in history was in part because so many warrior and leader types were kids, more like Joffrey — more juvenile delinquents in armor than grown men.  It must have been hard to get to *be* a grown man in a world without antiseptics or antibiotics, if you were constantly fighting with edged weapons.  And then there was food poisoning, not to mention just plain poison, and accidents galore — ).

    Somehow, this kind of thing hasn’t been an issue for me with DW, over many years of watching . . . ??  It’s just more my kind of fantasy, I guess, more variable and surprising, and with a domestic scale (the Tardis is a flying house/ship, after all) to work outward from to the deaths of worlds, if that’s where you’re going.  Smaller casts and tighter focus appeal to me (come to think of it, I don’t read vast, teeming fantasy adventure series either, not since Tolkien).  My loss, I suppose, just as those who turn their noses up at the Doctor’s adventures lose out, too.  Ah, well, strokes and folks, as always.  I’ll certainly look in on GoT when it resumes.

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bluesqueakpip    Thanks for the book recommendation.  That’s another one on order to be added to the tottering ‘to be read’ pile 🙂

    I was a bit wary of Ehrman’s arguments, knowing his background, and it certainly looks as if he might have developed a tendency to overstate his case, to say the least!  To be fair, though, in ‘Who’s Word…‘ * at least, he is at pains to make it clear that the vast majority of discrepancies between manuscripts are the result of copyists errors.

    * I think the title in the US is ‘Misquoting Jesus’ which seems even more confrontational!

    ichabod @ichabod

    @mudlark  Now, that’s something I need to read —

    janetteB @janetteb

    @ichabod I am in agreement with you re’ GoT. I want to like it but the overriding view of humanity that it projects really annoys me. My eldest son is counting down the days till the next series and I do follow what happens with some degree of interest but it is one of those series where I would prefer to read the episode by episode blog on the Guardian than watch it.

    I am eagerly awaiting the BBC adaptation of Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. Have you read that novel? It is one of my favourites.

    urgh. Veering dangerously off topic here. Trying to think of a GoT Who reference but failing. (Other than the obvious Jenna Coleman and Richard Maddern one though apparently he is a Who fan and has taken selfies in front of the TArdis. Aww sweet. See what trivia a quick google search reveals.)



    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod Surprisingly I like GoT -its an intriguing collection of tied together
    dungeons and dragons plot lines in a sort of epic soap opera kind of way. How can
    one resist all that. Anyway, I like relaxing and enjoying the production value of
    it too.

    On another subject: http://dangerousminds.net/comments/dainty_teacups_filled_with_cthulhu
    odd Oods in teacups! hm??

    ichabod @ichabod

    Oh, most of my friends are GoT fans, it’s no surprise that lots of other friends are too.  It’s a hugely successful show, many cuts higher in every department than the better-than-average — but it just doesn’t grab me any more; what can I say?  Except that I went off the Doctor, too, for a few years, so maybe I’m just more easily bored than most viewers.  And I’m not a guy, so all the sexy boy-bait scenes do absolutely nothing for me, but that sorta goes for the sexy guys, too . . . Huh.  Frankly, I think I’m just more interested in catching up with some newer music these days, so I’d rather go roam around tumblr and listen to the music people bring to some of those sites, as here too.

    Strokes ‘n’ folks, what the heck; you love what you love, isn’t that what they say?



    lisa @lisa

    Some folks may think a Phone Box space ship is a bit unusual but how about
    traveling thru space in a horse drawn royal carriage? This is a segment
    from the filmmaker Melies around 100 years ago that I came across very
    recently – I’d rather travel in the Phone Box 😉

    lisa @lisa

    Forgot- I was on a playlist again -Oops!!!! Here it is

    janetteB @janetteb

    @lisa my SO will love those photos of Cthulhu in the tea cup. (Also love the early Melies films. A horse drawn carriage would be fine as long as it was bigger on the inside. Not sure that getting through space would be so good for the horses though.)

    I had a really s**t morning this morning. The power went down in the night and so the alarm didn’t go off. Yr 12 son had an important excursion and had to be early. I woke up way too late. Anyway rang school, got them to contact the teacher and put him on the train in the hope that he would find the class in the city. Dropped youngest to school only about 90 minutes late. Was waiting at the traffic lights, feeling rinsed when a car passed me in a tun lane with BAD WOLF on the back window. Not really expecting it to be Who related I then noticed the “family stickers on the other side of the rear window. It was just lucky the lights did not change at that moment. The family stickers began with the Tardis, I think there was a Doctor, there were definitely dakeks and I think the “family” ended with K.9 Annoyingly the car was in the other lane and I did not have a good angle of view but needless to say, I was immensely cheered.



    lisa @lisa

    @Janette Its nice how seeing all the Doctor Who stickers turned the morning around
    for you! It seems I’ve been noticing relationships between the show and real
    world stuff. Just sort of became tuned into all of that.
    The first vid I posted is part of a Melies playlist. although it would have been
    much better to have some of the original music too. Did you see the Martin Scorcese film
    “Hugo’? It was a very nice flick that had Melies in it.
    Without giving anything away it was done in such a way that I didn’t realize at first where
    it was going and I was pleasantly surprised. Definitely worth a watch.
    I wasn’t sure about the horse either although it didn’t really look like your typical
    Earth horse.

    lisa @lisa

    Happy 10th anniversary of the return of The Doctor! CapDoc reminisces here….

    lisa @lisa

    @Purofilion Thanks for that vid. I saw Gavin and Stacy a some years ago and that’s when
    I first saw James Corden. Now he hosts the Late Late show and I hope at some point he’ll
    get SmithDoc and do a Doctor skit with him maybe something like what he did with Tom Hanks!
    Tom Hanks grew up in Sacramento California where I live and he still has a very big presence
    in this town particularly in the preforming arts. I understand he has a lot of his family
    still living around here too. What can I say about David Bowie! In a former life I saw
    him in concert. I think that was when he and I were both living in LA. Good days!

    Anonymous @

    @lisa thank you for that! ( above) and also the Melies & the mention/reminder of the playlist


    well, dear, it’s Friday evening (even where you are -the other thread has songs of the day, which, considering it’s Oz, means we can dive into that pool a day early). I hope you’re having a better end to your week! The Friday songs should cause a definite mood shift, in any case. And did your boy make it to the city excursion after all?

    @lisa Yes, I thought you might have seen the Bowie interview  -if you’re a fan of the Thin White Duke and Ziggy and all his Doctor-like incarnations! As a character, he would have been a great Doctor -and even a fan, I wonder if anyone’s ever asked him?

    In all honesty, and I think I commented on the youtube clip about Tom Hanks looking a bit star struck, whilst Tom’s a nice, regular guy,  as an out-and-out- Republican I just can’t view him with the same ‘love’ that others do?

    I shouldn’t let  political convictions get in the way of how I see him as an actor -nor should I be affected by the self-deprecating (read: wanker) sanctimonious waffle of some who declaim, “gee I don’t watch the typical Hollywood cockbluster film which costs $40 000 000, because I’m such a nutty art-house freak, dude, and these other movies are made by fascist turds who know nothing and over-edit their shitty movies and really, dude, I do so much better stuff and why [whining] don’t they employ me?”[sniff]

    Anyway I loved some of his films -was it ‘Big’ which had him wake up in an adult body and make a toys ‘r’ us type company, millions?

    I just didn’t go with Private Ryan and that other thing where he survives a plane crash and ends up having a ball buddy called Wilson? Just not my thing, I guess. Many moons ago I finished a Masters on glam rock which included Bowie -it was huge fun, and typically, my Czech conservative family didn’t like Bowie and were attracted to  accordion marching band music and  their latest crush -which, in the ’80s, was this dude, with long blonde hair who manipulated turned the piano classics into some ‘easy listening’ shmulsh. The guy made a gazillion. Freak (whine) 😉

    So anyway, back to the Doctor: thank you for that marvellous clip -so perfect for today as @fatmaninabox said on the other thread. I have always been  a fan of that score (possibly the best music score of all time, imo, because it can be ‘retrofitted’ for each incarnation and as the decades pass the theme needn’t date) and of that particular  series in particular -it’s so  beautifully balanced, with the winds and  the horns and other brass scored in their best range so it sounds verifiably like a movie theme, tense, magnificent and glorious without any of the pompous repetition that goes with Williams’ vanity score and others -though I won’t can the Star Wars theme -that was astonishingly  brilliant and probably the most memorable of any of that decade, imo.

    Today, I put on ‘Rose’ just as a thank you to the vision of RTD -where would we be without him?

    “you eat chips, watch telly and go to bed and all the time underneath you there’s a war going on” says Chris’ Doctor.

    Superb. And the scene where Jackie says: “I’m in my  dressing gown and there’s a strange man in my bedroom. Something might happen…?”

    And Chris, in his inimitable way, shakes his head vigorously and stalks off ready to be mauled by the Auton’s arm whilst Rose is making tea and Jackie (ever hopeful) is blow drying her hair. Her reflection in the mirror is somewhat desperate  -though she could be burning her hair. Or knots. Sheesh,  I have shoulder length hair and I still have knots. I’d have a cyber-head just to avoid ’em!

    Whoa, off topic. Still, better than too many theological debates.  Today, I heard someone say that Katniss Everdeen was a good comparison for Jesus Christ to which I replied, “more likely Stanley Tucci.” I got glared at and asked the question, “are you serious?”  to which I replied, “no more than you”.

    Geez, I peeve people ovv. I vonder vhy?

    PS: Bowie in concert was terrific -even the last one when he was, maybe, 60? Amazing energy. Never quite the energy of The Stones or Freddy Mercury but unique nonetheless, and a great voice for glam rock -nicely operatic

    Anonymous @

    @lisa Hugo was artfully brilliant -gorgeous young stars and a riveting plot. I’d forgotten it was a Scorcese. @thekrynoidman would know that!

    janetteB @janetteb

    @purofilion the week has ended well. Son did get to his excursion yesterday though rather late. Now to get him to do his homework…

    @lisa Yes I loved Hugo. Have watched it several times. The book is beautiful too which reminds me I have promised my youngest son a copy. Might be an idea for his upcoming birthday. A few years ago there was a BBC documentary about automata, Mechanical Marvels; Clockwork Dreams which is well worth watching if you can get hold of it.




    EmilyJMarshall @emilyjmarshall

    Hi everyone, new person here who’s just found this forum!
    Quick note about myself: Emily, 18, UK and have been watching Doctor Who since I was 9.
    Anyway I was wondering if anyone could recommend me some Classic Who to watch as I tried to go from the beginning but I find the first ones hard to stay interested in…

    Thanks in advance 🙂

    DonnaNoble @donnanoble

    This is only my third post, and I just need some feedback on the first part of a short story I’m writing for a contest. It’s called “Nothing Ever Happens in Hopper Creek” and it’s meant to be a horror-like story, but it ifs not tell me. It’s also written in second person to make the reader feel part of the story. Please let me have all feedback, good and bad, so I can change what needs to be changed before I go any further. Thanks! Here’s the first part:


    Nothing ever happens in Hopper Creek. There aren’t even any animals. It’s a small town, with everybody living on the same street, with the store and school and stuff on another street. The population is less than 100. You could say it’s more like an advanced colony than a town. Everybody knows everybody else. The only exciting thing is when Jack Ross, one of your best friends, throws a party. Which is about every week. You were at one of these parties when it started. The feeling of someone watching you. Studying you. As you go to get some more punch, you see a shadow flicker in the window. But you dismiss it as your imagination. Your friend Mary walks up to you, obviously distressed about something. “Hey…” She slowly draws out the word, hesitantly. “Hi,” You say back. “Do you have that feeling someone’s watching you?” The question took you by surprise. Mary was never one to be paranoid. “Why?” “I just feel like something is…” As she finished the sentence, she looked out the window and her face froze in an expression of sheer terror. You looked too, but all you saw was… Well, you don’t know what you saw. If you didn’t know any better you would say it was a claw. A three fingered claw. It was gone in a moment, but the image lingered in your mind. “I’ve… Got to go. See ya.” She basically yelled the words as she ran out the door, leaving you to ponder the… Whatever you saw. Just about then Jack turned up the music, and no one heard the scream.

    Anonymous @


    welcome. Okay, nice story. Needs some finer punctuation and also paragraphs and proper setting out of dialogue. In fact, let the dialogue tell the story.

    Nice plot though. Well done

    Anonymous @


    We’re watching some classics each Saturday -the Daemons we’re doing right now. It’s Pertwee and it’s great. Try that and then some early Troughton. We have some opinions on the 2nd doctor thread which might give you some ideas. They’re quite cheap to purchase at what would be your BBC shop (I think) rather than a down-load -gotta save your BBC!!


    Kindest, puro

    Anonymous @

    My name is Odysseas, I come from Greece and I’m 16 years old,
    I started watching doctor who (the rebooted series) 3 months ago and now I’m almost done with Season 8

    Should I start watching the originals? do you know where I can find them? (tpb, kickass?)

    Also do you suggest any extra doctor who books? tv shows? games? I haven’t watched the doctor who confidential, should I?


    Frimann79 @frimann79

    Hi there noble Dr. Who people.

    I need a little favor if possible. I’m a card collector (and a Dr. Who fan), and I’ve been chasing this deck of playing cards for ages. I just discovered this forum, and I’m thinking that someone around here might be able to help me out. The deck I’m talking about is the one from the Gallifrey One 21st Convention: Black Jack 21 in 2010. It’s the one I have in my avatar. These are the only two pictures I have:


    I really don’t know why they’ve been so impossible to find. They’re not particular old (2010), but eBay always has exactly zero of them, and I can’t find them anywhere else either. Maybe they were made in an extremely limited quantity, or I’m just really unlucky. If any of you have a deck I can buy (or know someone who has) I’ll be willing to pay a fair (!) amount of money. Not hundreds of bucks, but I’ll try to give you an offer you can’t refuse 🙂

    Thanks for reading this, and it would be so much appreciated if you could help.

    ThePapalMainframe @thepapalmainframe

    Ummm, not to be rude or anything @Frimann76, but selling things is not what this website is directed to do. If you joined the site it should be about wanting to connect with fellow Whovians, not buy things from them. Hope there is no offense taken.

    Frimann79 @frimann79

    No offence taken. And how would buying Dr. Who merchandise from fellow Whovians NOT mean that you connect with them? I wrote privately to a couple of the forum members who seemed most active to hear if they could somehow help me out. And I was advised to post here. And I’m pretty sure that I have connected with more people in here than I would have if it wasn’t for my burning desire to get those cards.

    I honestly didn’t mean to annoy anybody with my request. And I promise I won’t turn the forum into a marketplace. I apologize if there’s a more suitable sub forum for my post. I looked around before I posted and couldn’t find one.. I didn’t just post in the first random sub forum I saw.

    If you get me those cards I promise you I’ll never ever post anything trading related here again 🙂

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @frimann79 — sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Personally, I’m of the mind that it’s OK to put this kind of thing on On The Sofa. Memorabilia and merchandise is a big part of the Who experience — just so long, as you say, the forum doesn’t turn into a marketplace….

    Anonymous @


    that’s a very interesting find you have there. I haven’t seen any but I’ll ask my colleagues -some of whom are avid collectors of things in general and also Whovians. Goodluck.


    welcome to the Forum. As I said to the person who also posted yesterday, a good place to start is what we’re watching: the Daemons with Pertwee, the 3rd doctor.

    If you look at your BBC website and their sales on Dr Who, you can see that they have some collections of Dr Who originals like say, the first 6 episodes? By episodes, I mean a collection of several little series, really -each title would have 5 or 6 episodes, 25 mins each. There’s one called:  The Beginning containing, An Unearthly Child, The Daleks and The Edge of Destruction, quite cheap actually.

    I also have The Ark from the selection ‘The William Hartnell Years’ and Frontios with Davison. I think they’re great.

    Not sure what you mean about TV shows? Dr Who is a show, right? There are some connected programmes like The Sarah Jane Adventures and Torchwood. Very different as the former is more for kids and the latter being M or MA (PG13+) is for the other end of the market.

    The books or cartoon books are in any BBC shop and on-line are easy to buy as are the audio books which a few people on this site like a lot, though they’re not considered ‘canon’.

    I’m sure there are games! There’s the rest of the marketing stuff after all – t-shirts, mugs, sonic screwdrivers etc.

    If you have the DVDs then of course watch the confidentials; they’re very useful for a behind the scenes look although they finished a couple of years ago due to a lack of financing.

    As for the show itself, if you have seen any Doctor Who at all, you can visit the Memories thread or the Companions thread and discuss what your favourite memories of Dr Who are and why you first liked it. If you haven’t ever seen it, then I’d recommend you jump right in 🙂 The new series is out in a few months. They stand independently so I don’t think you always need a backstory to  any new series -but the confidentials and interviews are available on Youtube though I’d have a personal tendency to say ‘go for the originals and make a purchase’ -I think you’ll enjoy it.

    Hope that helps.

    Kindest, purofilion

    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion  — “out in a few months” — those words are music to my ears!  Except it’s 5 months, which is a bit more than a few . . . Meanwhile, “The Blacklist”, which had legs for a while, has recently gone pear-shaped, formularized, and boring.  TV has never seemed such an endless wasteland.

    Driving in the car today, errands, tuned to a local Spanish station that also carries “This American Life” and other bits of good radio, but was satisfied just to listen to Freddie Brown’s “La Bamba”, for god’s sake.  “I’m not a sailor, I’m a captain!” but I’ve got no vessel, thrash, splash, drowning here . . . Back to the last bit of “Sea of Souls” and more “Midsomer Murders” etc. on Acorn, I guess.  The stories are sometimes dull, but the acting is always good-to-better, and that’s worth much.

    New book out that I tried to get today at Barnes & Noble, “Why Acting Matters”, by someone named Thompson, I think — I thought I had a review right here —

    WhoHar @whohar


    How short is the short story? 10 pages, 20?

    In the opening, you need to set the scene pretty quickly – maybe in the first 10% of your story, so 1 or 2 pages. Exposition.

    I’m not really getting a sense of either the place (where, when) or any of the main characters (who they are, what drives them). In DW terms think of the pre-credit sequence, although TV is fast paced and economic.

    I see there is a threat but you need an incident that will set your story off on it’s narrative path, the Inciting Incident.

    You have chosen a difficult medium, with the restriction on length. Maybe send through an overall story outline and then we can see where you are going. Hope this helps.

    What is the competition, out of interest?


    Anonymous @

    @ichabod is it 5  months? Cripes! Well, it’s worth it. Funny, I never know what to say to people who pop onto the site and ask about what series, games, DVDs, merchandise are out there?  I notice the mods (who are too busy understandably) don’t always get time to answer those questions and I’m happy to help, though I’m not the best person to ask! I hope that the poster gets a good feeling about this site and that we’re happy to share ideas although, ‘in my day’ if someone helped you out, you’d say “hey thanks for that”. But it’s different now. And I’m not having a bash at anyone, people use the internet in a variety of different ways and that’s fine by me, as Sue Grafton would say!

    I’ve learnt in the past few weeks that if there’s some ‘issue’ and a new poster, goes all ‘vampire’ on you as happened on another thread, then it’s better to say “I’ll take that on board and thanks for the feedback”

    I left a msg on the other thread about Broadchurch. Did you watch the 2nd season at all? You may have mentioned that before but I don’t recall. I know what you mean about telly and its incipient quality. Also, its insipid quality-just to use a bit of repetition and a ‘poetic device’ 🙂

    We had some repeats of George Gently in Oz which went well -thought they were pretty great, as ‘great’ goes, these days. In Oz, Jack Irish is very good but that’s about it. The latest, Hiding, was smashingly awful and embarrassing.

    American telly has this series called Catfish after the original doco with Neve and Max somethingarother. Awful, trashy garbage that I watched a couple of times. Have you seen it? 🙂

    @whohar that was great feedback and I’m sure the poster is very happy. I didn’t know what to say -I’m no writer but I can deduce structure & its importance -from the writing that I have to do; related to work and rather boring.

    You have writing in the pipeline from what you shared earlier last week? So it’s wonderful that members here can give suggestions. In fact, if some suggestions come from someone like you then people are effectively getting free advice when really these responses would normally emanate from a paid writing class -expensive, but then it depends on the degree of interest/passion (Mind you, this is a competition and I remember the strict rules we had with assistance in music writing and copying. Tough and hard to manage or invigilate). With music, you have to play and with writing, if it’s in your soul, so to speak, then you have to write.

    I agree that short stories are a very difficult medium and remind me of the sort of tight script which telly writers for an episode of 43 mins have to produce. The dialogue progresses the story and despite the ‘horror’ or the ‘big bad’ it’s always about the people and their experiences with each other, how they relate, grow and what moves them.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @purfilion — mentioned this on another thread, so I’ll try not to be too repetitious here — but yes, I stopped for a look at a Broadchurch episode last week, I think it was, and was, as before, underwhelmed.  The characters never appealed to me, and I’m not a Tennant fan (I like my screen guys older and more marked by life, I guess — maybe Tennant is a bit too boyish to interest me), so there’s not much there for me.  At least with “Fortitude” I’ve got a solid, adult, watchful Stanley Tucci, and Michael Gambon (who looks like the wreck of Noah’s arc in this show) to watch, and the young Spanish (Portuguese?) woman plays a character with the sense of a heavy back-story hovering behind her.

    I did catch a couple of “Gently” episodes, but they’ve been rare over here — I’ll go to acorn for the full set, and Jack Irish is there too, so I’ll try that; thanks!  Not all UK crime stuff works for me (well, it would be a surprise if all of anything did).  I’ve tried some and wandered on — really enjoyed Morse (John Thaw — well, there you go), even though it got a little peculiar sometimes and I had to forcibly suspend my disbelief in this cultured cop singing cantatas in the choir, getting his perp, and never getting a promotion or being interested in a woman who wasn’t The Killer — huh?  I watched what we got of young Morse, like it, ready for more but they’ve just started re-runs of the first season here.  Did you see that horrific set of shows that started with “Red Riding”?  Jeez, I could barely take that stuff, powerful as it was!

    What I’m really after is more of the series about Dalziel and Pascoe which only ran one season here in the US.  I guess Dalziel was too ugly for us “lookouts” over here.  Too damn bad.  Always loved Reginal Hill’s work, miss him.

    WhoHar @whohar


    @donnanoble has made a smart move in asking for feedback, no matter how nerve-wracking that can be. Part of writing is accepting positive feedback, as is re-writing. A lot of re-writing.

    I don’t mind the re-writing part so much bit generally have 3 or 4 scripts in various stages on the go to keep it interesting. Funnily enough I am waiting for feedback on one right now.

    I checked out Writersroom for submissions. Currently doing comedy but drama is TBD, in the autumn.
    Also looked at Amazon Studios, most interesting thanks. Again they want comedies and children’s shows which I am not working on right now (unless I can squeeze some jokes into my WWII drama). My feature is kinda taken. Kinda. I will take another look though.


    Anonymous @

    @ichabod ah hah! Someone to discuss Fortitude with. I too love Tucci and Gambon -I referred to him as Dumblebore last week with the evil Volde being the child, apparently!

    I have no idea what is going on! The chem teacher (terrifyingly played by the usual comedic Boyd) is over-feeding the young lady -daughter of the Doctor (small town) who, despite the stabs, and the ‘vomit’ of egg white type substance’ appears to still be alive!

    well, she’s breathing, unless it was the last heave of the dying; presented for dramatic  effect?

    Is there some badMojo? Is Harry Potter (cigar man shaman) attempting to fix it up or tear it down?

    Did you notice the party at the bar (near the end) where everyone was dancing as if they’re on PCP? Gosh I’m on what seems to be episode 7 but it’s possible that you get 2 hours and we get one. Not sure.

    Are you able to work out what is going on?

    As for Morse, yes I used to watch him too but I don’t think he’s been on any channels here in a while.

    Though, whilst channel surfing on the ABC, I noticed that they’re doing a re-run from the 1st Doctor -presumably as an anniversary nod. @janetteb -you might already  know that ABC 2 are showing some Who, starting shortly?

    Cheers, puro

    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion   You’re a couple of eps behind us, then, so I can’t say much about “Fortitude” without spoilers; we’re closing in on the finale here.  It’s sure neat looking, though I have some doubts about the streamlined nordic-modern architecture of the “public” buildings on a remote island with nothing much going for it and maybe 500 inhabs?  Pretty, though, as long as you don’t have to *be* there in person.  The “magic” cooked up by Gambon (Henry) and the Inuit taxidermy guy is supposedly based on some long-gone “native” superstion that HP apparently knows, and it’s an attempt to protect the boy with the frostbite feet from bad spirits that seem to have gotten into people and driven them to these gory killings.  We’ve been getting them in 1 hour slots.  It’s all kind of slow, but it does pull you in.

    Morse is gone because John Thaw had an actual massive heart attack several years ago that killed him, or so I read somewhere, a bit like Morse in the series’ end.  Have you seen the follow-up they teased out of that show, “Inspector Lewis”, with Edward Fox’s son playing Hathaway, his ex-religionist sergeant?  They make an effective team with a nicely different dynamic than Morse and Lewis had together.  Now there’s young Morse, a show running under the title “Endeavor”, and starting back in — the sixties?  I’m not sure; period, anyway, thought modern period.

    We’re getting a bit of mix-and-match Doctor here too, keeping us on some kind of rations until we actually get some proper meat almost half a year from now, I guess.  It’s all NuWho, I think, but jumbled, very annoying; none of the old stuff.

    Anonymous @


    I didn’t realise that Morse had died. The actor -goodness I cannot keep up.

    OK, so Fortitude is pretty much about the crazy mojo causing massive disturbances. I may have spied some Insp Lewis but didn’t attend.

    Ah, nu-who with the ‘gorgeous’ Tennant. I know a  lot of people adored him and interestingly some of the high school students I taught ages ago actually liked Eccleston more and thought those stories in that series re-boot were better than the ones RTD did with Tennant’s potential. It was all a bit ‘young’ and ‘romancy’ for me? I liked it and my boy loved it but he was really switched on by the Smith  stories beginning with The 11th Hour.

    By then he was transfixed by the arc that was progressing throughout all of the next few series. Whilst he likes Capaldi he doesn’t find the arc as compelling but that’s possibly a ‘young’ thing. Still, during a Tennant re-watch, he didn’t know what the fuss was about though we both acknowledged it had a media angle that caused a massive crowd attachment that Eccleston wasn’t interested in -and fair do (that’s an English expression I play with and don’t use real well, obviously!)


    3rd episode of the 2nd disc of S4 -Cordy has no idea who or why or even why she is. Staying with Connor is off for Cordy, I think and as for Wes wanting to play ‘Fred’ with Lilah is very like the destructive period of S6 Buffy. I’m surprised Lilah permits this, though she probably gets off on it as well. Cordelia is thinking of facing this apocalyptic being on her own. Not a good sign and Connor is in love with her (and I understand that easily) but I hope that wears off soon

    Seems that young Fred with her makeup and her…well, grown up attitude is changing and I think I like that. The ‘aw shucks’ Texas girl was becoming annoying: the American Princess is liked isn’t she, as a type (she’s in kids cartoon movies a lot too)?

    The high pitched, shrugging, good natured and ‘er excuse me for speaking’ type is something of, and for, America, I think. The UK has, in the last few decades taken on the older, deeper voiced women: Tamzin Outhwaite, Amanda Redman: broad broads!  I imagine for every one of those ‘English broads’ there are twice as many in the States -but the older female characters are not seen in telly so much. If they’re  older -say, 50, they look 35, and why?? Is glossy straight hair, tight clothing and ‘revenge’ always necessary? It’s still a reactionary female which isn’t the case with Buffy or Angel, where these women are proactive and ‘kick ass’ (or “assai” as Cordelia pre-goddess would say).

    Also I notice Lilah uses ‘Kablooey’ as a term!  I thought that was Will’s own. 😉

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @whohar — No problem. Yes, Amazon is kinda prescriptive at the moment but if you’ve got a feature it’s worth popping it on — although if you’ve been able to find interest elsewhere then that should definitely take priority. You’re working on a WW2 drama? Me too at the moment. Maybe we should compare notes.

    @ichabod — I loved the Red Riding Trilogy, and the books on which they’re based. Although I realise that they might be a bit too bleak for some tastes. And Hathaway in Lewis is of course non other than Billie Piper’s other half, so a kind of Who connection there.

    @donnanoble — @WhoHar has given you some pretty sound advice. Think about structure. Is this meant to be an outline or a piece of flash fiction? If you post more in future (and feel free to) I would probably pop it in the Fan Creativity section if I were you.)

    janetteB @janetteb

    @Purofilion. I hadn’t noticed the Who rerun on ABC. I don’t watch TV at night. That is usually when I am working or supposed to be.

    Five months to go!!! I guess they are filming now. I am surprised by the lack of news leaking out or maybe that is because we don’t have @wolfweed here these days to keep us up to date. I hope he returns soon.

    @jimthefish and @whohar. I am a war behind you two. I am currently working on a WWI story. Mine focuses very much on the experiences of women and the German settlers of the region. I have been reading copies of the local paper from 1914 which is a kind of time travel in itself.



    WhoHar @whohar

    @jimthefish @janetteb

    I didn’t realise so many writers frequented these boards. Very happy to give you both feedback; I deal mainly in scriptwriting but a lot of principles are the same. DM me if you want to.

    On a broader note, I think my idea for a forum written Who ep could work. Not sure about the mechanics of it, but I am sure we have the knowledge and talent. Perhaps a call for ideas on the Fan creativity area? 2-3 lines summary to start, with a vote for the most promising and then a short precis of the full script? Not sure how it would work after that, maybe one person could run with it and then take feedback?

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @whohar — a collaborative piece of creative writing could definitely work and be quite interesting I think. I did do a few installments of a kind of alternative first season of Who as a blog and as the fiction category has been set up, maybe we just set something up as a blog post which he can all add to in the comments? But initial pitches in the Creative Fiction thread is probably a good idea too….

    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod @Purofilion @Janette
    Just wanted to let everyone know that all the Morse and Daziel etc. and so on can be found
    on YT ! That is how I have seen thru a lot of these series. I love all that sort of stuff.
    Also, realize for some reason some folks don’t want to watch stuff on a laptop but I have
    no such issues about it and all these are much more worth watching IMHO than most of what
    is currently on the TV tube. Here’s a link for Daziel but its not the only 1

    Been watching Fortitude intermittently but it’s a real bit of a slog. Thinking that it has a
    unearthed by global warming virus attack leaking thru the story? But it isn’t holding me
    very well at all. So I really might be taking away the wrong notion from the pieces I watched.

    DonnaNoble @donnanoble


    thank you for commenting. The reason the excerpt from the short story is so confusing is because it’s written in second person. The main character is you. You are Mary’s friend. The setting I thought was made quite clear. The place is Hopper Creek, a made up place (obviously) and the time can be any time you want. I am writing this story so that everyone, no matter who reads it, will be the story. I hope I cleared up any confusion. And if I didn’t, I don’t plan on following any of the normal standards for what “writing” is. The main event that throws everything into confusion is actually not until the very end (Spoilers). My point being, and no disrespect is intended, if something is strange, it’s because I want it to be. The length is, concerning your earlier question, well, I don’t know yet. I’ve written the ending and the beginning. Just not the middle. And it is for a competition. Again, thanks for your feedback.

    Anonymous @


    I appreciate the explanation but if you need to make the explanation, this it’s not so clear in story and that could cause problems?

    It’s sounds interesting, though!

    Just on the setting -in writing terms it’s more than just a physical place: there’s a figurative element to what your ‘setting’ needs to be able to do to ‘move’ the story on so it’s clear and we get a total sense of ‘knowing’ rather than confusion. It can be hard to achieve.

    Keep up the good work -on the Creativity/Fan section I think jim said.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Happy Easter everyone from the Doctor Who team.

    This made me smile. A lot! Creepy Easter bunny 🙂

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n9kt1 (message from CapDoc)

    Embedded image permalink


    ichabod @ichabod

    Bringing a reply here, to a post by @bluesqueakpip back on Open Thread TV shows, because this is speculation about time travel in general as well as DW specifically, so I think maybe this is a better venue?

    The topic was the problem of The Doctor in a universe in which past and future are already fixed, by “fixed points” in time, throughout the entirety of the flow of time from end to end (assuming that means the beginning of our universe and its future ending): predestination’s constraints on voluntary action/inaction.  Bluesqueakpip said (correct me if I’m wrong!) that being a time traveler, the Doctor would know who’s gonna get killed by the Daleks at any point in time and would be remiss if he didn’t use time travel to go save the victims, all of them, and also everybody else who’s an innocent in peril at pretty much any point in time. He’d be the ultimate janitor, zooming around fixing everybody’s messes before they had a chance to happen as messes, and that would give the universal time line fatal hiccups of contradictions, confusions, and unimaginable snarl-ups as a result of his activity.

    Seems to me that knowing the future challenges coming his way and their outcomes (because he’s a Time Lord and has traveled extensively in the future) is not a problem for the Doctor if choice matters; and choice only matters if the future is not fixed.  If, instead, the future is woven moment by moment by all of our choices at each moment, and all of the choices we’ve each made up til each moment.  Which would mean, I think, that there is no “future” there for anyone to know or not know, only ranges of potentiality fanning out ahead from where we are in the present.  The future is formed instant after instant by what we choose now, and only becomes fixed when it becomes the past.

    Then what the Doctor visits when he travels forward would be one future pathway among many possible ones, perhaps the most likely one, but still, only a sort of phantasm that feels real to the Doctor, but immediately melts back into potentiality when he leaves.  The future is potentiality for us to shape into reality moment by moment.  The past is fixed (because we don’t have time travel), although our perceptions of the past shift and change continually, with historical discoveries, new historical theories and methods, changing theoretical lenses through which to look at the past, etc.

    The show creates the predestination problem for itself by assuming that the future *is* already fixed (by fixed points in an otherwise flexible flow of events).  Assume a future as yet unactualized, and the destinations of travel into that future that are really still only *possible* futures.  Choice in the past is over; choices in the present make the actualized future out of an amorphous mass of potentiality.  Predestination as a problem goes away; only the past is determined.

    But then we get to wonder instead, why bother traveling into “the” future if there are multiple potential futures, so there’s no guarantee that anything you do in the one you arrive at will be part of what turns out to be the real, actualized future, rather than just a doodle in the margins or erased altogether?  Why go to a possible future even just to observe, since what you see will be only a possibility?  Traveling into a past that is already fossilized by “fixed points” or by choices already made is pretty problematic in itself, unless you only go as an observer to see what really happened.  *Acting* in the past to alter already actualized outcomes leading to the present changes everything ahead, including the possibilities of being able, in the present, to choose that past point and go there to make a change.  That’s the kind of loop of implications that keeps me from writing time travel stories.

    Greg Benford’s “Timescape”, an old book but a good one, posits that major choice points in the present create alternative timelines in the future, each one real for the people in it.  He has future scientists communicating with present ones to warn them of the dead end their future earth is rushing toward in time for a different set of choices to be made now, leading to survival — leaving the doomed alternative earth to travel on into an environmental apocalypse instead.  Lots of SF uses this idea of alternative universes/worlds/timelines, as has Doctor Who.  It’s re-admits the significance of choice in the present, since choice is what selects the branch of future time that your world will travel down, so what you do matters in terms of what happens afterwards.

    Too complicated; head hurts; maybe too complex for a TV viewership that includes and is partly designed for kids.

    So, DW takes modified predestination as the template instead (the timeline is fixed, but can still be tinkered with by the likes of Time Lords without destabilizing the whole thing, because the writers say so — it’s fixed and malleable a the same time).  It kind of works.  Given lots of “gray areas” in the Doctor’s mind and a willingness on his part to *not* travel into The Future (stapled into relative rigidity by “fixed points”) specifically to check and see how everything comes out (and the part his own actions/inactions have played in that Future), he is free to act in the present pretty much on the same basis that we all act in the present: using the best version we can figure out of our necessarily incomplete information and understanding of the situation, we make our choices as they present themselves and live with the consequences (or not).  But any trip into the past or The Future will necessarily involve a lot of “sidestepping”, per bluesqeuakpip’s comment on “Open Thread TV” and people *not* thinking about predestination.

    I hope this makes some kind of sense, and is in the right place.  If not, I count on the Mods to shift it to someplace better on the site.






    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Bluesqueakpip said (correct me if I’m wrong!) that being a time traveler, the Doctor would know who’s gonna get killed by the Daleks at any point in time


    and would be remiss if he didn’t use time travel to go save the victims, all of them

    Not quite. What I meant to say was that some people would blame him if he didn’t go save the victims. In a predestined universe, of course, he can’t save them. They’re predestined to be exterminated. As opposed to being predestined to die in bed, or die in a road accident, or die because some idiot squaddie shot up a house without first checking who was in it.

    The show wobbles around this quite a lot, but the concept of fixed and not-fixed points implies that some stuff is ‘predestined’ and other stuff is in a state of flux.

    Choice in the past is over;

    Which is, from the show’s point of view, an awful lot of the problem. Firstly because we’ve visited the future so much, we know there is one (it removes a lot of jeopardy from Kill The Moon if we already know we didn’t destroy the Moon) and secondly because visiting the future means that our present (and much of the future) IS the past.

    And then there’s the problem of visiting the actual past and knowing that – say – Agatha Christie doesn’t get murdered by a pissed-off giant wasp. Not only do we know this, the characters in-story know it. So if choice in the past is over, they might as well wander back to the manor for a cup of tea and leave Agatha to fight off the wasp. It’ll make no difference. 😈

    If, instead, the future is woven moment by moment by all of our choices at each moment, and all of the choices we’ve each made up til each moment. Which would mean, I think, that there is no “future” there for anyone to know or not know, only ranges of potentiality fanning out ahead from where we are in the present. The future is formed instant after instant by what we choose now, and only becomes fixed when it becomes the past.

    Our choices?

    What about that undersea earthquake that’s about to erupt and cause a whacking great Tsunami?

    What about that comet on a collision course with our planet?

    What about that alien on Tau Ceti III who’s just found out how to exceed the speed of light (and therefore, to travel in time)?


    My maths really isn’t up to the Many Universes Interpretation, or indeed to amorphous masses of probabilities, but I’d quite like to know if there’s any observable evidence for any of them? Or are they in the same state of quantum indeterminacy as predestination? 🙂

    From the show’s point of view, their writer-induced flux between ‘fixed points’ and ‘grey areas’ is a pretty good metaphor for the way life (observably) works. There are some things about the future that our choices can change. There are other things that we can’t. Working out which is which is important.

    It may be handled in a child-friendly way (everything’s better with big explosions and rubber monsters), but it’s not a bad metaphor.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip  Yep, I agree, the show assumes a fixed-but-only-sometimes river of time, with fixed points as a sort of patch that kinda works.

    So given the show’s assumptions about fixed past and fixed future, agree with your points on that problem — there’s got to be an awful lot of gray area to cover all that otherwise-knowledge about both past and future.  It’s getting worse, of course, with each complication-by-time travel, and good luck to them with that!

    On the interruption of natural events/disasters: yes, definitely yes; I didn’t address that before, because — agh, complicated!  Headsteam!  And I’ve already got allergies . . . Gotta go a little deeper, then.  For me, we are all individual souls, each one incarnating in a succession of lives for the purpose of learning what physicality is — and the physical plane is the only place that that experience is available (and yes, I’m assuming — or inferring, if you like — the existence of other planes that are not physical).  What we learn is not only the consequences of our choices on the physical plane, but the consequences of our choices in collision and collaboration with all the other choices being made, plus the underlying progression of the laws of physics working themselves out on the physical plane of their application.  Not only (IMO) is our activity not predetermined, but we incarnate in order to experience accidental events and how they intersect with our choices and the actions of ours that they lead to.

    So physics/chemistry/math etc. *are* instruments of predetermination, but not of our choices, which are situational and responsive also to our individual ideas of and desires concerning that present and the future that grows from it.  The laws of physics/chemistry/etc., acting as they must act on the physical universe, are the set; we, and all sentient beings that are also sapient (which I take to mean, equipped with time-binding thought and some sort of language to express it) are the actors.  The drama that nourishes, entertains, and teaches us is the product of the interaction of these forces.

    Oh, that’s funny!  I’ve arrived at a version, more or less, of what the DW creative team uses — a flow of time and events that’s both fixed (laws of the sciences and their inevitable workings) and moveable (sentient choices, i.e. “free” will)!  Plus — drama, nourishment, and maybe even learning!  For some reason, that strikes me as — I feel like an idiot (*without* a box)!  But I really do see reality that way, have done for decades.  I don’t recommend it, mainly because it’s just as unprovable as the perceptual structure that I reject (God), so why pick this over that?  One convinces me, the other doesn’t.  Strokes and folks, as always . . .

    ichabod @ichabod

    Oh, and I don’t *have* any maths, so my ideas are just that, ideas and I can only get so far with them, so I prefer the notion of a field of potential near-futures and increasingly broad and indistinct farther futures potentially growing from them, so when you choose A rather than H, instead of creating two separate time streams, ad infnitum, A is actualized into being, but H fades away to nothingness, as with everything — choice matters because choosing for A means choosing against the rest of the alphabet of potential for that particular choice.  Another way of saying, maybe, that multiple universes just don’t do it for me.  The idea feels arbitrarily over-complicated, though a useful device for story makers.

    Anonymous @


    Yes I recall your reincarnation belief to which you alluded a few weeks ago (or was it months now? Whoa, time passes when you’re having fun!) and I find it worrying only insofar as I mentioned last time “Oh, no, I have to do this all again?” 🙂

    I can understand that when not applied to the rather worrying belief systems of Buddha, reincarnation, when it stands alone, could make a great deal of sense except I would use your own response about insufficient evidence in God (or an after life) and apply it to reincarnation: it might be the ‘right’ way but is it real?

    To the extent that anything is real and that, I suppose, is the nature of faith and believability and where real faith steps in. To continue in faith when everything around one collapses, is extremely difficult and in an age of immediate reward and believing only on sight, ensures the process is even more difficult to sustain. Faith, I guess, must be connected to action -but having watched Angel, I’ll steal (and paraphrase ) the idea that if there is no higher meaning to anything that we do then even the smallest action and the tiniest act of kindness is imbued with the highest meaning (yes, when I said paraphrase, I meant “twist it around and wreck the original” -but I think I’ve got the gist). Though there is also this which I have absolutely correct (crosses fingers -also an heretical notion):  “we live as if the world were as it should be to show it what it can be”

    This, I suppose, is the cornerstone of anyone’s private belief?  To show others, through small actions, that life and this world can and must be a better place. This suggests an ongoing progression by the human race  towards a more perfect state. Is this a religious notion? I think it is, but equally, it can be one of ethical and sensible considerations where people coordinate to achieve ‘rightness’ but once this so called rightness is determined as better or more correct than another -such as the Islamic “way” reacting to the Christian’s “only way”, then we end up having bitter, divisive conflagrations that seem to be never ending-and almost certainly will never end until one or the other is completely wiped out or simply gives up due to weariness.

    To relate this to the Doctor: he steps in and helps out without judging either race, species or ‘type’ which is truly progressive. He’s prepared to die to protect others from wrong doing and perhaps makes the hard decisions so others don’t have to? The Christmas Invasion was interesting as the Tennant Doctor fought a duel for the defence of planet Earth. He won, his condition was met (even though his partner in the duel tried to pull a swifty) and the spaceship fled leaving Earth defended.

    Doctor Who has progressed considerably in the past 10 years as Capaldi’s Doctor made it clear that it wasn’t his home, therefore it was Earth’s decision, Clara’s and Lundvik’s to either save or destroy the moon. The more I think about this particular episode I see that our own destiny, the path we take to fully controlling our planet and its reserves was the main concept driving this series: it drove the Doctor too. It made him ask “what is good? Am I good? Are you pudding brains at all good and do you need to step up and defend yourselves whilst I pop in occasionally and help you out, whether you deserve it or not?”

    It made us question our abilities as mature and independent beings and it highlighted the Doctor as an idiot in a box flying in and out in between fishing expeditions. Yet in the end, when Clara needed the Doctor to do the impossible: to find Danny and bring him home, he answered her request. Does that mean that we’re not entirely ready to have those training wheels taken off? I think we’re not. And I think it’s OK to know that.

    Where that leaves God, I have no idea! Still out fishing I suppose -like the Doctor but nothing really similar to the Doctor. I like the Doctor’s suits and clothes -I don’t go for the long hair, robe and sandals so much -too Woodstock. Anyway, I mustn’t descend into ‘trite’ 🙂

    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion  Oh, believe me, I do not look forward to more lives here.  I’m nearly dumbstruck when religious people respond with, “Oh, you’re just taking the easy way out, trying to avoid judgment etc.”  Easy way out, my elbow.  Anybody here want to be an adolescent again?  I’ve met reincarnationists who think there are “shortcuts” to avoid more lifetimes, but I think *they* are making up an easy way out so they can take it.

    I’m not a real Buddhist; there are many varieties of Buddhism, as of every other system, and some include mobs of demons that only a monk or priest can deal with (for a fee, maybe); or reincarnation as other animals (a waste of time, IMO, since I already inhabit an animal — my body — so those lessons are part of what I’m getting anyway).  I am talking about reincarnation as process, not a religious system.  I can’t prove the system is real, any more than anybody can prove any belief systems real that aren’t based on some type of “hard” evidence.  Call me one of those “SBNR” people you read about in the news; organized religions leave me cold.  Finding my own way pleases and satisfies me, probably because my natural inclination (in this life, mind <grin>) is to ask questions, not to grab answers.  That’s how I write, how I think, and (I hope) how I live.  Reincarnation-as-process is a highly provisional perceptual grid that I’ve cobbled up for myself for looking at big questions; that’s all.

    I like your Angel quotes.  If God is real, it’s essential to try to live a decent life to not disappoint Him.  If God is not real, you try to live a decent life as a responsibility to self and society.  But in both cases, there can be these bitter divisions that you allude to — only more so, in my view, when morality is codified under different labels, like Christianity and Islam.  So I prefer the private route, as you say, and if my private grid ever does become both publicly significant and codified under a label, I’ll probably go off looking for something else before the stupid doctrinal wars start.

    People of faith, in my view, have chosen in this life to do the “faith and its consequences” unit, which I think we do over many times, and not always in order.  I’m doing the “skepticism and its consequences” unit, also not for the first or last time.  I think we all do them all.

    As for the Doctor, as a story told in our reality the Doctor is a prayer: “Please, somebody, send us a brave, clever defender with magical powers who will see the justice of our cause and help when we’re on our beam ends and drowning.”  The prayer goes unanswered: there is no Doctor in reality (so far as we know).  In his fictional universe, he himself knows of no  God.  As you say, he’s a bit like what God ought to be (a bit — he’s not all-powerful or even all-seeing on account of the “gray areas” and, well, the “idiot” part).  But he’s also like us, with an alien edge so he’s not like us *only*; he’s also like the Ood, the creatures from “Time Heist”, the space whales, and all the sapient species out there.  If there is a God hidden in the Whoniverse, the Doctor could be a very rough and clumsy avatar.  If there isn’t, he could be the Whoniverse simply including such a helper in itself for balance in an equation in some universal math beyond math.

    I agree on NuWho — it was like a sudden lurch forward in maturity for the Doctor, which is really what brought me back to the show.  And no, as a species I don’t think we’re ready to lose our training wheels.




    PaperMoon @papermoon


    My maths really isn’t up to the Many Universes Interpretation, or indeed to amorphous masses of probabilities, but I’d quite like to know if there’s any observable evidence for any of them? Or are they in the same state of quantum indeterminacy as predestination? :-) 

    My maths isn’t either. However, scientists abhor a vacuum and a study was conducted in 2010 to see if data collected by WMAP could give evidence of the possibility that during the early stages of the development of our universe it had interacted – or ‘bumped’ – into other universes and therefore left some kind of detectable signature. None was found. Though this doesn’t necessarily mean the question has been forgotten.


    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod @Purofilion This conversation reminds me of the Rumi quote about ‘the sun sets
    and the moon sets but they never go away’ which to my mind either refers to regeneration or
    reincarnation -which ever is your preference.
    Of course this is 1 of the exceptionalisms of the Doctor – he’s a super hero. His other power is
    that he can also manipulate all those grey areas in the pockets in between the real and our
    imaginations because he can tinker around with time. So the future is always fixed until it isn’t.
    All the times we thought for sure that things were going to end up 1 way and as a result
    of the Doctors tinkering had different consequences speaks to me of a hopeful message.
    Which makes the Doctor also a sort of religious icon too I guess 😉 I personally don’t care about
    the religious concepts – although I do ‘believe’ that our Doctor is not a slave to darkness but rather
    a slave to light which is another definition of superhero. He always seeks the path of light.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip  Fine, glad to hear it!  One universe at a time is all I can handle, and probably all there *can* be — doesn’t “universe” mean it’s a unique thing, only one of it?  Jeez.  Seems as if some people want to ride a dozen horses at once instead of one . . . “multiverse” seems like fanciful overreach to me; but then so much of science does.




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