On The Sofa (6)

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    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    Was planning to watch the Daemons anyway. Think some of you guys recommended it.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Yup, Daemons would get my vote too ūüôā


    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Daemons definitely says I.

    Whisht @whisht

    yep – Daemons for me too!

    Anonymous @

    @craig I¬†saw Spearhead, Inferno, Sea Devils and The Green Death. I’ve heard about Daemons only so that would have my vote also.

    Thank you.

    Anonymous @

    Hello, fellow Doctor Who enthusiasts! I’m a Doctor Who fanatic and endulge in all things related to the show.

    May I take this oppourtunity to ask you all a favour. I am conducting a survey to find people’s favourite Jon Pertwee serial. I’m a long way off of my target and therefore need some people to cast their vote. In advance, thank you to all those who contributed their opinion and if you could, suggest it to others who enjoy the show. Thank you.


    (The Dæmons was my first. Good memories.)

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Not sure if this should go in Fan Creativity but it seemed a nice thing to chill on the sofa with. All the Doctors as visualised through a Tim Burtonesque distorting mirror. I love them. Especially the moving ones at the end. #4 is knock-out ūüôā



    MCWitherWolf @mcwitherwolf

    Well, hello Everyone. I’m MCWitherWolf and I’m new on th forums. Soooo I pretty much just like to talk about what the heck all that timey wimey stuff means. Because it’s confusing. But my brain, being as it is, some how understands most of it. So yeah, expect some pretty deep topics from me.

    Anonymous @


    “Because it‚Äôs confusing

    And yet you said “deep”.



    Anonymous @

    OMG Gattis in G of Thrones? what is he doing mucketing about with all that clap-trap I ask you.

    Now, I’m giving precisely nothing away as I’ve seen exactly 3 seconds of the scene and recognised only the¬†voice because people at the Iron Bank (or whatever it is)¬† are not overly fond of the wash basin!

    Right, out comes the ironing to prevent boredom & future sarcasm attacks.

    lisa @lisa

    Funny flick with Capaldi Jennifer Saunders and Robbie Coltrane + CapDoc wears a Fez at 12:03-ish!

    some one with more tech savvy should pull a still shot of the fez to post on one of the Who sites?

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @lisa Mwahahaha – great video link. What is it with Scottish Doctors and drag? ūüėÜ

    WhoHar @whohar

    Hello. Apologies for being offline (afk) for so long but last year was a bit of a CU Next Tuesday. RL got in the way.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @whohar welcome back. Nice to hear from you again. RL can be annoying can’t it. It keeps getting in the way of the important things, like Who.



    ichabod @ichabod

    RL for me right now: damntaxes.  Well, no, taxes pay for civilization, but damn *paperwork* for taxes.  Grrrr.

    ichabod @ichabod

    Not sure where to put this, but if people haven’t seen it somewhere back in time, it might be of general interest. It’s an interview with Armando Ianucci, the director (and producer?) of “In the Loop”, the movie about Anglo-American politics during the run up to the Iraq War, which was itself (the movie, not the war) an outgrowth of the political comedy series that gave us Malcolm Tucker, the King of Cussing, “The Thick of It”. ¬† It’s all well before the DW hoo-hah started, before “The Musketeers” even, and I doubt that the way of working described here is much like what goes on in Cardiff (or Tenerife) these days, but it’s an interesting look into a working actor’s life and the way indie films are probably still made:


    WhoHar @whohar

    @janetteb  Many thanks. I did venture onto the other place a few times (aka Guardian Who Forum) in the last year but became pretty disenchanted in the end.

    On the plus side, I managed to redraft (several times) and expand¬†my¬†script about, of all things, an internet fan forum. Pretty close to final version – now I’ve just got to figure out where to send it.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Radio Times has put up its top 10 episodes of the modern era.

    Personally, I think it’s veers towards the crap and I suspect has been hijacked by the Tennant fanboys. The End of Time, Army of Ghosts and even feckin’ Journey’s End get placed but The Eleventh Hour, The Pandorica Opens/Big Bang and The Lodger don’t? Pah! I call pish to that.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    But enough of that, Jim, what do you really think? ūüėÄ

    It’s a perfectly sensible top ten, actually, though I’d agree that The Eleventh Hour ought to be in there.

    You’ve got:

    • The first regeneration of the modern era
    • The story where the companions of the modern era are all reunited together with some of the cast from the spin off shows
    • Vincent and the Doctor – an extremely powerful show from Matt Smith’s era
    • The Fiftieth Anniversary Special
    • The loss of the first Companion of the modern era (Rose)
    • The story which ends the Tennant/RTD era
    • and one heck of a lot by some bloke called Steven Moffat.

    Top tens are always a bit argumentative – but I really don’t see anything wrong as such. People seem to have been voting on ‘historical status’ rather than ‘story quality’, but there’s nothing wrong with that.

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip — good point. They’re all milestones of one kind or another. So I suppose it’s fair enough that they get placed.

    But to my mind there’s an awful lot of outstanding episodes that have been passed over in favour of ones that are bordering on mediocre to bad. I truly hate Journey’s End for all its hubristic fanboy bombast and Army of Ghosts/Doomsday is only really redeemed by its Bad Wolf coda.

    Craig @craig

    @jimthefish @bluesqueakpip

    I don’t think this has been posted yet. A tongue-in-cheek list of the worst Doctor Who stories ever.

    I love “The Girl in the Fireplace”, in which “The 10th Doctor Who uses a magic fireplace to groom a child.”


    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @craig — Thought that was very funny. And they got the tone of a certain type of fanboy turned professional reviewer ARSE-i-ness just right in my opinion.

    Anonymous @

    @craig @jimthefish

    Oh, that article? wonderful! I too loved The Girl in the Fireplace and of course, quite apt at the moment, Daemons with Pertwee.

    I imagine there would be crazed comments?¬† I imagine they’d speak about how the anti Thatcherite, communist brigade is infecting the current Doctor Who, and in fact, always has -particularly as ‘the women’¬† have been travelling whilst¬†single, with a single man rather than aspiring to stay at home to cook and clean, putting personal wishes on hold, perhaps permanently¬†-a most noble expectation.

    Years ago, I read an article in Brisbane’s courier mail¬†asserting how the¬†telly¬†had infected young minds with¬† occult and witchery concepts thus opening¬†them up to significant demonic ‘infestation’. Harry Potter made the top of the list as did books by Jostein Gaarder: Sophie’s World and naturally, Doctor Who. That somehow we’d seen ‘aliens’ and decided that they were in most cases like the Doctor –¬†good and true, when this in fact was a masquerade -all aliens were demonic creatures straight from hell and thinking otherwise would send us to that sulphurous region in short order. Unless repentance was the operating assumption.

    Another topic is how developed these companions have become. I¬† re-watched The Christmas Invasion with Rose standing on the roof of the Estate beside those under the ‘blood hypnosis’ of the invaders and deciding, with complete resignation and despair,¬†that they were¬†going to die, and that without the Doctor (in his regeneration ‘sleep’) there was nothing “to be done to stop them” (the Sycorax).

    @tenthdoctorftw might have some insight here but it seems even since 06 that the companions have become vastly experienced, not just lending a hand, but fully surmising a possible response to the situation when seemingly there’s ‘no hope’ – Clara using the weaknesses of the enemies in Flatline against them and asking her friend to paint a convincing door which then re-boots the Tardis – ¬†is quite a dramatic development. We had the companions generally asking in panicked tones, “what are we going to do now, Doctor? Do you have a plan, Doctor, do you?”

    Of course we know that Clara’s imitation game Doctor¬†was ‘excellent’, but¬† good? Not necessarily. Not everyone’s saved, although the world was. I was also re-reading some excellent discussions with @bluesqueakpip and @jimbomcmaster on the moral situational issues affecting the Doctor; and the Trolley Problem came up -a parable/psychological concept with which I’d not been familiar until then.

    It’s bemusing to note the discussion we have with the Doctor and Clara as to what the essence of the Doctor is? Yes, he can save the planet from an entirely otherworldly species -and I wonder what the boneless from another dimension have to do with the TLs & their¬†prison in a¬†locked dimension – apart from that, we realise that the Doctor does carry the weight of casualties with him and Clara¬† knows this – are we more sympathetic to the Doctor’s role and the consequences of his decision because he’s an alien and could we¬†condemn the companion for doing what is necessary because she’s human and invested in the planet -and¬†a ¬†female?

    It’s easier to blame someone from your own species -control freak, dictator…That’s why Kill the Moon was so important¬†to the overall arc -giving the ordinary humans the reins to their own planet -teaching them how to handle something monstrous¬† -or discovering the opposite.

    I notice that by Tooth and Claw, Rose is able to assist in saving the hostages from the Mad Monks but we haven’t had a comparable situation where the companion is self-sufficient until this Season past, where Clara, reliant on her own knowledge and what the Doctor has taught her (perhaps some residual awareness of the Impossible Girl remains), is able to save the people.

    Interestingly, Flatline sees the Doctor (as the sonic passes from Clara back to the Doctor) come into his own, fully¬†regenerated, mentally prepared, whilst¬†the companion moves from assistant to ‘apprentice’. Makes me wonder what the Magician’s Apprentice will herald? And which of these are in the offing for Clara:¬†madness, death or a sweet, sensible goodbye? Another option might be Clara in the capacity of Sarah-Jane -solving other worldly intrusions?

    (Some people believe Clara to be pregnant still. I hope that’s unlikely. Not that I’m against pregnancy, by any means -unless the means are demonic in themselves¬† ūüôā -and I’m riffing on Cordelia whose had some ‘close calls’ quite recently).

    Now that the Mixmaster is a woman &¬†the companion has been in the Driver’s seat of the Doctor’s life,¬†suggests the¬†new doctor may well¬†be a woman. We’ve had powerful women in the show recently -River and Amy, Missy, the Tardis itself (“sexy”), so, what’s next? Or Who?

    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion ¬†— I’ve always *loved* that in DW — that the Doctor never asks his female companions to whip up some supper, why don’t you, or lay out some time, or how about giving the floor a little sweep and by the way pay the bills — the checkbook’s over there — and scrub out the fridge? ¬†Not to mention the laundry . . . While the companions have been increasing their stature by leaps and bounds, as you point out.

    Well, if you’re going to have really snappy, witty dialog and the companion has to be smart enough to hold up her end of such a conversation (see all of NuWho pretty much), then she’s only going to be credible if she can also think a bit with that same brain, and learn from the Doctor, not just lollop along with him asking to be enlightened. ¬†I guess I’m saying it’s, ahem, built into what I regard as a great improvement in the writing. ¬†But I would say that, wouldn’t I.

    As for excusing the Doctor his excesses and condemning Clara just for being realistic, human, and female — well, I hate to say it, but I can sure see a certain style of fan doing exactly that. ¬†Besides, lookit, I gotta say — I actually wrote an essay on this once and put it on my website, though it’s now archived — Western culture (I can’t speak for all of it of course, let alone other cultures, but anyway) western culture *privileges* masculine pain and valorizes it (ah, see how he suffers, poor fellow), whereas feminine pain is — exaggerated for effect by drama queens; a dodge and a tactic; weakness; and it’s what women are made for anyway, what with all the messy, bloody stuff that leads up to (aaghh!) childbirth (this also has to do with being “invested in the planet” as in “standing for physicality in all its grubby reality, ugh, pew”.

    That, I am sorry to say, is Built In, and it’s everywhere. ¬†It’s all that god damn torture s**t where the hero gets to withstand dreadful agonies in stoic silence (or not) in order to rescue the whimpering heroine who probably hasn’t a scratch on her. ¬†I have no a doubt in the world that this cultural standard (please, a more elegant term, anyone?) plays into how the Doctor and Clara are differently perceived and judged for similar actions and decisions.

    Oh, beautifully spotted, about the sonic! ¬†She’s been keeping it, and the Doctor’s own agency (necessarily adopted by her while he is literally out of action for most of Flatline), until he’s ready to step into his major role as rescuer, judge, and hero ¬†at last. ¬†Note the difference between the jokey fumble of this transfer in “Deep Breath”, and the swift pitch and clean catch, swivel, and “shazam!” in “Flatline”.

    Naw, she ain’t pregnant; Old Clara doesn’t mention any kids or grandkids, only her own satisfying solo adventures.

    Now here comes the MixMaster to mix it all up — can Clara and her Doctor withstand the chaotic blast? ¬†Or whatever else is coming down the pike? ¬†Poor Moffat & Co — a lot rests on their shoulders, and no matter what they do, of course, some of the fans will be dumping loads of crap in their direction for not doing something else! ¬†Brave? ¬†The *writers* are brave. ¬†It’s funny how I do *not* sit around wishing I were one of them. ¬†I like my night’s sleep, thank you very much, with passions banked.

    WibblyWobbly @wibblywobbly

    About to watch “The Doctor’s Wife”, love the girl who plays the Tardis and I hope she comes back!

    Anonymous @


    another good thought you said -that the companions needs to progress in very many ways.

    Interesting that we have a more ‘original’ doctor: older and perhaps a little crabby (like the original), having solved or bathed in the romance of¬†the Lonely God & its mystique and the’¬†killer of his own’¬† -the Oncoming Storm – whilst the Companion has grown exponentially -from Rose taking the Tardis back and saving Eccleston, to Amy running off and attempting to rescue the needy, Rory waiting 1000 years, for his fianc√©e –¬†not the Doctor, River flying the Tardis and saving the Doctor and now Clara, ‘being’ the Doctor….from Impossible Souffle girl to having a life separate to the Doctor, both professionally and¬†personally to…who knows?

    Like the Doctor, who, for a while quietly walked the earth¬† anonymously saving someone here, helping another there, for no particular thanks but because he liked this planet and its people: I remember Tennant talking to the people on the bus (in the easter ep years ago) and saying “sausages and chips and telly: that’s fantastic!”; “you have a son, that’s wonderful. Remember his”. He enjoyed the creations of the humans and the simple passions and needs which helped define them -all¬†different with a wide range of abilities and quirks which gave him a necessary¬†measure of sympathy and indeed love for them: for the friends, we’ve¬†some, like Donna, who needed to travel, finding a mate to travel with, others like Lady whatshername stole priceless artefacts for the ‘rush’ and the Doc feeling a connection and empathy (and even attraction) towards her.

    Now, the companion takes the stage -and I like that. That it’s a cute (can I say that?) 28 year old, professional woman who has known considerable loss in her life which has given her a certain profound knowledge or edge¬†for one so young -she can solve riddles and puzzles and enjoys the moment -now more than ever, I think, she’ll be sympathetic but also harder -quick to grin and laugh and quicker in making a decision to save someone’s life -over that of another, perhaps. As Rose says years earlier about travelling with this Doctor:

    “It’s not all fun and teleports and whizzin’ about is it? ¬†It’s tough.”

    I just saw your other message: “don’t be embarrassed!” OK, I shan’t be. I’m listening to Danny (the other one, in The Satan Pit) saying “The Ood are staring at me, Sir, watching me. I’ve asked them to stop but they won’t”.

    Yep, silly.

    Anonymous @
      Speaking of “The Satan Pit” ¬†and a few other episodes such as “Gridlock” . Writer’s write about what they know, which makes me wonder about the creators and writers of Dr. Who. I seemed to have noticed something others may never notice:

    Christians the world over know Jesus by many names. One of these is “The Great Physician.” and there are many verses which point that out such as Isaiah 53:4 “By His Stripes We Are Healed.”
    What’s ailing you? He can fix it. Past Present or Future.
    Ever notice how the TV Doctor always ends up- by the Tardis- at someplace where the people are having troubles, and he “Heals” them? Consider Matthew 9:12 which says: “It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick.”

    It also says in Revelation 19:12, talking about Jesus: ¬† ¬†“….He had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.”

    In other words…… “DOCTOR WHO?”

    Anonymous @

    With that blood red cross on my Dalek Avatar. What’dya expect? ¬† Rusty isn’t really the good one. I am.

    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    was drawn in by @ichabod , @purofilion, commenting on women’s versus men’s pain, and the qualities considered admirable in men but not women. I love the current Clara arc, but that whole double standard is one reason I would love to see a female Doctor, and explore the various qualities which have been considered admirable or at least acceptable in a man, such as ‘hard decision making,’ (although I think Clara is on point there) arrogance, the ‘mystery’ of past misdeeds and even genocide, and how they might not be considered ‘attractive’ qualities in a woman. Go on, tell the lady Doctor what’s ‘attractive’ while she eviscerates a Dalek… ūüėČ

    ichabod @ichabod

    @Barbara Lefty ¬†— not just arrogance, either: simple self-confidence will do. ¬†You can hear the rejection of all this in the fan whining about how they hate Clara because she’s “such a bitch” in Series 8. ¬†Such a determined and forceful human being, they mean — how dare she?

    You want bitchy? ¬†MixMaster’s your woman for that, and note that her bitchiness lies in her being imperious, callous, ambitious, careless of the feelings of others (to put it mildly), and perfectly calm about ordering or even causing the deaths of millions.

    Officer material; and most officers in the military are still men, for a reason (the highest ranking one I know is an Admiral who runs the Navy hospital that my kid works in).

    Anonymous @

    @Barbara Lefty

    “Eviscerate.” ¬† Sounds like Exterminate. Ouch. Now, I’ve just realized Daleks don’t have a bathroom in this shell. Ood gets a Loo but what do Daleks ¬†get? ¬† ¬†No wonder we’re so hateful….

    I like Clara. It really bothered me when new doctor Capaldi told her ¬†“I am not your boyfriend.” ¬†Lizard lady said something similiar. ¬†How mean and demeaning. ¬†As if to imply that she is just a stupid silly little girl. She admires him, ¬†she saves the Doctor’s life numerous times, gave her own, and that’s how she gets repaid. ¬†Yeeesh. ¬†I had to remind me that it’s just a TV show. It kinda made it hard to adjust to the new Capaldi doctor, but ¬†I’m ¬†over it.



    Anonymous @

    @DroneX1 what else did you forget? ūüôā

    No, the Dr saying ‘I’m not your boyfriend” was said as much for him as for her. It had nothing to do with him thinking she was stupid -it was not demeaning. He had to get the point across: he was the cute guy once, informal and friendly, hugs and air kisses beside. Now, he’s changed. He was never her boyfriend and I’m sure @bluesqueakpip has some powerful statements to add about why it’s important the Doctor clear that up at the beginning of his series.¬† Madame Vastra said it too. And she was right -hence the veil. I don’t think that Clara saving the doctor’s life means someone should not point out “he’s not your gentleman friend” as Vastra said. It might make it all the more essential for it to be said. Would you agree, @ichabod with this assessment?

    “I seemed to have noticed something others may never notice”

    Eerm, you’re on this site? I don’t think much gets past the really smart people on this Forum ūüôā Mind you, I aint one of ’em, but I try. I tend to leave theology aside in discussing Doctor Who, as¬†it makes me quite uncomfortable. I doubt The Doctor is Christ incarnate somehow. Wait till we get a female doctor -and it’ll happen. That should cause (unfortunately) some dispute over the nature of the production staff!

    @barbaralefty I agree totally. What a male might do and what a woman can do are two different things.  A  living problem in just about every area of life -as @ichabod has made clear.

    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    sorry, @DroneX1, with @purofilion on this. To suggest the ‘ not your boyfriend ‘ speech was demeaning is to suggest there is no other role for a female but to be a girlfriend, where this series has explicitly allowed and explored those other roles and forced a redefining of the Doctor / Companion dynamic. They are friends, who love each other and have each other’s backs.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @DroneX1 ¬†@purofilion ¬†@Barbara lefty ¬† My view: ¬†“I’m not your boyfriend” needs not to be taken out of context. What does CapDoc’s presentation of himself say, up on the stairs? ¬†“Look at me up here, master of all I survey (the inside of the Tardis, that is). ¬†I’m no one’s fresh-faced ‘raggedy man’ in a beat-up tall hat, and I mean you to know it. ¬†I wear black: you can’t miss me, or the change in me. ¬†I am darkness walking, an enigma to be learned all over again.” ¬†(By you; by me.)

    Then he says, essentially, “I’m OLD (unlike you, young person who is young even in terms of your own species’ tiny lifespans), and I’ve been active all those 2000+ plus years so there’s a ton of deeds and misdeeds piled up behind me, some of them stupid, or careless, or hideous in their outcomes — mistakes of my judgment that I mean to fix.” Pause, setting up ¬†the identification of one of those mistakes, a very recent mistake to be fixed right now: “Clara, I’m not your boyfriend.”

    When she protests that she never assumed that, he reassures her: *not your fault*, not criticizing you for it: “I never said it was your mistake.”

    There, that’s cleared up! ¬†“That sets new terms (terms that *I* can manage) for our being in the same room together; so how do you like my new outfit?”

    What he did there: *he wasn’t talking about her*. ¬†Not who she is or isn’t or what she is or isn’t, or anything, really, about her except that he wants to make sure that she *sees* that he’s not flirty Eleven any more. ¬†He’s defining himself as *not* romantically interested in her because romance between him and *anybody* right now makes no sense in logical terms, and he’s absolutely not up to it anyway in his current confused and parlous inner state. ¬†He’s just managed to choose a new wardrobe meant to express his basic self now: the alien being as old and as packed with experience as Madame Vastra’s “mountain range”. ¬†What that is, exactly, he’s not sure yet, but “boyfriend” material it is not, and though she’s zipped around in it as the “Impossible Girl”, it’s not been *her* experience but his. ¬†He needs to settle himself into who that experience has made of him, and meantime he’s certain that he’s definitely nobody’s boyfriend.

    But — she’s been peering at him, looking for Eleven. ¬†And she’s been touching him, during his regeneration fugue, in very familiar way (his hands in “Take five!” and “I’m alone”, for example). ¬†He’s not saying “Don’t do that,” although the “not a hugging person now” is partly about just that. ¬†But he does need those physical cues she gives him (look how she *physically* turns him away from Hood’s gang in “I hate banter!”). ¬†He accepts her guiding touch; but he means her to understand that for him, that contact is not erotically charged in any way.

    That, of course, remains to be seen; but for now, he’s defining himself as a-sexual with regard to her, and taking care to be explicit about it because it matters to him (already, and always) that he not unwittingly injure her.

    No way can I read that as condescending or demeaning.

    Summersmith @summersmith

    Oh.  Um.  Hello.

    [Nervously fiddles with bow-tie.  Checks notes.]

    I’m Summersmith (Andrew really but Summersmith is a much cooler name). ¬†I like Doctor Who and stuff*. ¬†Long time lurker but since we’re about half-way out of the dark to the next series, I thought I’d say hello.

    [Sits down.  Wipes perspiration from brow]

    *Stuff being mainly Moffat and Joss Weedon and anything else that’s quirky, funny, emotional, and most importantly smart without taking itself too seriously.

    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    @ichabod, whoo-hoo, woop woop (as my twenty-something colleagues say), hi five, etc. Are you doing this freeze-frame? ūüėČ But absolutely compelling stuff.

    @summersmith, lovely name, lovely avatar, you seem like a lovely person. You should fit right in here ūüôā welcome!!

    Summersmith @summersmith

    @barbaralefty Thank-you! The avatar is a Shetland troll (I’ve family up there). ¬†A much better class of person than the internet troll.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    It’s Isaiah 53:5. If you must play Bible Bingo, please try and get the chapter and verse right. ūüėČ

    Anyway, ignoring the verses wrenched so violently out of context that someone should probably inform the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the Gospel, I’d go with @purofilion and @ichabod and say that ‘I’m not your boyfriend’ is the Doctor not-quite-apologising for a fairly massive mistake.

    He’s allowed everyone to think that he’s Clara’s boyfriend. In fact, he’s been thinking of himself as Clara’s boyfriend. He’s been flirting with her like crazy.

    But in this new regeneration one thing that is very, very clear to him is that he’s over 2000 years old (and probably feeling every year of it). He isn’t her boyfriend. He was fooling himself, pretending he was young, having (as the Hurt Doctor said) a mid-life crisis.

    And the only thing that stopped him hurting Clara badly was that she realised he couldn’t be her boyfriend. Not for real.

    It wasn’t her mistake.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip ¬† Yep, he was fooling himself, playing at romance as 11, trying to get away from himself that way. ¬†Yes, he’s way old and knows it — look at that slightly bent-kneed stance and gait, it says “older guy with slightly sprung knees” and also brings Capaldi down closer to Jenna’s height, of course.

    I don’t know that it would occur to him, but the concentration he needs to bend on himself, his own actions and reactions, in the course of getting to know himself again as 12, is *exactly* what nobody should want in a boyfriend (or a girlfriend, for that matter). ¬†A person who is that self-absorbed (however good and necessary the reasons) is pretty much bound to be a poor romantic partner, even if they really love you: there’s only so much prime mental and emotional energy to go round, and the one who loves you doesn’t want to starve you while he/she is dealing with pervasive and sudden change in himself/herself. ¬† If he’s capable of thinking this far out of the box he’s finding himself in, he certainly wouldn’t want her involving herself with his new, chaotic self on the level of romance.

    I like giving Clara the recognition she deserves for “playing along” rather than diving in and dragging him too deep with her in Series 7 (have I got your meaning?).

    Anonymous @

    Yes, @ichabod, I do understand the ¬†“Not your boyfriend” ¬†parts better now. Thanks for sharing. I agree with you. But I never saw Clara as being like the other companions before her. ¬†She seemed to me, ¬†too smart to fall for the Charismatic guy with a time machine. ¬†My impression was that she was not bitchy, All Business, ¬†and yet warm and friendly. ¬†Like my waitress who calls me “Honey,” ¬†It means nothing ¬†flirtatious or romantic. ¬† ¬† Such a pre-emptive strike by CapDoc seemed unnecessary. If I invite you into my home, it is natural for you to gaze around. ¬† I ¬†don’t have it in me to say to you “Don’t get any ideas about stealing my stuff.” ¬† ¬†and then go on with “So, how do you like my house?” ¬†It is similiar to what the doctor did. ¬†It just seems wrong and a slap in the face to be so accusatory. ¬† I felt sorry for her. ¬† But yes I see your point. ¬†It sets the stage for the relationships to come. ¬†Sets boundarys, Nips it in the bud, in case she does get any ¬†ideas. ¬† I also did see that the doctor may be saying it for himself as well. But not right away.

    I have been warm and friendly and outgoing to a few women over the years who mistakenly think ¬†I am flirting. ¬†They show me the ring on their finger and say “I’m Married.” ¬† Ouch. ¬† My thoughts were pure, I got punished. ¬†Or, I am keeping rather quiet, and a woman gets mad because I am not flirting. Ouch. ¬†I have been in Clara’s ¬†shoes.

    @purofilion, Yes, I am on this site. I am as welcome here as anyone else. And yes, ¬†I have made a valuable contribution with something I have noticed that no one else has.¬†As an experienced ¬†Christian for over 40 years and a Jew I know ¬†it is not out of context or poor in anyway.¬†¬†If others have noticed it, it is not posted anywhere on this site. ¬†Others may appreciate what I have said, even if you don’t…Like you, I have no desire to include theology when discussing Dr. Who. ¬†I am not discussing Theology by bringing up Christ and the Bible similarities to Dr. Who. ¬†I am ¬†pointing out something to make you say ¬†“Hmmm.” ¬†and provide food for thought. ¬†And ¬†I do know that “There is nothing new under the sun, ” ¬† only variations on a theme. The writers and original creators of Dr. Who have influences, and those influences show up in what they write. ¬† There is an original Dr. Who, ¬† I have pointed that out in hopes some would appreciate it.

    Puro, I think you are pretty smart. ¬†You’ve already told me some pretty good stuff -behind the scenes – that I am still placing lots of value on and respecting. And which I greatly appreciate. ¬†But I don’t see your name written on this forum anywhere with a rule that say my insights must be only those that are pleasing to you. ¬† Some of the secondary writers for Dr. Who may very well be Jewish, as a large portion of the entertainment industry are, especially in America. ¬†Whoever and whatever they are, Their knowledgeable ¬†influences show up in their writing. ¬†Why do you think ¬†“The Old Rugged Cross” is playing in SO3EO3 “Gridlock.” ¬† ¬†They are discussing Theology in an episode of Dr. Who just as much as I am or Wilfred Mott, Donnas Father, When He says “Praise the Lord.”

    Yes, Puro, I am on this site. If you don’t like it, If you are The All Powerful Purofilion– then email the websites owner and have me removed. Not long ago you were a friend. How quickly you turned. ¬†I was not aware you made and enforced ¬†the rules.


    A female doctor?  As long as they do it good and keep up the good work.


    Mudlark @mudlark

    @DroneX1¬† I am fully in agreement with @purofilion, @barbaralefty and @ichabod¬† here;¬† I do not see how ‘I am not your boyfriend’ can be interpreted¬†as being necessarily dismissive of Clara as a person.¬† My experience, for what little it is worth, was rather the opposite; it was the people¬†who saw me in a romantic light and wanted to be my boyfriend who were¬†often the least likely to ‘see me’ and understand the person I was.¬†As @ichabod¬†explains so eloquently, when the Doctor says this to¬†Clara¬†he is in the first stages of examining and deciding who and what he is, post regeneration.¬† He subsequently goes on to demonstrate how much he values and respects her by repeatedly entrusting her to come up with solutions to problems and, in Kill the Moon, to make crucially important decisions.

    @ichabod¬†¬† I wouldn’t have described Smith¬†Doctor as ‘flirty’ exactly, though he was certainly touchy-feely.¬† Tennant Doctor flirted outrageously, though his relationship with Rose had a more solid basis.¬† I saw this, together with his hyperactivity and mood swings, as a coping mechanism; a way of distracting himself from the oppressive sense of guilt.¬† Smith Doctor inherited the same hyperactivity, but in his relationships with human people,¬†what he displayed seemed more in the nature of a¬†puppyish¬†longing to please and fit in, hampered by an almost total blindness to social cues.¬† As for flirting, in his dealings with¬†River it was she who made all the running; even when he married her, it was initially¬†as a rather drastic means of forcing her to undo the damage she had done.¬† For him, I think, Clara was¬†someone toward whom he felt¬† enormous gratitude, and also a puzzle to be solved; someone with whom he had a very strong bond of affection but¬†who was not a¬†‘girlfriend’ (he was married, after all!).¬† Which is not to say that in his social ineptitude he may not sometimes have¬†given out the wrong signals.

    @summersmith  Welcome!  A Shetland troll Рthe very best kind.  I had two friends at university who were from Shetland.

    Is your name by any chance a sideways nod to Terry Pratchett?








    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish help!

    I’m doing my best with @DroneX1 and he’s gone all nuts on me (yeesss you haaaave )

    as “for behind the scenes”, man, you personal messaged me first!

    I was being respectful but relatively distant -so don’t have some personal issue with me. I’ve said nothing that the others on this site haven’t already said.

    I have nothing against Christians and Jews. Goodness. Where is this nonsense coming from:. “If you don‚Äôt like it, If you are The All Powerful Purofilion‚Äď then email the websites owner and have me removed. Not long ago you were a friend. How quickly you turned.

    I just responded to some messages: that’s it mate. Nothing more.


    Anonymous @

    “I seemed to have noticed something others may never notice‚ÄĚ

    Eerm, you‚Äôre on this site?”


    no, my saying you are on this site was misinterpreted by you: I meant very clearly to connect what you said to that statement at top of post. I wasn’t suggesting you shouldn’t be here. Why on earth would I say something so absurd?

    I’m so tired of explaining myself to people when it’s so easy. “I seemed to have noticed something others may never notice” That’s the explicit issue I was discussing and I wasn’t being difficult or rude: hence the “eerm”. I meant if you are on this site, then you will see that others will notice things or ‘it’ too. You will not be the only one who notices things. Again, I say, goodness!

    Let’s not get out of hand, please, this is unnecessary ‘mean’ talk . It doesn’t belong here.

    Kindest and sincerely (really), puro.

    Anonymous @

    Anyway, back to sanity. @mudlark hello! Yes I agree – those who tend to want ‘something’ are not really interested in ‘seeing you’ as you are. I find they create a person out of you (as it were) that doesn’t exist at all and that can be quite upsetting. As we age, a friend is a remarkable, treasured thing. To be the Doctor’s friend, is even more remarkable. To become a friend, takes work – and I think Clara and the Doctor have earned that treasured space.

    @ichabod hello yep, you said it all. As I believed I tried to originally state to our friend¬†@Dronex1 with some ‘bleeps’ in the transmission which has been dealt with: happily I think.

    @bluesqueakpip indeed Isa: 53: 5  I spent years teaching seminary. Some bible verses are not easy to forget -that one in particular which has been treated to significant re-interpretation over the years

    “inform the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to the Gospel” Hey! How come you didn’t get into any trouble?? It’s like The West Wing’s Toby and Sam -Sam doesn’t get into trouble in the Big Block of Cheese Day! I got the meanie post!

    So back to that other discussion, Ichi; about Clara and Rose: in re-watching Fear Her (which I now know was absolutely canned), I can see Rose starting to solve the problem herself, so perhaps my original hypothesis about the Doctor not really having a companion (until Clara) who can truly sort out the problem on her own, is a wonky one! @barbaralefty might agree? Did you like Fear Her? With the scribble creatures made of graphite?

    It certainly gave women quite a role, didn’t it?: the mum of the little girl, Chloe (marvellous actor), Rose and the elderly lady who first explained what had happened in that ‘very ordinary street’. The others seemed to be quite helpless and hopeless. But I enjoyed the episode, I must admit -a fresh eye on it tends to help.

    @summersmith Hello to you and I’ll echo the welcome of others. A lovely picture you’ve got there! Shetland. Very beautiful, though being in Oz, I’ve only been once. I saw your post on the memories page. Thank you for that and enjoy the boards.


    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @dronexi –There are certainly ways to bring to discuss theology in the context of Who — although I’d bear in mind that RTD is avowedly atheist and SM from what I can gather veers towards agnostic/atheist. And certainly @bluesqueakpip is far better qualified than I to engage you on this topic. However, there are ways to broach such subjects and I’d say that the way you’re bringing them in is almost entirely the wrong one,¬†being unnecessarily confrontational and clearly making some members uncomfortable.

    Speaking of which, yes, you are welcome on the site, provided you can manage to remain civil towards all its members. Do please behave.

    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish thank you

    Quite right regarding the avowed agnosticism ¬†of¬† Moffat -I wish I could my hands on an article that I saw in an American periodical which discussed the variety of TV shows which seemed to act as a discussion base for particular religious groups -and that’s totally fine – but they had the writers involved in a kind of panel or Q and A which had them defending their own particular religious position which happened to be, mostly, atheist. The only writer (and it was¬†sci -fi-antasy)¬† who was quite different was Stephanie Myer of Twilight fame and who is a member of the Latter Day Saint ‘forum’ -rather than cult, which it most certainly is not.

    This was a solid two years ago and I’ve no idea how to go looking for it -but it may pop up again in the meantime.

    I suppose whether it’s a religions discussion or not -then it ends up being part of the odd; interesting and ‘bonkers’ theories which ensures an ongoing dialogue for¬†the series. Even a religious dialogue can be a meaningful one when relevant but it does behove (is that an arcane word?) people of a religions persuasion to enter into any discussion step toeing around others’ private sensibilities.

    I’ve often found people who are¬†religious, and quite ‘loud’ about it, ¬†to be¬†exacting in their expectations of others, sometimes angry when not noticed immediately¬†-these statements: “I know what others do not,” tend to be thoroughly anti-progressive, a tad inflammatory¬†and yet we’ve members¬†who may teach seminary (as I once did many moons ago!) and¬† who approach¬† ‘intimate’ personal discussions with a kind of ‘gently gently’ manner perhaps keeping that element private, to a degree?

    It can be a testy issue, that’s for sure. Nonetheless, it can act as a springboard to yet other thoroughly intriguing positions.

    Kindest,  puro.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @DroneX1 ¬†— Glad to help clarify, but “pre-emptive strike”, “slap in the face”, “accusatory”? ¬†Not according to what I saw, but I’m glad to have your input, particularly on the issue of signals of friendliness being mistaken for flirty come-ons; we do live in a hyper-sexualized society (US, anyway), which makes it difficult to actually reach understanding of other kinds of warmth towards others — affection, support, loyalty, passionate caring but without a sexual vibe or goal, etc. ¬†As for Series 7 Clara, she was so “empty” as a character for me that I just assumed that she *did* fall for the distinguished older gent with the fancy wheels, though he never followed through. ¬†But I only saw part of Series 7, being put off by SmithDoc’s whirling dervish style.

    I’ve seen some references to Jesus/Doctor; I can see how resonances between the two could be sparked by some of the things you mention — but I don’t think any of it is intentional. ¬†Nobody central to the show seems to be Christian-oriented (or any other way, for that matter), so that would be a hard sell. ¬†Certainly there was that weird bit with the Jesus/Doc around the death of the Simm-Master, but I’ve only seen a clip of and shied off. ¬†Jewish myself, on my mother’s side, very unobservant; probably Catholic on my Dad’s, but he was an emphatic¬†atheist. ¬†Which is maybe why I’ve done so much rummaging around in informal religious “studies” since. ¬†I can’t map the Biblical Jesus onto the Doctor, though; no miracles, no dozen disciples, no claims of authority from on high, etc. ¬†Still, if it floats your boat . . . the question around here would be, how wedded are you to arguing a position that others here find unconvincing? ¬†Can you move on to other aspects of the show when others are ready to do that, and shift without rancor? ¬†If not, I don’t think you’ll be happy here.

    @bluesqueakpip ¬† Up the women! ¬†Yes! ¬†I have colleagues who dismiss DW for its “rampant sexism”, which I consider much less horribly sexist sexism that I see on most tv series, so I just go on liking what I like because I’ve been where they are — which now seems to me to be supersensitive. ¬†But I am very aware of the perils of seeing a self-comforting imaginary construct that validates one’s own desires and opinions, instead of the living person in front of me (isn’t all racism based on this? ¬†All stereotyping?).

    Anonymous @

    @wibblywobbly did you enjoy The Doctor’s Wife? And if you’re new, welcome to the boards.


    WibblyWobbly @wibblywobbly

    I am new to the forums, thank you for the welcome! It’s one of my favorite episodes. Felt so much like the season finale to me!

    Anonymous @

    @wibblywobbly I think that series is marvellous. I really do: it ties into itself so well that it causes a bit of a teary eye whenever I watch part of that again.

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