The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special

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  • #12618
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb – I’m with you on the ‘hunhh?’ factor for Tennant in the 50th.  But I’ve also commented on my confusion about Billie being there as well.  I really, truly, hope that it wasn’t simply about which actors were available.  There had better be a darned good reason for 10 and Rose!

    #12619
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @scaryb    Doctor 2.5? You mean between Troughton regenerating and Pertwee landing on Earth?

     

    #12620
    Whisht @whisht

    ah but @scaryb – Smith is now in his scar, so can visit 10 and Rose (in a sort of scar-as-convoluted-tube-network of places he’s visited).
    Smith can get off at any time (just as Clara can/ did) – he hasn’t met 10 until he goes into the scar and travels along it to visit 10.

    btw @htpbdet – my earlier reply to you is now the last post on the previous page in case you missed it!

    #12621
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    @scaryb I guess that’s the fun in guessing.

    I am also with you on the fact that Clara’s full story hasn’t been exposed yet. There could be any number of reasons for this and I think the main one is the possibility that she is 12 however far fetched at sounds but I don’t know lol

    Like I said before I keep going to one theory to the other Ahh! Hurry up November

    #12623
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @scaryb   @Shazzbot

    Tennant being there is no issue in this timey-wimey world.

    It was never a consideration in any of Three, Five or Two Doctors.

    I have always regarded it as an anomaly: the event happens to the latest Doctor and, as it does, and the earlier Doctors cross their timelines, time is rewritten. And when they go back, the earlier Doctors have their memories erased.

    Mind you, in those days, each encounter involved the Time Lords.

    These days, I think we will just have to assume that whatever happens with Tennant now (if he is appearing as the Tenth Doctor and not the alternative Universe Mr Rose) will result in an aborted timeline – the real timeline will continue with Smith’s Dr.

    I think….

     

    🙂

     

     

    #12624
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    The reason I wanted to differentiate between memories and ‘physical’ tunnels and physical echoes, is that its easy to conflate the block the Cybercontroller found in Smith’s memories (Smith knows of HurtDoc but blocks off that memory through disgust/disappointment), with the ‘physicality’ of HurtDoc simply being in the “scar” (for whatever reason).
    If he was hidden in the scar, it was more like he was hidden in a maze, rather than blocked off in a mind.

     
    @whisht  @scaryb
     
    The block the Cybercontroller encountered was placed there by the Doctor to stop the Cybercontroller from getting too far into the Doctor’s mind.
     
    The Cybercontroller had already discovered the existence of Clara and then the Doctor erected the mindblock, only allowing the Cybercontroller to the memories he chose.
     
    Isn’t that correct?
     
     
    Do you think the block in Nightmare in Silver was about Hurt?

    #12625
    Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013

    In an answer to your last question @htpbdet I don’t believe the block was about hurt it was definately about Clara. The reason? The doctor hadn’t at this point got all e information on Clara or worked out who she is and what she was meant to do. For some reason he didn’t want the cyberplanner to have access because he might of been able to figure her out or use her against him

    #12626
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Shazzbot – re needing a damned good reason for Tennant and Rose – David Tennant – what better reason do you need??!!! 😆 (Sorry, flippant answer to a good point; I do believe they’ll be in there for reasons beyond just being available – we have no idea how much they’ll be in it though – could just be for a couple of minutes)

    @htpbdet  Dr 2.5 – yes, between Troughton and Pertwee, though I do tend more towards an AG solution.

    @whisht Smith in his scar – re visiting Rose and 10 – definitely possible, but I keep going back to the scar collapsing in on itself – it’s not stable and Smith and Clara need to get out fast – unless, see point above about Tennant’s scenes being short. Maybe he just shows them the way out.

    #12628
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @htpbdet The mind block in NiS – it could have been put up by the Dr, but the scene doesn’t really play like that. The cyberplanner is feeling confident, thinking he’s only to get control of another 2%(approx) of the Dr’s mind to get him completely under control. He teases the Dr about his obsession with Clara – she’s prominent in his thoughts – but then comes across the mindblock.  If it was put up by the Dr that suggests he knows Clara’s secret, which, as far as we know, at this point he doesn’t.  Although, if the mindblock is working properly, that explains why Eleven doesn’t know who Clara is – because he’s put a block in his own mind.  But why would he do that, in advance of meeting the cyberplanner, and what other secrets has he blocked out? (eg Hurt Dr, because the cyberplanner doesn’t detect him)

    Or maybe the Dr is just more in control in NiS than he lets on.

     

    #12629
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @scaryb

    Really?

    It just seemed to me that the Doctor was taking control of his mind – he didn’t want the Cybercontroller anywhere in his mind except where he was prepared to allow him.

    I never thought it was especially about Clara.

    Mainly, I suppose, because the Doctor was so unsure what or who she was.

    #12630
    Whisht @whisht

    ah @scaryb and @htpbdet – I think this is the thing I’m trying to get at (really really sorry I’m not being clear – memo to self: stop being tired! 🙂 )

    The scar itself is at least one of the things that the Doctor needs to hide.
    It is a unique anomaly – only he has travelled through time and space as much, so his scar is far greater than other Timelords. Any TL scar gives access to the times and space that a TL visited (until the scar heals).
    The Doctor’s scar just offers so many more times and space to travel between and interfere with. Crucial points in time and space too.

    So, of all TL’s scars/ tombs, his is one that really must be hidden.

    Now, that doesn’t mean that he isn’t also blocking off knowledge of Clara (who he is clearly fixating on in NiS) from the Controller, simply to keep her safe (which to be honest is all I thought at the time – my bonkers stuff is purely outside of actually watching where I’m along for the ride!)

    #12633
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @whisht

    Hmmm…

    There aren’t any other Time Lord tombs are there? There is the Tomb of Rassilon and the Matrix – but that’s it (as far as we know anyway – I think).

    The scar, surely, only occurs after the Doctor has died?

    I assumed, probably wrongly, that the Doctor, mortally wounded, fled to Trenzalore to die in the TARDIS, knowing it would become his tomb. When he died, the time tunnel creates itself because there is no Matrix now into which his memories can be uploaded. The TARDIS protects it for a long time, but eventually the TARDIS itself dies and there we are.

    I can’t see how Smith could know about the tomb before the events in Name of the Doctor. I don’t see how it could be something he was hiding from the Cybercontroller.

    The scar is sealed unless you know the Doctor’s real name – so it is pretty safe. Except for River…

     

    #12635
    Coffeemonster @coffeemonster

    @whisht I like this idea of the timestream of the doctor being some kind of

    scar-as-convoluted-tube-network of places he’s visited

    The Hurt doctor entering, the eleventh leaving to visit his past self… Makes you want a timestream for yourself to visit some old nice memories (though I wouldn’t want to take the wrong direction by mistake and visiting some future memories).

    @Shazzbot and @scaryb I’m totally with you on not understanding why Tennant and Rose would be part of the anniversary special. That is, if it’s really about the timewar. Though I think I remember reading a theory somewhere here that the Hurt doctor is the doctor between Tennant and Smith. (Probably one of those theories that are lying discarded behind the sofa) That wouldn’t explain Rose, but it would explain Tennant. I wouldn’t want to discard this theory, because we know the human tenth doctor as “the doctor that committed genocide”. And I thought that Hurt looked a bit like an aged Tennant from the back (because of the ears).

    #12639
    ScaryB @scaryb

    HTPBDET

    Agreed – very few Time Lord tombs as far as we know. This situation is very unusual. It’s also unusual in that the Dr has timetravelled so much more than anyone else, ever.  The scar would seem to be in place of a body (Smith says something along those lines) – and like a body, it decays and fades away over time.

    I assumed, probably wrongly, that the Doctor, mortally wounded, fled to Trenzalore to die in the TARDIS,

    Did they not say in NotD that he had died at Trenzalore (following a “minor skirmish” as the GI puts it)?  Why did he not regenerate?

    There are a lot of things in that episode that suggest that Smith is the last Dr.  But maybe as @bluesqueakpip has suggested it’s just the end of a cycle, not a full stop. (which also feeds into the various phoenix/Isis references, resonancies and theories).

    re the mindblock – I think it’s certainly open to interpretation as to whether it’s been put in place  by the Dr or if it’s been imposed on him by someone else

    #12640
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @scaryb

    It was a minor skirmish, by the Doctor’s blood-soaked standards. Not exactly the Time War, but enough to finish him. In the end, it was too much for the old man.

    It is ambiguous – as ever with Moffat.

    And, honestly, given that the location of his tomb was meant to be a secret to the Universe, isn’t it unlikely that he died on Trenzalore after a skirmish? More likely that he gets finished off, can’t regenerate because his cycle is over, and so gets in the TARDIS to find a place to die in the shadows.

    No?

     

    #12651
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @htpbdet– re: 11th- his first episode was the eleventh hour, much later we had him say ‘how much trouble? on a scale of one to ten? eleven’ but I don’t think he ever said he was ‘eleven’. and that last comment in particular could refer to a predecessor…

    the idea of the doctor suppressing his memories is heavily featured in NIS. But once the Doctor is dead? Who could do it then? The Tardis? in whom the track of tears are located, who is still alive enough to cause disorientation for Clara- and was that on purpose, to make sure she made the jump?

    Clara’s ‘so that’s who’ when reading the book is interesting. Probably not the doctor- that was in a ‘tiny corner’. and not herself, because she still didn’t know between that and the time re-set. ‘So that’s who River Song is’?  I TNOTD, she mentioned that she had heard of River Song, just hadn’t thought she was a woman. Maybe she found out the who here, but forgot? I

    #12652
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @miapatrick

    the idea of the doctor suppressing his memories is heavily featured in NIS. But once the Doctor is dead? Who could do it then? 

    I think the question is more why would the Doctor’s memories need to be suppressed when he was dead?

    I still think the “that’s who” comment from Clara while she leafed through the History of the Time War refers to River but that all she saw was a photo with the caption “River” – and she was recognising the woman from the shop who gave her the Doctor’s telephone number in Bells.

    This ties in with her not knowing that Professor Song was a woman.

     

    #12656
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    The Eleventh makes a lot of ‘eleven’ jokes.

    One planet has an eleven hour day, later he’s eleven hundred and three, he uses an eleventh dimensional matrix, he visits eleventh century Coventry, he rewires Apollo Eleven. There’s probably others.

    And ‘eleven’ is referenced a lot in the scripts. Didn’t Rory enter the Cyber Space Station on level Eleven? And in Hide the time the episode starts is 11:04. 

    The Doctor doesn’t specifically refer to himself as Eleven (except through the jokes), but the visual recaps of regenerations only ever include the ‘official’ ones. He’s the Eleventh Doctor; the various jokes and references to ‘eleven’ have kept that number quite firmly in the consciousness of the audience. Which is one of the things that would make me suspect that this incarnation isn’t really ‘the Eleventh Doctor’ (and Hurt is probably the real Ninth) – there is no other incarnation in which the incarnation-number has been so frequently referenced. Eleven’s number is important.

    Of course, if the [insert ominous sounding name here] incarnation of the Doctor is number Thirteen, it’s very important. Because if the Eleventh Doctor is really the twelfth body of the Person Generally Called The Doctor, Incarnation Number Thirteen has just become the next Doctor. The one after Matt Smith.

    #12657
    FishComBobulated @fishcombobulated

    @htpbdet

    The impression that I received when Clara read the book and said “that’s who” was that the experience got erased due to temporal paradox. In the finale she remembered, and the Doctor remarked with some fear that her remembering was “impossible” (of course, but she’s the Impossible Girl, right?). My impression is still such that she remembers, but only in a cliffhangar manner. What she learned from the Book is still quite important and holds future portent that I suspect will be learned in the next two episodes (So by Dec 25).

    As far as your wonderful theorizing and DT: purely from an acting standpoint, like no other actor, David Tennant in his performance embodied the guilt and the pathos carried by The Doctor for his “crimes against the living universe” (two genocides and a series of universe-devouring reality rifts are the minimum of the charges levied by himself alone). Because we all tend to agree the Anniversary will likely address Time War-era Doctor, more or less, it makes the purest of casting sense to include Tennant. Tennant alongside Smith create a dream team cast. With their acting chops, audiences around the planet will cry, millions in unison, sheerly by the force of performance craft and story fused. Tennant and Smith as the post-war Doctors, facing the anguish of their collective sins against life and the universe itself.

    On that note, does anyone know if other countries are also playing this in the theatres on airing. I know people who run a movie theater here with a 3D projector but have no clue who at the BBC to contact to male the screening happen. Please PM me if you do. There are hundreds in this city alone who want to see it on the big screen in 3D in a crowd.

    #12659
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    Of course, if the [insert ominous sounding name here] incarnation of the Doctor is number Thirteen, it’s very important. Because if the Eleventh Doctor is really the twelfth body of the Person Generally Called The Doctor, Incarnation Number Thirteen has just become the next Doctor. The one after Matt Smith.

    Yes @bluesqueakpip

    And it is this, more than perhaps anything else, that inclines me to the view that Hurt is the 13th – the thing that he did in the name of peace and sanity might be his appearance at the Doctor’s trial? It certainly wasn’t in the name of the Doctor…

    Having Hurt as the 13th allows Moffat a chance to lay to rest all canon issues with regeneration – the trinity of past, present and future Doctors can combine to forge a new future, or at least establish a new platform for the future.

    I just wonder if that is a chance he can resist? Or should?

    #12660
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    The impression that I received when Clara read the book and said “that’s who” was that the experience got erased due to temporal paradox.

    Sorry @FishComBomBulated – do you mean it was erased as she read it? or erased when the Doctor reset things at the end of Journey?

    What does she remember in the finale that causes the Doctor some fear?

    I thought as they approached the dying TARDIS tomb some leaking energy revived her memories or re-instated them, but only partially. It did not seem to me that all of her memories were restored. Do you think they were?

    I am probably wrong and in the minority, but I am not at all sure that the Anniversary Special will deal with the Time War. It just seems to obvious to me – and too prone to disaster.

    #12661
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet – if Hurt isn’t a ‘hidden’ past Doctor, how can he be the Thirteenth? Firstly, we’ve not yet had Twelve – so it’s going to confuse the heck out of the audience. We’re trying to avert the Thirteenth incarnation, but we’re not at the thirteenth incarnation, the thirteenth incarnation won’t be a problem until the next Doctor regenerates – unless Twelve has a major part in the 50th Anniversary Special.

    Plus, we may well have already seen Thirteen’s appearance, and John Hurt isn’t Michael Jayston. Michael Jayston, in fact, was probably available.

    Having Hurt as a hidden Doctor allows Moffat to bump Eleven up to Twelve, and deal with the tricky problem that we may have already seen the Thirteenth Doctor. If he doesn’t deal with it, he’s leaving it as a big problem for the next producer; firstly that the regenerations are known to go up to twelve or thirteen only, secondly that the Thirteenth incarnation of the Doctor is some kind of weird amalgam of all his dark tendencies – or all his dark tendencies come into reality or something. I’m not quite sure – frankly I’d given up on Colin Baker by then. 🙂

    So in answer to your ‘should he resist the chance’, I’d say ‘No. He shouldn’t’. If he does, he’s leaving the next producer a giant albatross. Whatever ideas that producer may have, first of all they’ll have to clear the decks for the regeneration, secondly they’ll need to tackle the Thirteen problem. Only then will they be able to do the stories they want to do.

    But make Hurt a ‘hidden’ Doctor, the real Ninth – and then you’ve got a story arc about averting the future. Matt Smith’s Doctor (now Twelve) has two choices. Become this terrifying Doctor, the person so terrible that wars have been fought against him – or change his time-stream by refusing to regenerate.

    We have two big clues from Trenzalore that his decision has already been made. Firstly, the Doctor’s time-track is firmly described as his past and his future. Yet, when we get inside it, the only people we see are his eleven known incarnations, John Hurt’s Doctor, and Clara. Even if John Hurt is a future Doctor, we’re not up to Thirteen. Unless Clara is a Doctor, we’ve got twelve Doctors inside that time-track. There are no others. Most importantly, there’s no Michael Jayston-Doctor.

    Secondly, the battle at Trenzalore is ‘a minor skirmish’. Doctors don’t die from minor skirmishes. They regenerate. Except this time, the Doctor seems to have chosen to die. He doesn’t want to die; the Smith Doctor has tried every trick in the book to avoid dying – but it seems he’d rather die than regenerate.

    Oh, and another little clue, this one from Time of Angels. The Doctor uses some of his regeneration energy to heal River’s wrist – and she yells at him for wasting it. But if he’s already decided he’s not going to regenerate – then of course he can use that energy for a minor injury. He’s not going to need it. And of course River yells at him – she knows what it means that he is willing to ‘waste’ it.

    #12662
    ScaryB @scaryb

    FishComBobulated Sorry, but I disagree with you that Tennant and Smith are perfect “Time war damaged” Drs.  The obvious pairing for that would be Eccleston and Smith (and this from someone for whom Tennant is THE AG Dr). Eccleston is the one closest to the deeds in the Time War – do we know what caused his initial regeneration?

    @htpbdet Agree with your reading re Clara’s memories – she lost the ones in JttCotT, but some of them came back in NotD due to the Tardis “leaking dimensionality”.  That’s not to say the others won’t pop up later – she is now officially a walking multiple paradox.  (And thanks for looking out the BBC charter link for the other thread).

    @bluesqueakpip LOLed at your comment about having given up on C Baker – if anything his Dr is closest to being the personality of the 13th!  What if it isn’t Smith whose grave is at Trenzalore – what if it’s HurtDr? Did he refuse to regenerate, to continue the work of the Dr? If he’s the one after Smith ie 12, maybe to avoid becoming no 13?

    I’m still wondering if they’ll pull a sneaky and Hurt really IS the next Dr, even just for series 8.

    😀

    #12663
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    I’m still wondering if they’ll pull a sneaky and Hurt really IS the next Dr, even just for series 8.

    @scaryb – now for that, I’d even push forward my cherished dream of a woman Doctor to the next regeneration 😀

    Alas, whatever the Hurt Doctor did that wasn’t in The Name of the Doctor (title drop), I doubt it was anything as noble as dying to stop yourself becoming a true monster.

    #12666
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    Although I’m still sticking with Hurt as potential 12th Doc (so we get to see past, present and future all on screen together), here’s a little bonkers theory that crossed my mind…

    Doctor 10 and Rose are involved in a previously unseen adventure which (possibly thanks to the GI) results in the shock death of the Doctor, who then regenerates into Doctor 11.1 – the Hurt Doctor.  The newly regenerated Doctor finds himself caught between having to allow the death of Rose (the companion who brought him back to himself post Time War) or walking away.  Rather than finding a third way, he accepts the situation, walks away and disconnects from the universe by finding his own grave and walking into the timeline – all the good things Doc 10 and 11 would have gone on to do remain undone.

    Clara and Doctor 11.2 (the Smith Doctor) having met the Hurt Doctor in the timeline, manage to restore the original timeline.  Doctor 10 goes on to lose Rose but gets to meet Martha, Donna, stop the Master, Davros and the TimeLords and eventually in saving Wilf, regenerates into Doctor 11.2 – the Smith Doctor.

    The Hurt Doctor, existed only in a closed timeline and never was.  Doctor 11.2 can recall him in the same way that Clara’s memories from the closed loop in JTTCOTT were leaking back, a part of his history that he never experienced.  11.1 gets a moment of redemption and then coalesces with 11.2 as they regenerate into a new Doctor.

    This can then be used as precedent for how the Valeyard could have existed ‘between the 12th and final incarnations’ without ever having to show the Valeyard on screen.  The merging of multiple forms of the same incarnation possibly screws up the regeneration limit.  The audience get an early warning that regeneration can bring about very different kinds of Doctors by seeing the a different version of the history they’ve known for the past 6 years.  And Moffat gets to play with another of his timey-wimey loops of doom 🙂

    #12670
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

     in the same way that Clara’s memories from the closed loop in JTTCOTT were leaking back

    Clara’s memories included stuff we never saw on screen.

    My only problem with Ten dying when he shouldn’t is that they’ve already done that – Turn Left. 

    #12671
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip

    (Thanks for this – its fun!)
     
    If Hurt isn’t a ‘hidden’ past Doctor, how can he be the Thirteenth? Firstly, we’ve not yet had Twelve – so it’s going to confuse the heck out of the audience. We’re trying to avert the Thirteenth incarnation, but we’re not at the thirteenth incarnation, the thirteenth incarnation won’t be a problem until the next Doctor regenerates – unless Twelve has a major part in the 50th Anniversary Special.
    Plus, we may well have already seen Thirteen’s appearance, and John Hurt isn’t Michael Jayston. Michael Jayston, in fact, was probably available.
    I don’t follow. If the audience can understand an unexpected former Doctor, why could they not understand an unexpected future Doctor?
    Why are we “trying to avert the Thirteenth incarnation”? Do you seriously think Moffat cares about the 12 regeneration rule? I don’t.
    The Valeyard is not the Twelfth or Thirteenth Doctor – he is something in between. In Ultimate Foe, the Master said:
    The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation. And I may say, you do not improve with age….the distillation of all that’s evil in you, untainted by virtue, a composite of your every dark thought
    So, the Valeyard was akin to the Watcher from Logopolis and Cho-Je from Planet of the Spiders – a projection of the Doctor’s darker sides. But, what he was not, was either the 12th or 13th regeneration.
    Hurt is there, in the track of tears. He can be either from the Doctor’s past or his future: if he is the Valeyard he can be both. There is no reason why the Valeyard could not change form either.
    If he doesn’t deal with it, he’s leaving it as a big problem for the next producer; firstly that the regenerations are known to go up to twelve or thirteen only
    I do not think that Moffat considers himself bound by the 12 regeneration rule. If time can be re-written, rules can be broken. We have already seen the Master receive a new cycle of regenerations.  All it takes is a good idea.
    So in answer to your ‘should he resist the chance’, I’d say ‘No. He shouldn’t’. If he does, he’s leaving the next producer a giant albatross. Whatever ideas that producer may have, first of all they’ll have to clear the decks for the regeneration, secondly they’ll need to tackle the Thirteen problem. Only then will they be able to do the stories they want to do.
    Sorry, that is, with respect, nonsense. The actual makers of the programme don’t give a toss about Canon or Continuity. Right now, I can’t think of an instance in AG Doctor Who where the 12 regeneration limit has been embraced.  We know about it – but does the ordinary viewer who started with or after Rose? And, in any event, I prefer, and always have, Troughton’s “live forever, barring accidents” approach.
    But make Hurt a ‘hidden’ Doctor, the real Ninth – and then you’ve got a story arc about averting the future. Matt Smith’s Doctor (now Twelve) has two choices. Become this terrifying Doctor, the person so terrible that wars have been fought against him – or change his time-stream by refusing to regenerate.
    Hold on – Smith’s Doctor is that “terrifying Doctor” – Kovarian and the Silence waged their war against him. The Daleks pursued the Hartnell Doctor in The Chase – that was a war.
    We have two big clues from Trenzalore that his decision has already been made. Firstly, the Doctor’s time-track is firmly described as his past and his future. Yet, when we get inside it, the only people we see are his eleven known incarnations, John Hurt’s Doctor, and Clara.
    I do not see anything at all which supports the notion that Smith’s Doctor has decided not to regenerate.
    Actually, when you get inside the track of tears do you see McGann or Tennant? There is a very brief Eccleston, but I do not remember seeing Tennant.
    But the real question here is this – which Doctor’s tomb is this? Because it is not likely to be Smith’s.
    The Doctor has died and he is “buried” at Trenzalore. That is the premise of The Name of the Doctor. So the tomb must be the tomb of a later Doctor or Smith later in his time.
    Why shouldn’t the tomb be the tomb of the final incarnation? The tomb of the Doctor who just gives up, the one who has had enough? Isn’t that the most likely explanation?
    You say “Doctors don’t die from minor skirmishes, they regenerate”, but is that right? River dies for the 10th because she says he would not regenerate if he was in her place. Pertwee may never have regenerated without the help of Cho-Je’s “little push”.  Davison is unsure that he will regenerate after the harrowing  experience he endured in Caves of Androzani. Other Time Lords have died permanently – see Deadly Assassin. Regeneration may not be a certainty – and especially if the TARDIS is dying.
    Oh, and another little clue, this one from Time of Angels. The Doctor uses some of his regeneration energy to heal River’s wrist – and she yells at him for wasting it. But if he’s already decided he’s not going to regenerate – then of course he can use that energy for a minor injury. He’s not going to need it. And of course River yells at him – she knows what it means that he is willing to ‘waste’ it.

    That’s Angels Take Manhattan, but I don’t think that shows that the Doctor has decided not to regenerate. It just shows he cares for River. Surely?

    And, speaking of River, when she meets Tennant she makes it clear she has seen more than one other regeneration and the implication is that they are AG Doctors – so, Doctors beyond Smith.

    Sorry – but I don’t see the 12 regeneration rule as being any impediment to Moffat and whatever story he wants to tell. 🙂

    @scaryb

    Agree, agree, agree. Are we twins?

     

    #12673
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @osakahatter

    I have to say I rather suspect that your wild theory will not be too far from the actual mark.

    It won’t happen like that I suspect – but I will not be surprised at all if there is an aborted timeline and a fusion of versions of the Doctor to create a new whole with a new future.

     

    #12674
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @whisht

    Smith can get off at any time (just as Clara can/ did) – he hasn’t met 10 until he goes into the scar and travels along it to visit 10.

    I wonder…

    The versions of Clara we saw in Asylum and Snowmen were not “whole” in the sense that her memories of her experiences since meeting the Doctor and how she came to be where she was were gone.

    So, why would we think the Doctor could easily leave the track of tears?

    Sorry – have too much idle time on my hands…

    🙂

    #12675
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    @Wisht @htpbdet

    The versions of Clara we saw in Asylum and Snowmen were not “whole” in the sense that her memories of her experiences since meeting the Doctor and how she came to be where she was were gone.

    Do you think?  I took it from the flashbacks in NoTD that Clara commentated on that she did remember the Doctor, hence the ‘It’s smaller on the outside’ reaction to the TARDIS in The Snowmen.  But then, it appears in each of those cases the Claricle has lived a full life wherever she has been shattered to while Clara Prime has remained in the track of tears? Not sure, need to rewatch – certainly I got the impression that her original self hasn’t been able to/didn’t know how to leave.

    #12676
    Whisht @whisht

    @htpbdet – btw its just great to be chatting with you! So glad you’re recuperating (you are taking it an hour a day here aren’t you?!?)

    🙂

    You’re making me think quite hard about this!

    And you’re quite right. Once out of the track, no memories (in the Claras we’ve seen).

    hmm….. well, this couldn’t possibly be a plot hole, so [ahem] let me think a bit….

    (is there an emoticon for ‘oh bugger’?)

    #12677
    Whisht @whisht

    yep @osakahatter – while in the track she has memories, but once scattered she enters the particular timeline as a baby (and really, the whole plot device shatters before our eyes, as she’d have to be in the track, see the GI defeating the Doctor, go back 26 years to somewhere that will allow her unexisting life to exist and miraculously appear at the right time and know what to do to defeat the GI (an incredibly powerful being).

    But, that’d be as daft as painting “duck” on a wall and making that work for people years later to avoid a thrown object.

    oh.

    :¬ ‘

    #12680
    OsakaHatter @osakahatter

    But, that’d be as daft as painting “duck” on a wall and making that work for people years later to avoid a thrown object.

    You mean that’s not plausible?! Damnit,  I’d been doing exactly that on my walls before I put the wallpaper up.  You know, just in case 😉

    #12681
    Whisht @whisht

    no worries @osakahatter, all you have to do now is lurk outside your house until its redecorated and wait until someone strips the wallpaper, reads the message and then lob the rock in.

    And if they don’t duck, well, you can’t say they weren’t warned!

    .

    .

    (warning: you may be quite old by the time you throw the rock)

    #12683
    Whisht @whisht

    btw all this talk of the “false 9” is making me think of football.

    Will the next Doctor be Cazorla??!?!?

    :¬)

    #12684
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @whisht

    I am fortunate that there is a lovely Nurse here (Jennifer)  and she lets me split up my hour across the day – and she lets me stay logged on for long periods so that my visitors can have a peek for me.

    Debating these topics is the highlight of my day – so thanks!

    And you made me laugh out loud with your wallpaper comments…

    🙂

    #12685
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @htpbdet

     Do you seriously think Moffat cares about the 12 regeneration rule? I don’t.

    Care? No. Have a good script idea about it? Quite possibly. The 12 regeneration rule is a script opportunity. He may have already quietly shoved it several regenerations into the future with Let’s Kill Hitler (when River gives the Doctor her regenerations).

    The Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature

    In the TV version. The novelisation describes him as the penultimate reincarnation, the one between regenerations twelve and thirteen. The AG Moffat-helmed series has consistently had a succession of people absolutely terrified of the Doctor.

    There was a goblin, or a… trickster. Or a warrior. A nameless, terrible thing, soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it, or… reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world.

    So before the Time War, the Valeyard is a figure like the Watcher. After the Time War? Smith’s Doctor is dangerous; Smith’s Doctor is scary, Smith’s Doctor is a bloomin’ psychopath. But he’s not half as genocidal as Ten was.

    What do both Madame Kovarian and the Silence try to do? They try to kill the Eleventh Doctor. Kill him in a way that will stop him regenerating. They’re not fighting a war against the Doctor’s present. They’re fighting a war against the Doctor’s future. The GI wants revenge; he, too tries to justify himself by referring to that blood-soaked, terrifying future. And he names it: the Beast, the Storm, the Valeyard.

    Actually, when you get inside the track of tears do you see McGann or Tennant? There is a very brief Eccleston, but I do not remember seeing Tennant.

    What do you mean by ‘inside the track of tears’? Clara enters that track – and she certainly sees Tennant and McGann. And McCoy and Pertwee and Troughton. However, she sees them ‘in action’ – when her scattered self tries to repair the damage that the GI has done. Once she’s arrived in the desert, then she sees the Doctors played by Hartnell (again), Baker, Davison, C. Baker, and Eccleston.

     So the tomb must be the tomb of a later Doctor or Smith later in his time.

    Only if we presume that the Doctor never repairs that crack in the window of the TARDIS. The one he got when he forced the TARDIS to fall onto Trenzalore. The one he’s only just created, in fact.

    That crack can be clearly seen in the giant TARDIS. Is it Emergency Protocol One where the TARDIS returns the companions (the Paternoster Gang, in this case) to their place of residence and then shuts itself down? Did she return to Trenzalore before finally shutting down? In the forlorn hope that maybe, just maybe, the Doctor and Clara had managed to escape the time-track?

    I agree that being vapourised must be somewhat tricky to regenerate from; River taking Ten’s place makes perfect sense  in that context. I took the GI’s explanation of ‘minor skirmish’ to mean ‘the Doctor shouldn’t have died’.  Certainly in all the cases you mention, they might have died. But the salient point is that they didn’t.

    Initials, dates and similar titles. 😉  It’s the one with the Angels, and it’s set in New York. It does show the Doctor cares for his wife; it can be argued that she alone is healed by his regeneration energy because she alone is the one person in the entire history of Doctor Who that he’s loved enough to marry.

    But in that case, why on earth is River so angry? I admit she’s Amy’s daughter – but she’s angry enough to slap him. What does it mean to her that he’s just wasted his regeneration energy on a broken wrist?

    And, speaking of River, when she meets Tennant she makes it clear she has seen more than one other regeneration and the implication is that they are AG Doctors – so, Doctors beyond Smith.

    Yes, River knows what will happen. She knows, for example, that Clara isn’t dead. She quite possibly knows that the Eleventh Doctor is going to regenerate. She also knows that she can’t say anything, beyond the occasional hint.

    The fact that she has seen more than Tennant and Smith in the AG Doctors doesn’t necessarily mean they were all ‘the Doctor’. And she may also know that the fact that she’s seen later Doctors doesn’t necessarily mean they’ll happen. She knew Ten could die – if she didn’t take his place. Eleven is supposed to regenerate – that doesn’t mean he will.

    Sorry – but I don’t see the 12 regeneration rule as being any impediment to Moffat and whatever story he wants to tell.

    Suppose the story he wants to tell is how the Doctor got round the 12 regeneration rule? Suppose the story he wants to tell is how the Doctor didn’t become the Valeyard?

    Personally, that sounds a far more interesting story to tell than ‘oh, let’s just ignore it. Look, Zygons!’ 😀

    #12686
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Oh, and by the way – the Smith Doctor definitely refers to the Hurt Doctor in the past tense.

    He’s the one who broke the promise. He is my secret.

    So for the Hurt Doctor to be a future Doctor, the current Doctor must already know what his future self is going to do. Furthermore, everyone and his decapitated head is giving the Doctor ominous hints about the awful, terrifying nature of his future self.

    Which means that, frankly, the Doctor’s not doing too well on keeping this highly important secret. 🙂

    Nope, ‘the secret’ is in the Doctor’s personal past. The reason the Time War seems obvious is because that’s where we’re going.

    #12719
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    They are good points about the Valeyard and 12 regenerations. They are “writers traps” establsihed long ago for future writers (things that some aspects of fandom seem to expect to be accommodated). In a run that has been largely self contained, Trenzalore is another one. Another fact that some may wish to add to “The Bumper Book of Facts we know about the Doctor” – He dies/died at Trenzalore.

    So if Moffat sacrifices the end point he establishes (the death point of the Doctor) by somehow rewriting the Doctors future, perhaps that gives him freedom to sacrifice all those other future expectations as well (Valeyard, Regeneration limit, etc.) and leave the Doctor, as we suggested long ago – reset in a way. Every regeneration a chance, driving forward with no expectations. That would certainly be a birthday gift for the Doctor.

    #12722
    Whisht @whisht

    ah @phaseshift yes,

    The Doctor has died.

    Reset in Peace

    #12726
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    They are “writers traps” established long ago for future writers (things that some aspects of fandom seem to expect to be accommodated)

    @phaseshift – agreed. They could be quietly ignored. The Time Lords are gone (and perhaps the limit was imposed, not a natural one), the Valeyard might have been one of the infinite possibilities of the Time War.

    But on the other hand, Moffat was a fan before he was ever a professional writer. He could easily have come up with an interesting idea for dealing with those particular writer’s traps. Time can be changed – one of his repeated motifs. Some things are fixed: but not everything.

    Possibly it’s a repeated motif because he does intend to change the Doctor’s future. Hopefully in an interesting way.

    🙂

     

     

    #12728
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @whisht – or:

    Old Who is dead.

    Long live New Who.

     

    #12729
    Whisht @whisht

    he he @bluesqueakpip

    Doctor – Heal thyself.

    or

    This Doctor is dead. He’s passed on! Caput. No more. E’s a stiff – kicked the bucket…

    (now, I won’t end this the way they did originally and think the whole thing’s best left here….)

    🙂

    #12730
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    Old Who is dead.

    Long live New Who.

    Arrrgghh!  Now we have to change from ‘BG’ and ‘AG’?!  Are they now both subsets of ‘OW’?

    [apologies if this is a double-post, something is going horribly wrong with my broadband tonight.  I trust our Mighty Mods can delete any repetitions!]

     

    #12731
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot

    Before Gap

    After Gap

    and – “This is my secret. What I really did in the Time War was a complete restock of the TARDIS wardrobe.”

    (The Gap)

    #12743
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @bluesqueakpip – But you could also argue that the rumours and stories of the Beast, the Storm and the Dr’s generally bad rep with Kovarian etc are down to the GI spreading misinfirmation (possibly even before he jumps into the timestream, but possibly as part of his dastardly plan after he has gone in).

    I agree Hurt Dr is looks like he’s being signposted as between 8/9 but you can also make a case for him being after Smith. Except that I think, despite River’s comments in SitL, that it is being strongly suggested that Smith is the end – death at Trenzalore, his Tardis (cracked window) etc. Would a Claricle fix that as well, so that his grave is no longer at Trenzalore? It was a minor skirmish after all.

    Or the HurtDr is the one whose tomb it is, having chosen not to regenerate as he didn’t want to continue being the Dr (out of tiredness (GI’s comment about “the old man”) or remorse or…? ). Maybe he needs to be persuaded to, to continue the line of the Dr.

    I rather like the idea of 3 Drs coming together, a past, present and future. Although as @htpbdet pointed out any time previous Drs have come together it’s been arranged by the Time Lords to avoid the consequences of the resulting paradox. So does Ten’s appearance in the 50th also suggest TLs coming back?  (And tell your nurse Jennifer we lover her, btw!)

    (Re the Time War – have we not seen something similar to that in tWoRS? With stange anomalies like pterodactyls in the park, trains running into pyramids, time standing still etc)

    #12750
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – oh, yes, you could. But…

    We know what the Doctor did in the Time War; he created the Time Lock and he destroyed Gallifrey before the Time Lords destroyed the entire universe. So he did what he did for good reason. Classic case of ‘do you shoot the maniac who’s about to burn down the house – with people trapped inside it?’ Yes, you do.

    Except…

    Eleven sees himself as a monster. Like Nine and Ten, he’s got issues left over from the Time War. Whatever he did in the past makes it plausible to him that he’ll become a monster in the future. And he refers to the Hurt Doctor in the past tense. Not “he’s the one who’ll break the promise” but “he’s the one who broke the promise.”

    I would guess that the Smith Doctor is supposed to be the end. We’re looking at alternate time streams here; alternate futures. The Doctor prevents the one where he becomes a monster by simply not having a future. See Journey ttCoTT, where he prevents the future in which he’s CrispyFriedDoctor by simply keeping his hand away from his face.

    Okay, but in Journey there are in fact at least three possible futures: one where they all either die or become TimeZombies, one where they get through to the time-crack but the Doctor doesn’t take the Big Friendly Button through himself – and the one we see, the third option, where the Doctor goes through himself and tells himself what to do.

    So I’d guess we’re heading for ‘take the third option’ – and the River in the Library (and so the River from The Name of The Doctor) is from the time stream where the Doctor took that third option. Moffat has a reset in mind which will make that ‘Valeyard’ future impossible.

    That said, part of that reset might well be that everyone in the universe is convinced ‘The Doctor’ died at Trenzalore. Yes, there’s someone who inherited both the TARDIS and the title of ‘The Doctor’ – but Trenzalore is where ‘The Last of the Time Lords’ died. The ‘Eleventh’ Doctor (really the Twelfth) was the final Doctor.

    There is, however, a new One. As in The Eleventh Hour, the clock reaches twelve – and then becomes One again. 🙂

    #12763
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    @bluesqueakpip
    Apologies – yesterday was a not-good day. Happily though, today is Talons Part 2 day!

    The novelisation describes him as the penultimate reincarnation, the one between regenerations twelve and thirteen.

    Possibly it does. But I only ever take the televised episodes as having anything to say on any given topic. (Sorry!) The Valeyard was not an incarnation as Ultimate Foe was televised – he was some mid-regeneration projection/amalgamation.

    I never liked the idea of the Valeyard much, but it was my wife, McLeela, who thought that perhaps the Valeyard was the Doctor’s way of avoiding the fate of Time Lords who regenerated more than they ought. Because we came across a number of Time Lords who were evil or amoral, her theory was that every Time Lord would eventually become that sort of Time Lord. Her idea was that a Time Lord started with one nature and over the course of the regeneration cycle would largely adhere to that nature but that one regeneration, perhaps the 12th, would be the opposite of that nature. I think the way Borusa changed natures so completely was the keystone of her theory. We always liked it because it meant a lot of things: there might be a good Master one day and, of course, the “nature” did not have to be confined to moral code, it could encompass gender. Anyway, to avoid that reversal, the Doctor created the Valeyard so that there would be one place for all of his bad possibilities and he would never regenerate into a true villain. Made sense to me – still does.

    The AG Moffat-helmed series has consistently had a succession of people absolutely terrified of the Doctor.

    Indeed. But – evil people or misguided or ignorant people will always resent the person who levels the playing field, opposes injustice or unfairness or stops evil or tyrannical regimes and prevents slaughter of innocents.  And I don’t think it was ever suggested that a good race or planet or civilisation ever was distrustful of the Doctor – was it?

    So before the Time War, the Valeyard is a figure like the Watcher. After the Time War?

    Why would the resolution of the Time War affect the nature of the Valeyard? Sealing the Time War would, surely, be exactly what the Valeyard would do?

    Smith’s Doctor is dangerous; Smith’s Doctor is scary, Smith’s Doctor is a bloomin’ psychopath. But he’s not half as genocidal as Ten was.

    I don’t see how Smith is any more or less scary or dangerous than either Tennant or Eccelston. The emphasis in the writing is different, sure, but to me both 9 and 10 have a harmony with the post-Time War aspects of Smith.

    What do both Madame Kovarian and the Silence try to do? They try to kill the Eleventh Doctor. Kill him in a way that will stop him regenerating.

    Do they? When do they reveal that?

    They’re not fighting a war against the Doctor’s present. They’re fighting a war against the Doctor’s future.

    Really? Kovarian’s hatred seems clearly rooted in past deeds of the Doctor:

    It seemed to me that they were disgruntled by the Doctor’s interventions in their plans and wanted to train up a psychopath to kill him – it was a convoluted ( frankly ridiculous ) plot but it is what it is:

    Doctor:    Why even do it? Even if you could get your hands on a brand new Time Lord, what for?
    Vastra:    A weapon.
    Doctor:    Why would a Time Lord be a weapon?
    Vastra:    Well…they have seen you…
    Doctor:    Me?

    And

    River:       You make them so afraid. When you began, all those years ago, sailing off to see the Universe, did you ever think you’d become this? The man who can turn an army around at the mention of his name? Doctor. The word for healer and wise man throughout the universe. We get that word from you, you know. But if you carry on the way you are, what MIT that word come to mean? To the people of the Gamma forests, the word “Doctor” means “mighty warrior”. How far you have come. And now they’ve taken a child, the child of your best friends. And they are going to turn her into a weapon just to bring you down. And all this, my love, in fear of you.

    None of that seems to me to support the notion that the Silence were trying to stop Smith regenerating. They just want to kill the Doctor. I can’t see anything that suggests they are trying to avoid his future.

    What do you mean by ‘inside the track of tears’? Clara enters that track – and she certainly sees Tennant and McGann. And McCoy and Pertwee and Troughton.

    Does she? I will go and look again, but neither myself nor my eagle-eyed nephews saw either McGann or Tennant either inside the “track of tears” or on an occasion when Clara was “saving” a Doctor. I don’t think it particularly means anything re Tennant – but it might mean something re McGann. If you can be bothered to give me the time codes of when they are sighted, that would be greatly appreciated. J

    So the tomb must be the tomb of a later Doctor or Smith later in his time…Only if we presume that the Doctor never repairs that crack in the window of the TARDIS. The one he got when he forced the TARDIS to fall onto Trenzalore. The one he’s only just created, in fact…Did she return to Trenzalore before finally shutting down? In the forlorn hope that maybe, just maybe, the Doctor and Clara had managed to escape the time-track?

    That’s an excellent point and one I had not considered. Yes, that is quite possible and suits Moffat’s pre-occupation with paradoxes and aborted timelines.

    I took the GI’s explanation of ‘minor skirmish’ to mean ‘the Doctor shouldn’t have died’.

    Fair enough. It seemed to me to indicate surprise that the Doctor had been defeated or died there. And that led me to think about what that might mean. Such off-hand remarks often lead somewhere unexpected.

    It can be argued that River alone is healed by his regeneration energy because she alone is the one person in the entire history of Doctor Who that he’s loved enough to marry.

    I have to say he does not look to me like he is much interested in marrying her, but he does so to gain an advantage over her, so she will accede to his wishes. I still don’t detect any real sign of “true love” between the Doctor and River. She loves him passionately, sure, but he is more equivocal – at least until The Name of The Doctor when he talks about the pain her death has caused him.  Talking about being in love and showing it are quite different – and there has been a lot of talk it seems to me. (Sorry!)

    But in that case, why on earth is River so angry?…What does it mean to her that he’s just wasted his regeneration energy on a broken wrist?

    Does it have to mean anything? Mind you, in a lot of ways it is utterly ridiculous given that River used all of her regeneration energy on him. (Which, of course, may, in itself, be the end of the difficulties posed by the 12 regeneration rule.)

    Yes, River knows what will happen. She knows, for example, that Clara isn’t dead. She quite possibly knows that the Eleventh Doctor is going to regenerate.

    I don’t think River knew what was going to happen at Trenzalore. She knew Clara was alive because she was linked to her. She knows Smith will regenerate in her timeline because she has interacted with different AG Doctors – but that timeline might become aborted from the Doctor’s point of view.

    Suppose the story he wants to tell is how the Doctor got round the 12 regeneration rule? Suppose the story he wants to tell is how the Doctor didn’t become the Valeyard?

    I am with @phaseshift. I don’t think Moffat will tell a story about those things, but he might tell his story and deal with them incidentally. But, equally, it is very strange that the first mention of the Valeyard occurs in The Name of The Doctor.

    Whatever – I have no doubt that the result here will be a regeneration where subsequently the Doctor is untrammelled by past canon – whether that is specifically referenced or not. Whatever is going to happen is about the future.

    The only question is how we get to the future.

    #12764
    HTPBDET @htpbdet

    I keep forgetting to mention this from Asylum of the Daleks:

     
    First: there were the Daleks. And then there was a man who fought them. And then, in time, he died. There are a few, of course, who believe this man somehow survived, and that one day he will return. For both our sakes, dearest Hannah, we hope these stories are true.

     
    What has always interested me about that is the notion that the Daleks came first.

     
    They came before the Time Lords?

    #12765
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Apologies for my sleep-scrambled posting last night!

    My big problem is that I can’t even work out where the 50th will start!  ie the “track of tears” is collapsing in on itself, Clara’s escape is possible because the Dr is in there also.  Because the Dr is the biggest possible anomaly on his own timestream maybe it will just spit him out before he’s finally ejected.   I agree the 50th’s thrust will be about a reset, presumably overcoming/reconciling whatever HurtDr did, so he can start relatively clean.

    So does the 50th start still inside the collapsing timestream or does it head back in time (presumably) to investigate/deal with HurtDr? And does Tennant’s casting suggest a reappearance of the Time Lords?

    Lovely idea from McLeela about a rogue regeneration to a reverse nature – natural mutations?  Possibly ties in with @bluesqueakpip‘s cyclical theory, which I like as well.   So long as no babies (and I like babies otherwise) in the Tardis it’s OK by me!!

    I don’t think it’s significant that we didn’t notice all the Drs in the timestream, tho @wolfweed may have spotted them – may have been in the pre-credits sequence.  We don’t need the detail to know that Clara jumping in worked – the Dr almost immediately starts to feel better – and his first thought is to save Clara.

    The timestream’s fading/collapsing in on itself – is that a meta-ref to suggest the previous history of the programme is also fading/being wiped out?

    @bluesqueakpip I pretty much agree with you re the position of HurtDr as 8 or 8.5, but I’m just trying to find a way to keep John Hurt as the Dr for at least an episode or 2 😉

    @htpbdet re River and Dr – their relationship convinces me, especially in NotD. We have 2 people who much prefer the facade of being blase about their relationship – and given their history –  the huge doubt and insecurity on both sides about how they feel about each other – Dr is suspicious about River – she knows too much and she tried to kill him, but she must also be insecure about the marriage – she can’t know if he just did it to be manipulative. And bottom line is it’s unequal, he’ll outlive her by centuries, already has by NotD.  So River, for all her outward sassiness, is desperately insecure. That’s why she’s angry with him for sorting her wrist – she’s actually diverting her anger at herself for showing weakness (allowing herself to be caught by the Angel).  Their relationship is built on fun and challenge and not showing your real feelings.

    But underneath all that there are signs of genuine love in both directions, built on their mutual respect – and remember there are meetings they have which we haven’t seen. In NotD – pushed to an extreme, the Dr’s feelings are finally really on show, not just in what he says.  This River is the one from SitL, at the end of her days, so she knows if Matt regenerates soon and into whom.  Any subsequent Rivers we meet will most likely be before this one.

    What has always interested me about that is the notion that the Daleks came first.

    That’s an interesting line, but is it not just that it’s being said by Darla von Karlsen who is on Skaro and who has been dalekised, so for her it’s true, but not necessarily true from a wider perspective? It’s a chilling line though.

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