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@budinacup – We’ve already had 1 gamechanger – the reset of the timeline by the GI, then Clara. But I think you are right that we are only halfway through this story and another one is likely, to reinforce how much change this reset can do.

PreHartnell is certainly a strong contender, but so is between 8 and 9 (which has the advantage of being within the new series (almost)) with the Valeyard not to be discoounted. Strong outsiders are a future Dr and between Troughton and Pertwee.

@craig – we need a poll app 😉 (Pleeeeeease!)

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@bluesqueakpip

There’s only me here, that’s the point.

Which sounds rather like one of Steven Moffat’s extremely precise lines.

And it still has a fair degree of ambiguity, LOL.

Both he (as Eleven) and Clara are “aliens” in the timestream. Neither of them should be there. There will be echoes of 11 (and presumably 1-10 also) running about all over the place in there*, somewhere in its presumably very big space. So is he including Clara in “only me here” or is it like he’s waving a hand around, gesturing, with “except for you of course” understood?

*presumably also 1m copies of Clara and the GI – or will, these being copies or echoes, be used once then fade?

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@Shazzbot I agree.

The arc (3 seasons worth!) is about the name as in the reputation of the Doctor.  In AGMGTW he is indeed called Mighty Warrior, the Oncoming Storm, the beast soaked in the blood of whatever… but the point is that he (and we in the audience) is surprised/shocked by this. At the time there was much debate about whether Moffat was dealing with the consequences of RTD period “bigging him up” (the god like status thing). A theory further fuelled when much deleting of databases started going on.

After tNotD episode there are now 2 possibilities (and probably more I’ve missed!) about how this reputation came about (apart from misperception by the other side (one man’s freedom fighter etc)) –

1 It’s been established by HDr by things he actually did/will do

2 It’s a misrepresentation, rumours driven by the GI and planted falsely. Clara maybe wasn’t able to put the fix in to stop the rumours, though maybe she helped further on by helping Amy with her dreams or keeping any eye on plastic Rory. But maybe those rumours remain, as echoes

But agree @bluesqueakpip – we’ve been told very clearly what the significance of the name of the Doctor is, it’s about how people really know you, by your deeds and reputation. It’s about the challenge of living up to that name/title – the promise he says he made (as in @phaseshift‘s hippocratic oath parallel).  The next stage is finding out what the name of the Dr isn’t – ie Hurt’s Dr’s arc.

We might find out why he chose to be The Doctor (as opposed to the Lawyer, the Good Samaritan, The Scarecrow… whatever)

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@denvaldron

PS Sorry if the above post sounded snarky, wasn’t intended. (just think of me as bitter and twisted 🙂 )

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@satsumajoe

What could be worse than ending the Time War?

Starting it…?

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@budinacup See Rings of Akhaten thread, page 1 (post #4297, 6 Apr, @jimthefish )

But you’re right, it’s a hive mind in here, and all the better for it.

Re ideas being dragged out – the Dr’s identity has been a secret for 50 years! (or over 1000 (Gallifreyan) years, depending how you look at it). They can manage a few more 🙂

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@budinacup

with reference your god comparisons…..( i think i may have been the first on her to draw the comparison)

Haha, I think you need to go and read all the previous threads before you come up with rash statements like that!!

But some good thinking, although I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that there are 2 things that definitely won’t be revealed while Moffat is in charge

1 the Doctor’s name as anything other than “the Doctor”

2 the Doctor as actually being a god (despite all the foreshadowing, hints etc). God-like abilities perhaps, or so it seems to us ordinary mortals. But it seems to me that Moffat’s 3 series arc ( 🙂 ) has been about debunking that concept

@bluesqueakpip Secrets and Lies…

Dr: “Secrets keep us safe”

Clara: “We’re NOT SAFE!”

And Eleven not Eleven – lying in plain sight, I like (My head imploded at all the possible permutations of the “lies” rhyme, LOL)

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@Shazzbot

You misrepresent me 😉 I’m in the Silence are NOT good guys camp. Or I would be if I could remember – who were they again?!

LOL @jacuzzi of fishes (out of the jacuzzi and into the whirlpool)

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@chickenelly @janetteb

Pandorica – I queried upstream (somewhere!) whether the whole Pandorica scenario actually panned out as we saw it since the rumours and stories that were circulating then were very similar to the words the GI used to describe the Dr in NotD… it looks like it’s been affected by the GI, but not yet by Clara. Or maybe the GI is also just listening to rumours, fuelled by his own personal frustration that the Dr defeated him several times.

But I like that HurtDr could be the source of the rumours. And Eleven is the victim of mistaken identity.

JanetteB said: ” If an unethical act is required to save all life does that make it ethical?”  Especially when there isn’t a viable alternative choice.  I think you’re right, that question will be at the heart of it. How did the GI know about Solomon btw, who gets a specific mention. And was the centre of that very debate when we were discussing Dinosaurs.

LOL @whohar – “mad as a whirlpool bath of fishes” Love it 🙂

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@denvaldron

And welcome to our community <evil laugh mwuhuhuhuh>

That’s an amazingly detailed theory you have there – kudos to you for the research and I can see how it can be made to work.

However, and this is just my own personal view, one of the things I love most about NotD, with the GI jumping into the Dr’s timestream, is that it can be used to completely retcon all the sorry attempts at Who films into non-existence 🙂 OK, you can leave the McGann one, but the line about the Dr being human is obviously the GI stirring it (while in the Dr’s timestream) 😈 and should be given no credence whatsoever.

😀

OTOH I am delighted to present you with the award for possibly the longest post EVER on this site 😀

(Please forgive my own personal prejudices in this.  But I still remember the bitter outrage of my child-self when I first came across the Cushing films. Being now able to retcon them completely out of existance, in canon so to speak, gives me no small measure of satisfaction!)

PS Lexx was a cool programme, lots of great ideas

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@timeloop

Is there no possiblity that Clara could have interfered in the first meeting with 2nd Doc? If we saw that form a viewpoint were Tranzalore already happened it could work … ._.

Well now, that is of course the big unknown

😀

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@timeloop, Good thinking, but it doesn’t work. Matt Smith’s incarnation comes after Troughton’s, and the first encounter with the GI was with the 2nd Dr (The Abominable Snowmen and Web of Fear). But it could certainly be down to the GI interfering

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@bluesqueakpip

On a minor note (Trenzalore is starting to make my head hurt) – am I to take it that the never-explained switch between TARDIS desktops between Angels in Manhattan and The Snowmen was a result of The Great Continuity War?

Now there’s a thought!

Right am off, my head’s exploding like multiple tardis(es) again.. 1 into 2, huh? <hmmm>

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@bluesqueakpip I think you may have just volunteered!

But it doesn’t need to be as complicated as including links to original postings, tho that would be really helpful – the rolls royce edition; Could just be lists

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@phaseshift, @craig, @jimthefish

Nesting!!!

Oh the irony 😈

But yes that could work. Something simple and more linear in thought process. The threads are more wibbly wobbly

Anyway not something we need to rush into, just logging it into the suggestions box.

Fresh cocoa and jammy dodgers on the sofa if anyone’s interested 🙂

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@craig @whisht LOL

But… but…! Where does the 2nd Tardis come from? Either HurtDr inherits it when he regenerates  (is born) or, if he’s a sideways anomaly eg from 10’s hand, then he’s Tardisless.  Matt is the current incumbent in The Doctor role (meta wise and actually!) so he gets the Tardis to play with.

Depends where he and the HurtDr meet though – assuming they do. There could be a scenario where there’s 2 (different)  Drs and 2 tardises in the same place, same time – sounds very paradoxical.

 

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Thanks for input guys.

OK, maybe not a thread, but personally I would find it very helpful if there was even just a list of what the current thinking is, like @whisht‘s suggestion of a reference wiki.  But definitely not for theorising on. (Like when Whohar made up a list of Clara headings (which I pinched, added a couple of new things people had mentioned and reposted))

But I recognise where it could be problematic – even trying to describe it took 2 paragraphs!

Like @jimthefish trying to plan ahead though – there’s a lot of bonkers theorising time between now and November – it’s also a long time to remember details, haha

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@craig

oops, I just realised I added in a bit, jumped to assuming it’s 11 who dies at T, when that’s not confirmed (dammit! thought we had a bit of it nailed!). But I think it’s close enough for a prophecy.

I agree we’re likely due a visit back there tho, and a bit of sleight of hand involving HurtDr and numbering. Can’t be Tennant though, unless you’re thinking of extending his farewell tour…!

OTOH We’ve yet to see if Trenzalore has changed as a result of the Dr jumping into his timestream etc. Do we know if we are in the past or the future btw (relative to our time). We’re all assuming it’s in the future, but maybe we went back in time….

 

 

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@jimthefish

Agree – prophecies are notoriously tricksy things to be having truck with! (this one seemed less tricksy than most, as it turned out)

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@whisht! Phew! 😉

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@Shazzbot

“no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer”

Actually now I come to think of it, living or dead is irrelevant. The question was asked (by Simeon) “Doctor Who?” and answered (by River). The prophecy didn’t specify who would answer,  just that it would be answered. And we know it was answered because the Tardis doors open and the Dr reacts. We (and Simeon) didn’t hear the answer, but the Tardis did.  Watch the scene again. There’s no “grave.. discovered..” type syntax gaps.

Doesn’t mean we won’t ever come back to Trenzalore earlier in its timestream though. Or it might be left dangling…  Dorium’s prophecy is fulfilled, but there’s still the question of which Dr actually did die there.

@tournikate – that’s just River, she may have prior lnowledge but her instincts are usually pretty good. Or she couldn’t stand the stress. OTOH she knew she had the solution (Dr’s name) and could say it without it being heard. Maybe she knew they had to get into the Tardis, or she was guessing and  just trying to buy time.

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<waves @budinacup> Hail fellow angel 😉 (love the pic)

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@craig Perfect 🙂

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@craig

Re a loose ends thread…

I’ve been noticing that as our numbers increase that there’s quite a lot of overlap in the posts, and sometimes with the sheer volume of them that it’s very easy to miss things people have been posting. It works fine for the Episode threads as these are often a conversation, and it’s a fairly short time frame that they are open for.  But there’s a lot of great bonkers theorising getting overlooked, I think.

It strikes me that it might be useful if each loose end – and goodness knows there’s plenty of them! –  could have its own thread, with comments beneath it. But more like a reference list, with maybe eg a 1 line summary, rather than discussion (that would still happen on eg 50th thread or N0tD thread). But something that people could add to (put a character or a word limit on it, LOL)

Then each loose end could be more of a reference point, people could see what the current thinking is and add to it, but main discussion would be on the/a main thread.  Seems a more productive use of our Collective/Hive Mind!  eg main header – Eleventh Hour, sub headings Duckless Duck Pond, Exploding Tardis, Disembodied Voices… then summary of each associated theory. It it’s possible to set up, we could also do it for Clara, HurtDr, Miscellaneous!

Maybe a bit more like the blogs, but not sure of the technical implications for this ie I have no idea if I’m asking for something extremely complex and head-nipping to set up, or something straightforward. 😯

Does that make sense? What do other people think?

And someone also suggested polls? Are these easy to set up?

🙂

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@craig Thanks for being the go between and thanks for posting @HTPBDETs beautiful piece of writing. Fairly packs a punch.  Thanks also to Mini-HTPBDET(S) (And yes it did!) 🙂 If you’re back in touch tell him we’re looking forward to having his uncle fully back soon as he’s up to it (and that NotD is worth waiting for!).

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Going back to Dorium’s prophecy – did it actually come from the Silence? I thought it was something he’d heard “around”.  Haven’t watched for ages though.

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@chickenelly @jimthefish

Agree – Dorium’s prophecy fulfilled in remarkable detail for a prophecy!

At the Fields of Trenzalore – check

At the fall of the Eleventh – check (ie the place where Eleven fell, doesn’t say he will fall this time)

Where no living creature may speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked (and then Dorium does his big dramatic “Dr Who???”) – check – the GI asks the question “What is your name?” and as agreed above, no-one living (River) answers it, but she says the answer out of earshot.

I went through the scene again and it is clearly the Dr’s name which opens the door (He says “I didn’t say it, I didn’t say my name” as he’s wondering why the doors have opened and River says something along the lines of “Good job the Tardis can still here me”

In the Dr’s defence River took the decision out of his hands (well his mouth), the Dr wouldn’t have let his friends die, having gone all the way to Trenzalore (the one place he should never ever go) to rescue them.

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@bluesqueakpip

Dammit! You’re so much better at this than I am (and I think you also mentioned it upstream a bit)

Still works tho, so I’m happy

🙂

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@tournikate

 I finally feel like I landed in the deep end of the swiming pool and I am loving it!! lol

Haha – just keep an eye out for the fish

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Maybe, to continue @bluesqueakpip‘s meta refs theme (I think I’m getting obsessed with this, LOL), the dark Dr represents all the authorised and unauthorised spinoffs – TV movie(??), BAFs, fanfic etc etc)

In fact, the more you think about it this way, the more it points to HDr being McGann gone bad or the one he regenerated into (who doesn’t count in the numbering system)

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@juniperfish HDr leaking into the universe 🙂 I did wonder upstream how he gets out of the timestream and into real life. does he escape as you suggest? Do they have to go and visit him in his timeline? If he regenerated into eg 10 that presumably makes it difficult to “defeat” him in conventional terms, so it has to be about bringing him into the fold again, about forgiveness.

Maybe, to continue @bluesqueakpip‘s meta refs theme (I think I’m getting obsessed with this, LOL), the dark Dr represents all the authorised and unauthorised spinoffs – TV movie(??), BAFs, fanfic etc etc)

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@juniperfish

I wondered that too re Dorium’s prophesy, if it was about the visit we’ve just seen or not. But he specifically refers to the Fall of the Eleventh, so I decided yes it was and @bluesqueakpip‘s getout clause comes in.

There again, as mentioned, the tomb looks very like Eleven’s…  Unless HDr becomes alt11…

And as far as the Silence are concerned Eleven fell at Silencio!

Aaaagh!

<head explodes>

River always knows – Actually it’s “River always knew” 😥 But, yup, agreed, I was thinking the same re who made the tunnel. Would be nice to think she was with him at his end.  Did you also notice – when he’s crying on the sofa, yes it’s about Trenzalore but it’s immediately after he’s been thinking about River. (Little echo of Hide (in the scene just after, under the console room) when he connects Clara to  the Tardis – “this won’t hurt a bit”

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@tournikate – further to which old Whos to watch – have a look at @whohar‘s very recent post on Faces of the Doctor thread. He’s posted a link to suggestions by our Who lore expert @htpbdet‘s post on the very topic

@bluesqueakpip Love it!

@thommck Not sure if all Timelord bodies get cremated. Traditionally I think they got uploaded to the Matrix, but not sure about the bodies. I think the Dr having a tomb at Trenzalore may be an anomaly.  The Tardis may be tied to the Dr in some way eg she choses to stay to safeguard his remains ie his timestream, till it’s finally faded (the scar healed), gradually leaking all her dimensionality till…

We saw some dead Tardises in tDW but as they were outside the universe maybe they weren’t typical. Do they just gradually fade away, talking quietly to themselves about everythng at once, or expand to a certain point then implode in an almighty paradox, or…? Suggestions?

But Maybe the Doctor and his Tardis are unusual – as the Dr says, no-one has time-travelled as much as him, or the Tardis in that case too. So his “time-scar” trail will be much bigger and deeper than anyone else’s.

But yes, you would think someone would try to break in and plunder what they could. Not that there looks as if there’s much life about Trenzalore.  There again those doors were tight shut.

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@bluesqueakpip

I think the Silence are going to be very confused…!

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@badwulf Much as the gap between 2 and 3 offers a tempting space, I think Moffat is much more likely to draw it from the reboot – his characters, mythology and current audience.  Then again he’s been pulling a lot from late troughton/early Pertwee this season, so who knows!

For me between 8/9 sounds most dramatically satisfying.

Question tho – HurtDr is still in the Dr’s Timestream – ie he’s like an echo at the moment (the Dr says that earlier when he’s explaining where she is). So how does he get out and become corporeal…? (Not to mention start looking for his Tardis)

<waves @janisthorns – great name 🙂 )

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<waves @tournikate> – Sorry this bit below was in one of my posts above, and meant for you, but the greeting disappeared in the edit 🙁 ( < > sometimes does)

welcome. The main thing you have to remember is that you can get pretty much all you need from Nu (or AfterGap (unless the terminology’s changed again – I get very behind sometimes!)) Who. Other bits, like the GI origin stories don’t really add substance so much as seasoning and you can pick that up in here or other blogs. (Not saying you shouldn’t go invstigating the earlier stuff, just that you don’t need to)

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And finally (possibly!)

@juniperfish

Some unknown force was controlling the TARDIS in The Big Bang – the one with the hissing voice. I think some very clever person either here or on the G-blog reckoned that hissing voice sounded like John Hurt’s!

Could be, as HDr tussles for control of the Tardis (pissed off that he is a Tardis-less Dr. Sheesh, no wonder he goes dark).  Though I’m also quite happy with it being the GI. (I doubt if it was either Grant or Hurt, but it could be either character)

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@jimthefish @whisht

Yes I remember noticing the rejected theories pile around the time of Impossible People. It whimpers a bit occasionally, but you’re right it’s getting a bit big and unstable (much like a dying Tardis). Now and again 1 crawls out to be reconsidered.

More theories!!

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@craig @Shazzbot

Yup, it’s interesting that line about voluntarily regenerating; I assumed it may have been a bluff as in JttCotT when he threatened the self destruct. So are we back to HurtDr being possibly preHartnell (has that one still got legs?), between 8/9, or between 10/11 or he’s after 11?

Haha – everyone was so sure he was between 8/9 now it’s all moving round again.

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@satsumajoe – Waaaay to go with the avatar 😎

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@craig that’s good re 10 not wanting to regenerate cos he knew what/who was coming

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@juniperfish Well @danmartinuk said that Moff told him that he and Matt read all the comments (they must be mad, masochistic or incredibly thick skinned).  I’m sure that’s why it all suddenly seems to be panning out in the direction of our theories, LOL. (Then they’ll twist it round like your blue/red, just when we’re feeling complacent, haha). And I did send Mr M a direct invite to come in here, so he’s bound to!! 🙂

So the headings for the production notes for the programme will go along the lines of – Dr & castquirks, Dates and numbers, Genuine Clues, Arc Refs, Random Things for Fandom Head-messing (inc blue/red, numbers, flashing lights, funny little pauses, switch the bow ties every now and then etc etc

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@craig You’re right – the timestream goes red when the GI jumps in, Dr starts to look v unwell (maybe more green than blue tho!); he revovers as it turns back to white when Clara goes in. Incidentally – What’s the theories re the little white flash about 42.04, when the Dr is trying to coax Clara toward him. It looks like it could be a bit of the timestream, but the Dr has been there for a little while by that time.

@jimthefish LMAO @ Gallifreyan divorce grounds!

@juniperfish Good call – I hadn’t thought about HurtDr being Tardis-less. If he’s alt11 (that little 1 sec gap between 10 and 11 when we were in the Dr’s mind in Nis anyone?) then he will be, but presumably not if he’s between 8/9.  Dark Tardis would be cool – unless he has no style and it’s all beige formica tops 😉

@Shazzbot Agree with your interpretation of River’s comment to clara re being a splinter – she was speaking as someone who knew about it only too well.

Oh, and –

I feel guilty with my blue fez now…

Ha! that’s cos you stole it!!

welcome. The main thing you have to remember is that you can get pretty much all you need from Nu (or AfterGap (unless the terminology’s changed again – I get very behind sometimes!)) Who. Other bits, like the GI origin stories don’t really add substance so much as seasoning and you can pick that up in here or other blogs. (Not saying you shouldn’t go invstigating the earlier stuff, just that you don’t need to)

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@whisht – just let us know when your new lounge is ready 🙂 And I like your avatar upgrade.

@juniperfish

I’ve had a serious visit from the great god Procrastinatus when I have deadlines!

Well keep him over on your side – last thing I need

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@juniperfish

Wow that’s a lot of eyeballs!

Sure is! (And what a scary picture it threw up!) Noticed a LOT of new members in last few days, but yes it should settle down for a while now that the series is finished, which should let everyone settle in. Ta for the intro Ms Fish 😉

And yes, agree, mucho thanks to @craig, even if you are enjoying it LOL. We miss your theorising. And loads of sympathies that you have to get spoilered in our defence. It was great to have this site open but feeling safe last week. Apparently even the Who wikepedia entry was spoilered.

Re this being a goldfish bowl (or at least a big aquarium) – not a bad thing if people keep that just a little bit in mind 🙂

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For info – TV Choice Awards long list anounced. Voted for by the public there’s a link on the link. Best Actor category includes Matt, Tennant, John Simm and Derek Jacobi (amongst some talented others)

http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/smith-vs-tennant-in-tv-choice-awards-49691.htm

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@Shazzbot

At this point we don’t know!

We’re assuming it’s for the better, but we don’t know any of the ramifications yet. For all we know the entire universe could be collapsing at the start of the 50th anniv show, as a result of all these people rummaging about in the Dr’s timestream.

They key thing you have to remember is how the canon evolved – it was never an overall masterplan, it’s been contradicted many many times in the past 50 years, depending on the current creative team. As someone said elsewhere – created as a result of writers/directors/trade union strikes/technical necessities/long session in the pub/need a paycheck etc  Long term Who fans have become experts in explaining inconsistences 😉  But now we don’t have to!!

The important thing for me is that the current creative team  love and care for Dr Who probably even more than the team who originally created it.  I suspect that the reason for the reset is not so they can dive into the deepest recesses of the backstory in a series of What ifs, but more so they can move on with a lighter step and not dragging 50 years worth of convoluted, contradictory backstory (like various versions of angry daleks in a bag, arguing about which came first) behind them!

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Just thinking – after more caffeine injections – Clara’s mum presumably hadn’t a CLUE what she was promising when she said “I’ll always find you” LOL (Unless as in @thommck‘s suggestions Clara’s her own mum)

I think how deeply we go into the ramifications of this depends on whether the 50th is set in the Dr’s Timestream or not..

@thommck – I think that’s just the way writers’ ideas evolve, sometimes one step at a time, sometimes in leaps. Being the governess doesn’t mean he wasn’t planning for her to also be the Impossible Girl; maybe the plan was for her to turn up as the governess at different times, then he saw the opportunity/got inspiration from the AotD story/watching JLC. Gaiman’s probably just grumpy cos he’d already worked the kids in by then (noting the comment about not getting paid for rewrites, LOL!) 🙂

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@whohar Now that would have been plainly ridiculous, hehe (and not half as funny as an asthmatic water buffalo)

@satsumajoe – GI/Clara  – 2 alternate timestreams – lightswitch ref – OOOOOOH! I like it 😀

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@whohar I think we mostly agree; it is fun trying to tease out the details though 🙂

However I do have to pick you up on your comments about the Tardis though –

Have you heard her – she sounds like an asthmatic water buffalo that’s just sat on a thistle.

Ahem! That’s because the Dr doesn’t know how to fly her properly! Leaving the brakes on and all 🙂

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