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Am LOLing at idea of 9, 10 being “old Dr Who”

mwuhuhuhuh!

<falls off sofa 😳 >

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@bluesqueakpip

So her mother wasn’t joking when she said ‘I’ll always find you’. She always does find Clara, and always does become her mother.

That thought makes me feel very warm and happy 🙂 (ClaraPrime looks/sounds so lost when she’s in the Dr’s timestream and there’s so many of her living and dying throughout the Dr’s history)

But yes… how?

And the whole thing about Clara “blowing in on a leaf” so that those particular 2 people meet to become her parents… maybe some of the claricles become her mum in the timestream – she sets that up so she gets some protection for herself… And does it suggest anything about the reality of the one we think is ClaraPrime?

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Nice pic @wolfweed. Happy b’day to Mr C (a sort of ghost Dr 🙂 )

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EcclestonTennant

I don’t think everyone would necessarily agree with you that innuendo is the high-spot of adult humour.

what I loved about the old doctor who, you had to figure it out for yourself, not everything was told to you

I would resepctfully suggest that 11,000+ comments on this site alone (in 5 months) are testament to the fact that a bit of “figuring out yourself” is still required!

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A lot depends on where the HurtDr fits in. I keep trying to have him as the one who’s really dead at Trenzalore but I end up with the literal dead end problem. He presumably has to regenerate into one of the Drs we already know. Unless he’s a branch-line of the Dr that didn’t lead anywhere. But it works better if he’s actually in the main timeline, cf apologising for things your parents have done, or like governments taking responsibility for things their predecessors have done – they have no direct responsibility for those long past deeds, but are still experiencing the benefits/consequences of them.

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@bluesqueakpip Spoilers??? 🙁  You mean re casting in series 8/Xmas special? I did say reportedly cos I’m not sure it’s confirmed and it doesn’t rule out that – 1. He’s not in it all the way through and/or 2. he’s dead (for the reasons you mention above!)

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@satsumajoe @bluesqueakpip

I don’t see the problem. sorry.

Clara calls herself Souffle Girl in NotD. She’s been making souffles, possibly not too successfully. It’s her mum’s resipe. that’s the source memory. she jumps intothe timestream and becomes claricles. One of those claricles becomes COO in AotD and uses the memory of making souffles to her mum’s recipes as a way of building and maintaining her psychic wall.  The Dr picks up on the theme of souffles because that’s what alerted him to what was odd about Clara. So he calls her Souffle Girl because Clara originally does it in NotD. ie although AotD comes before NotD in the viewers timeline it’s clear that Clara’s influence is already there – ie this episode has been retconned by the claricle by the time we see it.

Yes?

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LOL @elouise Children will indeed drive you insane, yes indeedy 😉

Hurt Dr doesn’t say much and what he does say could equally apply to eg  what the Dr has said about his decision to end the Time War – No choice, for the greater good etc (road to hell and good intentions etc)

I think he starts the Time War in some crucial way, perhaps working with the daleks or cybermen (but from the best of motives). Which puts more onus on our Dr to take the responsibility to end it.  I suspect the 50th could deal explicitly with the Dr’s morality – eg saving one person is as important as saving 1 million

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@bluesqueakpip

He’s planning to not regenerate when his time comes

Well that would be a gamechanger and a half!

But ~I agree with you it’s looking that way. The signs are clearly laid out that it’s Matts’ Dr who dies in the “minor skirmish” (his Tardis plus Clara says she’s only seen 11 faces).

So “our” Doctor’s line finishes with Matt and there’s a new person who steps into the role of “The Doctor”? <mischievously chuckles to herself at the thought of the internet exlosions that would bring!>

Am assuming not, since MS has reportedly confirmed he’ll be in series 8; Also assuming they can’t afford John Hurt for more than 1 epiode

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Agree with @whisht, Spoiler thread is great (I was hanging around this site most of the pre-NotD week, confident of avoiding spoilers, while I could see other people were madly discussing on that thread)

@craig – asked this a while ago, and I don’t know if it’s just not possible – any chance of a “like” option (similar to Facebook). Sometimes  you don’t need to add a comment but you just want to indicate agreement with someone else’s post. I know you can “favourite” on here but it’s not that easy to do and it doesn’t show on the main thread. It’s not about gathering trophies btw, but it adds to the arguments sometimes, and shows the poster who’s in agreement with them, without needing an extra post.

If it’s not possible, no worries, it’s just a detail.

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topperofgallifrey Sorry. See @satsumajoe‘s reply further up. Basically I think that Vastra’es existance relies less on the Dr’s influence than the others.

@satsumajoe Sorry, I may be misunderstanding your point. As I see it, the Dr calls Clara Souffle Girl (but not to her face according to @bluesqueakpip ) from Snowmen on (based on his memory of her fantasy of making souffles in AotD).  I think  Clara  comes up with it spontaneously (but it’s the source moment for that AotD memory).

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WooHoo! Brand new thread – thanks @craig 🙂

OK, to kick-start it – what do people think is going to be in it?! (And what would you like to see?)

I’ve been saying for a long time that I think it’s about re-setting the history so that the next 50 years can start with the Dr largely relieved of the burden of that very large bag of canon he’s been trailing about, including the Time War.  But I trust Moffat is enough of a fan to do that with respect for the programme’s history and understanding of what’s important to it.  (that may of course be open to a lot of discussion on the various boards and I can see that other people may welcome it less than me 😉 )

I’m assuming that the major part of the story will deal with the HurtDr and how “our” Dr reconciles himself with the deeds of his past self.  I’m assuming that, as the timestream is collapsing in on itself by the end of NotD, that the 50th will take place back in “real time”.

Even that poses questions – is Trenzalore the way we left it? Is the Dr still “really dead” at Trenzalore? When we first come across HurtDr he is looking out at a landscape that looks very like Trenzalore (eg the gravestones).  Is Trenzalore somehow connected to Gallifrey (past or future) – tried to get some comparative screengrabs, but nothing convincing either way.

And if he didn’t do what he did in the name of the Doctor, in whose or what’s name did he do it?

 

 

 

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EcclestonTennant

Greetings. Re the convention – no idea- no details announced yet, but keep an eye on the various websites, inc the excel one for updates.

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@satsumajoe You could be right re the Dr’s jump, my point was just that we don’t need it – it’s enough that the GI then Clara have jumped in – that already changes the Dr’s memories.

And yes, good call  re Daleks and Cybermen seeing Dr as their saviour. Again that could be timestream interference (eg as opposed to him being their nemesis) or it could be anotehr riff on general Dr Who theme of the monsters aren’t always the ones you think they are.

OK, about to hop off to the brand new shiny 50th thread, but just some last thoughts on NotD. Having rewatched a few times, I love it even more. Realise it didn’t work for everyone but I thought it was beautifully constructed, multilayered story. We see a side of the Dr we very rarely see, when his guard is down. He talks about what it’s like to have time travelled so much, and we feel his pain over River (and I think the tear on the sofa is as much about her as it is about Trenzalore).

For those who don’t believe in River/Dr relationship, it’s mostly about what they don’t say to each other. River accuses the Dr of not liking endings, but she clearly doesn’t either. They suit each other, but their situation means there’s always doubt on both sides – it’s forced on both of them – there’s never a time they meet when neither of them knows the other. But they clearly mirror each other. The Dr doesn’t like dealing with emotions, River covers hers up with swagger. But they both clearly care very deeply about each other. The Dr’s revelation to River that he can touch her and that he can  always see, hear her, combined with our knowledge that she’s been in the library – ie dead – a long time, is very moving. I think that scene and the way Matt plays it clearly shows why the Dr is reluctant to get into relationships – even River, who can match him, is timey wimey in many ways, is still mortal, and considerably shorter lived than he is. Incidentally, River knows about Trenzalore in the conference call.

I thought the lighting was particularly good, and both Clara and the Dr look believably ill. Goes without saying the acting is great throughout.

Loved the whole Paternoster thing – the way they set up how the conference call worked was so concise – “I’ll send out the invitations, you get the candle” (EH??? Seconds later… Aah 🙂 )

Loved the scenes with the old Drs and the repeated image of Clara falling through the timestream, the camera closing tight in on her pupil – “I don’t know where I am”

I really liked that after being saved, the Dr reasserts himself and his first thought is to save Clara (which he does without any help). The Dr emotional again, talking about the significance of his name (“The Doctor” 😉 ). Clara faints when he says “He’s the one who broke the promise” Too big a retcon ever for her??

I thought the whole thing was very emotionally satisfying and tied up Clara’s, the GI’s and River’s arcs, albeit with a few ends still dangling. I loved the new implications that are introduced – that Clara only sees 11 faces and says “I saw all of you”, John Hurt is introduced as “The Doctor” just after Matt has said he isn’t the Dr. And that old continuity is potentially neutered.

Last anomaly – why is there a timestream flash on the right of the screen after the Dr is in his timestream, just after he finds Clara (42.45)?

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@bluesqueakpip @satsumajoe

Souffle girl… am assuming BSP has best memories of this since just watched with a very analytical eye! I thought the Dr had called her that in her presence, but no?  Maybe CarlaPrime now has a memory of Souffle Girl because the beginning of this episode is now post Clara jumping into the timestream?

Mothers/daughters – AotD opens with Darla von Karlsen ostensibly trying to save her daughter. Clara’s mum. Mrs Gillyflower and Ada.  Dead mothers – DvK, in The Snowmen, the Maitlands, Clara’s… Not sure where I’m going with this, LOL, but just flagging it up again 🙂

Hope you’re feeling better today and your pips are back in fine squeaking fettle 🙂

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@whisht

Dr Who Cheers… calling “Time gentlemen please” at the end, and as you said “where nobody knows your name…”

(Clara/Carla.. “Wouldn’t you like to get away…”)

😀

 

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topperofgallifrey

Question to people, when Jenny and Strax died how come Vastra didn’t die? Can anyone explain?

Vastra woke up (River threw wine in her face) before they could get to her? Her heart’s in a different place/hide’s too thick for the Whispermen? Actually, I don’t think Strax did die – he woke up in time (River again). The 3 are transported to Trenzalore and only Jenny is dead when they arrive.

Or they’re all ghosts? (I don’t think so, but just throwing it in there 😈 )

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@bluesqueakpip

You are just awesome! We are not worthy!! 😀

I hadn’t realised Clara fainted/was unconscious quite so much!  Used to happen to female assistants all the time in the 60s 🙂

Couple of comments – re red wine – Matt spat out in IA, but as @whohar pointed out a while back, Pertwee’s Dr “liked a good red” from time to time.  Plus all the little anomalies that various people (particularly Bluesqueakpip) pointed out in the Snowmen – the newspaper articles for example

<hits self over the head> Doh! I don’t think anyone’s mentioned the change in the Tardis being down to Clara (hence the reason the Dr doesn’t mention it. He usually makes a comment-  was it Tennant or Matt who came in to a refurbed Tardis and said something like “look at YOU!)

@Shazzbot Charlie Cook

Re retconning continuity errors – see previous discussions this thread and early 50th discussion (dalekised Dr theory had similar specualtion but due to memories upload) re ability of claricles concept to retcon/change every continuity error in Dr Who EVER, and to change the history as required.  It’s a potentially more massive change than a lot of people realise. OTOH 7.2 was written for Clara, so anything odd in there should be looked at closely!

I don’t know if we’ll get more of Clara’s back story, but I think we might get more about the effects. Re the leaf – it wasn’t presented to the grandfather as Clara’s leaf, it was her mother’s. Because her mother died so young, her life was full of potential. I’m still intrgiued by her rash promise (“I’ll always find you” – did she have any idea just what she was taking on?!). Clara Prime’s greatest fear was of getting lost.

@bluesqueakpip what does your mighty brain come up with re if there’s any significance to the fact that there are 2 different leaves?

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@danmartinuk

Best (examples of each Dr)?

ie not necessarily their best stories, but best examples of their characters or aspects of their season or Dr Who as a whole, or particular subtexts 😉

(Shame @htpbdet isn’t about just now – he loves the challenge of accommodating so called continuity errors, LOL)

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<cries quietly into beer>

*sniff*

It’s Saturday. It’s 181 days till 23 Nov :cries:

(+8 hours, 45 mins, 20 secs!)

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@janetteb

Agree with your take on the TimeLords. Always struck me as a plutocratic system now passed into the hands of people who had been in power too long. want still to hold on to the great power that being a Time Lord gives but with no sense of what it means, have forgotten the responsibility that it brings. They’ve mostly lost their sense of adventure as well it seems. All a bit Gormenghast. (And in some timeywimey way your son’s birthday is exactly the reason it’s 10 Apr 🙂 )

@bluesqueakpip – that’s perfect analogy, love it 🙂

Clever @chickenelly. The crown and pipe are working well

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@craig

LOL at the 4 Marys (Dr’s influence leaks into real life again…?! (Or have you just been overdosing on back issues of the Bunty?!)

My personal faves are Rose and Crown with maybe occasional forays to Glasgow’s pocket universe of the Slaughtered Sontaran for the wilder weekends.

(Now, if you just had a poll app in place, this would be easy 😈

Nice place here, though the landlord doesn’ t half go on a bit 🙂

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@Shazzbot

It’s the Wed before Cold War was screened. so could support your theory, if CW is the first one that we see a claricle. 🙂 (Though given that it’s all timey-wimey rather than linear, prob doesn’t apply)

 

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@Shazzbot

Yeah, I liked @Bluesqueak’s thoughts on that too. I think it’s mostly ClaraPrime throughout 7.2. Reasons? Ironically, the way she seems less formed than the claricles.  She starts off as a nervous time traveller, she’s not sure about the Dr, or how to behave around him. She’s shocked by her first contact with the realities of  battles (the bodies in CW), she and the Tardis have to get to know each other (unless there’s a second Tardis going round after RoA) etc

Incidentally, 10 Apr 2013 was a Wednesday – ties in with the Dr’s “see you next Wed”. Anyone find any other significance to the date?

<is mighty relieved @Shazzbot is planning to have a bit of a life >

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<embarrassingly splutters most of her pint across the table @whisht! looks around for the reset switch 🙂 >

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@danmartinuk

Just adding my support to @phaseshift‘s comment about a list of 20 greatest DWs would likely just bring you into the same territory as everyone else. Boring! 😉   One of the nice things about the G blogs (generally) is the personal aspect of them.  And if you challenge a few perceptions with a gay subtext theme, so much the better! IMHO.

😈

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Hi @ana-carolina-teixeira-cortes

And someone could please tell me the exactly meaning of those two?

Sorry, no such thing as exact meanings on Dr Who ( 🙂 ), but I like the symbols, thanks for posting. (Someone else on this board might be able to enlighten you more. (And welcome to the forum)

@allon-zee Thanks for the post upstream to the French site. Lots of great old clips (and full length episodes) – I could get lost in there 🙂

 

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@osakahatter I agree with you re your idea for the 50th generally, that in some ways it will be the pitch for the future.  I think we’ve probably finished with Clara’s backstory. Once the Dr gets ClaraPrime back out of his timestream she’ll be able to consolidate her character – we saw a much more developed Clara in NotD I thought. (@Shazzbot – best of luck in chronicling ALL the descrepancies in DW over the years, LOL. I think the idea is that what we have seen (for last 50 years) is the Clara-fixed versions, which may or may not be exactly the same as they were originally)

I think the GI as a major threat has probably gone (tho there is potential to bring him back at some point). But I agree the focus will be on how the Dr deals with HurtDr, leading to him reconciling himself with his dark side. Agree with @bluesqueakpip re Time Lords, but not sure how.

50th could be set still in his timestream and/or dealing with the events leading up to Trenzalore

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@danmartinuk

Well I would argue the case for The Happiness Patrol, but that is me

Sounds a good enough reason to put it in your blog 🙂

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Bloomin subs!

Any chance they can change the badging? (Including the ones already run, retconning so to speak). I’m assuming you’ve already thought of that, but sometimes it’s worth mentioning the obvious

Are you on a word limit or could you include an explantory paragraph explaining the basis for the choices?  Might stir up a bit of controversy if certain people see Timelash in “Greatest Ever” list 👿 OTOH I bet you’d also get people championing it  and proclaiming your insight.

(I defected during most of Davison and C Baker, liked McCoy a lot so not much use on episode selection from this time)

 

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@whisht

and are we calling her fragmentations “Claricles”?

Seconded

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@penny

Didn’t Clara learn of the Doctor’s name in that book she found while she was trapped inside the Tardis, but then forgot it when he reset time?  Couldn’t she just be suppressing the knowledge.  If River is the only person who knows his name then….

She did, and she probably is. But remember that it took being closely exposed to a leaky Tardis to trigger the first memories.  At least, she found something in the book (and when she got soaked in the Gallifreyan encyclopedia), we’re not sure what it was. In JttCotT she says : “But you’ve got a name, I saw it in the corner of the tiny….” then she’s interrupted. The Time War book is not tiny. (That’s not exact quote but the key word is tiny.)

That trip and what she saw could well be revisited. She remembered the most stressful bits first, the smaller details may come later.

At the start of the episode River is the only one who knows his name. Now there’s 2. I don’t see a problem with that. (Or you can have your Clara is River theory, I just prefer that she’s not 🙂 )

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@craig – you’re a star! Thanks so much for the minisodes – hadn’t seen them before (may have to stop being a Scottish cheapskate and invest in DVD sets!). They’re fun.

Still doesn’t change much re River though. Yes we know it’s Matt’s Dr who takes her to the Singing Towers but we have no idea when ie how old his Dr is then. There’s also no reason why she can’t be seeing other versions of the Dr (after 11) at the same time – does it count as cheating if you’re dating 2 (or more) different incarnations of the same person…?

And @wolfweed – LOVED the story of the dalek in the pond (even tho  it goes back to 2009) – that’s just brilliant. And the pic is fab – imagine how you’d feel if it happened to you?! OMG Daleks are real!!!

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@chickenelly – love the crown – very you.  And it goes really well with the pipe 🙂

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OOOOOOH! A pub 😀

With “The Landlord called the Timelord, Tardis-less and slumming it in an Earth pub, spewing forth his universe-weary pearls of wisdom…” (slightly adapted from @whisht )

And a barmaid called Clara.  With a few ne’erdoweels and would be galaxy-dominating villains lurking in the corners 😉 I love it!  The Slaughtered Sontaran sounds pretty good too – is that Strax’s local when he goes to Glasgow?

And looks like it’s open pretty late too. Not to mention it seems to contain echoes of last night’s conversations 😉

A quick lunchtime pint then… <thinks: is it too early for a pangalactic gargleblaster…?>

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@bluesqueakpip

it’s a ruined desert of a place

Very poetic 🙂 You’ld expect it to be though, this is a dead Dr’s timestream, the scar tissue (in time) that’s left after his (extremely long) lifetime of time travel. Calling it scar tissue suggests that in time, time will heal itself, so that eventually the Dr’s timestream will fade completely, as he disappears from the collective universe memory.

That reminds me – one of the things I really liked about this episode is how it references the fact of the Dr’s history, it shows the effects of being such an unusual person, having timetravelled more than anyone else and possibly regenerated more in a short space of time (except maybe for the Master).  This is a different Dr from the cosmic adventurer who started out. he’s much older in many ways than Hartnell. He understands on a very personal level exactly what it means to outlive (by centuries) his best friends (and his wife); to be the only one left of his kind (as a result of his own actions).

And then the reveal of the extremely dark, guilty secret in his personal cellar – this person who has done terrible things, but who in some ways is him.  He’s confronted directly with his own death (and the death of the Tardis who has been his one constant) and he becomes more open emotionally than we have ever seen him. Matt has never been better I think.  He plays the Dr as emotional but as drawing a strength from being more honest (to himself) about how he feels.

 

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@satsumajoe Haha – 2 leaves – now that is a blindingly simple solution which explains (almost but not quite) everything 🙂

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Wow, it does move faast in here! 🙂

Yes, the leaf.  Agree with @brotherjohn, it’s an enigma. It’s the thing that Clara “blew into the world on” (she also being a thing of infinite possibilities).  We’re told (in BoSJ) that it’s page 1.  And then its appearance in RoA, when it looked strangely different from how it looks in BoSJ and NotD. And yes it did look as if it got munched then, although several people have pointed out that there was an effect around it that looked like regeneration energy.

Instead of the Dr getting it when he was posing as “grandfather” theory (which seems a bit on the outrageous side even for Moffat!), how about Clara first gets the leaf from the Dr in the timestream – that would certainly imbue it with lots of timey potential?  Hmmm, I can see a few problems with that one, not least that that would mean RoA would have to happen after. And it doesn’t explain how he gets it, as Clara hasn’t been carrying her big book recently. Oh well, back to drawing board.

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@whisht Ahahahaaha!

We need a “like” button in here 😉

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@craig (stuff the business end – back to theories 🙂 )

One problem is the TARDIS tomb had the same cracked window as Smith’s, and they made a bit of a deal about that. Perhaps Smith and Tennant swap TARDISes?

Tardis could def be significant in light of other suggestions re the makeover not being mentioned, the Tardis’s poss odd behaviour in RoA and this, as you point out.  Where does the spare Tardis come from?

Or HurtDr is rehabilitated and forgiven by dying @ Trenzalore? (oops, but then we’ve got a non-regenerated Nine (or whoever comes after))

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@whisht

LMAO @craig being modded 😆

Am probably one of the most paranoid on here re spoilers, but even I accept that there are some things I’m not going to be able to avoid before Nov. Zygons being one of them. Hurt in whatever costume it is that seemingly drops big hints about which where he fits in (but I’m still trying with that one 😉 ).

Having watched the trailers for NiS and NotD retrospectively, I’m glad I didn’t see them before.

Apologies @budinacup – there was a widespread discussion on here about Zygons a month or so back, which is why they slipped through – or they were disguised as a member! Damn sneaky things. But if they’re being dropped in this early (and they were practically being flown from the rooftops with a big sign on them by the official channels), especially with their back story, I do suspect misdirection. But I’ve been known to be wrong! Many times  🙂

PS No time just now, but will get back re your list (@craig – any concensus on opening  new 50th thread or staying on here?). Fellow angel, you know my thoughts on the first 2 🙂

 

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@denvaldron

No problem at all.

your consistent underlying thesis is that the movies suck and  you don’t care about them.

Spot on! But please don’t take it personally, if you hadn’t raised a bit of interest with your extremely detailed original post I wouldn’t have interacted. The beauty of the show  is that there’s been 50 years of it (and I’m the last person to suggest it’s all been perfect) – that’s several generations, and a lifetime in terms of how TV itself has grown, never mind society.  Everyone’s take is different – it’s a big enough concept to accommodate many different perceptions of it. I’m sure you’ll find others in here who’ll be happy to discuss Cushing with you. And I’m happy to discuss anything else 🙂

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@bluesqueakpip

Nice work – and love the bullet points 🙂

So, thoughts on

The girl who died he tried to save, She’ll die again inside his grave?

Is that just a threat/doomy forecast or was Clara meant to die from eg jumping in the timestream The fact that (we hope) she hasn’t – does that change anything?

Or could it be about Jenny? She died, killed by the GI, which is why we’re at Trenzalore – the Dr trying to save her (although it’s Strax who actually does). She then dies after the GI jumps into the timestream which is presumably what he planned in luring the Dr to Trenzalor. (Jenny being collateral damage from the GI changing all the Dr’s victories to defeats). The rhyme doesn’t say that she was saved again, because the GI didn’t predict Clara undoing all the damage he does.

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@Shazzbot

what does that fish-in-a-bathtub painted into the lower-left corner REALLY mean?!?

what fish…??? dammit I missed that!!

😉

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@denvaldron

On the contrary, I loved the whole Chameleon Arch plot, thought it was handled really well and Human Nature in particular is very strong. But it plays with the idea of the Dr being human, it doesn’t ultimately make him so.

You want to retcon the films? Easy – they were made as a result of the GI’s dastardly interference and have now been wiped from existence by Clara’s fix.

😆

You on the other hand (and everyone else!) are free to retcon them whatever way you like 😀 Apart from the basic premise being wrong, for me, they are just not good enough as films to worry about. (And I’m not going anywhere near the debate about whether the books, Big Finish etc are canon or not 😉 )

Just for info, I recommend a recent blog post on here, a very personal account which eloquently sums up the magic of Dr Who for a kid watching it, growing up in the 60s. The mad (alien!) man in the magic box who could one day (or starry night) drop from the sky and change your world. There’s also some interesting reflections on how it was made to last all week, without the benefit of videos, iplayer, youtube etc.  It’s very difficult to capture the same magic watching them in 2013, but hopefully post 2005 works the same sort of magic for kids today.

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<waves hurriedly @7thdoctor>

re his grandaughter – she leaves at the end of Dalek Invasion of Earth (1964) – falls in love with earth man. History after that and current whereabouts unknown

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@denvaldron

I don’t know that the Doctor was even established as an alien or non-human until the encounter with the Meddling Monk,

There are probably only 2 things that were established about the Dr in Ep 1 (An Unearthly Child)

1 He’s not from Earth

2 We don’t know his name or much  about his backstory, except that it is heavily hinted he’s running/escaping from something. And he is travelling with his grand-daughter

You’re right, the TimeLords came along later, as did regeneration, introduced as required, but the Dr was always, specifically, an alien.

As a viewer since 1963 (and on and off from mid 70s), there’s not much they could change that would make me decide never to watch it again – discovering a human heritage would be one of them! 😛

[ScaryB @replies]

@penny That may have been post-library River’s last appearance, but not necessarily. Much discussion about that earlier in this thread, if you want to check back. And plenty of dangling ends if any writer wants to pick her up from before the Library.

River and Dr’s relationship is never at a place where one meets the other for the first time without knowing that the other one means a lot to them in the future. (One of them always knows much more about their relationship/future than the other).  🙂

[ScaryB @replies]

@denvaldron

In contrast, the Cushing Doctor was designed as a movie, and followed conventional movie narrative structures.  So it just doesn’t have that quality of complexity and depth, except to the extent it borrows some of it from the original stories it adapts.  But you know what?   This exact criticism is available to the McGann movie.

I think that the huge problem of the Cushing Doctor for most Who fans is simply this:   He’s not “our” Doctor!

My problem is exactly that – he’s not “our” Dr, he’s not even “a” Dr!  And yes I would apply exactly the same criteria to the McGann movie for the same reasons. 🙂  An Earthling/human Dr is immediately emasculated and limited. The massive imaginative universe in which the Dr is set suddenly has fences set around it.

While I’m with @htpbdet in generally seeing discrepancies and continuity errors as challenges rather than problems, I have no intentions of even trying to retcon the Cushing “Dr” into canon.  McGann, OK, but not his movie either 🙂

Everyone else is of course entitled to their own views. Me, I”m going to wash my brain out now, to get rid of those movie memories which have stirring creepily, and hopefully never think of them again.

PS “Not aged well…” I remember when it came out and it didn’t start well either! Hated by the series fans and too dull to appeal to the mainstream, they were seen as being a blatant cashing in on the series success

 

[ScaryB @replies]

@bluesqueakpip Thanks for picking up Clara’s line “I saw all eleven of you” (paraphrased) again – that’s a potentially very explosive line when they’re in a place which is supposed to contain all of the Drs up till his death.

(And nice call on Trenza (3 stranded braid) -lore )

Clara surviving in the Dr’s timestream (and she’s not out yet (he’s carrying her out at the end, mirroring carrying Amy in AotD)) – can be explained by the Dr’s own explanation that she has him as her advantage – the difference between her and the GI. That’s why he has to go in to find her as presumably the original gets “lost” completely or fractures or fades if left in there too long.

(I have Clara as future Dr as my favourite wishlist theory, next to Blutin Hootwhistle 🙂  )

@budinacup – one of the reasons for the debate is that it’s not about “The Dr’s name” it’s “The Name of the Dr” <hmm, impressive moves 🙂 >

 

 

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