Masterspotting

The end of a series which has seen the latest actor to grace the part of the Master. Time for me to answer the question literally no-one has been asking. Where does Michelle Gomez fit into my personal rankings of Masters? Yes – I can’t see the end of the series without another one of my personal lists.

These are my own rankings, but what about yours? Please feel free to share your opinions on the great man/woman.

7. #5 Eric Roberts (8th Doctor Movie)

Eric’s performance has been said to be “Cartoon terrible”. This isn’t my opinion, it’s actually Eric himself. You really do have to admire the man for self awareness. Honestly – I’ve seen him in a few things and don’t think he’s a bad actor, but the Director said he wanted it “big”, he’d heard the old show could be a bit camp and pitched it at pure panto, as imagined by someone who had only heard of panto vaguely. Sometimes I watch and laugh along with it. Most times I just think “Oh, dear”.

How the ?u%& did he do that?

Apparently he could survive Dalek extermination. His remains were delivered to the Doctor by the Daleks (unusually accommodating of them), only to emerge in snake form and take over people. No – me neither. Terrance Dicks gamely tried to write a loose semblance of a narrative over these events in the novel The Eight Doctors. Bit of a lost cause that one Terrance.

6. #7 John Simm (Utopia, Last of the Time Lords, End of Time)

Love Simm as an actor. Genuinely engaging in virtually everything I’ve seen him in. I don’t think his Master worked, and I think it was a fundamental error in writing. Again – why ask a good character actor to amp it up and play an infant on a sugar-rush?

Don’t get me wrong, there are some good scenes, and moments of calm lunacy which I do get (the scene as he taps out his drumbeat, staring into space after murdering the cabinet is fantastic). It really is just the scenes directly opposed to the Doctor. When you imagine the ghost of Anthony Ainley saying “Tone it down a notch, love”, you know there is something wrong. I heard that far two many times. I’m afraid the ghost of Heath Ledger’s Joker loom’s large in this one.

How the ?u%& did he do that?

OK – You will yourself to Death to circumnavigate regeneration. Your body is cremated (“Don’t cremate me”) and here you come, back from the dead. Summoned in a Black Magic ceremony by a ring and the blood of your ex. By a group of butch prison wardens who looked like they’ve been imported from Prisoner Cell Block H. No – me neither.

And people complain about a moon-egg!!

5. #4 Anthony Ainley (Fourth to Seventh Doctors)

Where do you start with Ainley? I’ll start with a quote from @JimTheFish where he questioned “why the hell would the Master want to regenerate as the same character!!”. Just because it made me laugh. Because with the variability of the Doctors appearance, the Masters first visibly human “rejuvenation” (because it wasn’t technically regeneration) with Black hair, groomed goatee must show a lack of imagination?

Ainley put in some variable performance as the Master in a variable period of the shows history. He’s the writers and Directors bitch, let’s be honest. Other Masters had the benefit of playing against one Doctor to a strict code enforced by a single script editor/Lead writer. He didn’t.

“You want camp – I can do camp. You want character work? OK – let’s talk.”

Watch him in Mark of the Rani (which I find appalling) and he’s written as a melodrama loving buffoon. Watch him in The Five Doctors, Logopolis, Castrovalva and Survival and I think you can see the better aspects of his work.

How the ?u%& did he do that?

Where the hell do you start? Ainley was the Master (chortle) of the sudden return from certain death. Trapped in a collapsing temporal incursion? No problem. Beamed without a TARDIS to an alien world to be the plaything of an alien race? See you next week. Incinerated in the fire from a volcano? Just a flesh wound. The man would baffle Houdini his miraculous escape routines.

4. #2 Peter Pratt (Deadly assassin) #3 Geoffrey Beevers (Keeper of Traken)

A lot of our knowledge of regeneration and its limits came from this period as the Master regenerates beyond thirteen and the results are horrific. Twisted and distorted, only hatred and bitterness give him the will to continue, and seek to extend his life by whatever means.

I think Pratt and Beevers both do a good job, hampered somewhat by the prosthetics of the time. I’ve often wondered if JK Rowling (who was a bit of a Doctor Who fan when young) saw Deadly Assassin and it ingrained subconsciously on her. Compare the Master of this period and the position of Voldermort in the early Harry Potter books and there are some similarities, with them jointly sharing dialogue about living a half life, having gone further than any other, etc.

The one thing that they suffer from is a lack of obvious charm and being so serious. But against the fourth Doctor, perhaps that was the point?

How the ?u%& did he do that?

Well – get into that state is the obvious question. And survive in it. Other than that he had a miraculous escape from a chasm in Deadly Assassin, but was clearly shown later leaving Gallifrey.

3. #6 Derek Jacobi (Utopia)

Gosh – what a coup. Jacobi has dabbled in the world of the Whoniverse in audio, but it was a delight to have that reveal on TV, and see the cosy charm of Yana gave way to the hollow, bitter, megalomaniac who’d quite happily kill the lovely alien who’d been helping him. Because he didn’t like the way she talked. It’s all too brief, but I’d love, somehow, to see him again. He’s pretty masterful. Clearly the Doctor can never know that Yana is the Master, but that wouldn’t stop me swallowing a bucketful of technobabble to see Jacobi, as the Master, face of against John Hurt’s War Doctor. Clash of the Titans. We’ll never see it.

How the ?u%& did he do that?

Pretty clear, all in all. Remains from the movie resurrected by the Time Lords (as is their gift), ran, and hid himself in a way the Doctor had already revealed! Huzzah!!

2. #8 Michelle Gomez (Series 8)

As insane as the Simm Master, but somehow much more terrifying. I think a lot of this comes down to a simple equation. I think Simm was an actor pretending to be insane. I’m pretty sure that Michelle Gomez, is, at some fundamental level, insane. She’s brilliant at the scenes she’s given, turning from playful to nasty on the turn of a coin. Effortlessly odd, a preening ego playing games. A stalker of a Time Lord. Someone who desperately wants to prove a point.

I think, of all the scenes I’ve seen the Master in, her countdown to death for Osgood will live the longest in memory. It’s a work of manic genius on her part, and narrative playfulness on the writers that would have Alfred Hitchcock applauding. You know its coming. You know it can’t happen. You know it’s coming though. Bugger. She’s dead. No care, no remorse. Her “last temptation of The Doctor” plan is audacious and, for me, far more in tune of the Doctor/Master “I need to prove that I’m right” dynamic we’ve seen previously.

How the ?u%& did she do that?

After reading the preceding entries, do we really feel that Missy was casually caught out by a Cyberman blaster? I think not. Hope she didn’t have to regenerate. Gomez was superb and I want additional airtime. I hope they have confidence to add layers to the character.

1. #1 Roger Delgado (Pertwee Years)

The original, and I still think the best. I think each Master has to be ranked alongside their Doctor for full effect. Delgado was what Pertwee actually needed. He was marvellous against Delgado – a true double act. I think there were hints at that double act in this encounter between Capaldi – Gomez.

The 50th Anniversary year of 2013 also saw the 40th Anniversary of his untimely death. I wrote a tribute at the time, which I hope you may enjoy reading.

I think he would have been delighted as Gomez as a replacement though. She’s very different, but I’ve always thought that the Master should understand the Doctor at a basic level. I think Gomez (and her script) conveyed that feeling that she understood her old friend only too well. And she was trying to welcome him to her own team. To prove that childhood point.

How the ?u%& did he do that?

It’s pretty all much good. You could question how he escaped a time loop designed to trap Axos while he was still in it, but the Doctor has been shown to break through timeloops himself by will. A Groundhog Day idea on Doctor Who would really be short lived 😀


47 comments

  1. Here’s my ranking

    1) Pratt/Beevers

    2) Delgado

    3) Ainley

    4) Jacobi

    5) Roberts

    (big gap)

    6) The other two

    Sorry I just found Simm and Gomez incredibly irritating. Yes Eric Roberts was ridiculously camp as well, but at least he was entertaining (well, to me at least). As much as I love Delgado, I just find the Pratt/Beevers Master creepy as hell, hence why he’s my favorite. Ainley may have been served some rubbish scripts but he always seemed to put effort into his performance and he was great in Survival. I would have ranked Jacobi over him had he been The Master for more than 5 minutes at the end.

  2. Great to have this here. Thanks for posting Mr Shift. (Boringly, I wouldn’t argue with your ranking at all).

    @TheKrynoidMan Sorry that Missy’s not doing it for you (especially as I suspect she’ll be back!). I thought Gomez did an amazing job, all little quirks, sideways glances, superficial psychopathic charm, playfulness convincingly turning into full-on mean in a second.  And she and Capaldi look like they might very well have the kind of rapport Delgado and Pertwee had.  Pratt/Beevers version was definitely creepy, but (obv!) without the smooth physical charm that was in the original concept of the Master.

    I absolutely loved Derek Jacobi in the role, however fleeting!  But I agree that the Master and the Doctor need to be 2 sides of a coin.  A Jacobi/John Hurt pairing would be awesomeness beyond my wildest imaginings 😉

    @JimtheFish Agree with you re the trainspotting graphic – it’s a master(ahem!)piece 😀

  3. Hive Mind – What is the best Delgado Master story?  I have seen Terror of the Autons, which was good, but it was primarily an introduction. Which serial features Delgado at the height of his powers?  Thanks in advance.

  4. Xmas comes early, @PhaseShift makes another fantastic list!

    Bonkers theory, Santa makes lists and we now know is probably a time lord, but until now I never thought he might be the Master?!?

    Maybe the Master is good only one night a year? Now that’s a scary thought! 😆

    Michelle Gomez has to coming back as Missy, so I’m not buying the regeneration to Santa theory.

    @TheKrynoidMan your lists are always surprising, which makes them fun to read. As always very nice reasoning to support your choices, I prefer Roberts’ Master over Simm’s too. But I must admit that it was hard to take your eyes off of Simm’s Master, because I didn’t know what crazy superpower he was going to do next. Eric Roberts plays a pretty good bad guy at times, I thought he was great in Batman Begins.

    I haven’t seen all of other Masters to make a complete list, so I’m going with PhaseShift’s list for the rest, since I too would put Missy second behind Delgado at number one.

    I will never figure out how Missy is not higher than Robert’s Master on TheKrynoidMan’s list. But a bold move none the less. 🙂

  5. Ditto on not having seen all the masters in terms of really being able to do a proper listing
    But I am partial to Derek Jacobi cause of the way he blended that ‘sweet’ man into the Master
    and how he held the watch in his hand looking completely shaken by the realization of what
    it contained was a bit of brilliance -I love the Missy version but can she match Jacobi’s
    range in her performance ? So far the scripting hasn’t demanded that of her yet IMHO – but
    she’s lovely in the role all the same!

  6. Correction: Eric Roberts is in The Dark Knight, not Batman Begins.

    I wish Jacobi got more time as the Master, and I really like PhaseShift’s and ScaryB’s idea for a Jacobi/Hurt match up.  I think it would fit the into the time lines perfectly too, without the need for dreaded technobabble.  Since the Master was sent back to Gallifrey at about the same time the Doctor became the War Doctor. 

     

  7. Re-Correction: Argh! PhaseShift is right about the War Doctor/Doctor’s memory loss of the Master needs to be explained somehow. Everything else would fit.

     

  8. @TheKrynoidMan – Sorry for the miscommunication. I meant it as a compliment for your bold pick. I congradulate you for taking a controversial stand.  Like I said I like reading your lists, because I like surprises.

  9. @TheKrynoidMan – I knew your list would be much different than mine.   Now the surprise is when we agree on anything. 😆

    It really is fun reading your reviews.  Your top pick Pratt/Beevers’ Masters look awesome, I can’t wait to see them now.

  10. Woot woot a Master and Missy thread

    My only problem with Missy (hoping this comes out a positive negative point) is her name. That is the fault of her earlier name, the Doctor is absolutely gender neutral as is the Corsair but the Master duh obviously male (obviously noone in the 60’s and 70’s thought of gender swapping regeneration). Could so easily have been sorted as 7 always hated being called the Professor and if Missy/Master would surely pick a name like that to be one up on the Doctor and it would explain the Doctor’s dislike

    Anyway……

    Missy absolutely nailed the new bonkers bananas bad Timelord as the descent from suave villain with Delgado to nut nut Sims portrayals.

    My favourite has to be the one and only Delgado,  chilling but ohh how utterly likeable tight up to the point he’d kill you.

    Second on scare factor as I still see that face in my minds eye and had nightmares about it the skull faced Master

    I will do a proper countdown (Alan Fluff Freeman music playing in my head!!!!) over the weekend when at home…..

  11. Delgado is the definitive Master obviously but I wouldn’t say there are any particularly standout Master stories — Autons is a great introduction. I think Daemons is their best but they just light up the screen together and Delgado often makes what would have been a mediocre story — I’d argue that a big part of the reason the Pertwee era is so warmly remembered is down to Delgado. Look at Frontier in Space or The Time Monster — pretty dodgy or at least pretty ordinary stories that he totally saves.

    For me the Pratt/Beevers Master is certainly creepy and striking but is just not the Master to me. No charm. No subtlety. I think he tends towards generic lurking-in-the-shadows Who bogeyman too much.

    Personally I love Missy and I think Gomez has managed to capture what Simm tried and just failed to. No reflection on Simm but I just don’t think they’d quite figured out where they wanted to go with the character. I think as @phaseshift says, I think it helps that Gomez is so good at playing nutters. Simm was playing against type a bit too much to be truly convincing.

  12. @TheKrynoidMan    I wouldn’t call your view controversial as much as dissenting! I liked Missy for the most part, but preferred her when she leaned to the serious side. Admittedly not loving the flirtatious angle, but that seems to be the way things get written these days. And her characterization seems to me to follow directly off of her predecessor in many ways, so there’s a logic to it.

    @Rob     “Missy” is a bit of an unfortunate name for me as well. And this statement about Delgado:     chilling but ohh how utterly likeable tight up to the point he’d kill you.   Really well put! And Gomez certainly channels a bit of this as well.

  13. @Barnable I wish Jacobi got more time as the Master

    Jacobi has my all time favourite master line , whispered by the Watch before he gets his memories back:

    “Open the light and summon me and receive my majesty!”

    It just has all the arrogance and lunatic ferocity of a tortured genie demanding to be set free from its prison.

  14. Bit busy today, so haven’t had time to contribute to this splendid blog as much as I’d like. However, on the ‘Missy’ conundrum – I think they had four options.

    1. Change the character’s name entirely, preferably to something used before. ‘The Professor’?
    2. Keep ‘The Master’.
    3. Go with ‘The Mistress’
    4. Shorten it to a nickname. Luckily, shortening ‘The Mistress’ results in the perfectly genuine nickname of ‘Missy’.

    Now, three of them have obvious problems.

    1. If they change the character’s name, those ‘fans’ who hate and detest the idea of Time Lords being able to change sex will insist that The Professor is just pretending to be The Master. She’s probably the Rani.
    2. Sadly, I don’t think the world is yet ready for ‘Master’ as a gender-neutral term.;-)
    3. Pick this one and you might as well tell Michelle Gomez her costume is black leather and a whip. 😯
    4. This is close enough to ‘The Master’, but sufficiently different that no one is quite sure until the big reveal.

    Realistically? It’s Option No. 4, people. 😀

  15. @Bluesqueakpip     Agreed that they probably didn’t have much choice about the name, as you are right on all points. I just wish that “Missy” sounded a little less like a gender biased girl’s toy.    🙂   Oh, well, we will just have to judge her on her behaviour rather than her name!

    I also meant to say, in my earlier post, that I agree with everyone on Derek Jacobi’s excellence in his brief appearance. Such a shame they couldn’t have kept him on for the second half of that story. Of course, it probably would have meant rewriting a great deal of the story, as the character would have been completely different. But he was wonderful, so charming and loveable as Yana, and so absolutely chilling as the Master!

     

  16. @Phaseshift What a splendid post.

    The Doctor and the Master are a take on Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty are they not, but with a twist more twisted love gone wrong in the mix.

    My least favourite Master scene was definitely Tenant crying over Sim’s body, and it should have been glorious, that tenderness between the Master and the Doctor, but it was too hammy for my taste and I didn’t buy the chemistry between them, whereas Gomez and Capaldi would sizzle and slay a similar scene.

    Hee hee, I have a secret fondness for the Master in the Who movie – he was SO camp that he entered the realms of a Flash Gordon character and I kind of liked that, but wow, he seems dated now.

    I’m also hoping we haven’t seen the last of Missy.

  17. @BadWulf – That does sound like the perfect message the Master would record for himself before using the watch.

    Although, now that @JimtheFish mentions it, I do hope he wasn’t wearing a bathrobe at the time! Yikes!!! :mrgreen:

  18. @JimtheFish @ScaryB

    Thanks for the compliments over the graphic. I think I cocked up Delgado, which is a bit unfortunate, but I may revisit. I’d actually like to post some clips if possible highlighting certain performances.

    I think I should explain the Trainspotting reference, because at face value it’s “what the hell”. I was trying to think of background music to compile this list. I wanted to supplement @bluesqueakpip s excellent point about the Masters habit of survival, and seeking to survive way after Death. The first track to jump to mind (and apologies to @whisht for posting the link here) was “Lust for Life”. Hence Trainspotting, and why I thought the idea of their poster, with Masters, would be hilarious.

    Iggy Pop-Lust for Life

    The line “Well…that’s like hypnotising Chickens.” Made me laugh. A lot.

  19. @drben

    If I had to recommend one to the newer watcher for Delgado, I’d pick the first one I saw. The Daemons. It was shown way after his death at the 20th anniversary in 1983, and was my first actual viewing of him.

    It has a lot to recommend it:

    – Delgado gets some lovely character moments as a Vicar, and dabbling with OTT with his Dennis Wheatley’isms as the leader of a Coven.
    – The face off moments between him and Pertwee/Jo Grant/UNIT are suburb.
    – It’s a story in which every major character gets a good part. Benton gets to shine. The Brig barks his most famous lines.
    – You get to see the original Lethbridge Stewart give the original Osgood an earful.
    – Love saves the day.

    What more would someone want? 🙂

    I’ll also echo @JimTheFish in saying that it’s worth watching all the stories he’s in, because even if the story is pish, he and Pertwee are on top form. Claws of Axos gets some flack but I love it. Mind of Evil has some great character work as the Master taunts the Doctor, and then seems deeply concerned that he’s gone too far. Sea Devils needs to be watched. Just for the Clangers, which years later the show would echo with Simm watching the Teletubbies. I think Delgado was a short term gift to the show. He’s pretty fantastic. His widow’s only comment on the Who phenomenon was how utterly thrilled he was about the characters success with Children.

    Because – all those letters from Children, begging him to change. That must have signalled the chance for redemption? They saw something in the character that he (and potentially the Doctor) did.

  20. @thekrynoidman

    By all means go for it with your Video, and I look forward to your results. I think I encountered the (printed word) Delgado Master shortly before the “Skeletor Master” on TV, and making those balace (as @JimTheFish said) is difficult. #2 – #5 on our list are not regenerations as such, still clinging onto that half life.

    As conceived, The Master should have the potential to BE the Doctor. Or his Dalk half. I think this is where some of the characterisiations fall down. In particular the Pratt/Beevers Master was generic evil. It was interesting that some viewers saw the masked figure in Talons of Weng Chiang in the retrospetive and thought – Master. Let’s be honest, you could have supplemented them with minor arrangements in a story and never noticed).

    For all the good work they do, without the charm, they really can’t approach figures like Delgado.

  21. Just to add that I’ve always thought it a shame that we’ve never seen a multiple Master story, the way we’ve several multi-Doctor ones. Obviously it’s never really been possible although maybe it’s been tried in one of the books?

  22. @Juniperfish

    My least favourite Master scene was definitely Tenant crying over Sim’s body, and it should have been glorious, that tenderness between the Master and the Doctor, but it was too hammy for my taste and I didn’t buy the chemistry between them, whereas Gomez and Capaldi would sizzle and slay a similar scene.

    That really is appalling. No wonder the Master willed himself to death. 🙂

    Hee hee, I have a secret fondness for the Master in the Who movie – he was SO camp that he entered the realms of a Flash Gordon character and I kind of liked that, but wow, he seems dated now.

    …and this is why I laugh at the Roberts Master sometimes. I have a theory that Eric Roberts desperately wanted to play Doctor FranknFurter in a revival of the Rocky Horror Show. It would be brilliant. Possibly not for a revival of Doctor Who, but nonetheless…

    .”..And Flash Gordon was there in silver underwear,
    Claude Raines was the invisible man.”

    I actually took my nieces to see a live show (with Chris Biggins as the Narrator) a few years ago, which raised a few laughs. But there is something immensely haunting about a few thousand people singing the lines above (and many more). A hymn to a lost age of innocence in Sci-Fi. And something furtive. In the back row, obv. 😉

  23. @Phaseshift That sounds like a great thing for an eccentric uncle to do 🙂

    My other favourite camp sci-fi movie is the incomparable Barbarella. I re-watch it periodically with a dear friend, equally charmed by its 60s absurdity and joie de vivre.

  24. @Phaseshift and @Juniperfish

    No wonder the Master willed himself to death.

    It was the Doctor’s speech, I swear. Tennant did his best, but anyone facing the prospect of more of those sanctimonious speeches would have pleaded for death. I always felt that the Master was hugely relieved (if a little surprised) when Lucy shot him. 😉

  25. @JimTheFish Just to add that I’ve always thought it a shame that we’ve never seen a multiple Master story, the way we’ve several multi-Doctor ones. Obviously it’s never really been possible although maybe it’s been tried in one of the books?

    That’s such an awesome idea – I’m sure it could be possible with Jacobi, Simm and Gomez – I demand that Moffat get on with this concept immediately!

  26. @Bluesqueakpip It was the Doctor’s speech, I swear. Tennant did his best, but anyone facing the prospect of more of those sanctimonious speeches would have pleaded for death. I always felt that the Master was hugely relieved (if a little surprised) when Lucy shot him. ;-)

    Too true! – 10’s speechifying could put Picard to shame sometimes. Funny coming from someone who in a previous incarnation could out-callous Janeway when tossing guards into vats of acid.

  27. I remember being absolutely satisfied when the Master chose to die rather than live as the Doctor’s prisoner, even though, rationally, it didn’t make a lot of sense, because the Master was always about life at all costs, and surely he would have been sure of eventually finding a way to escape? But I liked the way his words to the Doctor suggested that the Doctor was really a bit deluded!

  28. I have just watched both Time Monster and Daemons again and I am sorry but I have to put Michelle Gomez at number one and John Simm narrowly second – Roger Delgado is good but for me  is a bit cartoonish (sorry). For stark raving evilness and yet weak needingfulness  I think these two very much outdo Delgado. He only really called on the Doctor when his very existence needed it, and I saw there was no deep link in his view of their relationship. In my opinion both Simm and Gomez have added that desire/need to be be understood/loved  as another side of the hatred the Master has for the Doctor. In the two stories I have just revisited the Doctor was an annoyance in , and not an actual reason for the Masters efforts. In the later episodes we see the relationship between the two explored and revealed. Maybe it is the way we view evil nowadays – there is a deep seated problem or problematic relationship at the heart of the conflict whereas in the past evil was just plain evil and needed no explanation. I think we are better off now, and maybe these later actors benefit.

  29. Hello Otherstuff,

    Nice post, some interesting thoughts on the Master rankings, but some of your reasoning is questionable (I think?). 

    I mainly disagree that Simm’s Master changed that much from Delgado’s. Missy has changed (obviously 🙂 ), but I’m not sure if her motives have as you say.

    The motives of Simm’s Master are no different than Delgado’s Master.  Their Masters are motivated by power.

    (Simm’s power MO was used for Rassilon’s purposes, but the Master’s power MO wasn’t changed, instead it was what Rassilon’s plan depended on).

    Simm does want the Doctor’s help and sympathy, but that is nothing new to the Master. Simm’s Master uses the Doctor’s sympathy to get help, similar to the way Delgado does in The Time Monster to escape and other stories when the Master runs out of options.

    Cartoonish-ness and believability is different for every person, so that is just a matter of opinion really. But imo, Simm’s Master was the most cartoonish (unrealistic) I’ve seen yet. His performance was way over-the-top compared to Delgado’s and I still have a hard time explaining where all Simm’s superpowers came from? Delgado only had his hypnosis power. So to me, Delgado was completely believable as a bad guy and made it look effortless. Just looking at him you just knew he was bad.

    Michelle Gomez seems to have the same ability to be the baddy. I thought she was creepy the moment I saw her in Deep Breath. So I agree Gomez is a great Master so far, but I don’t think she should be considered the best Master ever yet, based on just one real performance. But with more time, she might pass up Delgado on my list too.

    I doubt that the Master/Missy’s motives have changed at all. It has only been one episode where “Missy said or seems like” she wants the Doctor’s – understanding? /friendship? /respect? – but that could just be a lie, and her real motivation is power like it always has been. In that case, the Master/Missy wanting the Doctor’s admiration is nothing new. The admiration is for the Master’s own ego, just like new Sherlock Holmes says, “The frailty of genius is it needs an audience.” 

    Missy does seem a little more insane than Delgado’s Master. The Master killed people with his ray-gun all the time without a second thought, just like Missy.  However, Missy seems to enjoy now, which I think is new? Delgado didn’t seem to care at all when he did it. Both are pretty scary, but I agree that liking it feels more evil.

  30. Spoiler, Spoiler, Spoiler.

    @Everyone, Don’t read the last above post if you haven’t seen The Time Monster.  @PhaseShift – maybe that part should be edited?

    @Otherstuff – Sorry I missed the tag on the above post.

  31. @Otherstuff – On this forum, details about episodes from 1972 could be considered spoilers, if the details aren’t posted on the right thread.   Many people haven’t seen the BG episodes yet.  I haven’t seen most of them either.  So details should be posted on the correct thread so people can avoid them if they want to.  The DW wiki is a good example, since people who worry about spoilers would never go there and have fair warning to avoid that wiki.  This is the Master thread, so maybe details about Master episodes isn’t a spoiler, but it is close I think.  So I just wanted to warn people because they might not be expecting it.

  32. @Barnable @Otherstuff

    I haven’t seen The Time Monster yet – so I’m trying to stay spoiler free! (luckily, I skim-read the post, so I am still spoiler-free)

    I have a rational hatred of spoilers – ever since I read the novelisation of Return of the Jedi, which I think spoilt the movie experience for me – so thank you for the warning Barnable!

    (Aside – I *always* seem to commit the typo “spolier”, which then makes me think I’m being “spolier than thou”…)

  33. RE. spoilers. I know I’m less sensitive about spoilers than some and I tend to think that a couple of weeks after transmission is my personal cut-off dates for worrying about spoilage. But I definitely don’t consider discussing plot details of stories transmitted in the 70s to be in any way considered as ‘spoilers’. Just my view tho….

  34. @JimtheFish I agree -if it’s that long ago I don’t think it’s a problem unless it’s specific to a discussion about The 1st episode of the Curse of Fenric, though, and in-house we want to avoid that type of discussion when the point is to specifically watch it in imitation of the ‘old ways’ 🙂 airing once a week.

  35. Okay, let’s say a few words in defence of John Simm’s Master.

    I think a lot of the stick he gets is because his Master is not written as Roger Delgado Mk. III, and he doesn’t play it as Roger Delgado Mk. III. His Master is as different from Delgado as Christopher Eccleston’s Doctor is different from Jon Pertwee.

    And people were not expecting that. Delgado placed such a stamp on the character that when the Master returned in his non-corpse form, Ainley basically got handed a ‘Delgado Mk. II’ brief. The Simm Master wasn’t black haired and didn’t have a beard (well, he had a wife). He was also, unlike both Delgado and Ainley, definitely, incontestably, utterly bugfuck.

    And he didn’t like it. Not a happy guy, our Simm Master, except when he was in his manic phases. He’s probably the one and only Master who, just now and then, looks like he’s going to burst into tears. This is where I’d disagree with @Phaseshift – the difference between the Simm Master and the Gomez Missy isn’t that one actor is sane and the other is bonkers [no actor is really sane 😉 ]. It’s that the Simm Master knows they’re insane – and feels unhappy about it, bitter about it, and very, very pissed off.

    Missy, however, knows she’s bananas – and couldn’t give a rats arse. This is one Time Lady who’s well and truly out of the closet. 😉

  36. @Bluesqueakpip

    [Simm’s] Master is not written as Roger Delgado Mk. III

    I agree it’s not John Simm’s fault, his acting wasn’t bad. They were just taking the character in a new direction.

    The Simm Master knows they’re insane – and feels unhappy about it, bitter about it, and very, very pissed off. Missy, however, knows she’s bananas – and couldn’t give a rats arse.

    I think you nailed it! That is the difference between being bad and being evil.

    The Delgado Master wasn’t insane – meaning he knew exactly what he was doing and was in control of his actions. He did bad things, and liked it (and couldn’t give a rats arse if others didn’t). That makes him evil.

    Simm’s Master was insane – Rassilon was influencing his actions. Simm’s was pissed off and trying to fight it, so not in complete control. He did bad things, but he was unhappy about it. That is not evil. That is just a sick person who needs medical help (or the Doctor’s help 🙂 ).

    That’s the main problem with the Simm Master, imo. He’s not evil.

    Missy is insane too, but she has the same attitude as the Delgado Master. Missy probably needs medical help, which means she is probably not in control either. But to me she definitely looks like she knows exactly what she is doing and is in complete control. So Missy has brought the evil back!

    I am starting to like the Simm Master a little more in this context, since his story shows how the Master went insane, which is what made Missy possible. 😉

    @JimTheFish – Thx for the spoiler post. This Forum is really good at no spoilers, so I just didn’t want to ruin other people’s fun.

    I have avoided all BG spoilers so far. It probably sounds unbelievable to people in the UK, but I really don’t know anything about 50 year old shows! I never even heard of DW until 5 years ago. I’m watching BG episodes now, and I think I’m discovering something new. Kinda like Columbus discovering America. XD

  37. Doing something mind-numbing at work, so I have The Daemons on my second screen at the recommendation of @PhaseShift – just finished the first episode.  I must say that, as a pagan dude, I find it pretty damned hilarious. 🙂

  38. @DrBen

    I must say that, as a pagan dude, I find it pretty damned hilarious.

    But in a positive way, I hope!

    I love the end of the first episode of The Daemons. Sort of a cross between Quatermass and the Pit and the British Museum scene in The Mummy Returns. In fact I love the whole story. One of Pertwee’s best and perhaps the best Roger Delgado. But since you are only just embarking on it…no spoilers

  39. @blenkinsopthebrave – But in a positive way, I hope!

    Definitely!  So much scenery chewing!  The crazy old country witch and the Master’s Crowley-like incantations.  Completely ridiculous and thoroughly amusing. 🙂

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