S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor
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Craig 13 years, 2 months ago.
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22 May 2013 at 18:03 #10374
@satsumajoe Iv just discovered its a fan made trailer. so spoiler averted. I try my best to avoid all Who related info for as long as i can but kind of take trailers and “next time” bits as a given. But im all about the speculation from here on out 😉
22 May 2013 at 18:13 #10375– “I wondered whether the tardis Clara tried to get into, and failed [in RoA], was the original”
“Wow, now there’s a thought – you mean, from the time the Doctor was there before, with Susan?”
Exactly 🙂
22 May 2013 at 18:33 #10381Anybody have any thoughts on Hurt Doctor maybe being the Valeyard and trying to take all of the Doctors regens from his time line to become some sort of uber Time Lord?!
not sure if i like it or not.
22 May 2013 at 19:12 #10390@misspawsintime – Thank you for reminding me about the leaf with River’s name woven into it!! (and welcome) @brotherjohn and I think River is one of ClaraPrime’s echoes, and this leaf connection is another link! So, Clara said that the leaf was more than a leaf, it was the ‘first page’, and we find the identity of River revealed on a leaf. Clara was blown into this world on a leaf, and River was revealed to those she loves through a leaf.
22 May 2013 at 19:14 #1039122 May 2013 at 19:29 #10392@budinacup – Lorna Bucket (in A Good Man Goes To War) embroiders a prayer leaf with the name of Amy and Rory’s baby. The Tardis translates the name “Melody Pond” as “River Song”, this proving to all that River is in fact the Ponds’ missing baby.
22 May 2013 at 19:32 #10393Oh yeah! i thought i missed her name on an ACTUAL leaf! Doh!
22 May 2013 at 20:19 #10394‘no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer’
the Doctor did not answer, the GI asked over and over–he refused–so who has to ask so that “no living creature can speak fasely of fail to answer” and maybe the question was not to just open the tomb–maybe the question is really still to come
22 May 2013 at 20:21 #10395‘no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer’
the Doctor did not answer, the GI asked over and over–he refused–so who has to ask so that “no living creature can speak fasely of fail to answer” and maybe the question was not to just open the tomb–maybe the question is really still to come
Hang on, wasn’t the question essentially Doctor Who? River answered but she isn’t a living creature anymore.
22 May 2013 at 20:24 #10396@janisthorns 2 possible options.
1. The whispermen were going to kill all of the Doctors friends, therefore he could not speak falsely or fail to answer.
2. (and my preference) That the question (Doctor Who?) will be asked on the fields of Trensalor in the 50th anniversary. It will be there that we learn the doctors real name, and that the person who is asking will learn of the Hurt Doctor.
22 May 2013 at 20:44 #10398Anonymous @
@chickenelly — absolutely. I think Dorium’s prophecy has now been fulfilled personally…
22 May 2013 at 21:03 #10400Agree – Dorium’s prophecy fulfilled in remarkable detail for a prophecy!
At the Fields of Trenzalore – check
At the fall of the Eleventh – check (ie the place where Eleven fell, doesn’t say he will fall this time)
Where no living creature may speak falsely or fail to answer, a question will be asked (and then Dorium does his big dramatic “Dr Who???”) – check – the GI asks the question “What is your name?” and as agreed above, no-one living (River) answers it, but she says the answer out of earshot.
I went through the scene again and it is clearly the Dr’s name which opens the door (He says “I didn’t say it, I didn’t say my name” as he’s wondering why the doors have opened and River says something along the lines of “Good job the Tardis can still here me”
In the Dr’s defence River took the decision out of his hands (well his mouth), the Dr wouldn’t have let his friends die, having gone all the way to Trenzalore (the one place he should never ever go) to rescue them.
22 May 2013 at 21:07 #10401Going back to Dorium’s prophecy – did it actually come from the Silence? I thought it was something he’d heard “around”. Haven’t watched for ages though.
22 May 2013 at 21:59 #10406<waves @budinacup> Hail fellow angel 😉 (love the pic)
22 May 2013 at 22:01 #10407Hang on, though, @chickenelly, @jimthefish, @scaryb –
“no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer”
Depends on how you parse that sentence. The Doctor is a living creature, and he didn’t speak falsely (i.e., lie) – but he sure did fail to answer.
Or, is that ‘no living creature’ to be interpreted as ‘not living’? Because then with River doing the deed, the prophesy is fulfilled. But that’s plainly nonsense, no-one says ‘no living’ to mean ‘not living’.
Therefore, because the Doctor failed to answer the question, I don’t think we’ve actually seen Dorium’s prophesy come true – does that mean we don’t care, because something timey-wimey happened – or does it mean there is another question still to be answered?
Or … is River considered to be a ‘living creature’ because she lives on (in a sense) in the Library?
22 May 2013 at 22:15 #10409I had wondered about that very point, a dead person/creature could lie but difficult to tell in the Whoniverse! Of course, it could be referring to Clara’s question ‘Who is he?’ – a second instance of the question according to Dorium – in the timestream.
22 May 2013 at 22:34 #10411“In the Dr’s defence River took the decision out of his hands (well his mouth), the Dr wouldn’t have let his friends die, having gone all the way to Trenzalore (the one place he should never ever go) to rescue them.”
I agree that the Doctor would not have let anyone die but do you think it was amiss of River to open the door for him? I saw it as a kindness on her part – sparing him from having to say his name aloud. A name that He has kept a guarded secret even among his closest companions.
Good thoughts on the prophecy though – at first watch I thought that was that and now that can of worms is open again
22 May 2013 at 22:35 #10413phew – got to the end of the ‘main’ thread!
But now looks like activity dissipating out toward the other threads (a natural movement).
[deep breath] Right – onward!!
.
y’know – I’m spending longer reading these posts than watching the actual episodes!
;¬)
22 May 2013 at 22:44 #10416But isn’t that the very nature of prophecies in literature, certainly. That they’re always fulfilled but not in the way that you would think they would. For instance, Shakespeare is full of such tricksy prophecies. Not least of which in Macbeth…
22 May 2013 at 22:47 #10417“no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer”
Actually now I come to think of it, living or dead is irrelevant. The question was asked (by Simeon) “Doctor Who?” and answered (by River). The prophecy didn’t specify who would answer, just that it would be answered. And we know it was answered because the Tardis doors open and the Dr reacts. We (and Simeon) didn’t hear the answer, but the Tardis did. Watch the scene again. There’s no “grave.. discovered..” type syntax gaps.
Doesn’t mean we won’t ever come back to Trenzalore earlier in its timestream though. Or it might be left dangling… Dorium’s prophecy is fulfilled, but there’s still the question of which Dr actually did die there.
@tournikate – that’s just River, she may have prior lnowledge but her instincts are usually pretty good. Or she couldn’t stand the stress. OTOH she knew she had the solution (Dr’s name) and could say it without it being heard. Maybe she knew they had to get into the Tardis, or she was guessing and just trying to buy time.
22 May 2013 at 22:48 #1041822 May 2013 at 22:50 #10420Agree – prophecies are notoriously tricksy things to be having truck with! (this one seemed less tricksy than most, as it turned out)
22 May 2013 at 22:58 #10422Speaking about the tricksy nature of prophecies, the one in Harry Potter, which is supposed to foretell the person who will bump of Voldemort, I’m still convinced actually refers to Snape.
I might be alone in thinking that however.
22 May 2013 at 23:00 #10423Are you mad? Don’t say his name out loud 😉
22 May 2013 at 23:00 #10424DORIUM: “On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered.”
THE DOCTOR: “Silence will fall when the question is asked…”
DORIUM: “”Silence must fall” would be a better translation. The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore.”
When I saw the episode my first thought was that this had nothing to do with it, as it was not at the fall of the Eleventh, it was set after it. I think it may have been @bluesqueakpip (sorry if I’m wrong) that said “at the fall of the Eleventh” could be a location i.e. the now massive TARDIS, but I don’t think that’s correct as it is followed up by “when…” which seems to point to a time of a fall.
I know Moffat popped in a bit of slight-of-hand with his “We don’t jump, we fall” gag, but it seems to me to be mis-direction.
I think there must be a return to Trenzalore and a real fall of the Eleventh.
Just throwing this out there. If the Hurt Doctor is between 2 and 3, or between 8 and 9, etc. but does not currently have a number, and if the events of part 2 bring him back into the fold, see him forgiven, then it could be Tennant’s Doctor who meets his end on Trenzalore, meaning Smith can carry on. Timey wimey etc…
22 May 2013 at 23:08 #10426oops, I just realised I added in a bit, jumped to assuming it’s 11 who dies at T, when that’s not confirmed (dammit! thought we had a bit of it nailed!). But I think it’s close enough for a prophecy.
I agree we’re likely due a visit back there tho, and a bit of sleight of hand involving HurtDr and numbering. Can’t be Tennant though, unless you’re thinking of extending his farewell tour…!
OTOH We’ve yet to see if Trenzalore has changed as a result of the Dr jumping into his timestream etc. Do we know if we are in the past or the future btw (relative to our time). We’re all assuming it’s in the future, but maybe we went back in time….
22 May 2013 at 23:09 #10427the Valeyard is an amalgamation of all 13–so he can influence all the Doctors
22 May 2013 at 23:11 #10428hm @craig – on the fields of Trenzalore, presuming the Hurt Doctor gets out of the timeline with the 11th and Clara, no one had better ask him who he is.
Clara: “Who are you?”
HurtDr: “I’m the Doctor”
MattDr: “No you’re not; I am. You don’t deserve that name. You can’t use it”
Clara: “So, who are you?”
“I’m…… [insert doctor’s gallifreyan name, leading to silence falling and general “not good stuff” happening].
Clara: “yep, thought it was you; saw you in a book.”
[River descends from above the stage in a machine/chariot and waves everything bad away. General gnashing of fan-teeth]
;¬)
22 May 2013 at 23:13 #10429@scaryb Surely he can do “I don’t want to go” just one more time! Just for us? 😀
And if there are 2 Doctors can there be 2 TRADISs, one to die at Trenzalore, the other to continue on her voyage with the newly annointed 12th Doctor?
22 May 2013 at 23:15 #1043122 May 2013 at 23:31 #10436But… but…! Where does the 2nd Tardis come from? Either HurtDr inherits it when he regenerates (is born) or, if he’s a sideways anomaly eg from 10’s hand, then he’s Tardisless. Matt is the current incumbent in The Doctor role (meta wise and actually!) so he gets the Tardis to play with.
Depends where he and the HurtDr meet though – assuming they do. There could be a scenario where there’s 2 (different) Drs and 2 tardises in the same place, same time – sounds very paradoxical.
23 May 2013 at 00:03 #10441Maybe the van Gogh painting isn’t two Tardii colliding, maybe it’s one Tardis splitting into two.
23 May 2013 at 00:19 #10442On a minor note (Trenzalore is starting to make my head hurt) – am I to take it that the never-explained switch between TARDIS desktops between Angels in Manhattan and The Snowmen was a result of The Great Continuity War?
23 May 2013 at 00:25 #10443@whohar –
Maybe the van Gogh painting isn’t two Tardii colliding, maybe it’s one Tardis splitting into two.
I was just looking at the painting last night because people were saying there were 3 Tardis’s in it. I don’t think there are 3 or even 2. I think it’s simply 1 exploding. A panel from the side is breaking off to the right, and the lower part of the door with the sign is breaking off to the left.
23 May 2013 at 00:34 #10444Sorry, I did not read all posts, but I just found a way the GI could know about the Doctor but the Doctor not about the GI. Its the same Timeline as with River in SitL (sorry I know I refer a lot to River). The GI knows the Doctor from earlier in its live but the Doctor knows the GI form later in his lafe (originally). What we have seen is the GI already interfering. Because Clara is already interfering. So he doesent know because it had not happened yet but the GI knows because it has already happened. Makes that sense?
23 May 2013 at 00:35 #10445On a minor note (Trenzalore is starting to make my head hurt) – am I to take it that the never-explained switch between TARDIS desktops between Angels in Manhattan and The Snowmen was a result of The Great Continuity War?
Now there’s a thought!
Right am off, my head’s exploding like multiple tardis(es) again.. 1 into 2, huh? <hmmm>
23 May 2013 at 00:39 #10446@timeloop, Good thinking, but it doesn’t work. Matt Smith’s incarnation comes after Troughton’s, and the first encounter with the GI was with the 2nd Dr (The Abominable Snowmen and Web of Fear). But it could certainly be down to the GI interfering
23 May 2013 at 00:49 #10448@scaryb Is there no possiblity that Clara could have interfered in the first meeting with 2nd Doc? If we saw that form a viewpoint were Tranzalore already happened it could work … ._.
23 May 2013 at 01:02 #10449@craig –
When I saw the episode my first thought was that this had nothing to do with it, as it was not at the fall of the Eleventh, it was set after it. I think it may have been @bluesqueakpip(sorry if I’m wrong) that said “at the fall of the Eleventh” could be a location i.e. the now massive TARDIS, but I don’t think that’s correct as it is followed up by “when…” which seems to point to a time of a fall.
I don’t think the prophecy, as written here, says either way whether “at the fall of the eleventh” means a place or a time. Depends on where you place the breaks. “Eats, shoots, and leaves” vs “Eats shoots and leaves”…
On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh when no living creature...
… implies it’s a time.
On the fields of Trenzalore at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature…
…implies a place.
On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature…
… with breaks on either side, implies it could be either. It’s a standalone statement, one of three descriptors of the time and place.
On the fields of Trenzalore… is pretty literal.
…at the fall of the Eleventh… Could be a more narrowing down a location on the fields of Trenzalore, or specifying a time. I think the “fall” of the Doctor’s Tardis IS the location where the actual fall (in the tardis) took place, and not a red herring. I think the red herring was the initial prophecy, with everyone thought it would mean his death. I don’t think they’re going to follow red herring with red herring.
…when no living creature… is clearly a time.
Being as this is a prophecy, I think it’s satisfied by the situation we saw. It sounds awfully poetic to be literal. I think the doctor was was the one who couldn’t fail to answer, and he would have spoken to save his friends, but River did so first.
In short, I think the prophecy has happened.
The Silence said “silence MUST fall when the question is asked”. As Dorium interpreted it, the Silence did NOT want the Doctor to ever show up at Trenzalore. They wanted him him to be silent. They wanted no one to ever be able to answer the question.
Answering the question opened the tomb, which led to three people jumping into the (future, dead) Doctor’s timestream, which led to exposure of the Hurt Doctor.
The Hurt Doctor is now exposed, and at least possibly can escape. This is why the name was so important.
The 50th will be the fight to prevent him from doing so and/or causing whatever havoc he is supposed to cause.
23 May 2013 at 01:04 #10450Is there no possiblity that Clara could have interfered in the first meeting with 2nd Doc? If we saw that form a viewpoint were Tranzalore already happened it could work … ._.
Well now, that is of course the big unknown
😀
23 May 2013 at 01:09 #10451The van Gogh painting is open to interpretation – like most good art. My initial impression was as yours is, but now I am not so sure. I’ve not looked at it for a while. 1, 2 or 3 Tardii, colliding or exploding, I just hope there is a reasonable explanation. Although – untill we know – it is grist to the bonkers theory mill.
23 May 2013 at 01:14 #10452@whohar –
The van Gogh painting is open to interpretation – like most good art. My initial impression was as yours is, but now I am not so sure. I’ve not looked at it for a while. 1, 2 or 3 Tardii, colliding or exploding, I just hope there is a reasonable explanation. Although – untill we know – it is grist to the bonkers theory mill.
Now we all probably wish Van Gogh was a Realist and not an Impressionist! 🙂
23 May 2013 at 01:16 #10453Agreed – I think the Trenzalore prophecy has happened. Silence did fall – all the stars in the Universe went out. Pretty quiet after that I think.
Of course, all and any theories are now on the table if we add the “Clara did it” clause. The Moff’s pulled a stroke of genius there in terms of potentially negating any event in the Doc’s history that he personally doesn’t like. I’m not sure he’ll use it to any great degree though. It’s an explanation too for the inconsistencies and…and provides infinite possibilities for us bonkers theorists. If we’re not careful we’ll all end up as mad as a whirlpool bath of fishes.
23 May 2013 at 01:53 #10454Now we all probably wish Van Gogh was a Realist and not an Impressionist!
Indeed :-). I wonder though, how he came to paint that in the first place.
23 May 2013 at 02:29 #10455@whohar –
Agreed – I think the Trenzalore prophecy has happened. Silence did fall – all the stars in the Universe went out. Pretty quiet after that I think.
Yes, while we agree the prophecy has happened, I view the meaning of silence here as the opposite. As more properly translated according to Dorian, “Silence MUST fall when the question is asked”. To me, that means “no one says a peep!”
The Silence was tasked with defending “the silence” (making sure no one answers the question). For, if anyone did, all hell would break loose. And now, it will…
The Doctor’s birthname was the key to the Doctor’s lock keeping Hurt Doctor under wraps.
23 May 2013 at 04:29 #10458The whole Silence thing is ripe for such wordplay that I can’t believe Moffat will leave it alone for to much longer.
BTW: your name – you’re not a (Meddling) Monk are you?
23 May 2013 at 04:37 #10459Hey folks; been lurking since Outpost Gallifrey and been a DW fan for around 25 years now. And I just had to sign up to chat about John Hurt as the Doctor. Like many of you, I think he’s the Time War doc, an incarnation between McGann and Eccleston. But there’s some really thrilling symmetry here no one has mentioned yet.
In 2003 the BBC produced the flash animated Doctor Who series Scream of the Shalka on the Doctor Who website. It was originally meant to be official cannon and it starred the Ninth doctor… the Shalka Doctor or REG Doctor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalka_Doctor).
I can see Hurt being this REG Doctor. There are some similarities in wardrobe for one. But that’s nothing compared to the rest of the goodies under the surface here:
1) He’s called the REG Doctor… aka the Richard E. Grant Doctor. That’s right, the actor who plays Dr. Simeon/The Great Intelligence who just brought us face to face with Hurt was the voice of the Doctor himself back in 2003. That’s a pretty strong connection between John Hurt and Shalka. Symmetry!
2) Not only that, but the REG Doctor’s companion is an android body containing the consciousness of the Master. Who voiced this companion??? Oh, I can’t spoil it if you didn’t already know it, you gotta look it up! Symmetry!
3) And given that the Master is a very evil influence, isn’t it highly plausible that he corrupts the (John Hurt) Doctor with his very presence, perhaps goading the Doc into the horrible acts of War? In the short story Feast of the Stone,starring this REG Doctor, the Master’s evil actually awakens a psychic vampire within a cavern the Doctor must then fight; his influence was so strong and pervasive even then. This would be an excellent set up to bring back the Master next season, too… It makes sense that Matt Smith’s Doctor turns his back on the version of himself who teamed up with or was corrupted by the Master.
4) It appears that in the Shalka story, the Doctor’s travels are being forced upon him and that he resents it. If that’s the Time Lords controlling his path, it would fit with the idea that they were using him for the Time War. Another possible connection between current speculation and Shalka.
5) Even more symmetry – we know that David Tennant will be returning for the 50th special. But did you know that he actually had an uncredited voice part as ‘the caretaker’ in Shalka?!
All those tiny tidbits that connect Shalka to what’s happening now, 10 years later, in the tv series is really cool to me. Just had to mention them since they hadn’t been brought up yet.
So I don’t have a clue what happens in the 50th anniversary special. Considering the villains I imagine its got to do with the Time War (yet another reason Hurt is probably the 9th incarnation). However, I do think there’s some fun stuff for the Doctor to work through next season. Imagine the John Hurt Doctor earning his redemption by somehow thwarting the return of the Valeyard. You could weave that timeline through the whole series. The Master coming back and explaining his part of the Time War. Clara knowing the Doctor’s true name. And I’ll always be hoping for a comeback of a classic Doctor Who or two.
Anyway, just excited about the possibilities. Glad to read all of your thoughts on it!
23 May 2013 at 05:42 #10462Maybe the war that the Silence are fighting/were fighting was against the Hurt Doctor. All the references in recent years to the dark Doctor are actually referring to him rather than the Doctor we know. When River Song warns him at hte end of AGMGtW that people have come to fear him it is maybe the actions of the Hurt Doctor, that incarnation that he rejects/denies that she is referring to. IT was perhaps the Hurt incarnation that visited the Gamma Forests and it perhaps the “long and bitter war” that Madam Kovarian refers to that he fought rather than the Time war which as has been pointed out, the Doctor freely admits to.
I am not sure where this puts the Hurt incarnation, either and alternate eleven or from the future. When I first suggested alternate eleven it was just an idea and one I thought overly credible but it is growing on me. We do not know what the Doctor does in the times between his earth visits. He spends a lot of time knocking about in that Tardis without companions or T.V cameras. Perhaps there is something happening in those gaps, or perhaps Hurt Doctor has been delegated to a seperate reality, where he remains, unregenerated. The Doctor has split maybe by the fracturing Tardis. Which ties back to Matt’s remark about paintings. Perhaps the alternate Doctor came into existance before Amy rebooted the universe which makes Matt both Doctor eleven and Doctor 13. NOw my head hurts.
Just a note on the comment made earlier and I apologise but despite my best efforts I have forgotten whom by, having read so many posts since, on the likelihood of MOffat reading through our bonkers theorising and putting teases into the script. I suspected that Clara’s story about creating the fish to keep her company was a reference to our very own fish.
Cheers
Janette
23 May 2013 at 07:35 #10471Re: the Silents prophecy and Madame Kovarian, et al. One of our bonkers theories™ of old was that the Silents were not actually malign but instead had a more noble reason for all that flipper action.
This also brings back the storyline of the Pandorica Opens (which I was watching the other day on the hunt for clues), where the Cybermen, Daleks, Sontarans, etc gang up together to save the universe from the Doctor.
Could it be that the ‘Doctor’ they want to save the universe from isn’t Eleven but Hurt Doctor? The one who is to come?
23 May 2013 at 08:12 #10474Exactly my thinking @chickenelly though I do think that the Silence were bad uns and I don’t think that Hurt Doctor is necessarily evil just did what had to be done for peace in the universe but it the act of a war leader not the Doctor. In a way it is the Doctor splitting his personality to avoid responsibility for his own actions. What Hurt did may have been necessary just not pleasant or of dubious ethics. If an unethical act is required to save all life does that make it ethical? I think this questions lies at the very heart of all Who and the Doctor has always managed to dodge that bullet, but perhaps not always after all.
Makes a change being able to respond. Mostly I am so far behind with posts that I don’t even get past reading through them to be able to post and by the time i have I have completely forgotten everything I was going to say. So many wonderful posts and bonkers theories in the past few days. Brilliant.. 🙂
Cheers
Janette.
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