S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@chickenelly @janetteb

Pandorica – I queried upstream (somewhere!) whether the whole Pandorica scenario actually panned out as we saw it since the rumours and stories that were circulating then were very similar to the words the GI used to describe the Dr in NotD… it looks like it’s been affected by the GI, but not yet by Clara. Or maybe the GI is also just listening to rumours, fuelled by his own personal frustration that the Dr defeated him several times.

But I like that HurtDr could be the source of the rumours. And Eleven is the victim of mistaken identity.

JanetteB said: ” If an unethical act is required to save all life does that make it ethical?”  Especially when there isn’t a viable alternative choice.  I think you’re right, that question will be at the heart of it. How did the GI know about Solomon btw, who gets a specific mention. And was the centre of that very debate when we were discussing Dinosaurs.

LOL @whohar – “mad as a whirlpool bath of fishes” Love it 🙂

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb, @chickenelly, @janetteb – Remember that poor woman who got zapped by the Silence in the bathroom at the White House though?  That was just gratuitous, not least because she was going to forget seeing them anyway.  Not sure how that helped a ‘noble cause’ although it could have been in the episode just to make the Silence more scary.  But why do that if the long arc was that the Silence were basically a force for good (i.e., not allowing the unleashing of the Hurt Doctor)?

@jarschqua – I hadn’t heard anything about Shalka or REG doctor before your very interesting post (no. 10459).  Off to research more, thanks for the tip! As you say, there are some juicy symmetries between then and now, even if only with the actors/voices.  And many on this site have pined for the return of the Master; your theory brings that possibility alive for the 50th (or beyond).

@whohar – ‘whirlpool bath of fishes’?  I see your term, and raise it to ‘jacuzzi bath of fishes’ because it’s really more like a jacuzzi with dozens of different jets (theories) all pummelling our brains.  🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot

You misrepresent me 😉 I’m in the Silence are NOT good guys camp. Or I would be if I could remember – who were they again?!

LOL @jacuzzi of fishes (out of the jacuzzi and into the whirlpool)

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – I’m sorry, who are you talking about?  😀

Yeah, I think what I’m saying is, the Silence cannot be ‘doing the wrong things for the right reasons’ – i.e., a mirror to the Hurt Doctor – so I’m in agreement with everyone on that point.

Tesselector Amy said the Silence were a religious order, which brings us back to the Doctor being revered as a God (Pompeii, mirror-Grandfather in RoA, etc) or thinking he’s a God (Mars).  I believe Steven Moffat has defined himself as an atheist (??) and certainly RTD is; and if so, it’s interesting that they’re weaving so much religious iconography into the Doctor’s story.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

 I suspected that Clara’s story about creating the fish to keep her company was a reference to our very own fish.

Well, if in S8 someone is referred to as ‘bonkers as a bathful of fish, we’ll know’ 🙂

Not sure I’ve mentioned this on here – it may have been T’Other Place – but John Hurt is the thirteenth actor to be officially credited as ‘The Doctor’ in the television continuity. Because the First was played by both William Hartnell and Richard Hurndall. Whatever his actual ordering in the continuity, he’s got to be the Dark Doctor.

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@chickenelly @janetteb @scaryb –

I did wonder if we’ve been given a bit of a misdirect in terms of why the Silence wanted to kill the Doctor, and who Madam Kovarian’s ‘endless bitter war’ was actually between.  The GI (and his whispermen) manipulating people to his own ends isn’t far from the Silence’s own MO, so perhaps the endless bitter war was actually a turf war between the Silence and the GI.

What would be the easiest way to end this war (in the Silence’s favour)? – Stop the GI being scattered through time and space.  How do you stop this happening?  Prevent access to the Doctor’s tomb by taking out the only person known to have the password.  Essentially the Doctor is just collateral damage in their long game.

I think the HurtDoctor is the Doctor’s own problem.  His enemies aren’t keen on him in any incarnation (when they can remember who he is), so I don’t think their plans – or the Pandorica plan – would have been focused on preventing the HurtDoctor any more than any other version (and it was effectively Eleven who ordered the genocide of all the Silence – so what would the HurtDoctor have had to do to annoy them more than that?)

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@osakahatter

so what would the HurtDoctor have had to do to annoy them more than that?

Capture one and have Edvard Munch use them for a painting. The Stetson/fez etc wasn’t really necessary.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

If an unethical act is required to save all life does that make it ethical?

@janetteb and @scaryb – ooh, entire books have been written about that one. Generally, no. See, that was easy. 🙂

The phrase ‘the lesser of two evils’ sums up most of the books. An unethical act required to, say, save the universe is still unethical, but in an imperfect world it’s recognised that sometimes the choice is between ‘bad’ and ‘worse’. And you have to distinguish between ‘the poor bloke who had to press the button’ and the people who really made the original unethical choice (i.e. the Cybermen, by deciding to cyberise people – without giving them a choice about it).

So I think that if Moffat is going to discuss ‘the poor bloke who had to press the button’, we’re going to find out that – somehow – he either didn’t need to press it (the Doctor’s lying to himself when he says ‘I had no choice’) or that he did – but there was something else he could have done as well.

The man who lies will lie no more

When this man lies at Trenzalore.

If that’s another prophecy, are we talking about the Doctor’s death? Or we talking about a situation where – once the Doctor tells a lie at Trenzalore – it’s his final lie. He’s run out of lies; only the truth is left to him.

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@bluesqueakpip –

Not sure I’ve mentioned this on here – it may have been T’Other Place – but John Hurt is the thirteenth actor to be officially credited as ‘The Doctor’ in the television continuity. Because the First was played by both William Hartnell and Richard Hurndall. Whatever his actual ordering in the continuity, he’s got to be the Dark Doctor.

I right in thinking that Eccleston was credited as ‘Doctor Who’ rather than The Doctor in the end credits?  I seem to remember some controversy at the time and Tennant insisting on being the Doctor, but as I was out of the country, it’s the one series since the return that I’ve not seen fully/carefully.

Also about the Eleventh Hour clock symbolism – what if the Eleven was referring to the number of regeneration events, rather than the incarnation number (because, as the moment, Tennant – Smith was regeneration 10). Canon suggests 12 regenerations, 13 incarnations, which would tie with your suggestion that this references everything ending at 12.  Could also be a get out for any dialogue referring to Smith as the Eleventh if the HurtDoc does turn out to be an earlier incarnation because this would make him the result of his Eleventh regeneration?

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@satsumajoe –

Capture one and have Edvard Munch use them for a painting. The Stetson/fez etc wasn’t really necessary.

🙂 Heehee.  Love the thought of the Doctor trying to persuade Munch the picture would look much better if only he’d incorporate a hat.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

I right in thinking that Eccleston was credited as ‘Doctor Who’ rather than The Doctor in the end credits?

@osakahatter – several of the actors have been credited as ‘Doctor Who’. William Hartnell was credited as Doctor Who. David Tennant got sniffy because, as he correctly pointed out, the character’s on-screen name is ‘The Doctor’. To rephrase, Hurt is the thirteenth actor to have officially played the character of ‘The Doctor’ in the television continuity.

I think the symbolism of Matt Smith’s Doctor continually making self-referential jokes about ‘Eleven’ is that he’s wiped the Hurt Doctor out of the continuity. The Hurt Doctor doesn’t count as ‘The Doctor’. He’s not worthy of the name. I am the Eleventh incarnation to live up to that name. I am the Eleventh Doctor.

He’s lying to himself. On screen, and in plain sight. All the time.

[budinacup @budinacup]

@Shazzbot with reference your god comparisons…..( i think i may have been the first on her to draw the comparison) lets not leave out he and Donna being imortalised as gods, a whole episode “The God Complex” or better yet the Face of Boe’s legend. That he will impart his last secret to……”…The lonely God…..”

i think there is far to many references to The Doctor being a god or being made into a god or perceived as a god for there not to be some pay off eventually with these links.

I think that is what we will learn when we find out his true name.

It will bring about war because it will prove the existence of a new belief in gods and there origins…. Hence why the Silence (a religious order) want to keep it from being spoken.

 

discuss 🙂

[budinacup @budinacup]

@bluesqueakpip
I think the symbolism of Matt Smith’s Doctor continually making self-referential jokes about ‘Eleven’ is that he’s wiped the Hurt Doctor out of the continuity. The Hurt Doctor doesn’t count as ‘The Doctor’. He’s not worthy of the name. I am the Eleventh incarnation to live up to that name. I am the Eleventh Doctor.
He’s lying to himself. On screen, and in plain sight. All the time.

I LIKE THAT IDEA!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@budinacup

with reference your god comparisons…..( i think i may have been the first on her to draw the comparison)

Haha, I think you need to go and read all the previous threads before you come up with rash statements like that!!

But some good thinking, although I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that there are 2 things that definitely won’t be revealed while Moffat is in charge

1 the Doctor’s name as anything other than “the Doctor”

2 the Doctor as actually being a god (despite all the foreshadowing, hints etc). God-like abilities perhaps, or so it seems to us ordinary mortals. But it seems to me that Moffat’s 3 series arc ( 🙂 ) has been about debunking that concept

@bluesqueakpip Secrets and Lies…

Dr: “Secrets keep us safe”

Clara: “We’re NOT SAFE!”

And Eleven not Eleven – lying in plain sight, I like (My head imploded at all the possible permutations of the “lies” rhyme, LOL)

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

That suggests his secret (the other?) is indeed dangerous. What could be worse than ending the Time War?

[Jose @jose]

Hi everyone. I have a crazy one. If everything inside the Doctor’s time stream is actually THE Doctor, how do you explain Clara’s leaf  flying around?

a)   Too many joints smoked during the scriptwriting.

b)  Clara is actually a future regeneration of the Doctor disguised as a human.

c) Timey wimey!

[budinacup @budinacup]

@scaryb When i bought forward the idea of doctor telling Clara that he had been to the RoA before with his granddaughter, and mentioned that they called there god “Grandfather” it was pointed out by several others that i was the first to point that out.

ah well, its not about the source, its about the theories that it spawns.

I’m sure that we will Find out the Doctors real name under SM.  I don’t think it works when ideas are dragged out unnecessarily, and im sure SM has his conclusion ready.

Time will tell!

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@budinacup See Rings of Akhaten thread, page 1 (post #4297, 6 Apr, @jimthefish )

But you’re right, it’s a hive mind in here, and all the better for it.

Re ideas being dragged out – the Dr’s identity has been a secret for 50 years! (or over 1000 (Gallifreyan) years, depending how you look at it). They can manage a few more 🙂

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@satsumajoe

What could be worse than ending the Time War?

Starting it…?

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@bluesqueakpip –

I think the symbolism of Matt Smith’s Doctor continually making self-referential jokes about ‘Eleven’ is that he’s wiped the Hurt Doctor out of the continuity. The Hurt Doctor doesn’t count as ‘The Doctor’. He’s not worthy of the name. I am the Eleventh incarnation to live up to that name. I am the Eleventh Doctor.

I like that, repeating the lie until he convinces himself.  Or trying to remind himself of who he is because he’s afraid he’s not living up to the name of The Doctor?

[SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe]

@scaryb Ah. Yes. Right. I’d go sit in a corner but in the name of peace and sanity?

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

OK, too many re-viewings of the last episode and too much wine has led to the following:

Who is Clarence DeMarco? Why does he know so much about the Doctor? about Trenzalore? about the whisper men?

And let’s not forget that Madame Vastra keeps him alive. so there could be a return appearance.

That’s it. Time for bed.

[Anonymous @]

@osakahatter – Yes, I too loved @bluesqueakpip‘s ‘in plain sight’ theory about the Doctor being ’11’.  And your follow-up is great too:  “I like that, repeating the lie until he convinces himself.  Or trying to remind himself of who he is because he’s afraid he’s not living up to the name of The Doctor?”

11 knows what he did as 10, cf. The Waters of Mars, and that could definitely lead him as 11 to be afraid of not living up to the name – i.e., himself as 11 becoming written out of The Doctor’s numbering system.

[Apropos of nothing, I should be out doing errands but it’s alternately raining like leopards and wolves (much worse than cats and dogs), and bucketing down massive hailstones.  Is this really the end of May?  🙁 ]

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Oh, and apologies if this has been dealt with by others.

[Anonymous @]

@scaryb – The Doctor (or, erm, ‘not the Doctor’) starting the time war?!  Now that would be a cracking story for the 50th.

@blenkinsopthebrave – if you’re in bed, then you’ll read this when you awake refreshed … 🙂 … I thought the murderer heard whispers, i.e., the GI (in the guise of his henchmen).  Perhaps the Whispermen picked him to listen, because of his connection to Vastra; for example, maybe she was the detective who caught him?

[budinacup @budinacup]

@scaryb

Re ideas being dragged out – the Dr’s identity has been a secret for 50 years! (or over 1000 (Gallifreyan) years, depending how you look at it). They can manage a few more 

Haha. However, when you introduce an idea as an actual story arc it becomes tiresome when it is dragged out.

As such, my initial reaction the the end of the current series was not a good one!  but after sitting down, and calming down, and taking back all the thoughts and misgivings i was having about SM i liked the Hurt Doctor reveal.

But back to arcs. The River Song arc took a little to long for my liking if i’m honest. So i would hate the whole Doctor Who? arc to become lost in its own wibbly wobbly timey wimey convoluted arc! It would be a real shame if it just became a story that was dragged on for the sake of teasing viewers. Is it not better to tease the viewer a little, maybe a series and a bit then resolve the arc and take the show in a new direction with newly discovered information about the universe? keeping it fresh and keeping the ideas coming.

Is that not more fun? That way we are continually growing with the doctor, discovering things together, and looking forward to the next mystery to come our way.

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@budinacup – we won’t hear the name. We got told in this episode, his name in itself isn’t important. I’ve always thought that the reason he uses ‘John Smith’ as a human name is because his birth name is the Gallifreyan equivalent.

He was born John Smith from Gallifrey. He chose to become ‘The Doctor’.

The arc isn’t, and never has been about his birth name – it’s about the name of ‘The Doctor’. Doctor Who? Is ‘The Doctor’ a soldier? A mighty warrior? A mass murderer with ethics?

Or ‘the man who makes things better’?

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip – “The arc isn’t, and never has been about his birth name – it’s about the name of ‘The Doctor’.”

@budinacup – I thought it was neatly wrapped up with the last line of this episode.  Just as we learn in TNotD that Clara’s full phrase was always ‘Run, you clever boy, and remember me‘ , I thought the point was that the real phrase always has been ‘[what was or wasn’t] done in the name of the Doctor.’

[budinacup @budinacup]

@bluesqueakpip -If that’s the case then it is a disappointing end. We already learned in A good man goes to war that his name means Mighty Warrior to the people of the Gamma Forests  and Wise man and Healer to us. So why create a story arc that has already been explained in one speech in a previous series?

The doctor lies…………………………His name IS important and yet to be heard.

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@budinacup – well, personally, I don’t want to know The Doctor’s name! 😀

[Anonymous @]

@budinacup – My interpretation is that we learnt in AGMGtW that the word ‘Doctor’ means warrior in the Gamma Forests.  Yes, they say that they learnt this from him, from his title.

But … did the Gamma Forest residents create a word for warrior based on the title of our Doctor?  Or from Hurt Doctor? 🙂

To me, it was never about his birth name, other than opening the door to his tomb.  It’s always been about the title ‘Doctor’, and what that title means based on the actions of whoever is currently carrying that title.  I think that’s what @bluesqueakpip was saying.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

If everything inside the Doctor’s time stream is actually THE Doctor, how do you explain Clara’s leaf  flying around?

@jose – the leaf itself is reasonably easy – THE Doctor brought his memories of Clara’s life with him. Remember, he watched her grow up.

The better quote is:

There’s only me here, that’s the point.

Which sounds rather like one of Steven Moffat’s extremely precise lines.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@bluesqueakpip

But, but, but, Bluntwin Hootwhistle, you said.

[budinacup @budinacup]

@Shazzbot @Bluesqueakpip-If the Doctors name isn’t the point then why do the silence not want the question to be answered?

What terrible thing has been unleashed upon the universe by opening his tomb?

answer………………………..Nothing. Yes we have seen Hurt Doctor, but that is in his time line.

I genuinely feel that the “Question” hasn’t been asked yet. I also think we are yet to see the fall of the 11th.

I am confident that the 50th will be set at Tensalor. It will be here that the question will be asked when no living thing can fail to answer and his true name will unveil some dark secret….. Darker than Hurt Doctor, this will be the fall of the 11th. I see it more as a “Fall from grace” rather than a death. It is only when his name is spoken and The Doctor confronts who he is and what he has done will the arc be complete.

[budinacup @budinacup]

@bluesqueakpip

If everything inside the Doctor’s time stream is actually THE Doctor, how do you explain Clara’s leaf  flying around?

Or if everything is the Doctor, how do you explain CLARA? or have i missed a bonkers theory that Clara is the Doctor too?

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@budinacup – yes, you’ve missed the ‘Clara is the Doctor’ theory. I mustn’t have gone on about it recently. 🙂

[budinacup @budinacup]

@bluesqueakpip not so sure about that one. Only because every Clara we have seen has been played by Jenna louise Coleman and never anybody else. Iv also heard that she may be River Song and even CAL…………. Again different actress’ and different names. Clara has always been Clara.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@Shazzbot I agree.

The arc (3 seasons worth!) is about the name as in the reputation of the Doctor.  In AGMGTW he is indeed called Mighty Warrior, the Oncoming Storm, the beast soaked in the blood of whatever… but the point is that he (and we in the audience) is surprised/shocked by this. At the time there was much debate about whether Moffat was dealing with the consequences of RTD period “bigging him up” (the god like status thing). A theory further fuelled when much deleting of databases started going on.

After tNotD episode there are now 2 possibilities (and probably more I’ve missed!) about how this reputation came about (apart from misperception by the other side (one man’s freedom fighter etc)) –

1 It’s been established by HDr by things he actually did/will do

2 It’s a misrepresentation, rumours driven by the GI and planted falsely. Clara maybe wasn’t able to put the fix in to stop the rumours, though maybe she helped further on by helping Amy with her dreams or keeping any eye on plastic Rory. But maybe those rumours remain, as echoes

But agree @bluesqueakpip – we’ve been told very clearly what the significance of the name of the Doctor is, it’s about how people really know you, by your deeds and reputation. It’s about the challenge of living up to that name/title – the promise he says he made (as in @phaseshift‘s hippocratic oath parallel).  The next stage is finding out what the name of the Dr isn’t – ie Hurt’s Dr’s arc.

We might find out why he chose to be The Doctor (as opposed to the Lawyer, the Good Samaritan, The Scarecrow… whatever)

[Anonymous @]

@budinacup – “What terrible thing has been unleashed upon the universe by opening his tomb?  answer………………………..Nothing.”

Wellll … other than the GI jumping into the Doctor’s timestream, to un-do some of his good deeds, causing worlds to die / stars to collapse / people to wink out of existence?

“why do the silence not want the question to be answered?”

There are a lot of theories about a possible connection between the Silence – who clearly revolved around making sure the Doctor’s future tomb stays locked up tight – and the GI, who desperately wanted to get in there.

“His name IS important and yet to be heard.”

Well, that is one theory I’m pretty sure you’re the only one to posit; so if you are right, you are welcome to dance around the room saying ‘I knew it!  I knew it!’  😉

Of course, if that’s true AND his name is Bluntwin Hootwhistle, then @bluesqueakpip gets to be Queen of 1000 Galaxies.   😀

 

[Whisht @whisht]

@scaryb and @budinacup

but we know the name of The Doctor – River says it!

“Opensesame”.

coat? oh……

[budinacup @budinacup]

I will hold on to my Theory that Hurt Doctor is in fact the Original Time Lord to take on the title of “The Doctor” and whatever he did, all be it in the name of peace and sanity wasn’t befitting of the title. As a result Hartnell Doctor stole his identity. This is the secret that will be unveiled when his name is heard. Because it is this that will threaten to undo all our Doctor has done and the Hurt Doctor will then be reveiled as The true Doctor. Our Docotr needs to now erase Hurt Doctor from the timeline. This is the a game changer such as the one er were promised.

Hurt Doctor does nothing to change the game other than loose 1 regeneration (shortening the life of the show) or if he is the next Doctor, introduce him. Neither of which “Changes everything” as SM has promised.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip

There’s only me here, that’s the point.

Which sounds rather like one of Steven Moffat’s extremely precise lines.

And it still has a fair degree of ambiguity, LOL.

Both he (as Eleven) and Clara are “aliens” in the timestream. Neither of them should be there. There will be echoes of 11 (and presumably 1-10 also) running about all over the place in there*, somewhere in its presumably very big space. So is he including Clara in “only me here” or is it like he’s waving a hand around, gesturing, with “except for you of course” understood?

*presumably also 1m copies of Clara and the GI – or will, these being copies or echoes, be used once then fade?

[Anonymous @]

@budinacup – so, your bonkers theorising is done?  🙂  We have 6 more months to chew over this – I don’t think anyone else here is convinced yet of anything, because there are so many angles (so far!) to consider, and so many more theories to create and discuss.

However, there does seem to be consensus that the game-changer that Steven Moffat promised us relates to the GI influencing things for the worst – which we saw in disappearing Pat Gang members, stars going out, etc. – and Clara influencing them for the better – which we saw in re-appearing stars, return of Strax / Jenny, etc.  — AND what those double changes (multiplied by a millions GIs and a million Claras over the entire universe from start to finish) mean to the history of the Doctor Who programmes from the very beginning.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@budinacup – the bonkers theory is that Clara is the Doctor’s future. Therefore she will only be played by Jenna Louise Coleman, just as the current Doctor is only played by Matt Smith.

If you want to go on a bit more: we’re told very specifically that the time-line contains the Doctor’s past, present and future. Which is presumably why ‘Trenza-lore’, a trenza is a braid, three pieces twisted together. Trenzalore is where the story of the Doctor’s past, present and future gets twisted.

Anyway, while in the time-line Clara says very firmly – I saw all eleven of you. And then we see Hurt Doctor. The implication is pretty clear; the Doctor’s future is running out. There are only twelve incarnations. We see only twelve incarnations. If the Hurt Doctor is his future, he doesn’t get past Hurt. If the Hurt Doctor was the Time War Doctor (implied by the Doctor’s referring to him in the past tense), the Doctor never gets past the Smith Doctor.

But, there’s also Clara.  Clara, who was born ‘to save The Doctor’. And who can somehow survive the Doctor’s time stream; even if she ends up not knowing where she is or who she is.

So: the bonkers theory. Clara is a future incarnation of the Doctor. And right now she only exists as an infinite number of copies – because if she doesn’t save ‘The Doctor’, she will never be born at all. Like Pinocchio, she has yet to become ‘a real girl’.

🙂

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@budinacup – We’ve already had 1 gamechanger – the reset of the timeline by the GI, then Clara. But I think you are right that we are only halfway through this story and another one is likely, to reinforce how much change this reset can do.

PreHartnell is certainly a strong contender, but so is between 8 and 9 (which has the advantage of being within the new series (almost)) with the Valeyard not to be discoounted. Strong outsiders are a future Dr and between Troughton and Pertwee.

@craig – we need a poll app 😉 (Pleeeeeease!)

[Anonymous @]

@whohar and @bluesqueakpip — if Bluntwin Hootwhistle doesn’t end up being the Doctor’s original name, I shall be sorely disappointed.

At the very least, I think there should be a minor character in season eight with that name, if only because it’s too good to waste…

[budinacup @budinacup]

@Shazzbot –

Well, that is one theory I’m pretty sure you’re the only one to posit; so if you are right, you are welcome to dance around the room saying ‘I knew it!  I knew it!’  

i have cut and pasted that in readiness! 🙂

In the original series The Masters name is mentioned in The five Doctors. We have also more recently seen Rassilon. So i’m sure as eggs is eggs That the Doctors Name will be revealed.

I am practicing my Victory dance as i type! 😉

[budinacup @budinacup]

@bluesqueakpip

 There are only twelve incarnations. We see only twelve incarnations. If the Hurt Doctor is his future, he doesn’t get past Hurt. If the Hurt Doctor was the Time War Doctor (implied by the Doctor’s referring to him in the past tense), the Doctor never gets past the Smith Doctor.

12 regeneration’s … That’s 13 incarnations of The Doctor. so there are 2 more actors. either Hurt plus 1. or two more post Smith if Hurt is erased or not the Doctor or whatever.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@bluesqueakpip Thanks for picking up Clara’s line “I saw all eleven of you” (paraphrased) again – that’s a potentially very explosive line when they’re in a place which is supposed to contain all of the Drs up till his death.

(And nice call on Trenza (3 stranded braid) -lore )

Clara surviving in the Dr’s timestream (and she’s not out yet (he’s carrying her out at the end, mirroring carrying Amy in AotD)) – can be explained by the Dr’s own explanation that she has him as her advantage – the difference between her and the GI. That’s why he has to go in to find her as presumably the original gets “lost” completely or fractures or fades if left in there too long.

(I have Clara as future Dr as my favourite wishlist theory, next to Blutin Hootwhistle 🙂  )

@budinacup – one of the reasons for the debate is that it’s not about “The Dr’s name” it’s “The Name of the Dr” <hmm, impressive moves 🙂 >

 

 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

12 regeneration’s … That’s 13 incarnations of The Doctor. so there are 2 more actors. either Hurt plus 1. or two more post Smith if Hurt is erased or not the Doctor or whatever.

Exactly. And we know what happens for the 13th incarnation. Somewhere between the twelfth and thirteenth regeneration he becomes the (KnackersYard, Junkyard, nope, sorry) Valeyard.

All these dark hints about the Doctor’s future – and we’ve just discovered that in all probability, that future is his next incarnation. Twelve is fine; Thirteen is Really Dark Doctor. The Beast, the Storm, the Valeyard. And even if that incarnation sees himself as fighting in a good cause, he’s so damn terrifying that half the universe is willing to fight a holy war to make sure the Doctor never reaches that incarnation.

So damn terrifying that Eleven might be willing to fall in a ‘minor skirmish’ rather than become that Doctor.

Moffat’s getting rid of the past continuity as a drag on the creativity of future producers; if he’s going to do that, he has to get rid of those prophecies of a ‘dark doctor’, a ‘Valeyard’, that they landed the show with back in the days when they thought they’d never, ever reach ‘The Thirteenth Doctor’.

So I think he’s making ‘The Thirteenth’ the future that has to be averted.

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