The Day of The Doctor – The 50th Anniversary Special

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@tennantmarsters2013

Jack became the Face of Boe simply by the passage of time. He was unable to die, so lived for centuries – and the ravages of time affected his appearance and physical form. He became the Face of Boe as part of that process and finally gave up life as we saw in Gridlock. Well, that is the conjecture anyway – nothing is stated explicitly in the series.

I think it more likely than not that Tennant will be playing his Doctor and that Clara and Eleven will encounter he and Rose at a point earlier in the Tenth’s timeline than Doomsday. But – who knows?

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@chickenelly I knew he became immortal because of what happened end series one (AG) and that we found out he was face of boe but I meant the actual him turning into the big giant head in the jar like @htpbdet explained.

Jack was such an important character I think they should do a little part about him.

I’m hoping so. Human doctor is too normal for me.

The big bad in the 50th will probably be….all of the doctor who baddies that we’re involved in time war or John hurt

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet—

I think it’s possible that Hurt is an excised Doctor and that Eleven merely calls himself that — but is in fact Twelve (with Eccleston and Tennant also having to shift up a number.) That Hurt’s Doctor is somehow in some personal ‘time lock’ could explain Clara’s lack of knowledge. He’s a suppressed memory, if you like and Clara only has access to the conscious parts of the Doctor. Hurt’s Doc is the Doctor’s id in Freudian terms?

Of course, Hurt could just be an aged and war-torn version of McGann’s Doc.

See Spoilers section for a continuation of this….

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@jimthefish

Not joining in the spoiler section, but I agree with Doctor Hurt being between 8 and 9. My reasoning is:

• The Book of the Time War presents the Doctors name. Maybe the reason it does that is to separate the identity of the incarnation who didn’t do things “in the name of the Doctor”.

• Clara thinks she’s seen eleven incarnations in his Time Line, but not this one. But from references in Stolen Earth/Journey’s End when they discuss the Time War, everything about the Time War was “Time Locked”. Surely that means the whole run, hence how Caan was able to rescue Davros and his ship from its fate. Therefore whatever aspects of the Doctors Timeline that fought in the war are still there.

So perhaps this intervention and counter-intervention by the GI and Clara somehow altered events to allow some seepage of this personality (maybe by subtlety altering the Time Lock?

The Zygons I think are pure distraction, like publicity shots of the Cybermen in “A good man…” Tennant really likes them and I can imagine a dangling carrot of “we’ll throw in a Zygon scene” could make all the difference. 🙂

I’d like to think the 50th is more likely to be an expansion of “what it is to be the Doctor”. With the announcement for Matt’s end in the Christmas Special, we joked about “Twelfth Night” as a potential title, but that would work if there is some sort of reconciliation for a missing Doctor. Eleven becomes Twelve, and Twelfth Night sees the close of his run.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@tennantmarsters2013

How did Jack turn into The Face of Boe?

That is almost up there with “What happened to Geoff?” I’m glad @chickenelly told you to go look it up.

You were kinda almost out of the woods until I got in tonight and saw that. Really, must you try my patience and my (almost regained) faith in you?

You’re back on my naughty step. Sorry.

EDIT. I’m quite tried of you and others posting vacuous questions. One more vacuous question from you and I will delete you. May sound harsh to you, but I don’t want you wasting the time of valuable contributors such as @chickenelly and @htpbdet

So comment as much as you want, but no more questions without any substance.

[doctorwilko @doctorwilko]

personally i reckon the hurt dr is just an combination of all the drs bad choices, or the valeyard, but it being dr who thats way too simple

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@jimthefish

I think it’s possible that Hurt is an excised Doctor and that Eleven merely calls himself that — but is in fact Twelve (with Eccleston and Tennant also having to shift up a number.)..Of course, Hurt could just be an aged and war-torn version of McGann’s Doc..

Just asking – has Smith actually ever referred to himself as the Eleventh? I am probably wrong, but I did think that it was only others who did that?

But agree that Hurt could be an aged 8th or the real 9th – I just wonder if that is in the “too obvious” category for Moffat?

That Hurt’s Doctor is somehow in some personal ‘time lock’ could explain Clara’s lack of knowledge. He’s a suppressed memory, if you like and Clara only has access to the conscious parts of the Doctor. Hurt’s Doc is the Doctor’s id in Freudian terms?

I guess the reason I try to suppress the Id idea is that (a) we have sort of been there, done that with the Valeyard and (b) it makes me think of that episode of Lost in Space where Will’s “Id” possessed Doctor Smith (Series 3 – The Space Creature (I think))

But, yes, clearly it is possible that Hurt is the Doctor’s Id (and I guess that brings the list of possible Hurt options to 6?).

But even a suppressed memory would surely be in the deceased Doctor’s track of tears? Once he is dead, what suppresses the memory? Clara has not walked into Smith’s memory, she has walked into the memories of the last incarnation in this timeline. Hence the remark about lives not yet lived. No?

@phaseshift

I agree with Doctor Hurt being between 8 and 9. My reasoning is:

The Book of the Time War presents the Doctors name. Maybe the reason it does that is to separate the identity of the incarnation who didn’t do things “in the name of the Doctor”. Clara thinks she’s seen eleven incarnations in his Time Line, but not this one. But from references in Stolen Earth/Journey’s End when they discuss the Time War, everything about the Time War was “Time Locked”. Surely that means the whole run, hence how Caan was able to rescue Davros and his ship from its fate. Therefore whatever aspects of the Doctors Timeline that fought in the war are still there.

I guess the thing about the sealing of the Time War is that anything goes – the device can be utilised to suit whatever narrative need arises. Yes, some of the Doctor’s history/actions must be trapped there – but not the memories. Lots of people remember the Time War even though its sealed.

Does the History of the Time War identify the Doctor’s name? Are we sure about that? Clara said he was mentioned in it but not that he wrote it or that his real name was mentioned in it. She could have learnt the Doctor’s real name from something else – something tiny is the only real clue- the crib, anything really. It is not stated she read it in the book is it? I got the impression that we were to believe River wrote the History – Clara’s statement she always thought Professor Song was a man?

So perhaps this intervention and counter-intervention by the GI and Clara somehow altered events to allow some seepage of this personality (maybe by subtlety altering the Time Lock?

Yes, perhaps that is right. Anything is possible with respect to the Time Lock.

I’d like to think the 50th is more likely to be an expansion of “what it is to be the Doctor”. With the announcement for Matt’s end in the Christmas Special, we joked about “Twelfth Night” as a potential title, but that would work if there is some sort of reconciliation for a missing Doctor. Eleven becomes Twelve, and Twelfth Night sees the close of his run.

I have no faith in “announcements”. Moffat may have had his plan for a shock regeneration thwarted by some loose lips at the BBC, but that does not mean that he cannot still have one. He could do something tricksy at the end of the 50th that showed the future…the regeneration…and then in the Christmas Special show how Smith got to that point. Have his cake and eat it too. Or Smith could actually leave in the 50th.

I like the idea of Smith’s time starting with Eleventh Hour and finishing with Twelfth Night – there is a poetry to that in story-telling terms which is very attractive.

Equally, of course, for those who are wanting a female Doctor, Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night is about falling in love with someone whose gender is not what you think it is…

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – “Moffat may have had his plan for a shock regeneration thwarted by some loose lips at the BBC”

I dunno, I think all that coyness over whether Matt was signed for the next series was a bit of a give-away, not least because it was out and open that Jenna was signed.

Has the 50th finished filming already?  I think I read in a Jenna interview that they’re filming the Chrimbo special in September.  Apparently Matt’s going to need a wig if he’s in that, not sure his hair can grow back that fast.

I’m getting more than a little frustrated over the lack of anything Who-related so far this year.  And learning that the next series won’t air until August 2014 doesn’t improve my mood.  :angry:

[Anonymous @]

@craig – I don’t think asking how Cap’n Jack became a huge disembodied head-in-a-jar is such a daft question.  I mean really, where did his body go?

I remember talking with friends at the time those Martha episodes aired, at how utterly awful it would have been to be Jack, unable to die, living so long his body atrophied and he had millions of years of memories stuck in his head; condemned to sit and watch the world, unable to participate.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@htpbdet

but not the memories. Lots of people remember the Time War even though its sealed.

I’m not sure what memories have to do with this really, unless you spotted some reference to it in “Name of the Doctor”.

Sure, the Doctor will remember everything about it, but Clara jumps into his personal twisty “time tunnel” From Gallifrey to Trenzalore. She’d have access to most, but the parts of his life that exist in the Time War? I think his existence and actions in it would be subject to the Time Lock. I don’t think there is any reference to her having his memories.

Does the History of the Time War identify the Doctor’s name?

Clara: “I don’t want to forget. Not all of it. The library. I saw it. You were mentioned in a book.”
The Doctor: “I’m mentioned in a lot of books.”
Clara: “You call yourself Doctor. Why do you do that? You have a name, I’ve seen it. In one corner of that tiny–“
The Doctor: “If I rewrite today you won’t remember. You won’t go looking for my name.”

I think if anyone wants to look for holes, you can argue that this is left ambiguous, but in conjunction with Clara’s “So that’s who” as she reads the Time War book, she learns the name from the book. The Doctor warns her not to go looking for his name. I think NotD gives us the reason for this. The person who wears this name isn’t “The Doctor” to his mind.

[Anonymous @]

@phaseshift – for all the reasons you specify, it’s surely left for us to complete the ‘So that’s who …’ sentence with ‘… he is’.

But I’m still hoping for something not so obvious.  Like, for example, ‘So that’s who … I am’.

I do agree though, that with what we know so far, the Doctor’s real name is now associated only with the Hurt Doctor.  Our Doctor is, well, ‘the Doctor’; he has no need of his real name anymore.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Apparently Matt’s going to need a wig if he’s in that, not sure his hair can grow back that fast.

@Shazzbot – yeah, interesting that they let him cut his hair. Though maybe he’s playing Anthony Brian Williams (the baby boy adopted by Amy and Rory) and there was another reason they didn’t film that coda to Angels in Manhattan.

Because the boy the Ponds brought up and legally adopted as their son was really their grandson.

🙂

[Anonymous @]

@bluesqueakpip – “Because the boy the Ponds brought up and legally adopted as their son was really their grandson.”

Gawww, I’m going to have to start drinking in the afternoon if I want to understand these bonkers theories!  😉

[OsakaHatter @osakahatter]

@htpbdet –

The thing is, though, that the Eleventh did fall at Trenzalore. He was dying and then Clara intervened. Silence commenced falling – but Clara stopped it. The Eleventh stepped into his own time tunnel and has yet to emerge – so, for all relevant purposes, the Eleventh has fallen and we have not seem him rise. Yet.

 

I’m sure you’re right and the fall into the timeline was my initial reading of ‘The fall of the Eleventh’.  He may not even exit the timestream back at Trenzalore, so to an observer there, he would appear to have fallen and never risen.  I’m veering into over complicating in my quest for a universal theory of everything.

You might be right about the TARDIS. Nothing magical about my thought. I was just trying to come up with something that Hurt might do that might cause that reaction in Smith and be considered a non-Doctor thing to do. Deliberately killing the TARDIS to create the time tunnel, or even allowing the TARDIS to shut herself down for that purpose, seemed to me to fit the bill.

Hey, I’m not trying to shoot down any theory – they’re all good and keep me far too distracted 🙂  I do think that the non-Doctor action is likely to be of a more personal nature such as TARDIS related or to do with his departure from Gallifrey than of the genocidal, war mongering, planet burning type.  I did wonder if it might be related to Susan’s parents and why he felt it necessary to go on the run with his Granddaughter, but suspect that may be too far removed from younger viewers who’ve only joined AG.

 
 the three versions of the Doctor coalescing into one, thereby eradicating the Valeyard and other canon baggage (such as regeneration limits) and affecting the Doctor fundamentally, setting a new course.

Also, another argument in favour of the Hurt Doctor being a future Doctor – past, present and future all together.

One matter of interest, to me anyway, was the “daisest daisy” line from Pertwee  as Smith fell – which easily leads you to thinking about the hermit teacher and K’Anpo Rimpoche – and the idea that more than one form of the one Time Lord can exist simultaneously and then merge as in Planet of the Spiders.

Good spot, completely passed me by (on several viewings.  I’d like to say it’s due to the dangers of watching with an 18 month old, but given the amount that commentators on this website and the Gruan manage to highlight that passes me by, hardly surprising.)  As you say, leads thoughts towards your coalescing theory, but also points back at his younger life on Gallifrey.  Perhaps we will find out more about why he ran away after all?

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@shazzbot thank you for sticking up for me. I didn’t think asking about how exactly jack became a head in the jar is a silly question.

I know how he became immortal and that he was the face of no I just don’t know how he became fully bodied to just a head and I don’t think at this has been address in Torchwood or doctor who.

Maybe matts role is small in the Xmas special

[Anonymous @]

Tennantmarsters2013 – “Maybe matts role is small in the Xmas special”

Now, you and @bluesqueakpip are on the same page.  He comes back as a small boy!  😉

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@phaseshift
I’m not sure what memories have to do with this really, unless you spotted some reference to it in “Name of the Doctor”.
I didn’t mean there was any specific reference to memories, because, like you, I don’t think there were in Name of the Doctor. My thinking was that if the “tracks of tears” showed the “ghosts” of the Eleventh (as he describes the earlier Doctors) it was effectively showing his memories and his future. So, I wondered why Clara did not come across Hurt.
Sure, the Doctor will remember everything about it, but Clara jumps into his personal twisty “time tunnel” From Gallifrey to Trenzalore. She’d have access to most, but the parts of his life that exist in the Time War? I think his existence and actions in it would be subject to the Time Lock. I don’t think there is any reference to her having his memories.
But if that is the case, how then could Hurt be the Doctor involved in the Time War? I thought your earlier argument was:
whatever aspects of the Doctors Timeline that fought in the war are still there.
 
I am not arguing – just trying to understand. I think we should be able to work out the most likely explanation for Hurt and I am genuinely interested on what everyone here thinks, given how much of the debate I have missed.
If Clara can see him now, are you saying that is because the Doctor is there with her and opening up access to his suppressed memory?  That makes sense I think.
I think if anyone wants to look for holes, you can argue that this is left ambiguous, but in conjunction with Clara’s “So that’s who” as she reads the Time War book, she learns the name from the book. The Doctor warns her not to go looking for his name. I think NotD gives us the reason for this.

I am not looking for holes. I just think it is ambiguous.

Certainly, my instant reaction was that she had learnt his name by reading the book. But, whatever else you might say about the History it was not tiny, especially not in comparison to Clara, and she did say:
 
            You have a name. I have seen it. In one corner of that tiny…

If she read it in the History, why didn’t she just say she saw it in the book? It does seem like she is referring to something else. Why would she refer to the History as tiny?

And I get that I am thick, but what is it about Name of the Doctor that gives the reason for Clara not to go looking for his name? Why is it okay for River to know it but no one else?
 
The person who wears this name isn’t “The Doctor” to his mind.
 
Yes, which was made me think that Hurt was Doctor Zero and we were heading for a complete re-set.
 
But it still seems to me to work best of all if Smith entering the “track of tear” exposes him to his future and he knows what Hurt has done in his future. And in the 50th he changes it, no matter at what cost to himself. This makes the 50th all about the future of the Doctor and it lets Moffat use timey-wimey to provide a solution – a paradox and a change of timeline: all signature Moffat devices.
 
There is a part of me which hopes, sincerely, that you and @jimthefish are correct and that Hurt is either the aged 8th or the real 9th – but I am just not sure that it fits properly with what we have been told. Not that that would be a barrier, of course. And nor am I sure that Moffat will be that obvious.
 
 
I hope the 50th is a “small” story about the nature of the Doctor, why he travels and interferes, what he stands for. Who he is.
 

@osakahatter

Also, another argument in favour of the Hurt Doctor being a future Doctor – past, present and future all together.

Brilliant! And given all those religious readings recently…

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@shazzbot haha I love this bonkers theory!

I meant he may only be in it for few minutes but probably not. So the Williams adopted a small boy and it’s the doctor in some sort of weird timey wimey fashion

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – “I hope the 50th is a “small” story about the nature of the Doctor, why he travels and interferes, what he stands for. Who he is.”

Well, this is the one to have a full cinema release, so a small story is probably, sadly, out of the equation.  I’m worried about Michael Bay-stylee explosions and frenetically fast-paced action sequences.  Perhaps the Christmas special could be that hoped-for small story?

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot and @tennantmarsters2013

You fill me with terror.

Please, by the great TARDIS in the sky, can we be done with the Ponds and their impossible family.

Sorry!

P.S. @Shazzbot        Maybe that errant J is my subconscious…Jeff rather than Geoff…. 🙂

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Oh, I don’t know.

A small story about who he is does not discount big set-pieces where the Doctor recounts a cinematic adventure…

 

[Anonymous @]

Hey Jeff ( @htpbdet ) – it wasn’t my theory, blame @bluesqueakpip!  😀

Yes, the Ponds had an entire half-series to say goodbye.  And were name-checked in the new series.  Please, let them go gently into that good night.

But speaking of which … How the heck does Rose get into the 50th?!  She had two heart-breaking on-the-beach scenes to say goodbye.  I love her character to bits, but I can’t fathom what her role could possibly be in the 50th.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Well, I think either we encounter Tennant and Rose in their travels prior to Doomsday or it is the alternate world Tennant and Rose. If the latter, I would not be surprised, at all, if Rose is killed off.

 

[Anonymous @]

Jeff ( @htpbdet ) – “I would not be surprised, at all, if Rose is killed off.”

Oooh, that’s dark.  Just riffing on that a bit more, what if she and 10.x had a child in that alternate universe?

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@Shazzbot

Well, the Doctor would have to take him/her with his/her travels. And Clara would have someone to be governness to.

And I think I would probably vomit…

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@everyone – uh, if I’m suggesting Matt Smith is playing Anthony Brian Williams, he’d be an adult. I know Mr Smith looks about nine, but I don’t think he could actually play it.

No babies on the TARDIS, please. If the Doctor regenerates as a baby, expect her/him to be rapidly fostered out in another time-stream and return as an entirely grown-up actor. Working time restrictions mean it would be almost impossible to have a baby/child actor playing a main part.

(Did you notice how the two kids in Nightmare in Silver had lots of quickly-doable shots of standing still and saying nothing?)

[Anonymous @]

@htpbdet – I am so doing a belly laugh right now.  😀

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

Oh god I hope it’s not meta-crisis doctor!! If anything I want the actual tenth doctor. And your right @shazzbot rose has had two heartbreaking goodbyes and really don’t get why she is in the 50th unless it has something to do with badwolf of course.

If she gets a third goodbye then why can’t we have Donna or Martha? Much prefer them to rose personally.

@bluesqueakpip is this Anthony Brian Williams actually going to be in the 50th or are we still theorising?

I’m gonna look that up now haha

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

Ahh! I’ve just watched the story on YouTube of what happened to the ponds…ok that’s a curve ball.

I don’t know what to make of it other than if the doctor ends up as him then that’s kind of messed up. He would be married to his sister

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@tennantmarsters2013 – theorising, of course.:)

He does exist, though; he’s the adopted son of Amy and Rory.

But given that it was carefully established that River’s time-bracelet can go where the TARDIS can’t, and that the Ponds adopted several years after you’d expect there to be a lot of abandoned war-babies, I can’t quite work out whether he’s simply a round-off to the Pond’s story (they did have their family, after all) or a plot-point.

 

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@bluesqueakpip ah I see now. I think it’s just tying off there story. Unless they are planning on bringing them back aswell for the 50th or at least him.

Is there anyone else that you would want in the anniversary (companion wise) captain jack would be a good one and considering David denied all part in it up until a few months ago then anything is possible

[Coffeemonster @coffeemonster]

Hi, I’m new here, I’ve been reading this site for a while without commenting (and I’m sorry if that’s bad manners) I’m not a native English speaker, so I hope you’ll forgive me if I make some spelling mistakes. I really like this forum, theorizing away like this gives Doctor Who an extra dimension, imo.

I think I have a theory about the Hurt doctor that hasn’t been mentioned before (please correct me if I’m wrong). It’s maybe even to bonkers for this site, but I’ll give it a try.
I was thinking about A nightmare in silver. In this episode the cybercontroller implied that the doctor, by erasing himself from history, created holes that could be used to reconstruct him.

This let me to two different theories:
What if Hurt is the doctor created by the holes left by the eleventh? In that way he is part of the doctor as in part of the holes created by the doctor, but he is also not part of the doctor, because he is created by an alien species. Maybe he was created out of the gaps and forced to do bad by whoever recreated him. And to stop this he did something very bad, which we will see in the anniversary special.

Talking about gaps, what if the doctor actually erased a bit too much? What if the doctor, by erasing himself from history, created the silence? In that case, the Hurt doctor would be the person that deleted all the history and the anniversary special will be all about exploding libraries and databases.

When I’m writing this down, I think it’s not likely that one of these theories is true, but I would like them to be true.

Thank you for reading! 🙂

[Anonymous @]

Well, hello @Coffeemonster !  Glad to have you here on our forum, and I must say that’s a cracking first post.  What is your first language?  You seem to have a good handle on English; I’d have never known it wasn’t your native language.

Right then, to your theories:  Yes, that whole ‘holes’ thing from NiS surely has to be important.  And it does link to the Hurt Doctor in that context – a construction by other beings, trying to create the Doctor from what was absent, what was missing – and in doing so, created something which simply couldn’t have ‘the name of the Doctor’.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

Welcome @Coffemonster

Your notion about the Hurt Doctor being created from the holes left by the Doctor is interesting – and, indeed, one I considered myself, given the specific mention in Nightmare in Silver.

But, I think the problem is that Hurt is found in the Doctor’s “track of tears” – if he was created by someone else using the holes vacated by the Doctor, it did not seem to me that he would be part of the real Doctor’s timeline.

What do you think?

I do not think that the Doctor-erased-too-much theory could work though – because all the Doctor is doing is wiping out knowledge about him and his journey – and I don’t see how covering one’s tracks would or could create the Silence.

But you may well be right…

🙂

[Coffeemonster @coffeemonster]

@htpbdet That’s indeed a bit tricky. But it helps that the Hurt doctor only seems to make partially part of the timeline. I imagine it as if the holes created by the doctor are part of the doctor, the “created doctor” uses these holes as a sort of parasite. So the parasite part doesn’t make part of the doctor, but the holes-part does… As I said, I don’t think it very likely that this is the case, but I’m sure that if it’s the case, Moffat will explain it a lot better!

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@coffeemonster I love this theory however I have a slight problem with it (can’t say on here as it could be classed as a spoiler to anyone who hasn’t seen season 7)

John hurt as a creation someone made out of the holes he left by being deleted? As appealing as it sounds and it would be an amazing story but how did he get into the doctors time stream and how did 11 recognise him??

Although reading your 2nd theory makes even more sense and totally what Moffat would do. The doctor is the silence and the founder of that and it would be John hurt doctor who created the silence.

I am still convinced that the 50th is about e time war and John hurt ended said time war.

[Coffeemonster @coffeemonster]

@Shazzbot Thank you for the complement! I actually typed my post first in Word, so I could use the spellchecker… My country is surrounded by England, Belgium and Germany and I’ve always learned that it’s important to know at least the languages of your neighbours, (in order to make good money).

I’m happy you don’t regard my theory as to bonkers for words!

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@htpbdet

I didn’t mean there was any specific reference to memories, because, like you, I don’t think there were in Name of the Doctor.

It was a genuine question – I couldn’t remember anything, but when you responded it seemed to indicate you thought she had access to his memories. Viewing his physical existence and sharing his memories are very different things, and memories would have discounted the idea to a certain extent.

If Clara can see him now, are you saying that is because the Doctor is there with her and opening up access to his suppressed memory? That makes sense I think.

Hmmm. Back to memories. No – what I’m suggesting is that if you take the Doctors timeline, his actual physical existence and split it up into incarnations, periods composed of the years of his life, then some of those years took place in the Timewar. Everything about that period is timelocked, according to Journeys end. Presumably even those years of the Doctors life that existed in it. So, to me, that’s a good reason that, having supposedly viewed his life – past, present and future via his “time-track”, Clara couldn’t see this one. He remembers it – every action, but she couldn’t see the parts of his life that are time-locked. I can’t think of any other event that fits the bill.

An event that has been largely ignored in SMs run until the book turned up in JttCotT. 😉

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@phaseshift

What your saying makes a whole load of sense. That doctor was locked away in the time war so Clara wouldn’t of seen him.

And John being the time war doctor is probably going to be the case but he could also be the valeyard could he not?

On a side note I love John hurt just when he speaks brings shivers down my spine

[Coffeemonster @coffeemonster]

@phaseshift

An event that has been largely ignored in SMs run until the book turned up in JttCotT. 😉

I didn’t realize that! If you put it like that it seems very likely that the Anniversary special has something to do with the Timewar. But the problem for me is the cast. If Tennant and Smith are really in the next episode, how can it be about the Timewar? That’s very wibbly wobbly! Of course, the Hurt doctor can be this Timewar doctor, but why would they cast Tennant together with the Timewar doctor?

Ideas anybody? 🙂

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

Maybe they get involved somehow because the time stream is collapsing they are forced to get involved because of the time stream situation.

Which leads me to think he is the valeyard @coffeemonster

Maybe it’s bad wolf?

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@phaseshift
Viewing his physical existence and sharing his memories are very different things, and memories would have discounted the idea to a certain extent.
I guess this the issue between us. I can’t see how the “track of tears” cannot contain memories and my view is re-inforced by the way various snatches of speech from the past – which can only be memories, can’t they? – which are heard by the Doctor and Clara from inside the “track of tears”.
No – what I’m suggesting is that if you take the Doctors timeline, his actual physical existence and split it up into incarnations, periods composed of the years of his life, then some of those years took place in the Timewar. Everything about that period is timelocked, according to Journeys end. Presumably even those years of the Doctors life that existed in it.
But, if that is right, and clearly it could be, probably is, how does it make Hurt the one who sealed the Time War? All of his actions would be in the seal, but he is in the “track of tears”, so why wouldn’t Clara have encountered him? And if he is there, doing something he shouldn’t (from the Doctor’s point of view), why wouldn’t the Impossible Girl stop him from sealing the Time War?
(I have to say I thought that might be what happened as the episode played out – that she would stop the Doctor from sealing the Time War, thereby saving him – but it would turn out to be a save that was crucially wrong, unleashing the Time Lords and everything else. When it didn’t happen, I assumed that that was a moment where the GI did not seek to intervene, because it suited the GI for the Time War to be sealed)
And, more importantly, if sealing the Time War was an act the Doctor disapproves of in such a fundamental way as to disown his own self because of it, why has he not taken a single step to unseal it?
The Time War is An event that has been largely ignored in SMs run until the book turned up in JttCotT.
 
Yes, true enough. But then, just before the “track of tears” was introduced, something else was mentioned in passing that Moffat has not given any focus to either: The Valeyard.
I go back to my starting point: it just seems to me we are meant to think Hurt is the version of the Doctor involved in sealing the Time War. But I think that is too obvious for Moffat.
I guess I am just expecting it to be more timey-wimey, paradoxical and alternate time-line in nature: because that sort of stuff is Moffat’s trade-mark.
On the other hand, I am also expecting it to make sense – and maybe it just won’t.
On the other other hand, nothing they do will ever live up to every viewer’s individual expectations about the Time War, unless they dedicate an entire season to exploring the issues and the consequences. And it seems unlikely they would do that with a new Doctor – if Smith had stayed a further year, I could see that a full series devoted to the Time War could be something.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@coffeemonster        No theory is too bonkers for words. Not here anyway!

[Whisht @whisht]

My goodness – I think I disagree/ have a different interpretation to @htpbdet.

erm (breathes in) I think that the “track of tears”, the “scar”, is is not memories at all. It is a ‘physical’ tear in space and time (like a mass of wormholes). Anything seen or heard in those ‘tunnels’ are an echo of real events (rather than a memory which is a subjective interpretation of events).

Now, how did the HurtDoc get there? He appears to have entered it like Smith and Clara have.

Could another regeneration of the Doctor have condemned him to the scar to live forever – regretting his actions as he looks across the desolation?
They could do this by travelling in the Tardis to the scar and making him walk in, then sealing the scar using the Doctors birthname.

Btw – I think the reason that The Doctor was not meant to get to Trenzalore was to not allow anyone access to this incredible phenomenon (the scar) – something that could give someone (like the GI) access to some of the most crucial moments in Time and Space, to work their nefarious deeds (eg defeating the Doctor and turning out the lights/stars so that ‘silence will fall’).

I had a bonkers theory ages ago which had the Silence as guarding something valuable/destructive for the Doctor ie he actually asked them to guard it. This is still possible (though now completely irrelevant!).

hope some of this made sense!

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@Shazzbot Yeah, you’re probably right. My apologies to @tennantmarsters2013 I was tired and quite stressed last night and overreacted. But only by a bit. You do like your questions don’t you?

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@whisht

For heaven’s sake! Never be afraid to disagree with me!

This is what the Doctor says:

            Time travel is damage. It’s like a tear in the fabric of reality. That is the scar tissue of my journey through the universe. My path through time and space from Gallifrey to Trenzalore *…My own personal time tunnel. All the days…even the ones I haven’t lived yet…which is why I shouldn’t be here. The paradoxes. It’s very bad.

Where I have marked *, there are memories – or at least snatches of conversations from various points in the Doctor’s life.
 
Later he describes his own time tunnel as his timeline.
 
I just can’t see how his timeline does not contain memories – whether they are Smith’s memories, the final Doctor’s memories or the actual actions of each incarnation – those things are all the same, really, in the timeline. Aren’t they? I agree they are not subjective memories – they are memories of what actually happened; or, put the other way, they are the actual events coming across as echoes, ghosts or memories. But either way, they represent the totality of all of the good and bad days the Doctor has lived.
 
I don’t think it changes my musings above though
 
Could another regeneration of the Doctor have condemned him to the scar to live forever – regretting his actions as he looks across the desolation?
They could do this by travelling in the Tardis to the scar and making him walk in, then sealing the scar using the Doctors birthname.
This is inspired. Truly inspired.
I hope you are right about this actually – I was thrilled just reading it – seeing it turn out that way would be utterly fabulous.
And entirely possible.
 
And if you are right, then Hurt is definitely either old 8 or the real 9 as @phaseshift and @jimthefish have speculated.

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Woooooah! Lots of theorising going on the minute my back’s turned, LOL!

It’s difficult to speculate on the 50th when we’re not even sure where it will start. eg I can see them assuming the Dr and Clara can simply jump out of the timeline/scar – the Dr was able to find Clara OK (once he sent her the leaf to act as a signal), it’s reasonable to assume he could get back to the console room OK – he has the advantage over anyone else that it’s his timeline.

I agree with @whisht‘s interpretation of the “track of tears”.  We’re told it’s a scar in the fabric of time, a wound (in time) caused by the Dr’s travels, which is gradually fading. We’re also told it’s “collapsing in on itself” (this rapid change caused by the various intruders) – which for me, explains why Hurt Dr is findable – whatever blocks were put round his existence are breaking down with the rest of the timeline scar tissue.

In NiS the cyberplanner finds a “block” which hides info about Clara – who knows what else is blocked off (or why there is a block there at all – is it self imposed, and if not, who/what put it there?).  Thanks also to @coffeemonster for picking up on the Dr shaped hole the cyberplanner mentioned.

If the track of tears disappears – what does that imply about the universe’s memory of the Dr – has he now disappeared?

But I could equally see the 50th being about them trying to escape the collapsing timeline, except that I suspect they’ll want to do something more stand alone – using it as a selling tool for a Dr film franchise and a setting up for post 50th travels. I’m with @htpbdet in wanting a small story again (most of 7.2 was like that), something character driven but with big explosive brain twisting concept 😉

[Tennantmarsters2013 @tennantmarsters2013]

@craig that’s fine and understandable.

I’m having bit of a hard time personally at the moment so if I snap I don’t mean to :/

Yes I do love my questions I’m very inquisitive. Everytime I work through someone’s theory I go yeah that could work but then I find another one that could work. We’re gonna come to a point where there is that many possibilities that no one is completely right and that’s what I love about theorising XD

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Tennantmarsters2013

Re point we have so many theories no one is completely right – we passed that a long time ago, I think! (There’s a mountain of discarded theories – round the back of the sofa, the last time I saw them). Much too late to stop now!

I keep bouncing between Hurt Dr as 0, 2.5, 8, real 9 or post 11.  If he started the Time War (or caused its crucial escalation) – maybe with the best of intentions – like the scientists in 1940s developing the atom bomb – or under pressure to save a companion – that would explain why Eccleston (or McGann) had to seal it in the timelock.

I’m coming back to speculating that we’ve maybe not seen all of Clara’s back story yet – coming back to that block in 11’s head in NiS. It’s clearly important that the cyberplanner doesn’t know what Clara is, it’s also clear from JttCotT that the Dr has no idea who she is, so if the block is self imposed it’s very well done. Did Clara put it there (after becoming split)… or did someone/thing else do it?

(@htpbdet – I’m not sure that Smith has ever referred to hm as the eleventh but there’s been lots of references to 11 throughout his tenure and in 7.2, it was clearly stated (in NiS and NotD) that there were 10 previous incarnations. That doesn’t exclude HurtDr being in his past, but he has been very deeply hidden – only the collapsing track of tears allows him to be found).

Tennant’s casting is also intriguing – how CAN he be there? If 11 meets/has met 10, then surely 11 would remember? Unless he’s a flashback, 10.2, or a Zygon!

[Whisht @whisht]

he he – thanks @htpbdet! (I’m not really afraid, it was more friendly tongue-in-cheek, as you are a rather good writer and memory of the show!)

The reason I wanted to differentiate between memories and ‘physical’ tunnels and physical echoes, is that its easy to conflate the block the Cybercontroller found in Smith’s memories (Smith knows of HurtDoc but blocks off that memory through disgust/disappointment), with the ‘physicality’ of HurtDoc simply being in the “scar” (for whatever reason).
If he was hidden in the scar, it was more like he was hidden in a maze, rather than blocked off in a mind.

But glad you liked my bonkersness – I had written “I’ve no idea how he got there…” and then just thought, well, maybe he …

🙂

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