The Fox Inn
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Craig 7 years, 6 months ago.
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4 July 2016 at 09:35 #53084
Anonymous @
that was @xad4 my big mistake.
Spologies
4 July 2016 at 09:44 #53085For cying out loud! Am I domed to be misunderstood?
The ‘police are treating this as a suspicous death.’ This was reported on the early news show yesterday.
My point was, one would suppose that finding a body in a suitcase, floating downstream, would be somewhat suspicious. I was being ironic.
Missy
4 July 2016 at 09:54 #53086I don’t think Son understood what you were saying that’s all. Your explanation above is something more like what he will understand, alright?
I can see your point: I think he thought you were being funny or found it funny. I guess the fact is police investigate every crime and in most cases it’s reported absolutely correctly by the authorities as a “suspicious death” -that’s as far as their comments legally can go. Effectively, ALL reports are explained this way.
I think he either misunderstood or the explanation didn’t tally. He’s generally a very polite young man but I will apologise on his behalf. We are the hybrid after all and work for, and about, each other.
PuroSolo
4 July 2016 at 13:04 #53087@puroandson
Basically, I’d say: ‘This is what a revolution looks like’. 🙂 I’m sure there were people in the English Civil War muttering that going to war over a Ship tax was silly, and who the heck was affected by the Star Chamber anyway?
The long term causes had short term trigger points. I’d say it’s very similar for this Brexit: in future years historians are going to be able to dig out the real long term causes. My guess at the moment is that it’s going to come down to ‘The UK just didn’t fit into the EU and the EU tried to integrate too quickly’.
That is, we are almost the only country in Europe where our Constitutional Revolution happened nearly 400 years ago, haven’t been successfully invaded (except by our constituent countries) in over 900 years and where, as a result, the constitution has grown organically. Add to that that the English and Welsh legal system is based on precedent and common law rather than the Roman law basis of most of the other EU countries, that economic integration is pretty spotty (we kept the pound because of that) and you get …
… that the changes required to fit into the EU were, in the end, too much for the UK to cope with. The EU tried to introduce them too quickly; even with various opt-outs, a very large section of the UK population didn’t follow. Add a referendum, and you get Brexit.
I don’t think most people reasoned that out; they just knew they felt unhappy. Too many little decisions being made that weren’t the ones they would have made. Not enough understanding of how the general public could change the directives. Not enough understanding of why they’d been made in the first place, when the previous system was working. An attitude from the EU that they governed FOR the good of the people, and that took precedence over popular votes. But the UK conception of government is that you govern BY the consent of the people (hopefully for everyone’s good).
The trigger points were stupid little things like EU regulations on rivers, popularised and mythologised; no ’emergency brake’ when freedom of movement resulted in mass migration, and a slogan like ‘Take Back Control’.
The big thing that all Westminster, every party, missed was that a revolution was brewing. People don’t care about economics in a revolution – they WILL bring the entire country down if it’ll only get rid of the system of government. So far, we’re fortunate that the ‘revolution’ feeling has been expressed via the ballot box; hopefully that’ll earth the lightning strike.
4 July 2016 at 15:17 #53088Still on the subject of BREXIT but in a somewhat lighter vein and highly appropriate in relation to the main purpose of this Forum, people might like to check this out.
Much to consider in the posts since yesterday evening (UK time) and I will respond when I have time. Meanwhile I need to replenish food stocks and the main question is, whether or not to risk walking to the city centre and back without a walking stick.
5 July 2016 at 00:03 #53096Hi @mudlark – just to say, I wholeheartedly agree with your post.
As for walking far without the stick….. personally, I’d bring it.
If it turned out I didn’t need it, I’d twirl it around and laugh at anyone who bothered looking, with a “yeah – you know, this is fucking ace, I’m walking“.But that’s just me.
Take care and glad you’re even considering it!
🙂5 July 2016 at 02:32 #53097For those that want a reasoned look at the impacts with actual evidence, rather than Debby Form Derby’s fact-free nonsense the Financial Times has put together a good primer. (You may need to sign in but can register for free).
5 July 2016 at 03:30 #53099the paper of reasoned repute is The Financial Review in Australia. I stay away, where I can though from Murdoch and Fairfax papers and that’s difficult at the best of times.
Onto the Aus election which is turning into a (wonderful) nightmare for Turnbull. Never has a man come so close to defeat whilst entering the gladiatorum with better weapons, a sharper wit and more support and hard cash.
His rambling speech was ill-considered and by every conservative reporter (friends of Malcolm) deemed “grubby” and “pathetic”. The Labourites can sit back and grin their “vile” smiles.
5 July 2016 at 03:50 #53100I’m with @whisht -take the stick (by now you’re home and asleep so I hope your shopping trip was a success)
It’ll be a longish wait for the final counts.
People say “there’s no counting on Monday” but some voters should know that counting occurs -re-counts, hospital and postal votes. There’s just no new counts starting until today. Senate counts occur after the Lower House -as they have to be moved centrally & it’s constitutionally binding.
Just on Malcolm’s dreadful speech, his comment about “living under terrible debt, deficit and higher taxes” is complete nonsense. But then unlike most people I believe in “debt” running -not aspiring to books in the black.
Kill me for that if you need to, I aint a conservative and I’m happy to be labelled a “communist” by the commercial telly followers who have no knowledge of what Communism actually is. To know me is know that I’m not a Communist by any definition.
It would be good to have some Aussies on Forum talking about our politics but I understand that many people prefer to keep all talk of theology and politics close to home.
I always think the more the merrier -it’s one way to learn about how to organise, prep speeches and practise delivery when you happen to have dinner “partays” and guests start banging on about the CFMEU and how “unions in my day were kept away from politics and knew where they stood being a bunch of bellyaching arrivistes stealing all our hard earned money.” Once, being host to such a twunt, I threw an expensive wine in this guest’s face. He came back a month later so he probably forgot the rant and subsequent drenching or saw the error of his ways. 🙂
Kindest,
Puro and Son
5 July 2016 at 05:13 #53101Lisa, I think you and I are on a learning curve with the Brexit situation.
Let’s look at this together. The article which @pedant linked to suggested some interesting aspects at play. I’m always suspicious of articles which don’t provide a balanced recognition of all the facts -certainly @bluesqueakpip was able to answer many of my questions I placed before the Forum regarding what the UK was like prior to 1973. In all honesty, I would not have understood the importance of that date one week ago -hence the learning ( 🙂
So the article above does provide an ‘alternative’ view and it’s helped me as I’ve then looked at other articles. As a defence analyst and small time academic I’ve always preached “check your sources and then check their provenance and then do it again two weeks later.”
It’s real easy to cut and paste an article and say loudly “this point works in favour of Leave” when it’s boldly Rightist. And I know you work fiercely for the DEMS in the States.
So, we can understand these points:
The EU raised UK prosperity by about 10%. Certainly post war escalation can effect statistical conclusions and correlations. In other words there’s a post war ‘surge’ which should be taken into account.
More immediately, the UK will be mobbed by those wanting deals with the US and yet current and future congressional responses will be “the UK is at the back of the queue”. This is opposite to the opinion that the US will “definitely want to make a deal with the UK.”
No, it won’t -not easily.
The UK has no current schedules on tariffs or sufficient understandings of commitments to agricultural subsidies (this is from another source I have found). In order to negotiate the best possible deals with member states the UK will need to create 77 separate arrangements -that’s an incredibly difficult bureaucracy to fathom.
Often ‘Leavers’ complain that the immigrants are causing headaches. I don’t know if that’s your view but as a DEM you would applaud the movement of people seeking a better life? Most DEMS and non-conservatives prefer a global arrangement providing it safeguards people’s livelihoods and in the UK migrants contributed more to the UK than they received.
What do you think about those particular statements?
Awaiting your response with anticipation -because good debates are essential and changing or reassessing viewpoints is refreshing -it’s like jumping into an icy pool after a hot sauna!
@mudlark I just read that link to the Doctor -how wonderful. I think PC was drawn very well and even I could recognise and name the other pollies and agenda-making ‘gentleman’. What a hoot!
Puro
5 July 2016 at 09:15 #53102Great cartoon, thank you.
@puroandson;
Explanation and apology accepted. The language of the police gets dafter by the year. “Person of interest,” instead of ‘suspect” just one example.
Missy
5 July 2016 at 12:25 #53103@purofilion I agree with you re’ debt and tax. We lived in Sweden for a year, a country with extremely high tax and the standard of living was to be admired. Tax equals services. The Cut Tax adds really annoy me. Do people realise why we pay tax? I am certain that a fair percentage of the electorate don’t. I share also your abhorrence of Murdoch press. I commented on the dishonesty of the huge placard promising that a Coalition vote means a strong economy. The guy handing out “how to votes” for the Libs informed me that Murdoch press is the only reputable news. He was also the individual behind covering a hill with houses a few years ago in what is surely the ugliest housing estate in the North. Not a tree to be seen and ironically the named the streets after native birds.
Was interesting to see the rising in popularity of the minor parties this election. I suspect though that was in part due to dissatisfaction with Lab and Lib.
Cheers
Janette
5 July 2016 at 12:52 #53104@janetteb Yep that’d be right -no-one is perceived to be delivering and the minor parties stance against Labour’s factionalism and the Liberal’s “lack of conservatism” is causing a ton of problems.
To those on the Forum who query why I’d stipulate a lack of conservatism is that a few parties and independents truly believe that the LNP isn’t far Right enough -they have conscience votes on same sex marriage and euthanasia whereas other smaller parties are a bit tougher -all in all they’d like small (enough) government just big enough to fit in someone’s bedroom (of course that phrase has been used many times before).
What’s funny is the AEC getting all confused about the ‘how to count and preference’ properly.
Every commercial news station is taking their lead from the AEC -lordy and all this fluff about “six more seats” and we can “call the election” but only if we preference them the way no-body else does.
Then they conveniently forget the momentum of postal votes (mainly rural and therefore country party aligned).
Leigh Sales spent 7 and a half hours on election night and said at the end: “suck on that Kerry O’Brien” 🙂 because in all his election analyses he never quite made it to 7 hours and thirty minutes ((7 hours and 26 mins was his record). Blimey and she’s pregnant, I think??
<unsure about the bump>
5 July 2016 at 15:55 #53105@puroandson
Sorry I didn’t get back with you sooner. Yesterday was the 4th of July holiday and I was holiday making
and not checking messages and mail.
So I agree with you that @bluesqueakpip post the other day was another brilliant one. But I have to suggest
a few things here. First of all I believe the media blaming the Brexitors for voting as they did based on
immigration and free travel was, I think, extremely disingenuous. That’s not how they got to 52%.
There were many Doctor Debbies, nurse Debbies, teacher Debbies, Small business Debbies, etc….
that all voted because of the squeeze on services and over reaching regulation. They followed
the dots to the trade debt. The UK has this trade debt because they import more then they export. This
means that when you have this sort of situation you have to either pay it off or pay the interest on it.
In order to pay the interest you need to take funds from wherever you can get them. They took them
from services. Its called debt austerity. The reason the have this trade imbalance is because they
belong to the EU and the EU makes the rules, regulations and laws about this stuff. Cameron couldn’t
do anything about it. He was completely ineffective. So lots of people suffering from austerity
conditions one way or another (including Education and the NHS) were getting really mad. There
wasn’t anything they could do about it except this protest vote. You see you cant vote the bureaucrats
in the EU out of office the way you can in a real democracy. Because they aren’t real elected officials.
They are installed into those positions thru corporate influence. These are all facts. Google it.
They control how all the trade works. They aren’t interested in how the people feel. The interest is all about
corporate profits. The UK is limited by the EU in how much and who they can trade with. This is wrong!
So if you follow the dots it all leads back to Brussels. That is why the Brexit campaign showed the big poster
about funding of the NHS. The Brexitors understood that message. It was about the squeeze to all services.
Then there are the huge sums of money that the UK has to pay into the union for which they aren’t getting
terribly good return on but again, because of the EU’s creative bookkeeping tactics they try to make it look
like all the grants were terrific deals. Now where is all this money going? Well some very large chunks of it
went to bail out France a few years ago, then Greece, recently it was Portugal, soon it maybe Italy. This
should in itself set off alarms. The ECB is broke. They are charging negative interest rates on bank deposits
and bonds. So instead of being bled out of in many cases life savings the Europeans are putting their money
into the stock markets like the DAX, FTSE, and NY exchanges which to them are like flights to safety and the
opportunity to earn some sort of dividend. This is a wrong neo-liberal macro economic policy. The EU is
in debt bondage. They cant expand. Why does any one think this is good? The Brexitors want
to take back control. I understand this attitude. The economy will continue to be stacked against
them if they stick with the EU. Do you want to continue to support this unelected undemocratic
bureaucracy or do you want to support national health and education and other social spending?
This is what they were thinking.
The last thing I will say is that I found it very interesting that so many people googled what the EU
was after the vote. They probably were from everywhere in the world but I have a hunch that it
wasn’t a lot of brexitors doing that. They already had the EU all figured out. But tbh its still
troubling to think that so many people that could be influenced by the EU don’t understand it very well
let alone the EU’s trade policies and ramifications. But it reinforced my notion that all the Doctor Debbies
and nurse Debbies etc. knew exactly what they were protesting against.
5 July 2016 at 20:59 #53107@puroandson
Don’t forget that the UK already has bilateral agreements with other countries including the
European ones in addition to the EU treaties. Also they wont have to follow the EU codes anymore
which will be very good. The Brexit vote was just the first step and they have plenty of time.
A minimum of 2 years before the divorce. There has to be hundreds of examples of every kind of treaty
imaginable. I have no doubt that the UK has scholars that will be able to provide a framework
on how to proceed. Once the new PM and other cabinet changes happen the process will begin.
Lots of corporations have already dropped hints that there will be an orderly change to single
market status. Osborne wants to cut corporate taxes. There will be trips to China and India etc.
Basically I think all the anxiety is over blown. I think the EU will even end up compromising
on free movement. They will get to the finish line and be much better off when they arrive there.
5 July 2016 at 21:20 #531085 July 2016 at 23:37 #53109http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/20150201PVL00004/Legislative-powers
Everyone in the EU is allowed opinions but the council makes the law.
This is an EU lawyer. Of course he represents the EU. But it IS the council that makes the
big decisions. I think he may have been a tad disingenuous about what he says about the EU.
Sorry 🙁 Still think the only people that support the EU have vested interests in it and that the EU
is extremely corporatist.
6 July 2016 at 00:06 #53110@whisht @puroandson
I did it! I walked into the city and back, a round trip of just over two miles, towing a laden wheeled shopping bag on the way back. I tucked a folding walking stick into the bag in case of need, but it wasn’t required, My legs felt very slightly unsteady to begin with but … freedom, and no pain 🙂
@lisa I looked in around 4pm intending to write a response to your posts #53065 and 53076, but after reading post #53105 I felt a need to step back, take several deep breaths, go for a walk around the garden and then find something else with which to occupy myself for an hour or two. Without going into detail, suffice it to say that I disagree, quite strongly, with many of the points you make. The EU is an unwieldy and flawed institution and the global economic crash has caused serious problems within the Euro zone but, as I see it, it has overall been of net benefit to its members, socially as well as economically – and I have been around since well before the EEC came into being The problems caused by global economics, the deregulation of the banks and financial sector which led ultimately to the 2008 crash, and the social and economic policies adopted by successive UK governments have led to the obscene and widening economic and social gulf in the UK, and the EU is not to blame for that, though it was the anger and disaffection that this caused which tipped the balance in the referendum. The Murdoch press and other right wing tabloids, as outlets for the views of people opposed to the EU, either ideologically or from vested interest, have encouraged, even promoted the belief that the EU and not our own government is the cause of most of the problems we face. People kicked back, and with good reason, but they were facing the wrong target.
I do not dispute that there are doctors and nurses and teachers etc. who voted leave, although demographic analysis after the event suggests that they were more likely to be aged over 50. There are also well informed doctors, teachers and other professionally qualified people, including myself, who voted to remain, and to suggest that we did not know what we were voting for is, frankly, offensive. There were also many on both sides who were not well informed. Neither campaign was well conducted, and neither did anything to clear the fog, but it was the leave campaign in particular which resorted to outright distortion and lies. And yes, immigrants were perceived to be an issue, if not the issue, among some of the electorate, as attested by any number of vox pop. interviews on radio and tv.
But to return to my original intention:
As @pedant pointed out, dredging and desilting of rivers in the UK is not controlled by the EU. The management of rivers used to be the responsibility of local river boards composed of local farmers and landowners, but in 1997 it was transferred to a national body, the newly created Environmental Agency. The European Water Framework Directive is concerned, among other things, with environmental matters – the reduction or elimination of pollution in rivers and the establishment and/or maintenance of a healthy aquatic ecology where possible, with less stringent objectives where human activity makes this unfeasible. It does not preclude or ban the desilting of rivers where necessary and any bureaucratic hold-ups or failures in that respect can be laid at the door of the Environmental Agency and the Treasury which funds it
The link is to an introductory page, but if you navigate around the site you will see that among other matters the Directive is also concerned with flood control and prevention – including research, the exchange of knowledge and experience between member states and the funding of works.
Dredging is, in any case, not a very efficient method of flood prevention since it simply shunts the problem further downstream into someone else’s back yard. Increased rainfall has led to a rise in the frequency and severity of floods, but there are other contributory causes. It has been demonstrated that trees on hillsides absorb enormous amounts of rainwater and thus control the rate of run-off. Deforestation of the hills, which began in prehistoric times, means that the water from rain falling on the hills reaches the rivers very rapidly. Field drainage above the valley floor also contributes to the rate of flow. In the river valleys themselves, flood plains have been built on, and water meadows, which were designed to flood seasonally and sometimes included elaborate water management systems, have been abandoned or drained. Reforestation of hills and a return of river basins to a more ‘natural’ state would, therefore help to mitigate the extent and severity of floods, and though farmers and others whose livelihoods were impacted would have to be recompensed, the benefits would outweigh the enormous cost of major floods.
That’s it for tonight; it’s getting late and although I had intended to comment on your post #53076, I had better leave that until tomorrow.
6 July 2016 at 00:54 #53111@lisa Oh, this is getting beyond ridiculous. Professor Dougan is not an ‘EU lawyer’; he is an academic, Professor of European Law at Liverpool university, who happens to be one of the foremost authorities on EU law in the country. And, in case you were unaware of this fact, the title Professor in the UK means that he is head of his Department.
6 July 2016 at 01:34 #53112Thanks @mudlark , you’ve beat me to it.
Except that the “Professor” doesn’t make him the head of his department, but the “Dean”. But I’m sure that was just a typo caused by exhaustion and bewilderment. I know how you feel. 🙂
6 July 2016 at 01:39 #53113LISA!!!
For heaven’s sake, I asked you questions!!!!!! I know the stuff you ‘was’ saying -I understood that 2 weeks ago. But the questions I asked specifically you didn’t answer. Did you look at the specific things I stated?
Right?
“They will get to the finish line and be much better off when they arrive there.”
What is this finish line of which you speak? The coroner? 🙂
Don’t. Cut. And. Paste. Bad. Articles. They. Are. Wrong.
I made it clear that “no, there are very few trade deals with member states, individually” and you said “they already have trade deals with individual member states.”
No. They. Don’t.
There’ll be at least 77 separate deals. I counted them up. One country + another + another +another =all the way to at least 77.
I am learning this stuff -fast. It’s important.
Yes, you’re right. The UK in some cases is putting out more than it receives -at times. That’s how all treaties work. It means that, later, they’ll be benefitted.
Except, haaaaang on…they already do benefit.
Well, they benefitted. People complaining simply did not read or understand the situation and felt that their electorate reps weren’t listening.
Dredging =/ does not equal an EU problem. Debbie from Derby was wrong. It was and is a local issue. I have read the Waterboard info. I read the source -not the source which is written up by the right-wing press and then editorialised. I read the actual source.
Please, Lisa, please do that too.
I hope all went well for the 4th July excitement. We used to celebrate the Queen’s Birthday and have an actual public holiday for that but not this year -and I can’t remember why! Probably because businesses lost too much $.
Kindest,
PuroSolo
6 July 2016 at 01:52 #53114Hehe, language fail.
“You beat me to it” was what I wanted to say. 😀
6 July 2016 at 02:19 #53115@puroandson
I know but I didn’t get thru that vid. I’ve had so much stuff sent to me in the past few days
that all I’ve done is skim thru it. 🙁 I have lots of reading and vids to catch up on but I promise
get to it. All I’ve done is basically watch a few minutes of some of the videos in my mail. Although I
have to go out tonight to a dinner commitment. Over the weekend however I watched a Irish political
discussion vid on the EU and Brexit. I ‘ll share that with you for now.
The first 5 minutes doesn’t have much discussion.
http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/110247/0/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne
6 July 2016 at 02:23 #53116I’ve read all your posts and the thing you’ve stated the most is this one thing (and correct me if I’m wrong):
The EU is about unelected officials and that the UK is obliged to slavishly follow these so-called corporate fellows.
But Dougan (and the five other lecturers of whom I’ve read Opinions) state clearly that Britain still has sovereignty . To understand this is to understand the workings of parliament and this in one thing together with History (big H) I have an MA in (constitutional government and parliamentary democracy is a small part of that in my case). The largest legislative ‘event’ occurring in and around the UK is the sovereignty of parliament -its legislative element has primacy. See?
Now, the UK has lots to ‘say’ about its Constitution -this is one country with ‘conventional power’ very different to the US or Aus, for example.
A new relationship with the EU will now have to be created.
A single market made sense and regulatory barriers was the most important issue within this to be discussed. In other words individual legislation makes it dead clear that regulation is still necessary -unless you’re in the EU where you can avoid the minutiae in and around regulation barriers to some degree and that’s necessary otherwise every tiny part of a television console or a smart phone won’t be permitted market ‘space’ as it won’t ‘fit’ the regulatory laws as per parliamentary or legislative laws. In 23 months that’s where the UK will be -per the divorce agreement.
The next issue you discuss is ‘let England create individual treaties like Norway -that’ll be easy and will be next.’
Except it isn’t easy -in fact it’s not something that the trade environment will welcome. It’s an enormous animal -remember that fantastic cartoon during WW1 where the octopus of Turkey, Italy and Germany spread all over Northern Europe and even down to the States and Australia? I imagine this as the animal created by the UK in order to make specific treaties with every single country. Without treaties and regulation, the UK can’t survive. Additionally, any previous trade agreements have occurred because of the EU in the first place. So, you can’t say “there’ll be loads of other trade agreements to be made”. Why? Because these were built because of the EU anyway: it gave other countries the confidence to make individual treaties as they were negotiated and delivered as per the EU negotiations to some extent. This is one of the main arguments you have made thus far.
Lastly, the UK doesn’t have any bargaining power -it’s too small. Other countries could say, not so much “get lost UK” but “let’s make a deal as we’ll be the winners.” In other words, any deals you mention won’t favour the UK -at all.
6 July 2016 at 02:28 #53117Ah, yes, sorry: I forget people have lives of dinners, activities etc whilst I generally don’t. 🙂
Although I did see a film yesterday! (yay, I was out -it was a silly movie though but by a QLD-er part-timer -I know he lives in LA mostly but loves coming home to this very area for relaxation time)
Thank you for the link -I appreciate that.
@mudlark thank you for the discussion about ecology. This is Flannery’s argument also. A believer in economic security and trade negotiations together with a fundamental knowledge of a) how people often mix up ‘who to blame’ with climactic changes and b) soil and water movements -referred to by me as rural wetland and dryland ‘geometry’ 😈
I’m glad you headed out of the house and are feeling a little better. Certainly the anaesthesia didn’t affect your powers of observation or language tools!
@xad4 Son was asking me about you -he explained that you “weren’t around” during the time we, the hybrid, became a ‘member’ -changing from purofilion to puroandson. Naturally, I explained that people here have many commitments and lives of terrific movement. His response: “Not like you then Mum.”
I was ready to smack him for that 🙂 -except I don’t and Son has instructed me not to discuss this further as three weeks ago another member instigated a discussion about “political correctness” involving “smacking or not smacking” and I learned that some Australians still enjoy whacking their kids! My mother did indeed wack me even when I was 27 and I, having gained some ‘balls’ wacked her back. I was elated! 🙂
Kindest,
Puro and Son
6 July 2016 at 04:23 #53120@lisa (and others)
I think he may have been a tad disingenuous
I think ‘disingenuous’ is an interesting word to use in the wider context of this debate.
For example, your Oncologist friend, who is complaining that the EU limits her working hours, may be being a little bit disingenuous in her presentation of the issue. Because I know it to be a fact that she, along with her entire noble profession, has the ability to opt out of the EU Working Time Directive that limits her time to 48hours per week.
If you disbelieve me then consider the guidance issued by the British Medical Association (BMA), your friends Professional body that actually have the power to strip someone of their Medical Practice certification.
It is not possible to opt out of the rest requirements, so doctors will still need to ensure they take the necessary breaks, and their employer will still need to monitor the hours they work. The opt out provision is available to all doctors, however the CC strongly recommends that doctors do not opt out of the collective agreement and are afforded full protection under this health and safety legislation. If you do opt out, make sure you get paid the appropriate number of PAs.
So you can opt out and work more hours as long as you acknowledge the breaks suggested. That’s pretty fair isn’t it? Would you feel comfortable with primary care delivered by a health professional who was obliged to remain on call for 36 continuous hours? That was the situation before these hard won rights were delivered by the EU. Tiredness and stress are big killers, as the health profession continually remind us. It’s probably for that reason, whenever this issue comes up at BMA conferences, Medical practitioners vote overwhelmingly to support them these days. And that the Consultants Committee (CC) advise people like your friend not to take that route. It remains her right to disagree with the consensus. And opt out.
The video you posted is highly disingenuous, having been funded by the backers of UKIP. I smiled at the sight of some old ‘friends’ that have since left the building. Don’t you find it odd that videos produced in the 2000s rely so much on video and issues from the 1970s? Seriously, to put this into context, in the horrible event of a Trump victory, it would be like saying to a Democrate “naaah mate. Don’t worry. It’ll be alright! Just look at this!!”. And then post a Youtube link to one of Trumps speeches.
Finally, the dredging question. I’ve said on many occasions that I am an environmental consultant. It’s what I’ve done for the best part of twenty years. My original discipline was Chemistry to degree level. My MSc is in Environmental Science. I’ve conducted flood risk assessments (site specific, so some supported, some refused), developed mitigation methods and flood defences, investigated flood events in four countries, provided expert witness testimony in Civil and Crown Courts, and contributed to numerous research projects for insurers and regulatory bodies such as the Environment Agency and Scottish Environmental Protection Agency. This is my turf.
My considered opinion on the question of dredging is that it is offensively simplistic to allocate any blame on mass flooding events to a lack of dredging. It’s a simple sound bite for simplistic politicians to be spoon-fed by aligned media to a credulous audience who cannot, or will not, face the true ramifications of global warming coupled with our failure to adequately plan development on River catchment areas.
Any housing, industrial or retail development (with roofed or paved areas) that we add to the mix simply collects water. A lot of it. Whereas before it would percolate slowly downwards through soil to join the aquifer and flow underground to the nearest water body, we efficiently collect it, and send it at high velocity directly towards the nearest surface water. Couple that with changing climate that tends towards short but devastating periodic volumes and you have a disaster. Home government places a low priority on the EU led call for Sustainable Urban Drainage Systems (SUDS) which stop this type of thing (the UK MEPs watered (ho-ho) down the original Directive which would have made SUDS in development a priority). Apparently it was down to us retaining our Sovereignty. Or something.
In over 40 major flooding events I have studied (including two big ones in Carlisle) the damage that could have been prevented by dredging amounts to a fraction of 1%. It is perverse to blame this on the EU when there is no prohibition on the dredging of Rivers AND the UK regularly dips into the EUs emergency budget when it looks like they, and insurers, are going to fail to deliver effective remediation.
On our beloved Sovereignty. I’m led to believe by Politicians with their tongues firmly in their cheeks that this is what they campaigned upon, and not demonising foreigners.
I thought our Sovereignty was pretty much intact to be honest. We and France insist on maintaining a ruinous nuclear deterrent no matter how many of the other EU members laugh at us. We maintained the right to join an ill thought out Invasion of Iraq in spite of our European partners having some serious concerns. We’ve been allowed to implement policies and foster a system where social mobility becomes less likely, and conduct periodic fire sales of our assets to multinationals while more sensible European Partners jealously hang on to theirs.
But no – we’ve truly taken back control, my friends. I have a dream! We will finally have our freedom. Our freedom to be potentially misdiagnosed or mistreated by a junior Doctor Who hasn’t had much sleep in the last week. And blame them. Our freedom to, once again, become the dirty man of Europe. We can let our children paddle in shit infested coastal waters (never did us any harm), breath freely on airborne pollutants (put hairs on your chest) and roll back the many social and environmental benefits we’ve taken for granted! Let us march proudly backwards to the 1970s!
Funny how some dreams turn so rapidly to nightmares, isn’t it?
6 July 2016 at 07:42 #53121I don’t know how accurate this is, just recieved it.
Just for info for those who were wondering what it was all about
Just in from an expatriate Brit!
Read it and weep!
A short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU…Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers’ pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.
The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn’t paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK.
We used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don’t even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven’t detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don’t even go there.
I haven’t mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that’s gone the other way, I’ve looked and I just can’t.
Still want to stay? Well it must be some consolation that you have Cameron to negotiate in Europe on your behalf.
And of course, the real deal-breaker …. Democracy, transparency and independence. We can vote out our MPs – BUT the European Commission who dictate 55% of UK laws, which are legally binding, are ….. guess what, untouchable, unelected and hidden from view.
Missy
6 July 2016 at 08:40 #53122@mudlark @all
Sorry, I’ve messed it up again.
I’m aware that the Dean is of course the head of the faculty, not the department.
Not that it matters a lot, but it’s definitely taught me never to post again when my brain is already in bedtime mode. 😀
6 July 2016 at 10:18 #53123Mr @phaseshift
I was learning that we Australians have experienced the indignation of many other peoples concerned by our “friendship with those in high places.” Mum has a book written about the closeness of Australians with Americans during and after World War Two. The teachers speak about how some Americans refer to Iraq as the war “which had to happen” and call it: Eye-wrack . We learnt about sovereignty last term and the teacher who is very cool and an older guy said: “let’s raise a glass (to English sovereignty). Don’t make me laugh.” 🙁 Most of the kids didn’t get it. I don’t think they cover a lot of these issues in the standard newspapers here. I think its not in their interest to spread this information around. As mum and dad say “always check where the source comes from and where that source comes from too.” Its hard work to do that but its necessary.
Mum said I could highlight this part of what you wrote. So I am -because its really good.
“…I thought our Sovereignty was pretty much intact to be honest. We and France insist on maintaining a ruinous nuclear deterrent no matter how many of the other EU members laugh at us. We maintained the right to join an ill thought out Invasion of Iraq…. and conduct periodic fire sales of our assets to multinationals ….But….we will finally have our freedom….to be potentially misdiagnosed or mistreated by a junior Doctor Who hasn’t had much sleep in the last week. And blame them. Our freedom to, once again, become the dirty man of Europe. We can let our children paddle in shit infested coastal waters (never did us any harm)….”
Well said ! I had to look up “ruinous” (I should have worked that out by myself) and fire sales -I learnt that now.
Son of Puro
6 July 2016 at 10:35 #53124I’ve joined so hello everyone 😀
6 July 2016 at 10:57 #53126This is what most of us have been arguing against I suppose.
“BUT the European Commission who dictate 55% of UK laws, which are legally binding, are …”
Again, the UK has its own laws. Some of this is SO right wing Pauline Hanson would be begging to be hung! I don’t where you found this stuff! 🙂
“I haven’t detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food”
Oh I don’t know whether to laugh or cry: one cannot have a non existent fishing industry and then destroy it. One cannot have farmers not producing food! Was this writer on mushrooms? E? M? Ph? Phy? Any alphabet soup of any kind?
British technology isn’t the same as, say, Japanese technology. For instance, look at our own Australian technology. We could say, like the article above, “we don’t have any.” And yet our diversity lies in our agricultural exports.
Now, what people have argued about -and correctly, is that the UK is a service based economy. So, the EU, based on that knowledge has helped the UK -not let it down. By leaving the EU, the UK will now be in shambles.
The immigration argument which you pasted in is basically again the right wing fear mongers who believe Britain should be for the British -whatever that means.
I remember a story of a young man in Australia in 1949 being spat on and told “Australia for Australians.” That guy was my dad and he was Czech. He’d escaped and eventually built five homes and introduced air conditioning technology to this country no-one else had invented. He was Carrier air conditioning. I don’t favour arguments where people say “oh, I’m not against immigration I’m just against it here because these people steal our jobs.”
And that’s the wrong argument. It’s never made sense economically but it’s a fantastic argument to use when a right wing party wants to whip up hatred and create frenzy -it was those sorts of poorly sourced internet articles -along with frenetic journalism that helped a Brexit victory. But as @bluesqueakpip stated it’s over and people are just arguing over the funeral. And if this is the colour of revolution then it would be good for us as a country to systematically understand what happened in the UK: to see how people react in the midst of this.
Lastly, it might be a good idea or us to re-read that article you pasted from -as it refers to companies which allegedly have been stripped of their “success” due to EU grants. But what about industries which have been successful because of the EU?
Anyway, it’s all in the past. Ironically not one of those ‘events’ will change because of Brexit.
Darn it, eh?
Puro and Son
6 July 2016 at 11:16 #53127@1997whovian don’t mind us! 🙂 This isn’t the House for the EU (though, by and large, arguments about- and for the EU- were very convincing and as a Australian I’m …blabla -here I go again!!) so welcome to you. I hope you enjoy our actual discussions about the Doctor. I’ve loved this site for over two years. It’s a wonderful place to come and share our love of The Moffinator, River Song, Peter Capaldi, Angela Merkel. Oops. Not her.
Have you enjoyed Peter’s last couple of seasons? I really loved The Husbands of River Song -a fantastical romp reminding me of certain comedy shows in the 1950s. It’s going to be a long wait.
Kindest and welcome once again,
Puro and Son (we are the hybrid)
6 July 2016 at 11:30 #53128Shame on you @missy posting such things. Both Poland and Slovakia are not in the slighest less worthy countries than the Great Britain is. And Britons are not better than Poles or Slovaks. EU exists to serves all european countries and not only privileged Britons. Great Britain has more privileges than such countries as Poland and Slovakia but it seems that you have became too spoiled.
6 July 2016 at 11:36 #53129@missy–
That thing you posted is, I’m afraid, the most terrible piece of Brexiteer bollocks — of the kind that was getting cut and pasted into newspaper forums on an hourly basis (not to mention clogging up the inboxes of news editors up and down the country in the run-up to the referendum). Almost all the capital and investment flight it mentions is sod all to do with the EU and everything to do with UK industrial and taxation policy. That it happened while the UK was within the EU is neither here nor there. Correlation is not causation.
However, this whopper:
BUT the European Commission who dictate 55% of UK laws
has been bandied about so much that the House of Commons Library had to write a report on it. The true answer is a ‘how long is a piece of string’ type thing, depending on how much cherry-picking of the facts you want to do. But there’s the top line:
The study said 13.2% of all laws made in the UK between 1993 and 2014 have been EU-related.
Now, on top of that, the UK does have to enact legislation made solely in the EU — much of which contains vetoes and opt-outs — and much of which involves pesky things like maximum working weeks, statutory holiday pay for freelance and casual workers (yay!) and all those things that Tory-voting employers would much rather not have to do.
But the idea that the UK has lost anything like its legislative sovereignty is and always has been utter pish.
Frankly, all this ‘you can make Britain Great again’ (the Great, incidentally referred to geography — roughly Greater Brittany, as opposed to Lesser Brittany on the coast of what is now France. It’s got sod all to do with ‘greatness’ or any other puke-inducing concepts of jingoistic superiority). But it’s the emptiest kind of rhetoric, not unlike a father trying to comfort his jilted daughter with ‘a beautiful girl like can only have a brilliant future, there are plenty more fish in the sea’ type platitudes. If they’re both living in a one-horse mining town in No Hope Gulch then realistically it ain’t going to happen.
And with the pound plummeting, stocks in freefall and the prospect of future capital flight that makes anything that happened in the past 20-odd years look like a walk in the park, it’s going to take a lot more than that for Britain to be anything other than an economic basket-case. My one (thankfully increasingly likely) hope is that Scotland will vote for independence and extricate itself from the whole sorry mess….
6 July 2016 at 12:07 #53133Agreed – a dreadful piece of writing. But I think Missy stated she hadn’t had time to read it yet. Perhaps, Missy, it landed in your in-box some while ago pre-vote?
Puro and Son
6 July 2016 at 18:07 #53134@mudlark
“I did it! I walked into the city and back, a round trip of just over two miles, towing a laden wheeled shopping bag on the way back. I tucked a folding walking stick into the bag in case of need, but it wasn’t required, My legs felt very slightly unsteady to begin with but … freedom, and no pain :-)”That’s GREAT! I am SO glad to hear your good news! 🙂
7 July 2016 at 01:26 #53135And with the pound plummeting, stocks in freefall and the prospect of future capital flight that makes anything that happened in the past 20-odd years look like a walk in the park, it’s going to take a lot more than that for Britain to be anything other than an economic basket-case.
I’ve been saying throughout this Referendum – never make long-term decisions on the basis of short term effects. It was so bloody obvious that the economy was going to tank in the immediate aftermath of Brexit that I heard Leavers quietly admitting that the next few years would be rough if they succeeded. But, as I keep saying – economies don’t matter to people in a revolution. They just want to bring the government (whichever government) down.
As for the markets they, more than anything, loathe uncertainty. However, once the dust has settled, they won’t care whether we’re in the EU or not – as long as we have a stable government, a population that isn’t on the brink of rebellion and the ability to export something to somebody.
Unfortunately, as I keep joking, Plan A involved the Prime Minister not resigning and Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition not trying to re-enact the assassination scene from Julius Caesar. 🙂
I will here pause to salute Mark Carney for seemingly being the only person in the entire British Establishment to Have A Post-Brexit Plan. This is undoubtedly because he’s a Canadian who never went to a British public school. 😈
Many thanks, Canada.
7 July 2016 at 03:35 #53136@bluesqueakpip You are welcome. Canada’s loss is Englands gain. Lets hope he helps with this mess that is Brexit.
7 July 2016 at 03:38 #53137And Britons are not better than Poles or Slovaks. EU exists to serves all European countries and not only privileged Britons…
Indeed: I think the Slovaks (from memory) are doing better -this because they don’t have the figures to substantiate the euro. They still use the Crown (krona) as the CZR did until their economy turned around sufficiently to be in the euro zone -funnily enough they have huge problems now. Their government is wholly unable to legitimately negotiate with corporations. Whilst Vaclav Havel was a brilliant philosophical prime minister a poet doesn’t a minister make 🙂
Still, he was well loved.
Back to Slovakia: its Tatra Mountains are doing very well indeed as a tourist destination for skiers intent on spending less than they would in Austria and Switzerland and therefore spending three weeks longer -and thus spending the same $ they would have in Western Europe. It’s interesting to see the changes wrought in Slovakia and Romania recently.
@bluesqueakpip a question I have is what does the UK export? Based on its service economy and the knowledge I’ve gleaned from the Doctor Who Forum
and the EU handbook of sensethat is one area of hard facts I don’t have: I guess I could ‘google it’ but as anybody adds ‘information’ to Wikipedia articles it’s positively the last thing I need right now. 🙂@jimthefish “all this ‘you can make Britain Great again’ [has]… got sod all to do with ‘greatness’ or any other puke-inducing concepts of jingoistic superiority.”
Hear hear: we had tons of this shit during our own recent election: three years ago it was Tony Abbott saying “stop the big banks, the big new taxes and stop the big boats” mixed up with comments about “Julia Gillard the witch bitch” (such vile inflammatory, sexist garbage) whilst Turnbull reverted to form: “Australians for Australia.” People love that statement.
Studies by neuroscientists have shown that people who describe themselves as politically committed and listen to political statements respond only with the emotional, limbic part of the brain. The area of the neo-cortex where reasoning occurs remains quiet. (1)
The debate pre-vote in the UK and most certainly in Australia three years ago (it wasn’t as bad this election due to a comparatively long campaign) relied on reflexive demagoguery and attacked the working class and middle classes -seen as latte sipping university academics when the only people sitting about in coffee shops wasting away their hours were the wives of corporate businessmen guilelessly describing their husband’s latest
tortsrorts and how income was moved into the dependent spouse’s off-shore account.And they say Australia’s a classless society.
My ass!
There exist those people who believe that the Referendum in the UK can be wound back (this is wholly the correct place for this debate as some voters would love a/re-vote or even a time machine; :cough:).
Problem is, as I see it, it was a democratically binding decision: I may personally dislike Referenda but I’d have to claim that the people in the UK had sufficient time to learn their notes (Cliff notes perhaps) before voting. Trying to change that now would be importunate as you never get a second change to make a first impression. And that impression seemed to be more about “getting rid of the government which isn’t listening” than about the failures of the EU to deliver. From all the way over here in Aus, I thought that those in the Leave campaign were manipulating facts to fit their hypotheses. No-one started with what they knew giving the truth a chance to emerge. Forgoing conclusions to satisfy ego is the wrong way to start a campaign: I fear these are how campaigns are won these days (ego rather than that one square foot in each individual’s brain) – editorialising oligarchies filling up the brains of the witless, the neophytes and the platitudinous.
Still, I’m turning into a fanatic about this and it’s time to stop: a fanatic being one who can’t change their mind or the subject.
What’s for dinner? 🙂
(1) Thomas Schlamme
Kindest, Puro and Son
7 July 2016 at 03:38 #53138And Britons are not better than Poles or Slovaks. EU exists to serves all European countries and not only privileged Britons…
Indeed: I think the Slovaks (from memory) are doing better -this because they don’t have the figures to substantiate the euro. They still use the Crown (krona) as the CZR did until their economy turned around sufficiently to be in the euro zone -funnily enough they have huge problems now. Their government is wholly unable to legitimately negotiate with corporations. Whilst Vaclav Havel was a brilliant philosophical prime minister a poet doesn’t a minister make 🙂
Still, he was well loved.
Back to Slovakia: its Tatra Mountains are doing very well indeed as a tourist destination for skiers intent on spending less than they would in Austria and Switzerland and therefore spending three weeks longer -and thus spending the same $ they would have in Western Europe. It’s interesting to see the changes wrought in Slovakia and Romania recently.
@bluesqueakpip a question I have is what does the UK export? Based on its service economy and the knowledge I’ve gleaned from the Doctor Who Forum
and the EU handbook of sensethat is one area of hard facts I don’t have: I guess I could ‘google it’ but as anybody adds ‘information’ to Wikipedia articles it’s positively the last thing I need right now. 🙂@jimthefish “all this ‘you can make Britain Great again’ [has]… got sod all to do with ‘greatness’ or any other puke-inducing concepts of jingoistic superiority.”
Hear hear: we had tons of this shit during our own recent election: three years ago it was Tony Abbott saying “stop the big banks, the big new taxes and stop the big boats” mixed up with comments about “Julia Gillard the witch bitch” (such vile inflammatory, sexist garbage) whilst Turnbull reverted to form: “Australians for Australia.” People love that statement.
Studies by neuroscientists have shown that people who describe themselves as politically committed and listen to political statements respond only with the emotional, limbic part of the brain. The area of the neo-cortex where reasoning occurs remains quiet. (1)
The debate pre-vote in the UK and most certainly in Australia three years ago (it wasn’t as bad this election due to a comparatively long campaign) relied on reflexive demagoguery and attacked the working class and middle classes -seen as latte sipping university academics when the only people sitting about in coffee shops wasting away their hours were the wives of corporate businessmen guilelessly describing their husband’s latest
tortsrorts and how income was moved into the dependent spouse’s off-shore account.And they say Australia’s a classless society.
My ass!
There exist those people who believe that the Referendum in the UK can be wound back (this is wholly the correct place for this debate as some voters would love a/re-vote or even a time machine; :cough:).
Problem is, as I see it, it was a democratically binding decision: I may personally dislike Referenda but I’d have to claim that the people in the UK had sufficient time to learn their notes (Cliff notes perhaps) before voting. Trying to change that now would be importunate as you never get a second change to make a first impression. And that impression seemed to be more about “getting rid of the government which isn’t listening” than about the failures of the EU to deliver. From all the way over here in Aus, I thought that those in the Leave campaign were manipulating facts to fit their hypotheses. No-one started with what they knew giving the truth a chance to emerge. Forgoing conclusions to satisfy ego is the wrong way to start a campaign: I fear these are how campaigns are won these days (ego rather than that one square foot in each individual’s brain) – editorialising oligarchies filling up the brains of the witless, the neophytes and the platitudinous.
Still, I’m turning into a fanatic about this and it’s time to stop: a fanatic being one who can’t change their mind or the subject.
What’s for dinner? 🙂
(1) Thomas Schlamme
Kindest, Puro and Son
7 July 2016 at 03:40 #53139@1997whovian Hi! Welcome to the site. I hope you have as much fun exploring all there is here and that it helps to fill that void until Doctor Who finally returns.
7 July 2016 at 03:41 #53140Mr mods! I broke the internet. Or Mum loved what she’s saying that she said it twice.
Bummer. If I try to ‘edit’ it -I edit both and both disappear.
Gfffgh.
Apologies to all.
Puro’s Son (don’t get mad, mum -it’s the laptop. We need a new one now)
7 July 2016 at 03:55 #53142@puroandson Not to worry you didn’t break my internet, it seems to be working fine. As far as needing a new laptop, I feel your pain and the pain in the pocketbook. My P.C. (thats right I said PC) is pretty old and needs replacing but ……..well someday.
7 July 2016 at 04:05 #53143@winston
“@1997whovian Hi! Welcome to the site. I hope you have as much fun exploring all there is here and that it helps to fill that void until Doctor Who finally returns.”Ditto! 🙂
7 July 2016 at 08:53 #53144so to our own election held on July 2nd…
7 July 2016 at 09:02 #53145so the problem remains (wish it really was -ho hum) that the Australian Electoral Commission seeks to exclude 6 seats which are going to be won by one of the major parties. It is best to view the ABC’s guide to election results rather than the AECs. It may still be a hung parliament on the basis of those seat wins -see above.
Either way, it hasn’t been called yet due to the large number of double counts, postals, lates and that the six seats must be scrutinised heartily
7 July 2016 at 10:01 #53146@puroandson Yes i have enjoyed Peter’s latest season and i loved the Husbands of River song.
7 July 2016 at 10:03 #53147@winston @stitchintime Thanks and i will 😀
7 July 2016 at 10:07 #53149@mersey There is an old saying: “Don’t shoot the messenger” A friend sent it to a friend, who sent it to me, and I did say that I wasn’t sure of its accuracy.
@jimthefish: Likewise.
@puroandson: Nope, I got it yesterday. The Oz election isn’t going too well either it seems.
Missy
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7 July 2016 at 10:13 #53151 -
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