Army of Ghosts / Doomsday
17 May 2014 at 16:52 #27557Craig @craigEmperor
And so we (sort of) say farewell to Rose Tyler. Ghostly beings have been appearing across the world and people, believing them to be their dead loved ones, are welcoming their visits with open arms. But monstrous foes return as two universes collide…18 May 2014 at 17:14 #27607PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
So – goodbye to both Series 2 and Rose (for now). An odd series 2, in that it had some massive highs (Impossible Planet, Girl in the Fireplace) and some of (for me) the most misjudged episodes (Love and Monsters, Fear Her).
As finales go though I think this is what was needed for the series. Army of Ghosts sets up the story well and the entry point of Rose’s narration casts a shadow over what could have been seen as a light episode. I like the scene with Camille Coduri talking about her father. After disliking Jackie at the start of series 1, I think she grew on me and Camille conveys a particular vulnerability to Jackie. Over at Torchwood it’s Freema! And Tracy Ann Oberman who is obviously delighting in vamping it up as Yvonne Hartman. She brings a smug assurance to Hartman that just makes you hate her automatically.
The revelation that the Ghosts are Cybermen seemed a little bit obvious (I’m not watching Fear Her without cause, but weren’t they even featured in the “next time” segment in that?) but we were really expecting them after the Cybermen two-parter weren’t we? The Doctor passing Jackie of as Rose always makes me laugh, and the guided tour around Torchwood is entertaining. We have the mystery of the Void Ship to consider. Hey – that’s Mickey! His brief speculation about a King of the Cybermen brings back unpleasant thoughts about big stompy robot.
I must compliment them on the reveal at the end. Given the Daleks presence at the end of Series 1 had been massively leaked in the press, they made a great effort of secrecy in series 2, and that was a wonderful bit of rug-pulling. A marvellous cliff-hanger.
Onto Doomsday, and we are really stepping up a gear. Dalek Sec had the potential to be the first Dalek Standup comedian. “My Dalek mutant has no nose”. “How does he smell?” “Repulsive.”
So four Daleks against the 5 million cybermen and humanity and they are laughing. I think on one level this was a problem with how the Daleks were presented. They were really too powerful. I prefer Daleks with some weaknesses, where a bunch of primitives could take one out with a rock (Death to the Daleks) or they could disable one by shoving it into an ice pond (Planet of the Daleks). I love the concept of the Genesis Arc being a Time Lord prison. It’s a natural extension of the dimensional technology and was a great idea. The bitch-slapping session is quite entertaining, but because it’s so one sided I think it lacks something.
The sudden meeting of Jackie and alt-Pete is really good stuff. RTDs just a romantic at heart. Suddenly we’re on the home straight. The Doctor is the man with the plan and Rose is there with him to the bitter end. Off the Daleks and Cyberman go to the void. Hope they didn’t end up in the Land of Fiction. Genuinely tense scene with Rose flying towards the void before being intercepted by Pete. Alt-Dad to the rescue! I love the Doomsday bit of music as the Doctor and Rose face of against the wall of realities that separate them. The following scene at Bad Wolf bay I thought was moving when I first watched it, and while it still has power, I think it’s undermined by the knowledge that we’ll see Rose again. Burning up a star to send her a message? Told you – pure Romantic. Great playing by Tennant and Piper.
And suddenly – holy crap. It’s Catherine Tate. Is it Christmas again next week? 😀18 May 2014 at 17:30 #27608wolfweed @wolfweed
Watch on Youtube for the Tardisode 13 link.
Well AOG is one big tease.
I love the ghost forecast, the Trisha ghost relationship (“He’s my ghost and I love him 24/7!”) and the Queen Vic ghost.
Was Scooby Doo ever in Ghostbusters?
Jackie as Rose has a dodgy ankle – Hilarious!
I’m surprised The British Empire hasn’t happened yet, considering our hardware (It’s probably thanks to Harriet Jones)…
There seems to be a lot of office ‘romance’ going on.
“I think he makes half of it up.”
Nice psychological tactics, Dr (Stop the shift!).
Onto Doomsday. I think these aliens should have had a Hip-Hop battle. So bitchy!
Nice to see the steampunkish fascist alt Universe again (very Inferno).
The Fall of Arcadia gets a mention.
Why can’t the Cult touch?
Jackie – “There was never anyone else.”
Ready Brek shielding – Very cool!
Was Yvonne so programmed that she was unreprogrammable?
If this were the Crystal Maze you’d’ve won, coz you’ve got all gold tokens and no silver collected (a weird production error).
How did Pete know where to teleport?
So we never did get that Rose Tyler Defender Of The Earth spin-off. RTD OTE…
Complete this sentence: “Rose Tyler,…”18 May 2014 at 18:52 #27613The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman
I wish that when a character states at the beginning of a story that they are going to die, they would actually die, particularly if they’re just going to be brought back in the most stupid way possible.
The whole Daleks vs Cybermen battle is awesome, until you realise it’s the parallel earth Cybermen and you get really angry, yelling at the screen “what were they thinking?”
Also has anyone noticed that the Doctor and Rose have been acting really obnoxious the past few episodes? he does get a bit p***ed off at her towards the end of Doomsday for this but that just shows how inconsistent the 10th Doctor is written. Why are they supposed to be in love any way. I don’t have a problem with him having romantic feelings for a companion but shouldn’t it be someone he’s got more in common with than Rose? you know, someone like Romana or Liz Shaw. Not that he shouldn’t care for her or see her as a friend, but I don’t think he should be in love with her.5 June 2014 at 21:59 #28031
Still to this day, i think about this episode. Probably because i feel like series two was my favorite out of David Tennant’s reign. It was a bittersweet, melancholic end to my first doctor/companion team. A fine ending for such a great journey. I wonder as I write this what everyone else would think in comparing Army of Ghosts/Doomsday with The Angels Take Manhattan. It seems to be a habit with me to compare 10 and 11’s similar experinces.6 June 2014 at 23:02 #28044PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
Probably because i feel like series two was my favorite out of David Tennant’s reign. It was a bittersweet, melancholic end to my first doctor/companion team. A fine ending for such a great journey. I wonder as I write this what everyone else would think in comparing Army of Ghosts/Doomsday with The Angels Take Manhattan. It seems to be a habit with me to compare 10 and 11′s similar experinces.
I don’t, necessarily, feel the need to compare them.
For me it’s evolution of storytelling. Could you tell the same story twice?
This is powerful, but – Rose cast a long shadow over the next two series and specials. Rejection of Martha in series 3. Anticipation of return in Series 4. The “surprise end” of the specials. I think that extended experience undermined the power of this story.
In comparison, Angels take Manhattan is practically a Guillotine, severing 11 from his admiring audience, provoking a sulk, forcing him back into a state of being for 7B. It’s a different approach to the same story, with a small cameo at the end of TotD from Amy/Ameila to explain the latest character of the Doctor. I prefer the Moffat version, but the RTD one was served first, and is still tasty. In a McDonald’s Breakfast sort of way.;-)
For me, whatever the faults, the best of RTD is to come in Series 3 and 4. Episodes like Smith and Jones, Gridlock, Utopia, Partners in Crime, Midnight, Turn Left, etc….7 June 2014 at 00:17 #28049
I see what you mean though, rose’s return overshadowed Martha and Donna for me, and it kind of put a mood of, ” I wonder when rose is coming back” to all of series 3 and 4. The surprise ending didn’t really seem worth it. As for the end of Amy and Rory, it was what it was… beautiful but full of sorrow at the same time. I think that kind of story that Moffet was telling vs. Davies showed a much more unforgiving dark side to The Doctor. Where 10 had to choose to never see any of his companions again, he still knew that they lived on. 11 got to see his most precious connection to humanity get ripped away right in front of his eyes.
I personally get stuck comparing 10 and 11 because 10 was my first doctor (I’m still young), but my personality matches 11 much more than 10. To this day I still can’t tell you which one i enjoyed more. The answer to that question changes each day i wake up.
Thank you @phaseshift for replying by the way, you helped me put it into a perspective that i hadn’t seen yet. 🙂7 June 2014 at 05:09 #28052janetteB @janetteb
@jacobrjmorrison I often think the best Doctor is the one you happen to be watching at the moment. (With the notable exception of poor Colin Baker of course.) I think Tennant’s Doctor was often hampered by poor scripts, but when he shone, as in Blink, he really shone. Tempting though it is to compare two actors playing the same role I think it best to appreciate each for his individual merits and both Tennant and Smith had those in abundance.
Janette7 June 2014 at 05:46 #28053
“I often think the best doctor is the one you happen to be watching at the moment” I want to quote you on that. I’ve never been able to capture the ambivalent feeling that you get when someone asks which doctor is your favorite. I’ve gone and watched as many doctors from the classic and the 96′ movie with the 8th doctor. The more i see of the earlier incarnations, the harder that question gets to answer.
You definitely have a point about tom baker though, he really is one of a kind.7 June 2014 at 09:03 #28056janetteB @janetteb
@jacobrjmorrison Actually it was Colin Baker not Tom I mentioned but you are right. Tom was “one of a kind” and is always a favourite. (Rather unfortunate that the best and worst shared the same surname.)
Janette7 June 2014 at 18:52 #28116
Ahhh, Colin Baker I still haven’t watched. I’ve read different things about 6. Mostly bad.18 June 2014 at 01:07 #28328BothHeartsShattered @bothheartsshattered
The feels… This would be why my custom text is “Get Ready for a Feel Trip”.
I actually had read up ahead of time, so I knew exactly what was going to happen at the end. I even looked it up on Youtube and watched the ending. Now, mind you, I don’t usually cry at sad endings, but I came pretty close to losing it the first time.
Today I watched both full episodes for he first time with my brothers. I told myself, “I’m not going to cry. I’m not going to cry. I’m not going to… GAH! Right in the feels!”
Yes, I cried. I didn’t want to, but I did. My brothers noticed, but they were gentle about it (for once).
Goodbye, Rose… I can’t wait to see you next time. (I know, I’ll be in for another feel trip.)16 January 2015 at 09:29 #37326doctorwho333202 @doctorwho333202
These were great episodes the ending was sad when Rose said “I love you” to the doctor and then he was about to say it to Rose then he diasppered. He said I then started crying it was such sad scene but was funny when Donna appeard in the tardis. I love Catherine Tate she very funny and a great actress.6 March 2015 at 23:07 #38557Anonymous @
Yeah I totally agree with you @doctorwho333202, it’s really sad until Donna appears. I feel as thought she doesn’t completely heal the wounds left by Rose, she definitely helps!15 March 2015 at 23:05 #38844camilazanoni @camilazanoni
I’ve just finished rewatching Army of Ghosts/Doomsday and even though it’s been like a year since I watched this episode for the first time, there is still one little thing that bothers me a bit (well, apart from the fact that Rose is gone and I can’t stand it) and it’s the part in which Pete appears at last minute to save Rose from going into the void. Could someone explain to me how does that make sence? I mean, a lot of things about Doctor Who don’t make sence and I’m perfectly fine with it because that’s the beauty of the show sometimes but is there any explanation to how it happens or should we say that she was just lucky?15 March 2015 at 23:15 #38846Anonymous @
@Camila bear with me as I have not seen it in a long while but Pete had a ‘parallel world travel button’ on his neck -the void itself was retreating and closing off as was the connection between the two parallel worlds – the button he carried, and which he used to grab hold of Rose, had one final trip left in it before the parallel world would be closed off forever from our one. Once used, Pete and Rose would be ‘stuck’ in the parallel world where her mother already was. In other words Rose was saved.
Remember that Rose and the Doctor were attempting to close the void off -each had a hand on one of the ‘gear sticks’ -they almost had it, when Rose was forced off due to the overwhelming power of it. I imagine Pete could see what was happening from the other parallel universe and arrived to rescue her before she would have been doomed to stay in the void space where they had sent both the Daleks and the Cybermen thus freeing this world from those aliens -both of whom have managed to return!15 March 2015 at 23:23 #38848camilazanoni @camilazanoni
@purofilion what I mean is, how does Pete know at that precise moment that Rose needs help? And were exactly he has to stand to catch her?16 March 2015 at 00:07 #38854Anonymous @
yes, exactly. Where to stand. Good point -as I said, I think he may know, by a few more seconds, what’s happening in that parallel dimension. I don’t think it’s explained at all -as the story concentrates on the fact Rose admits to loving him and that he -almost – is able to say that too -before the portal to that dimension is closed off forever. Many people cried that night! Although some thought that an alien romancing Rose (when he’s 1000 years old) was pretty silly. But I cried along with all the rest -it was a rip the heart out moment for sure with many more still to come with Donna and Martha etc but I won’t ‘spoil’ that for you 🙂
It’s all a great series, isn’t it? Each new actor brings something unique to the role of that iconic figure gracing those little B& W telly screens. It’s the first show I remember ever watching other than Lost in Space which was in the 1970s and had a family on a space ship lost from their own solar system with a cynical talking robot (which looked a bit like a Dalek). Loved that show to bits. It was easier to understand than Dr who for me and didn’t have quite the scare and menace of Doctor Who -and yet, that’s why, much older, I came to adore it.
Until the 1980s and then I began to avoid it! Not a fan of Colin Baker -Tom Baker I loved on the other hand.1 April 2015 at 09:08 #39381geoffers @geoffers
@camilazanoni – coincidentally, strangely, i just finished a re-watch of these two episodes. not so strangely, i came here to see what everyone else has said…
my take on how pete knew to rescue rose, is that he was able to see through the breach in the walls of the two universes, as it was collapsing. (we don’t see this from the doctor/rose p.o.v., because the cybermen and daleks being sucked to their deaths block “the viewing window,” so to speak?) so he was able to see that she was in trouble, and was able to calculate where to run to, before using his teleport thingy. which also implies that it was an exquisitely timed (and terribly heroic) feat! almost doctor-ish…
as to why we weren’t shown that they could see through the breach? well, either rtd didn’t think of that, or… maybe he decided that it would give away the surprise rescue?
whatever the “real” reason/explanation, i don’t mind tying up loose ends like this, now and then, if only in my own mind! it’s one of the things, along with this forum, that makes the show a somewhat interactive experience…
🙂6 June 2016 at 22:34 #52654Soufflegirl @soufflegirlanddaleks
The feels that were included in the episodes were enough to make a grown timelord cry. Especially the part where Rose is deciding whether or not to leave the doctor forever or never see her mum ever again. Our hearts were in our mouths when Rose let go of the lever and then a huge sigh of relief went round because of Pete being able to save her.8 June 2016 at 00:56 #52655winston @winston
@soufflegirlanddaleks I just rewatched these episodes on Friday and I feel your pain. So sad to lose Rose to that other world. The scene where they stand next to the barrier in different worlds and still feel the other behind it ,is heart breaking, even on rewatch. The first time I watched this I wasn’t online and here in Canada there were no spoilers so when Rose announced that “this is where I die” I was totally shocked.Later I was surprised but pleased that she doesn’t really die. Still like this episode a lot and love Pete and Jackie.
My favourite part was the fight between Daleks and Cybermen, the trash talking was pretty funny, I giggled a few times.28 June 2016 at 16:50 #52965TheBatGames @thebatgames
I was rewatching the new seasons, (just starting Season 3), and suddenly realised something that, I was probably too emotional at the first time to see, and that is, Rose could’ve stayed with the Doctor, in fact all of them could, this revolves from two points A) TARDIS went through the void but didn’t get sent in, and B) Jackie doesn’t have any Void “Stuff” on her. This is a big plot hole, which I think needs a bit explaining, as I think the Doctor would have thought of this, my theory on how they could stay is: The Doctor sends Pete, Mickey and Rose to the TARDIS, which doesn’t get sucked in, and then he, and Jackie, who didn’t have any void stuff on her, stay to plug up the breach, and when it’s plugged they can get Rose and the others out of the TARDIS, and continue from there.
Just to make it clear, I still like the story, and how it goes on from there, but I would like someone to explain why he never thought of this, or give some ideas.4 July 2020 at 18:45 #70807CornealiaRiggar @cornealiariggar
I’m re-watching all the old doctor who’s (old being 9th to now) im at doomsday episode and i have two questions/problems with it.
10 June 2021 at 22:43 #71752AmeliaG @ameliag
- was wasnt Sarah Jane Smith, the Brigadere (not sure if shes time traveled) or any other old companions sucked into the void?
- why does Pete’s world have a Torchwood? the Dr only visited Rose’s/the world on the tv show. so when did pete’s world version of Queen Victoria meet the doctor and create torchwood?
Goodbye Rose… For now
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