Death in Heaven

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  • #38288
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @ichabod

    Okay, so did everything in the Xmas dream as-good-as-really-happen because they both remember it when they wake up (whenever that is), as a shared dream experience?

    Yes, because if they didn’t both remember it a) the Doctor wouldn’t have known to race back to rescue Clara and b) Clara’s first words on waking up wouldn’t have been ‘Am I young?’

    Nor would the Doctor realise he’d been given a second chance – because if he’d forgotten the lying scene, he’d still think Danny was alive. Nor would Clara realise that she can travel with him – because she’d think he was going back to live on Gallifrey and had just turned up to rescue her.

    That very last scene where they’re awake (and going into the TARDIS) might be short, but the actions in it imply that they remember the revelation that they were both lying in the cafe. The Doctor would never ask Clara to travel with him if he thought it’d take her away from Danny, and Clara would never agree if she thought she was keeping him away from Gallifrey.

    #38289
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @ichabod Yes, but these are mutal dreams. Interaction is possible, people’s memories are consistent with having been in the same dream, and there are consequences -if you die in the dream, you’re dead. I’m quite happy to go with what happened in the dream was experienced by them all. There’s enough evidence to support that. Think of it as an alternate reality state if you like.

    @lisa

    I going to go mash up a few jelly babies now

    ūüôā ¬† ūüôā ¬†ūüôā

    @bluesqueakpip

    Thanks for clarifying. ūüôā

    Couple of things from your post –

    the Time Lords know that there’s an extra Doctor by the end of DotD – they comment on it – “all 13 of them”. Therefore they know that at some stage (pretty soon) he is going to wangle at least 1 more regeneration, and likely from them. Maybe they are looking for him to grant him that very thing in Time of the Doctor¬†(obv they realise it’s in their own interests to do so of course, but they know it happens)

    And the gunless soldier in Listen – you’re right – the Doctor must recognise it as something from his own childhood. Even though it was such a long time ago. You don’t forget what the mysterious thing under the bed gave you. Even if that memory is buried very, very deep (and he did forget about the clockwork droids in Deep Breath) it’s there to be found. Something clicked at some level when he saw it with Rupert/young Danny. Did he see it when Orson had it? (dang my memory – will need to check that)

     

     

    #38291
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb

    Therefore they know that at some stage (pretty soon) he is going to wangle at least 1 more regeneration,

    No, they don’t. There are twelve regenerations. That means thirteen faces. That means they think all the Doctors from his first cycle are orbiting around Gallifrey.

    They don’t know that the Tennant Doctor had vanity issues and regenerated into himself. ūüėČ

    [Which is why there’s such a problem in The Time of The Doctor – they have no idea that the Doctor is dying of old age; they think the Smith Doctor has one regeneration left.]

    #38292
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Mind you, I do wonder what Moffat had in mind if Christopher Eccleston had agreed to do the 50th.

    Would he have decided the regeneration limit was the next producers problem? Or was he planning to use the faces seen in the BG Brain of Morbius and tell us that Hartnell wasn’t the first face, but the first incarnation to call himself ‘The Doctor’?

    #38293
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip — okay, thanks, I think I’ve got it now — so everything the lying is all straightened out because they both remember the shared dream bit where they admitted that to each other. ¬†I like the idea of a mutual dream being an “alternate state reality”. ¬†Just am very relieved that nobody has to go back and do over dream-things since the dream interactions have a “real” weight in memory as reality prime interactions, at least for Clara and CapDoc.

    #38296
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    Wow! Looks like I missed class! Fortunately this is the modern sort of course where the notes are all online ūüėõ

    Thank you @bluesqueakpip for further illumination

    #38297
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod – I am very inclined to read the 8th Doctor Who novel ‘the Shadows of Avalon’ for 2 reasons –
    1- the Doctor refers to himself as Merlin in this novel [and also in the 7th Doctor episode
    called ‘Battlfield’] but also because
    2- in the novel there is a king Constantine that creates an entire alternate state reality called Avalon
    with the help of Galifreyan interventionists and he does it completely thru sleeping and dreaming it all

    Anyway, I thought I would share that cause you mentioned the notion of a dream being an alternate
    reality which is what this novel is

    #38301
    Anonymous @

    @barbaralefty

    I agree. I missed it too -I assumed that there were 13 doctors zooming around Gallifrey as @scaryb said. But, I see @bluesqueakpip believes that there are 13 faces but they all belong to one cycle. So Hartnell is the first Doctor who then has 12 regens following that which brings Capdoc as the final regen (in their minds). They don’t know at all about the Two Tennants.

    I really don’t know if I had concluded that so sharply in my watching of the anniv special! Thank you Scary and Blue.

    #38304
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    Hey @purofilion et all. I’m still confused, but that’s not hard!

    Guessing I’m missing a chunk of Smithy timeline. I thought he was convinced he was a goner in the event of Trenzalore, suggesting he knows about reaching the limit. When did he find that out? Post Day of but pre Time of? (In the event of Trenzalore, break universe)

    This is a rule I guess, you forget stuff in which you cross your timeline, which is, I can see, a very useful device. But what then? Do you only forget till the most recent version of you involved participates, or forever?  I apologise, there is doubtless a FAQ, or a buzzfeed article, but you all know so much!

    #38307
    lisa @lisa

    @Barbara Lefty Why am I ‘not’ totally convinced that Capdoc crossed his time line in that 50th
    anniversary scene? I still think its possible that he knows about the incident of saving
    Galifrey which is why he began searching for it[chalkboards] as soon as he starting getting his
    mind back from regenerating? I think he didn’t forget any of that.
    It is a tangled conundrum but I still think this might be so

    #38311
    Anonymous @

    @lisa @barbaralefty actually, while I can drivel about plots and arcs and lovely acting I’m plain awful at working out the conundrums associated with the timey whimey of Who

    #38312
    Schamster @schamster

    @ScaryB¬†I understand that it is the same barn in Both “listen” and “DOTD”. I’m just not sure it’s on Gallifrey.

     

    @lisa¬†I agree that CapDoc has all the memories of SmithDoc and previous. But, he may still not know he was there, Because he hasn’t been there yet.¬† Either because Smith didn’t know he was there or because of the crossed time lines.¬† Maybe the whole reason he goes at all is to find where Gallifrey went. Or even to change things so he can bring Gallifrey back without resuming the Time War.

    #38313
    lisa @lisa

    @schamster – Doesn’t Capdoc remember himself being there thru memories he inherited from
    the SmithDoc? Because SmithDoc knows that he showed up SmithDoc must recall that specific
    moment and how they all came together and why. While I agree there would have to be
    numerous holes in his memories of the event I have to think still that he has to have
    a rough idea of his general involvement. Also like you I absolutely agree he went there
    not just to save Galifrey but also to search for where it was left. Would love to see that
    whole event revisited thru the Capdoc’s perspective!

    #38315
    ichabod @ichabod

    @schamster ¬†— I do like that idea — a revisit from Capdoc’s p.o.v.! ¬†I’m curious about memory for the Doctor (any of him, really). ¬†As a person who thinks reincarnation is the most likely form of an “afterlife” for humans, it makes sense to me that we generally *don’t* start a our current life with access to our last lifetime, let alone the 50 or 100 some might have stacked up behind us. ¬†I think you’re suggesting that for a regenerated Doctor, simply in terms of not being steamrollered flat and paralytic by at least 1,000 yrs of memory coming crashing in at once, a kind of narrow-aperture amnesia is required, at least for a while. ¬†So how the heck does his memory work once that aperture starts to iris open on a broader and deeper past, prompted by — a return to the physical, sensory setting of a series of events from back then? ¬†By some more abstract sort of mental data retrieval tree of nerves and synapses? ¬†Can he locate his way back to a specific memory-set by equations written on a blackboard? ¬†We know that he dreams, so that could be a starting place for a search — has that been done in an episode? ¬†I imagine that with his “piano” sized brain, there’s massive storage space, but info retrieval is the tricky bit even with just us, isn’t it?

    I think I would have been more convinced by Smithdoc’s manic ADD if I’d had a sense of him struggling to deal with all that memory — which is a more foregrounded matter now that a whole new set of regens has begun! ¬†If humans lived 150 yrs or more, I could see a business downloading and storing half-centuries worth of an individual’s accumulated memories externally, to make room for another round after age 100.

     

     

    #38316
    ichabod @ichabod

    A scrap more about the Doctor’s memory in gif-set form (and evidence that tumblr is not worthless after all):

    http://ksica.tumblr.com/post/111301760098

    She’s right, of course; the scale of human life vs. a very long chain of Time Lord lives can’t truly align but can only touch off quick sparks here and there, vanished in an instant. ¬†Well, that’s not what *he* says, but as we know, the Doctor lies, and sometimes doesn’t even know what he remembers. ¬†This wildly uneven, multi-format, committee-created, witty, silly, hugely popular television show about imaginary adventures roaming the universe(s) with a semi-god is, in addition to all that, an ongoing tragedy of doomed connections. ¬†There are gory grand operas, there are dark and rolling Mahler symphonies and Sibelius tone poems lighter and brighter than this endlessly unspooling story of relentless change and loss, told by humans to humans about — who else? — ourselves.

    I really shouldn’t be up this late; the cats know better, and have gone to bed. ¬†Never mind, this is what happens when you get notes on a funeral from one batch of friends, and a message about another friend just getting home from the hospital after a stroke, in the same day’s emails . . .

    #38319
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @schamster

    I’m just not sure it’s on Gallifrey.

    Is that because of the sky colour? But we get green skies, red skies, orange skies on Earth, as well as our standard blue. Gallifrey had a war on – those sky trenches may well have affected the colour.

    #38320
    Schamster @schamster

    @lisa ok I am going to try to put my¬†Thoughts¬†into words so, if this makes no sense I apologize now. In the 50th, Smith never interacts or reacts to the presence of Capaldi.¬† By my thoughts that means¬†Smith doesn’t know¬†Capaldi is there. Which means that Capaldi would not remember seeing himself there.¬†However, It doesn’t matter anyway because he would be crossing his own timeline and therefore would not remember until his last regeneration experiences it.

    @ichabod a revisit from Capaldis p.o.v. is exactly what I was envisioning.¬† We can always hope.¬† As for the memories Tennant was the one who always seemed to have the memory problems”thick, old and thick”. Smith admitted why he didn’t have that problem, he simply forgets.

    #38321
    lisa @lisa

    @schamster – So when all the Time lords came to the save Galifrey party maybe it didn’t even matter
    if Capdoc remembers cause when Smithdoc spoke to TomDoc in the gallery TomDoc told him he would need
    to search for Galifrey and at that specific moment he wasn’t crossing any time line. Therefore, Capdoc
    should be able to recall SmithDocs memories of this event having happened IMHO.
    But during that conversation between Smithdoc and Tomdoc he was already back in his own timeline
    remembering what had happened! That’s the bit that still makes me confused. As far as Smithdoc saying
    he forgets he also lies. I think he says that when either too embarrassed or needing to manipulate a
    situation
    Still I hope that SM does revisit all of this thru Capdoc ! I have always thought that would be extremely helpful to explain the loopholes. As far as the barn goes– I tend to think its the same barn we see both
    times only the environments around it are completely changed from the ravages of war – farmland turned to
    desert dust.

    #38322
    Schamster @schamster

    @lisa¬† I agree that he remembers Smithdoc talking to Tomdoc. but, that doesn’t mean He remembers (through Smithdoc) that he was at the “save Gallifrey” party. my point is that I hope he crashes the party to find where Galifrey is.¬† And, more importantly, how to bring it back. Because in “Time Of The Doctor” he didn’t have to know where it was or even how to bring it back but, the time war would have continued if Gallifrey came back on its own.

    As for the barn, I am probably being picky but I neither saw Nor heard anything to tell me it was on¬†Gallifrey.¬† As I walked out of the Theater I was not sure. I was told by my friends that it was but, I am still not sure.¬† I guess it rests on the¬†Statement that “The Moment” is a weapon.¬† When that specific terminology was used I pictured an item roughly like a sword or¬†gun that would be wielded not a bomb to be placed.

    #38327
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    @ichabod, I really like the narrow aperture theory of memory (which I recall cropping up somewhere else in my reading recently!) It seems like a useful tool for the temporally afflicted.

    I thought Deep Breath dealt well with the sense of chaos that might precede the narrowing, a deep breath, drowning for a while, then, by the “I’m not your boyfriend,” speech, surfacing into bright air so crisp and sharp a person might cut themselves on it. Time does seem to be rounding the edges somewhat.

    Gosh that was a nice Sauv Blanc!

    #38330
    ichabod @ichabod

    @barbaralefty ¬†— Yes, a sudden emergence from the confusion, full of focus and purpose. ¬†So much so, in fact, that I thought, wow, we’re gonna get a bunch of stories about going back to places and events where he *did* make mistakes and he’s going to try to change outcomes or ameliorate damage, and that should be really interesting — ¬†but no, it was only one mistake that he has in mind: playing infatuated puppy as SmithDoc.

    This is also the scene where he’s just been selecting his wardrobe as CapDoc, right? ¬†So he’s at least dressed in character, not in SmithDoc’s clothes or a street lush’s overcoat any more, and that’s a visible declaration: Now I’m going to find out everything I can about the guy who wears this outfit (for starters, he is *not* a dashing young swain with a snogbox. ¬†Next:). ¬†That’s the rest of Series 8 — finding that out.

    It’s a brilliant device; I was all admiration when I first saw it, and still am.

     

    #38459
    TenthDoctorFtw @tenthdoctorftw

    Did anyone think that this season has a problem with what Doctor Who is all about? Time travel. I mean all they seem to focus on this year is that stuff happens on earth, lets figure out a solution. They rarely time travel or even go to other planets anymore. I seriously don’t like the production this year, its too *out there* if you know what I mean. Capaldi I love though…

    #38462
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @tenthdoctorftw

    Not really. I thought this season was about the question ‘Doctor Who?’

    #38467
    Anonymous @

    @tenthdoctorftw

    I think, judging by your handle, you a real fan of Tennant?? ūüôā

    And that’s fine, but in this season -the one you may not have watched, the first episode, Deep Breath, was set in a completely different era =time travel. They also time travelled to meet Robin Hood and also into the future to raid a bank.¬† Kill the Moon also involved time travel -but remember, the box travels, but not always thru time.

    Many seasons of Who -particularly with Pertwee¬† -had the Doctor on earth much of the time -and yet it was successful and clever. I don’t think time travel is the key to the show. That’s a surprise, but I think most people would support that hypothesis.

    I don’t understand this:

    “its too *out there* if you know what I mean”

    Dr Who has always skidded over boundaries: from the very first episode. Look at the producer and the director in 1963! Then, look at the things they thought of during Tennant’s run -some quite incredible concepts which were either adored or hated by the various fans.

    ‘Being out there’ is what the show is about. Hang on,¬† you said they’re not time travelling -so, how can they be ‘too out there’ when you said they’re not!

    Confused puro ūüôā

    #38506
    lisa @lisa

    Watched this again. What a good episode! Missy the lunatic going back and forth on the Doctors
    timeline and making all those meticulous plans for something really big but never quite sufficiently.
    Wondering about how she zaps in and out of the matrix? She might be a program. That implies maybe more
    than 1 Missy. Could matrix Missy be the familiar?

    #38527
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa ¬†Matrix Missy! ¬†Love it! ¬†I hope we can also have a MixMaster somewhere along the line — or has that already happened in some form?

    Talking about this show is a wonderful game — so glad I found you guys!

     

    #38530
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod – So about this ‘wonderful game’ ! Because can anyone ever love a thing more than
    this has been? Like you I find that I’m also overwhelmingly engaged in spite of myself.
    Believe me – I’ve even tried to take a quiet corner break away and failed lol!

    #38532
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa ¬†Yeah, I’m gad nobody saw my pathetic attempts to stop typing and go the hell to sleep last night . . . well, this morning, and not all that early either.

    It sometimes takes the form of a sort of brain-fever, doesn’t it? ¬†Love Moffat et al, for writing tv for people with very hot brains . . . and everybody else as well.

    #38545
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Purofilion

    Re not time travelling much – In addition to your examples there was my favourite, Listen. Going back on the Doctor’s own timeline so Clara could be his “thing” under the bed! ¬†That’s pretty “out there” IMO.

    You are so right when you say that being “out there” is wbat the show does best.

    #38547
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb absolutely.

    I was reading some garbage book at a caf√© today -where some dude is a paramoron investigator and is convinced that ‘demons’ are the same as ‘aliens’: all from some demon/Buffy dimension but all hell bound nevertheless.

    Say that to the Doctor in 1963!

    #38548
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    Did you say reincarnation?

    Do I have to do this all over again??

    Till I get better at it. I hope not….

    #38551
    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion ¬†Don’t worry about it, it’s all just theory. ¬†But yeah, I’ve done enough reading and poking around and consulting with this and that to have a notion about this, and to me it makes sense, but, eh . . . ? ¬†So what? ¬†Every single one of us will eventually find out the truth(s), won’t we? ¬†Nobody drops out of this school. ¬†Wish I could, frankly — but attaining and then somehow hanging onto enlightenment looks to be just too damn much *work*, with no guarantee of getting there by that means anyway.

    I like your paramoron investigator. ¬†I used to read some of that stuff, but it’s so boringly pedestrian and Wal-Martish on the page, no patience for it now. ¬†They tend to model those “demon-hunter” blah-blahs on old gangster stories, due to severe lack of imagination. ¬†It’s much better on DW, since there’s a damn zygon right in front of you on your screen, and it will be dealt with forthwith so we can have a story about trees saving the planet next.

    Quite happy with that, thanks.

     

    #38641
    Schamster @schamster

    Ugh! Was almost asleep. ¬†when I was struck with a horrible timey wimey solution to where Galifrey is… It is nowhere, Until Capdoc¬† participates in the events of DOTD.¬† If All 13 of the doctors saved Gallifrey, The Capdoc still has to do his part.¬† Granted Smithdoc got a new round of regenerations from them after DOTD but, I still think it is possible.

    #38643
    lisa @lisa

    @Shamster – NO – not fair but yes seems obvious its too soon. So that may be why when
    Missy told him where Galifrey is it could be that it hadn’t arrived there yet?
    WOW ! I have a feeling we may all be waiting for this for a long while – lol

    #38644
    ichabod @ichabod

    Oh — ya think?! ¬†Did Missy tell him *because* she knew he’d go looking and it would’t be there yet? ¬†Arrghh!

    #38688
    Schamster @schamster

    Well it does give rise to the idea ( I do love to wildly speculate :), that the reason Gallifrey was asking “Doctor who?” was they wanted to get the right regeneration.¬† then realizing that he was out, but hadn’t reached all 13 gave him the new cycle.

    #38690
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    @schamster, genius! Just not arrived yet! ūüėÄ

    #38691
    Schamster @schamster

    LOL ! Well I did say it was wild speculation

     

    #38698
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @schamster @lisa

    Your posts got me thinking. I was wondering if, perhaps,¬†CapDoc had known where Gallifrey was hidden at the end of tDotD, he may have even been the one who hid it.¬†Missy was showing off by saying the co-ordinates to show that she knew where it had been. (The Master¬†had been sent back into the timelock with Rassilion in tEoT.) The Doctor goes to check if it’s still there and it no longer is and that’s why we see him reacting the way he did – I thought¬†his¬†reaction was very intense. It could just be that his reaction¬†is¬†how this Doctor is, but I was surprised to see him take it out on the TARDIS by smashing the console, especially after tDW (a favourite episode of mine).

    But then that does raise the question of why the Doctor acts as if he doesn’t know where it is? To keep it safe, temporary amnesia, Dream Crabs?

    #38701
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @papermoon

    I honestly don’t think the Capaldi Doctor has yet been to the 50th Anniversary episode.

    Mainly because of those calculations he keeps doing, but also because I think we’ll see him get there onscreen.

    #38702
    Barbara Lefty @barbaralefty

    @bluesqueakpip, I think that was at least part of what I was driving at previously ūüėČ

    #38707
    TenthDoctorFtw @tenthdoctorftw

    @purofilion, Don’t be so fast to judge…I’ve watched all the new seriew including the 8th, but can’t you see that Moffat has began to mess it all up? They made the best choice choosing Peter Capaldi but missed the whole point during the season. Plot holes everywhere. I mean take Death in heaven for exmple, the only explanation they gave for Danny helping Clara and The Doctor was “the power of love”…I love Doctor Who, it’s my favorite series but its time someone else took over.

    #38708
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @bluesqueakpip that could be the case, I’m just throwing ideas into the mix. ūüôā

    #38709
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    What exactly do you think was ‘the point’ of the last series?¬†You might find it doesn’t tally with what many thought the point of the series was? And what does that really mean anyway? But I’d recommend scanning back through the posts on Death in Heaven and other stories to see that there aren’t really that many what you call plot holes. For instance, Danny saving Clara/The Doctor is not so much a plot hole as a perfectly valid plot point that you don’t personally like.

    I think SM is doing just fine. In fact, better than fine.

    #38713
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @tenthdoctorftw

    the only explanation they gave for Danny helping Clara and The Doctor was ‚Äúthe power of love‚Ä̂Ķ

    Really? Were we watching different episodes?

    Very clearly stated: ‘love’ isn’t an emotion. ‘Being in love’ is an emotion. It wasn’t the ‘power of love’ that made Danny save Clara and The Doctor, it was the implicit promise he’d made to Clara (the Doctor just got lucky) that he’d keep her safe.

    It wasn’t the power of love, it was the sheer power of ‘duty’ to a soldier. And that particular power has been previously established as able to override Cyber-programming. Not by Steven Moffat; by Russell T Davies.

    Funnily enough, I don’t recall a huge amount of complaints that the only reason given for Yvonne Hartmann helping the Doctor and Rose in Doomsday was ‘the power of duty’. ūüėČ

    #38715
    ichabod @ichabod

    @tenthdoctorftw ¬†I couldn’t disagree more strongly. ¬†The Doctor equates “love” here with the implicit promise of the lover to protect the beloved, and CyberDan’s gesture in the next shot is to enclose Clara in an armored, one-armed hug, to drive the point home. ¬†“He will never hurt her,” the Doctor says, in case someone missed the point of what that “promise” is. ¬†MissyMaster says, “It can’t be!” or some such, because she’s created her Cyber army to turn the dead against the living and make them into unstoppable destroyers. ¬†But even if CyberDan can’t feel his full range of human feelings any more, since they’ve been turned off, he was actually a real-life soldier — and as such, he remains determined to keep to his promise to protect and defend those he values.

    I don’t see a plot hole. ¬†I see a well-designed climactic moment in the story, followed up by CyberDan’s speech before launching his army into the sky, about “the promise of a soldier”. ¬†He knows what he’s talking about, and he’s carrying out that promise.

    It’s the writers’ and actors’ job to choose the “point of the series” (usually, as in this case, more complex than just one “point”) and then actualize it onscreen. ¬†I thought they did that brilliantly, and am very pleased with the direction that Steven Moffat, as writer and show runner, took the show. ¬†Looking forward to more of that high quality in Series 9.

     

    #38718
    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish @ichabod @bluesqueakpip

    re @tenthdoctorftw

    I admire your tenacity. But this dude has a one-track exposition of “I hate Moffat.” He hasn’t absorbed episodes and is here to incite argument rather than debate. I’m not gonna fall into that plot hole again. ¬†I enjoyed re-reading that statement (which I can hear perfectly in Capaldi’s voice) “love isn’t an emotion” with its perfect promise and one of duty. Coming as it did at that time of year it made a significant statement. Far more deep than ‘girl/boy love saves the day’. Metaphors abound in the World of Who. And thank God for that. I like that when I watch each episode, there are layers of intricacy – and I need to work to find them.

    @barbaralefty must echo the others who loved your comment about taking science out for a night on the town -brilliant! (on the other thread but worth noting here)

    It’s interesting ‘with the¬†read’¬†over the¬†debate (much better than a “I hate Moffat argument” anyways) about where the 12th Doctor is in his regeneration phase and the sort of person he’s turned into. I think by the end of the series he knew ‘his’ place, as it were? “An idiot in a box” going here,¬†going there; helping people. He’s seems much more grounded by the human race than say, what we saw, in The Daemons, last week -almost less alien, even though he’s not apologising for any of his tactless attributes. Like Cordelia in Buffy, he’d agree “tact is another way of not saying the truth”.

    Has he forgotten where Gallifrey is? Completely? Or does he vaguely know -hence the messy calculations: is he trying to find them amidst the messy accumulations of all his years’ memories? Something’s bound to get totally lost and others ‘a bit’ lost in 2000 years.

    I find his confused state occasionally quite comforting, as if he’s more like one of us. Also,¬†he’s got rather a lot on his mind. Is he good? Is he heroic? Can he find Gallifrey? And should he?

    @schamster I like the idea that Gallifrey isn’t where it should be. Yet.

    And Blue’s point is probably spot on: we’ll see it on-screen later.¬† We were given an insight and I think they’d want to show us the the arrival to that point ‘in time’. A nice cluster-point to possibly ‘end’ the cycle of the 12th? Now that would be interesting.¬† Although I think, as it’s a different anniversary this year, they might delve into the role of the 12th¬† finding Gallifrey and ‘cup-a-soup-ing’ it much as Smith understood the significance of stasis cubes and the 3D painting “Gallifrey Falls -No More”.

    Regardez-vous, puro.

    #38719
    Anonymous @

    @ichabod generally those who see plot holes where there are none, usually go on to the next statement: “look over there: Deus ex machina” > I’m surprised our friend @FTW¬† hasn’t woven that bit of predictability into it yet.

    There’s still time ūüôĀ

    #38720
    Anonymous @

    @tenthdoctorftw

    you got me to respond after all.¬†Crafty. Realising that your first post netted only one response based on this “Did anyone think that this season has a problem with what Doctor Who is all about? Time travel. I mean all they seem to focus on this year is that stuff happens on earth, lets figure out a solution. They rarely time travel” you then harped on about the next thing a person does which nets quick results:

    “but can‚Äôt you see that Moffat has began to mess it all up? They made the best choice choosing Peter Capaldi but missed the whole point during the season. Plot holes everywhere. “

    This netted you much more. There are many places where they ‘hate Moffat’. You can get T-shirts n’ everything. Usually these same people are united by an apparent¬†love of Capaldi.

    Why?¬†Doctor Who is not ‘The Thick of It’.

    My advice would be to stop watching altogether or get the T-Shirt.

    #38721
    lisa @lisa

    Just been wondering about how big Galifrey is in its current location? I always
    liked the notion of Timelords being able to hide in something the size of a
    pocket watch. So if size doesn’t matter and if Missy has possibly done something
    with Galifrey then maybe its sitting inside the Matrix on her desk?
    Nah- too weird
    But maybe if I could match the Coordinates to the Matrix? I cant believe that
    I dedicate extra time on the clock to thinking this stuff up lol!!!

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