Death in Heaven
8 November 2014 at 17:58 #35010Craig @craigEmperor
Moffat gives us perhaps his best season finale yet. Maybe the best ever? It’s an excellent episode peppered with jokes and genuinely terrifying scenes. Everyone is great, Peter Capaldi is magnificent but Michelle Gomez is stand-out.
With Cybermen on the streets of London, old friends unite against old enemies and the Doctor takes to the air. Can the Doctor and UNIT stop Missy as she threatens the whole of humanity?
The stakes are high, and it’s impossible to tell who will, and who won’t, get a happy ending. Sacrifices must be made, and significant lies told.
This is emotional. You’re either going to feel anger by the end or there will tears in your eyes. Maybe both.8 November 2014 at 21:03 #35025
BOOOOM!8 November 2014 at 21:10 #35026Whisht @whisht
What I really love is the way Moffat plays with the audience (“ooh, you thought Missy was an avatar… or Rani or.. oh and you thought Clara was the Doctor…?)
😀8 November 2014 at 21:11 #35027Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
It was fantastic.8 November 2014 at 21:13 #35028
I’ve always liked S.M.’s finale, but in the beginning mostly for the style, the emotional logic and River Song. This is the second time in a row where- it really, really makes sense.
Missy was genuinely creepy at points. And I loved the moment when she thought back through that she ‘chose Clara because she could make the doctor do anything.’ Danny was amazing, not always nice, constantly great. And unfortunately his comment about the doctor, officers and cannon fodder…
UNIT was a genuine surprise though the return of the brigades was rather signposted. Actually though, what I really like about this episode is that dispute a couple of tricks in the run up- Moffet played it really fair. And I was wrong, no timely who my this time- I think i like it better for it.8 November 2014 at 21:16 #35029
No timely whimey I was trying to write.
Given what the doctor said about concepts of the afterlife, however, it’s still possible that she was the papal mainframe. Remember the line ‘the relivent afterlife have been informed’?8 November 2014 at 21:16 #35030
Oh OneNote- Clara eyes in the opening credits, wasn’t it?8 November 2014 at 21:17 #35031
My FEELS! 😮
So many things!
As @IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan said: brain’splody
(\(\;;/)/)8 November 2014 at 21:18 #35032
@miapatrick yes. That was Clara’s eyes in the opening credits.
Nice misdirection Mr Moffat!
(\(\;;/)/)8 November 2014 at 21:21 #35033The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman
I found it quite underwhelming. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t bad either, it was just okay. I liked the idea of using the dead to create Cybermen and it was fun to see the UNIT team back (although I didn’t see the need in killing off Osgood). On the other hand I just didn’t like The Master in this. The actress’s performance was very annoying to me. I know some of the older Master’s were camp but I felt that she really went too far. Last week I felt that the character being female now was nothing more than a gimmick, and my opinion hasn’t changed. I liked how her motivation was just to get the Doctors approval. This has been an aspect of The Master’s character that hasn’t really been seen since Delgado’s incarnation, which is a shame since it makes their relationship more interesting and I’m glad it has been included here.
I have to admit, being a fan of The Thick of It I’m a bit disappointed that Chris Addison didn’t get any screen time with Capaldi.
It’s certainly watchable, and nowhere near the worst series finale (I’m looking at you Last of the Time Lords)
I’d give it a 5/10
Also, Father Christmas? seriously?8 November 2014 at 21:23 #35034
although I didn’t see the need in killing off Osgood
Then you do not know enough about storytelling. It is a fundamental of good storytelling that victory has a cost.
Especially on this, of all weekends.8 November 2014 at 21:23 #35035
Nope, does not compute. What? Is Missy truly dead? Is Gallifrey truly back? Where’s the little boy? Is that the last we see of Clara? WHY IS OSGOOD DEAD?!
I think I’ll have to rewatch before I can have coherent opinions on this episode, but this is what I think so far:
WOW. Good job, Moff. Good bloomin’ job.
*goes into hibernation until Christmas*8 November 2014 at 21:27 #35036
Oh, another thought! Moffat actually does hate us! He killed off both the audience avatars! (The Nethersphere guy going ‘SQUUEEEEEEE’ made me laugh and cry at the same time)8 November 2014 at 21:32 #35037
@ABXY- yes I loved that.
There was a lot of fan teasing- in a nice way. Four wives, all dead, children and grandchildren lost PRESUMED dead, clone daughter. A lot of clarification and bad news for the Asexual Doctor Presivation Socity or whatever it was- on a blog on here I think?8 November 2014 at 21:35 #35038Apopheniac @apopheniac
Moffet played it really fair.
Oh no he didn’t! I can forgive him character and series arcs I don’t like. (not many) But I will never forgive him pissing on the spoilerphobe fans by inserting the Christmas preview in the middle of the closing credits. I could just imagine the evil cackling he was doing when he agreed that. (And who else’s heart leapt in thinking it might be Danny Pink at the door?)
I need to re-watch tomorrow before gathering my thoughts on this ep.
Not just Clara’s eyes in the credits, but Jenna’s name before Peter’s. That was the kind of mis-direction that made me chuckle, since it was well known even to us spoilerphobes that Clara was going to, at some time, say that Clara Oswald never existed.8 November 2014 at 21:38 #35039
Is Missy truly dead?
Probably not – the visual effect made it nicely ambiguous, but either way the Brigadier got her out of the way and saved the Doctor’s soul.
Is Gallifrey truly back?
No. As was clearly shown, Missy lied. And then the Doctor lied to Clara as Clara lied to him.8 November 2014 at 21:39 #35040The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman
@pedant Please don’t assume how much I know about storytelling techniques based on one sentence I wrote, It’s quite condescending.8 November 2014 at 21:40 #35041
But I will never forgive him pissing on the spoilerphobe fans by inserting the Christmas preview in the middle of the closing credits.
Oh for crying out load. Moffat has repeatedly made it clear that nothing released through official channels is a spoiler. Indeed, as this ep showed, it is more often misdirection.8 November 2014 at 21:40 #35042Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip
Is Missy truly dead?
I think the answer to that one is an unequivocal ‘No’. She’d have been legging it for the horizon if she hadn’t had a ‘get out clause’ available. 😈
However, if they keep to the old Ainley tradition of killing the Master off and then just brushing it off on the next appearance, they don’t have to worry about the Doctor chasing after Missy. He thinks she’s dead, so he won’t be looking for her.
I really, really hope that they get Michelle Gomez back; she’s fantastic. 😀8 November 2014 at 21:40 #35043
@miapatrick On the subject of that quote, who do we know from that? So far I have:
• 1 wife
– River Song
• 1 Grandchild
– Susan (Though I’m not 100% sure of this is biological or if she’s ‘lost’ as my Classic Who knowledge is horrific o_O)
• Clone Daughter
– Jenny from ‘The Doctor’s Daughter’
Can anyone think of any more?8 November 2014 at 21:42 #35044
@Apopheniac- well by fair I meant out and out lies, withholding vital information, or re-writing ‘bad wolf’… I see what you mean about spoilers, but they often do it for the Christmas episode, it’s sort of seen as s different thing- last year I don’t think they did, but that one was inside the arch…
Yes, I wondered when the music kicked in at that point if they would. Another peice of good humoured fan-teasing.
A reason for the hostility over on the guardian?8 November 2014 at 21:45 #35045
@pedant @BlueSqueakPip – So Missy = Not Dead. That’s established, so where do you think she’ll pop up next? I think she’ll bide her time and not try anything too big for a while. If I were to make a guess, I’d say she won’t be in the next series.8 November 2014 at 21:47 #35046
I really, really hope that they get Michelle Gomez back; she’s fantastic.
But hopefully sparingly. I remember 10 year old me being deeply pissed off when they recast the Master after Delgado’s death. I had started to feel a sense of “Oh No. It’s The Master again.” And yes, grown up me knows how unworthy that is.
But I want to see the Zarbies back first. Or the Quarks.
Or, you know. New stuff.
I go where the evidence leads.8 November 2014 at 21:47 #35047Juniperfish @juniperfish
So Missy is alive (one of the immutable laws of the Who universe is that the Master never really dies) and Gallifrey is out there somewhere.
Truth, lies and remembrance were the timely themes.
Clara telling Cyber-Danny, before she realised it was him, that the Doctor was the most important man in her life – followed by Danny’s decision not to remember/ not to feel – ouch.
And Missy telling the Doctor she wanted her friend back, and savouring his regret as he “killed” her – double ouch.
No doubt Missy was likewise savouring the Doctor’s despair from somewhere as he found out her Gallifrey co-ordinates were a lie.
Clara and the Doctor lying to each other at the end was played beautifully. They should, of course, have remembered what good liars they both are.
Missy’s temptation of the Doctor was very Faustian – a cyber army to defeat the daleks (although they don’t come off that well in encounters so far) and save the universe…
And Danny’s decision to save the boy he killed rather than come back to Clara was genuinely touching and a comment on war and its survivor’s guilt.
The cyber-army fix by Danny was a bit quick after all the build-up, but Missy as a maniacal Mary Poppins was truly a delight.8 November 2014 at 21:48 #35048
@ABXY- queen Elizabeth? Still one more than I would have thought. Assuming ‘wife’ to mean significant relationship, one on gallifray, Susan’s grandmother and the mother if the children mentioned in the Jenny episode.
Now we know four wives, probably safe to assume at least one, maybe two from Gallifray. But how old was he when he ran away? He’s said he looked like an old man, like you do when you’re young in one episode. (His new generations have clearly rejuvenated him…)8 November 2014 at 21:50 #35049JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster
It was excellent.8 November 2014 at 21:52 #35050
@miapatrick – Actually, there’s not really a mother to Jenny, as she’s from a machine and the Doctor’s DNA. But Queen Liz, of course! So, continuing the assumption of one wife on Gallifrey, that leaves one more open to speculation.8 November 2014 at 21:56 #35051Anonymous @
Marilyn Monroe?8 November 2014 at 21:56 #35052
@abxy, I know, I said the mother of the children mentioned in the Jenny episode. He tells Donna he’d been a father before 😉8 November 2014 at 21:57 #35053
@Margaret-Blaine- yes! Thank you!8 November 2014 at 21:58 #350548 November 2014 at 22:00 #35055
@Margaret-Blaine – Oh yeah! Thanks ^_^8 November 2014 at 22:03 #35056
@abxy, @Margaret-Blaine- that’s what I call teamwork. Would have bothered me fir ages without this site.8 November 2014 at 22:07 #35057
@miapatrick @Margaret-Blaine – Whovians are the best when it comes to collaborating on things, mainly because there’s so much Who, and everyone knows different bits better ^_^ You guys are awesome 😀8 November 2014 at 22:15 #35058
@ABXY- well that scene near the end of Robot of Sherwood works better as an analogy…8 November 2014 at 22:26 #350598 November 2014 at 22:35 #35060JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
As ever, proper thoughts later but lots to love here. Just great rather than awesome though. I still think that SM is yet to match The Big Bang for a finale. This still trumps most of the RTD season closers with a couple of notable exceptions. And loved the Cyber-Brig. And Capaldi has definitely found his Delgado. Those two were great together. Though as @pedant says, only if they don’t overuse her.8 November 2014 at 22:41 #35061
Watching through a second time 🙂
GAH! you CANT do heat scans UNDER the Earth. *ahem* sorry just had to get that out of my system.
That’s just the way my brain works. No problem with dead people in graves becoming Cybermen, But someone throws out a nonsense sensor thing and I lose my mind XD.
*unpauses* and cracks open another beer
(\(\;;/)/)8 November 2014 at 22:45 #35062JimboMcMaster @jimbomcmaster
I can’t think of what to say as I liked pretty much all of it. Think of a thing to comment on, and I probably liked it. Particularly noteworthy, although by no means the best thing, was the return of the end of series Christmas cliffhanger, and a good one too. (not a spoiler, just the next event in the Doctor’s busy life!). Also, the Doctor’s reaction to no-Gallifrey was very sad. You might think this is silly, but that’s probably the most moving scene of any TV show/film I’ve ever seen. Forget the Titanic or whatever. Poor Doctor.
Michelle Gomez was excellent as the Master, a worthy choice. I was worried Moffat was gonna make her all flirty with the Doctor, just cos she’s a woman now, but thankfully no. Her and the Doctor’s dynamic was refreshing. I wonder if we’ll get her as a semi-regular arc plot character, like River was. If not, I’m sort of disappointed that it was River and not her that had that place. Anyway, this incarnation is unpredictable and hateable, which works well with the Master.
I’m glad Clara’s not the Doctor.
Cyber-Brigadier is an odd idea the more I think of it, but a good one I think.
And the parting of the Doctor and Clara. Surely not their last meeting?
There was me saying I didn’t have much to say.8 November 2014 at 22:46 #35063
They had to bring something in at the end to shine just a glimmer of hope. Even evil Moffat, who KILLED OSGOOD (the audience avatar as @abxy pointed out!) and is making us wait for WEEKS, couldn’t leave Clara and the Doctor as such broken souls. Would have been just too bleak to bear. (And I love that it was Santa not Father Christmas. Would have loved it to be Danny but it needed a big ridiculous thing to finish on a WTF and a laugh!)
OMG. Everyone, especially Anderson acting their socks off. Poor Danny. He’s only dead cos Clara phoned him because she wanted to explain her lies to him. His dead face in the cybersuit. So grey. That was dark. And Clara metaphorically putting the knife in twice – “You know what a convincing(?) liar I am” and then telling him the Doctor was the most important person to her.
The boy he killed saved him by coming back for reconciliation (the reflection on the delete gizmo at the end of last week). So Danny finds redemption by saving him. His parents are going to get a helluva shock… assuming he’s still got parents. Clara should look after him.
Well done @phaseshift for calling a theme of armies and remembrance. Could write screeds on this but I thought it was so powerful, especially this weekend.
And cybermen are scary, and tragic, again. Dammit! Would have liked to have seen more of them. (Was that Moffat giving a writing lesson in scary cybermen to Neil Gaiman…? 😉 )
And who’d have bet at the beginning of this series that we’d be screaming for the return of a female Master! Well, assuming the majority of opinion so far in this forum reflects general public opinion. I thought Gomez was magnificent. Hugely playful, highly manipulative and cunning. definitely up there with Delgado. I presume they’ve left her end ambiguous to see what the reaction is).
The whole cast were great, as were direction and the effects. So that’s where this year’s budget went!! 😉 I was UNDER the sofa, shouting at the characters, I laughed and I cried. And the Brig 😥 Great stuff.8 November 2014 at 23:00 #35064
Gallifrey. He’s been back this series but he doesn’t know it. If Clara fesses up to having been back there… Can she get a substitute (un-wardamaged) Danny back through Orson somehow? Still don’t know why Orson had a TARDIS spacesuit).
@spider It was obviously some highly advanced tech developed by UNIT that can heat scan underground. Top secret dontcha know…?! 😉 Cheers!
(Hope everyone who called poor Danny a manipulative bully feels suitably contrite now!! (Looking at you Ms @bluesqueakpip 😉 ) *Stamps foot!!* Or I spose you think he was still being a bully by making Clara effectively kill him, like switching off the life support on someone who would otherwise be, and who is ready to, die.
Just thinking – Rory was the Lone Centurian, Clara has the Lone Cyeberman to look out for her.8 November 2014 at 23:06 #35065
OI! @danmartinuk – go back and edit your Graun piece. You don’t seem to have noticed that the Master lied about Gallifrey.8 November 2014 at 23:07 #35066XAD4 @xad4
I might have missed something, but could it be that now we don’t only NOT know the bad news Clara wanted to tell Danny, but also the bad news Clara wanted to tell the Doctor? Probably the same thing?8 November 2014 at 23:10 #35067PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
Loved it. Tell me, have we had a series closure as bleak as that ever? Bleak, but from the depleted soil of death comes new life and hope. Like others I was gutted by the seeming casual death of Osgood. I cheered when it was implied that the Brig had made a last stand to save his daughter. Old soldiers never die – they just get converted, and still manage to do the right thing, it seems.
I thought Sam and Jenna both played a blinder here in their parts – I think it will be a difficult one to revisit for that reason. I also bow to those majestic Lords of Time, Capaldi and Gomez, seemingly relishing each moment of their scenes together. Missy is the scariest Master since Delgado for me. I’d agree – used sparingly Missy could be something special for this era of Who. I loved her “Last Temptation of the Doctor” with the Army. And didn’t CapaldiDoc look tempted at one point?
There is so much to chew over in this episode from beginning to end, in which The Doctor and Clara still can’t but help lying to each other. Possibly telling themselves those lies are for the best.
I don’t think I will be back until Wednesday/Thursday. I shall watch again then, savour, and deliberate more. Genuinly good TV, as well as Doctor Who.8 November 2014 at 23:11 #35068
Anyone else find it suddenly odd (nice, but suddenly odd) to see Smithy pop up in the Woman in the Shop scene? Capaldi was stunning in this.8 November 2014 at 23:17 #35069
So the dead can now rest in peace, and we can relax that we won’t actually feel what our bodies are going through after death.
Bbbb..but – we need to watch out for the rain!!8 November 2014 at 23:31 #35070Anonymous @
Okay I have one question.. The dead have already been burried, but they rise as cyber men, so we’re they burried as cyber men? Were they dug up? Or does the rain somehow soak through the ground onto the dead creating a suit?8 November 2014 at 23:36 #35071PhaseShift @phaseshiftTime Lord
It may be worth watching Nightmare in Silver again. These cybermen convert by nanotechnology. There were a lot of comparisons to the Dalek process of converting the dead to their duplicates. This is the same – the cloud was a nano-cloud.8 November 2014 at 23:40 #35072coly @coly
Hey everyone, I’m completely new here. I only signed up to say this, Orson Pink.
Danny ain’t dead. (In my opinion)
I’m guessing this is going to be the Doctors wish to Santa.
Loved the finale too.8 November 2014 at 23:41 #35073
The dead have already been burried, but they rise as cyber men, so we’re they burried as cyber men? Were they dug up?
As @phaseshift says the clouds were nano clouds – sort of anti-nice-tree-thingies – and it was spelt out that the tiniest part of cyberman can start conversion.
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