Death in Heaven

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    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    Did someone holler for a Mod? Oh, @pedant.

    Mods, stop indulging and deal with it.

    Fine. Your post has been deleted.

    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord


    So sorry to hear about your illness. Best wishes.

    ichabod @ichabod

    @arbutus   Yes, Buddhism has been subject to all sorts of abuse from the dippier members of the “New Age”, partly because a bunch of teachers came through in the last half of the 20th (and before, I think) while the New Age/Hippie Potpourri was in full swing, particularly in California, and got all mixed up together as people wandered from one “exotic” spiritual tradition to another looking for something that suited them (you should read the discussions of Native American spiritual tradition being co-opted and then sold to “seekers” in diluted, distorted, and sometimes dangerous forms all over the Southwest and other formerly Indian territories, and beyond.

    Buddhism though — in my (limited) experience, a much more complex interaction happened and continues to happen, mainly through considerable traffic between the US and Japan by people actually going to study Zen Buddhism in Japanese temples, monasteries, and schools and coming back to the US to teach bearing some pretty impressive credentials (and quite strict and tough practices).  At least one Japanese teacher established a now-famous monastery in Northern California (it’s the one Leonard Cohen spent 8 years studying in), and by all accounts this is no cherry-picking exploration looking for spiritual goodies to grab.

    So the Buddhist tradition that has flourished here seems to be a pretty rigorous and sturdy one, modeled exactly on the tradition as it exists in Japan.  The types of Buddhism that were carried to other SE Asian countries where they merged with local animist traditions, full of demons and spirits etc, haven’t done well here, as far as I know; US SBNR’s seem to take more to a discipline where you sit and meditate (or walk around and meditate), with or without a Ko-an to solve, than to the more colorful styles full of dances and festivals, formal studies of historical/intellectual content, and spells to ward off demons; I would imagine that Japanese practitioners of Zen Buddhism are undisturbed by US practice, while those in Thailand, for example, see Zen — in America or in Japan — as a distortion, or a mistaken derivative of their own belief systems.  But you’d have to ask them — a lot of them, since Buddhism has different branches and, presumably a range of reactions to American style Buddhism.  I don’t think it’s useful to tar that famous Buddhist monastery in N. California (whose Japanese founder died recently at the age of 102, I think after decades of teaching here) with the same brush I would  use on, say, Sedona, Arizona, a town that makes its living on its many forms of somewhat kaleidoscopic “spiritual” offerings.

    I also wouldn’t put down people who self-identify as SBNR as cherry-pickers.  I think a great majority of them now, well past the days of the Hippies, are sincere explorers of spiritual traditions who have found that institutionalized belief systems don’t make sense to them, and who go their own ways — and not all those ways lead to a “Nature is my god” position by any means.

    Anonymous @


    oh, thank you.

    Also @ichabod: yes indeed there is!

    @pedant  -fight the good fight.

    Kindest, puro.

    Anonymous @

    Thanks JimTheFish glad we have reached an understanding though I maintain that I was not being rude to any posters before. Anyway there is nothing to say here really as clearly you think what you think and I think what I think and that’s that no change is gonna happen in either of our opinions. PS Purofillion get better soon.


    Anonymous @

    @burrunjor thank you that is very kind.

    Kindest, puro.

    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod @arbutus If you are interested in Buddhism over on the “hoof” thread
    I will post a link to Ajahn Brahm. He is an Englishman who is the Abbott of a West
    Australian Monastery and a bit of a rock star, at least on YT. He’s also clever and funny .

    gilesgirl @charlottegiles

    I’m new to the forum, but became a doctor fan in the 1980s through PBS.
    At first I was not only mad about Danny dying, but confused since Orson is clearly Danny’s progeny. But then, that is making an assumption that Orson has to do with Clara. Since his great grandparent is not identified, there are other time travel options. What about Martha or Donna as the great grand parent? Do we know that Danny doesn’t already have a child, a son perhaps, that ends up with the child of Martha orDonna in the future? It still bothers me that Orson was not that flustered at the appearance of the doctor. If Donna remembered at an old age right before her death, they would have been great stories for you grand kids. Further, with the story of the being in midnight episode being told to you as a kid, you wouldn’t really believe it till you’ve time traveled to the end of the and had something knocking at you door in a supposedly dead universe.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Possibility one: Orson isn’t Danny’s descendent. He’s descended from another branch of the Pink family.

    Possibility two: your theory – he’s descended from Danny, but through a previous child, and the ‘time travelling great grandparent’ is another of the Doctor’s companions.

    Possibility three: Orson has something to do with ‘I never know where the faces come from.’ [Deep Breath]. His plotline importance isn’t that he’s a Pink, it’s that he has exactly the same face as a distant relative. Having the same face as someone else happens remarkably frequently within the Whoniverse. 😀

    But, for what might be the first time in-series, somebody has noticed. The Doctor noticed about his own face, and Clara noticed about Danny/Orson. Orson’s face, in fact, was a plot point.

    ‘I never know where the faces come from.’ Throwaway line to explain Peter Capaldi’s previous roles in Doctor Who/Torchwood, or a plot line that’s running through his tenure?

    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @charlottegiles:  As Danny was converted to a Cyberman, his DNA information might have been analyzed and uploaded to the Gallifreyan hard drive of Missy.

    And as the classic Arc of Infinity storyline showed, as have many storylines since, once one has that DNA information, many things are possible for creating / re-creating people.

    The thing is, as Time of the Doctor made abundantly clear, the Time Lords as we knew them in the classic series aren’t coming back.  Ever.  It is not possible as their return would start a new Time War.  My speculation is way back when it all began for the Time Lords, Rassilon looked too far into the void, into the future, and saw the Time Lords had ceased to exist.  So a backup plan was made involving Earth and humans to act as Time Lord surrogate bodies.



    Anonymous @

    Hi folks, I’ve been reading the recent discussions on the current whereabouts & status of Gallifrey and the Time Lords, and I had a few thoughts so I thought I’d pop in… bear with me.
    In Day of the Doctor, we obviously see that rather than use the Moment, the Doctor(s) manage to “freeze Gallifrey in a single moment in time”, like the paintings. This is an uncertain enough process that the Doctor doesn’t even know if it’s worked afterwards, and it seems as though it’s been done without any idea of exactly where Gallifrey would go, or how it could be accessed again. Let’s quickly look at the paintings, seeing as they’re continually brought up as a reference point. (Though presumably it’s not exactly the same process, only conceptually similar- or maybe Gallifrey is actually stuck in a painting somewhere, I wouldn’t put it past this show.)
    We know that despite the “single moment in time” description of the paintings, there is at least a certain window of time able to pass within them, as we saw the Doctors move through (and destroy a Dalek in) the Arcadia of the painting. The same is evidently true for Gallifrey, as we see in Time of the Doctor that time must pass for them, in order for them to be able to respond to the Doctor. Time of the Doctor also confirms that the ‘slice of time’ that Gallifrey inhabits is definitely outside of our universe/in its own universe.

    The Time Lords attempt to re-enter ‘our’ universe via one of the cracks. I haven’t actually seen the last half of season 5 (or most of the Smith era), but as I understand it the rebooted universe was healed of the cracks, so I’m not sure why there’s one remaining. The Doctor mentions that there’s still ‘scar tissue’ from the cracks- did the Time Lords re-open that scar to create the crack for this purpose? Was this crack really the last one (I don’t think the Doctor specifically says so), and why did it close- that is, if it closed at all (we saw them close it in the sky above Trenzalore, yes, but we had just seen them move it to there from the tower, they could’ve moved it again)- surely, seeing as they were waiting for it to be safe to come through, which seemed to mean no armada waiting above Trenzalore, which was about to occur? (See below) Presumably, seeing as we haven’t seen the Doctor return to an armada-free Trenzalore to free the Time Lords, the crack is indeed gone for some reason (Regeneration cycle closed it? Seems sketchy), and presumably it is the only one because the ‘Doctor Who?’ signal hasn’t been heard from elsewhere. (The fact that it is the oldest question in the universe, emanating since the beginning of the universe, raises the question of why all of the various civilisations turned up at Trenzalore at this particular point in time (prior to translation); if they were just curious they’d hardly have been lying in wait for all eternity.) Or, @jphamlore above suggests that the safety reference was not specifically to the armies above Trenzalore waiting to wipe them out (which seemed to me to be what’s spelt out in the episode) but in general; the Time Lords can never come back because war will inevitably begin with races who don’t want to see the Time war restart; or with the new Daleks hanging around. Which is a fair point; how do the Time Lords come back peacefully with reborn Daleks in existence? But I’m not sure that this is the end game, else a bigger deal would’ve been made of it in the episode, and the Doctor wouldn’t still be trying to find it at the end of season 8.
    Regardless, if the Doctor wants to find/communicate with with Gallifrey, as of TotD the one guaranteed link with the Time Lords seen so far is the crack in the universe. If it’s gone, can he interact with or locate the ‘scar tissue’? Can he break through that himself and open another crack, and if so would he?

    Series 8 brings up several things that jar with the above. The Master has travelled from Gallifrey to this universe. In Death of Heaven the Doctor believes that Gallifrey being in its original location is a possibility, despite it, to his knowledge, being in another universe. In Listen, Clara apparently is able to travel to Gallifrey in the Doctor’s past. Do these indicate that Gallifrey has returned to this universe or not? The Doctor may have believed that since the Master has returned, that it’s possible that Gallifrey has as well, and it could indeed be at its original location. Either it hasn’t returned and the Master inexplicably did what the entire civilisation of Time Lords could not, or it’s moved somewhere else. But if it has returned, surely, surely it would’ve been noticed long ago by the Doctor or someone else, or they would’ve contacted the Doctor, seeing as it was apparently so easy for the Master to do that and so much more in the meantime. I don’t buy it.
    People have been talking about Gallifrey no longer being time-locked, given the conclusion of Listen. I suppose that depends on how the ‘freezing in a moment of time’ thing worked, and how the time lock originally worked. Did moving Gallifrey out of the universe free it from the time lock on the Time War? Did they not actually freeze that moment of Gallifrey, with a little a bit of time to manoeuvre or something as above, but rather did they save Gallifrey’s entire existence in all four dimensions? Okay, if it’s not time-locked, wouldn’t it have to be returned to this universe to travel to it? Maybe not. We’ve seen that travel to other universes is possible and it was common in the days of the Time Lords; the Doctor had turned the safeguards off, maybe the Time Lords could open the passageways again from their own universe, allowing the TARDIS to see it- and they’re still not coming through because they still don’t know if it’s safe, as with the crack above. Maybe Missy came through alone because she doesn’t care for such things as safety, and she’s a renegade?

    But that almost makes it too easy. All that’s required for the Doctor to find Gallifrey is for him to check the logs, or for Clara to pipe up, or even for him to connect telepathically as a method of searching and let the TARDIS take him there. Even if there’s plot to go with regards to Daleks roaming about and calling some kind of truce on the war, that’s not what it’s been built up to be. But that’s all I’ve got.

    Also, with regards to Twelve’s role in Day of the Doctor, Eleven must’ve known he was there, because Eleven was coodinating the Doctors (equidistant points around the globe, etc), being the one who had longest to think about the plan- assuming the calculations were only completed by Twelve and he was there for that purpose. UNLESS, even though Eleven wouldn’t remember seeing/interacting with Twelve, it’s possible that the results were sent as a data transmission, not by person-to-person interaction, and so he could think it was a future version of his own incarnation instead. Or, Twelve could’ve have been undertaking a different mission of some kind relating the current plot of bringing back the Time Lords, but who knows how that would tie in.
    Hopefully something in there that is reasonable or helpful!

    ichabod @ichabod


    The thing is, as Time of the Doctor made abundantly clear, the Time Lords as we knew them in the classic series aren’t coming back. Ever. It is not possible as their return would start a new Time War. 

    So CapDoc isn’t guilty of destroying his own planet and people any more — having found a way to *not* use The Moment instead of using it — but in doing so he’s instead mislaid them in a gigantic way.  And whatever barrier kept them safe (and frozen) in their pocket universe, with nothing to do but “have hope”, is now permeable to some extent (the TL’s did grant a new regen cycle to the Doctor, at Clara’s behest, so that’s a two-way exchange between ourspace and the pocket place.

    Wasn’t the pocket universe designed to contain them in an inactive state, while at the same time deflecting incursions against them by the Daleks et al?  What enabled the supposedly isolated TLs on Gallifrey to interact with Clara and the Doctor in ourspace?  What do the TLs need the Doctor alive for anyway, if they can be forcefully active in our universe from where he put them?

    More than that, what does he need *them* for?  “I just wanna go home”?  It’s not as if he has a loving family, a little kingdom, and a faithful dog waiting for him there.  I’ve just never found the whole Gallifrey connection that convincing, I guess, so CapDoc being unable to figure out what corner he tossed G. into and wanting desperately to find it again doesn’t really work for me as a compelling motive.  I don’t see a good reason, in terms of fictional structure, to mess with Gallifrey at all any more — or at least not for a really long time.  So I sort of *hope* they can’t return.  I think I like the Doctor better as Ishi, the Last of his Tribe, than as Odysseus, homebound Lord of Ithaca.

    Tindalos2013 @tindalos2013

    I quite enjoyed the build up throughout the episodes to the final identity of Missy. Gomez bought to the the role the kind of zany but deadly antic behavior that John Simm portrayed. If I understand correctly was the Nethersphere inside her TARDIS the whole time. And I have a theory that Missy is an earlier incarnation before the events of Utopia.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Me, I prefer Odysseus. 😉

    What enabled the supposedly isolated TLs on Gallifrey to interact with Clara and the Doctor in ourspace? What do the TLs need the Doctor alive for anyway, if they can be forcefully active in our universe from where he put them?

    ::cough:: calculations on a blackboard ::cough::

    My theory, anyways. The Capaldi Doctor still has to get to the 50th. As to why the Time Lords need him; they need him to tell them that it’s safe to come back. Yes, they can send energy through, messages through. But if they can see through, then what they can see is half the universe gathered about Trenzalore. With weapons. Not exactly reassuring…

    I would say that if Gallifrey had never been ‘missing presumed destroyed’, the Doctor (from Eccleston to Capaldi) would never have given a flying fig about going home. It’s the after effects of thinking he’s killed them all, that he’s the last of his kind, that he is alone in the universe.

    He wants to go home. It’s not enough to be told Gallifrey survived; he wants to go home and see that it survived. He wants to talk to other Gallifreyans (ones who aren’t bananas). He wants to argue about politics with people who know that the ‘Prydonian Chapter’ isn’t something in J.K. Rowling’s latest novel. He wants, most desperately wants, to be told he did the right thing by the people he did it to. To do all that, he has to go home. And until he does, the Time War isn’t really over, not for him.

    Once he’s done all that, he’ll very probably set off on his travels again. Or maybe not, maybe the grown-up Doctor realises that if there’s still a mess, it’s his job to stay and help fix it. Maybe there’ll be a series of stories set on Gallifrey instead of Earth, with side trips to other worlds.

    But that’s up to future producers. 😉

    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip   Ha, well, good; my disposition isn’t that cheerful these days, and I don’t recommend it to anyone else.

    As for the calculations — damn it, *this* is why I generally stay far, far away from time travel (in my own work, anyway, and often in the SF of others): I just can’t keep all these fixed points + all the moving ones in my perspective at the same time.  The 50th is still in everybody’s future, then?  Sheesh.  Give me a break . . .

    But I like the rest of your argument very much; you win, and thanks for a sensible explanation of this determined homeward course of his that also makes sense emotionally.

    Anonymous @

    Way late in this convo but oh well …


    Maniacal Mary Poppins. Wow. Yes.

    As 10 says OH YES!

    So I just watched this episode tonight and just finished this season this week don’t ask looooooong story but I was pretty ok … albeit shocked a bit … until CYBER BRIG SAVES HIS DAUGHTER and then my jaw was dropped my eyes wide and filling with tears and weird little noises coming out of my mouth …. Then the salute … Oy right in the feels.  Then Danny sending the boy back and the doctors comment about never trusting a hug and at this point I’m realizing I should have retrieved the box of tissues BEFORE I was blinded by tears …. Not sure how I feel about all of this actually. Processing.  Processing. (Speaking of processing that flying thru the air with the key thing was fantastic but reminded me of Star Trek into darkness and Kirk and khan in space….but anyway….)

    Can’t speak.  Cyber Brig. Nuff said.

    IndigoMoose @indigomoose

    I still can’t accept Missy as a regeneration of The Master. I assert that there is a much better story. The Master deserves to stay dead; there are many other Time Lords to resurect.

    So, here is my theory (which still works in-spite of the reveal in Dark Waters): Missy is a regeneration of Romana. Romana, with her socio-political ties to E-space, had ways to escape the Time War. She was Lady Romana, then Madam President, then demoted to who knows what when Rassilon was given reign. Her role in the Time War is undefined. K-9 always reffered to Romana as ‘Mistress,’ which makes the nick-name Missy easily explained. War changes people, and regeneration changes Gallifreyans – so this intriguing personality displayed by Missy is better explained as a never before seen side of Romana rather than a feminine version of the Master.




    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @indigomoose — and presumably heads off the ‘threat’ of the Doctor regenerating as a woman in the future. Am I right?

    IndigoMoose @indigomoose

    I think it would be fun to see the Doctor as a female – or more androgenous. I find androgenous characters fun. I just really, really liked how the Master was treated and ended with John Simm. Also, I really miss Romana. Doctor Who has done very little with companions turning into enemies.

    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @indigomoose and @jimthefish

    I’d also like to see John Simm’s Master again – in fact, I’d like a three-way between Sir Derek Jacobi, Michelle Gomez and Mr Simm.

    Hmmm… not sure that came out the way I wanted. Or, given both the Simm Master and Missy’s definite S&M tendencies, maybe it did. 😉

    Regarding indigomoose’s bonkers theory that Missy is actually Romana – firstly she teases the Doctor with the fact that he knows her, then promptly proceeds to lie about who she really is? Whereas if Missy is the Master, it actually fits into his/her last seen action. The Simm Master was last seen destroying the Time Lords and saving the Doctor. Missy, we find, put Clara on board the TARDIS. And Clara is the girl ‘born to save the Doctor’.

    As the Simm Master exits, so Missy enters. Both trying to save the Doctor’s life. In their own, inimitable fashion, of course. 😈

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    While I think we probably have to accept that Missy actually is the Master, I quite like your bonkers theory as a bonker theory! I remember at the beginning of the second season of Sherlock that many people did not want to believe that Mycroft wasn’t actually Moriarty, as the clues dropped in Season 1 seemed to point that way. And there were good bonkers theories doing the rounds that put up a case for Mycroft as Moriarty. I see your Missy as Romana theory along the same lines. And a theory more insane than what’s actually happening does fit the ambit of this site!

    IndigoMoose @indigomoose

    @bluesqueakpip and @jimthefish

    I know that Missy has to be the Master because the TV show said so. My theory makes no sense given the reveal, and it wouldn’t make sense for Romana to lie about who she is. Clearly, my idea is no longer a viable theory, just head cannon.

    Often, I put the volume on low and pretend the subtitles are slightly incorrect. My idea changes none of the main action, and it makes me happy because I get to watch a true Time Lady, not a Time Lord in “female form.”

    The tag-line of this site is “Theories even more insane than what’s actually happening,” and I feel that’s what I just put forth.

    I have other wild ideas about Doctor Who. I’m looking for the right place to air them. Where is it?

    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    I must admit that I quite like the Romana theory and she’s definitely one of the companions who could fit into the show as it is now — I can actually see Lalla Ward as she is now and Peter Capaldi being quite a good fit.

    And @indigomoose, it’s definitely a bonkers enough theory to fit in quite nicely here. Keep ’em coming.

    lisa @lisa

    @indigomoose @jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave I like the Romana
    concept and have even entertained this idea for a moment before we knew who Missy was
    but I still cant reconcile this idea because Missy likes to kill people for fun
    and entertainment purposes. That’s not how I see Romana. But as we all know
    the personalities do change somewhat with the new regenerations.
    I suppose that Romana could be using a chameleon arch to become Missy too? Also, still
    wondering if Missy regenerated or if she is a download? Need new episodes now!!! 🙂

    Arbutus @arbutus

    @indigomoose     Welcome to the Forum. Love both your username and your bonkers theory. I also thank you for my laugh of the day at the phrase “head cannon”, which, spelt that way, brought an inevitable picture to my mind.  🙂

    janetteB @janetteb

    This is possibly more relevant to Listen as it involves the Toy Soldier which I have been obsessing about but it also involves Missy so I will post here. This is really a side thing. I expect we will never hear mention of the toy soldier again. Indeed I have had so much fun working out a rationale for it that I am not sure I want the series to stomp all over my illusions. (ie come up with an infinitely superior story to explain the movement of the toy soldier) Given the nature of the Listen story and so much of Moffat’s writing I was determined that the toy in question should become a paradox. Orson claims it belonged to a time travelling ancestor. It was assumed that was Clara but it seems evident that that is not so. I think we can now safely assume that Clara is not pregnant at the end of this story and Orson is unlikely to be her descendent.

    I recently thought that maybe Danny was planted in the orphanage by Missy. That would account for his lack of family as referenced by Seb. She took him from the future. He is Orson’s twin brother. He was a trap for Clara eventually leading her and the Doctor to the Nethersphere and to Missy. Missy also left the toy soldier at the orphanage which she had stolen from the Doctor when they were children. When Danny dies without a will his estate, what there is of it, goes to company run by Missy and she re acquires the toy. It then passes down through the generations to Orson. Maybe Orson and Danny are descended from Missy or the Master who after all did spend rather a lot of time on earth solving the question of the time travelling ancestor. (I liked the idea that they were descended from one of the Doctor’s companions but could not work out how the toy got from Danny to Orson if that was the case. I also toyed with the idea that they were grandchildren of Susan hence Orson’s confusion as to whether it was his grand or great grandparent who was the time traveller it being both.)

    Anyway have had fun toying with theories re’ the toy irrelevant though it may be,,



    Anonymous @


    “I also toyed with the idea that they were grandchildren of Susan hence Orson’s confusion as to whether it was his grand or great grandparent who was the time traveller it being both.)

    Anyway have had fun toying with theories re’ the toy….”

    Toying? Not at all! I, personally love it as it explains how the toy ‘moved about’ and who, ultimately Danny was. So Missy played with Clara perfectly: first as the woman who gave her the Doctor’s number and second finding a love match for Clara so perfect that she’d fall for it – possibly engineering Dan’s early death so the Doctor and Clara would find themselves in ‘Dark Water’. Even the words ‘dark water’ are great; all those metaphors: ‘up the creek without a paddle’, ‘water up to our ears’, ‘water over our heads’; ‘I’m drowning’, ‘jump in the lake’, ‘black water’ and, my parents’ personal fav: “go jump in the bath and stick your head under the tap!”

    Great work janetteB.

    janetteB @janetteb

    Thanks @Purofilion. I am happy to have finally devised a theory that takes the toy full circle and all thanks to Missy. I am certain that she was responsible for Danny’s rather random death. Will be interesting to see if Moffat does ever resolve the Danny/Orson mystery. He does often keep story threads going over one or more series.




    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb   That is a wonderfully convoluted and bonkers theory, but I am not sure that it works, since there is no way, legally, that Missy could have got her mitts on Danny’s belongings, whether or not he died intestate.  If he had died intestate, the rule in England is that his estate would have gone to his next of kin, however remote, and I know from personal experience that they go to a great deal of trouble to trace next of kin, down to cousins at several removes.  If no next of kin can be traced, then I think the estate of the deceased goes to the state.  If he had made a will – and as a serving soldier in a war zone he almost certainly would have done, even if he had not updated it since – he couldn’t have left it to 3W because he did not know about it prior to his death.

    The fact that he was in a children’s home as a young boy does not necessarily mean that he was an orphan or, if he was, that he had no living relatives.  In fact, in that awkward first date he says that he has been occupied with ‘family stuff’.  As @bluesqueakpip pointed out early on in the discussion of Listen, it is even possible that he had a child by a previous relationship.  Orson was vague about the time travelling ancestor, and he could be descended from a brother or cousin, if not directly from Danny.

    It may be a more boring explanation, but I think that the trajectory of the soldier through time can be explained as another, relatively straightforward closed Moffat loop.

    The first question is, how did the soldier get into the toy box.  It isn’t stated explicitly that it was there already, before Clara and the Doctor arrived in Rupert/Danny’s room, so either of them could have slipped it in.  Danny keeps it as a talisman and, after his death, it is handed down in his family, ending up with Orson; and Orson, for whatever reason, gives it to Clara. Clara then gives it to the young Doctor in the barn, and the Doctor keeps it as a talisman through his many lives.  Eventually, either Clara finds it lying apparently forgotten in a drawer or a cupboard in the Tardis and picks it up as a curiosity, to be produced later when she is trying to reassure Rupert/Danny, or the Doctor had it in his pocket all along and put it into the toy box when he arrived in the room unnoticed,  while Clara was under the bed or while she and Rupert/Danny were preoccupied with the thing under the blanket.  Either is feasible.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @mudlark  I think he was lying when he mentioned family. It was a clumsy excuse for not having organised the date with Clara earlier probably because he was too nervous. Seb does remark upon the difficulty in trying to locate any family after Danny’s death.

    However rule 1 is  I am always wrong so whatever theory I come up with is going to be incorrect. It does not spoil the fun of trying however. 🙂 And if the Orson/toy soldier riddle is never explained then I will happily cling to my own explanation. I love the open nature of Moffat’s writing, allowing for individual interpretations. Sometimes it is nice to have mysteries that are never resolved or at least not for a series or two.





    ichabod @ichabod

    @mudlark — I like that too — the open-endedness of themes and details.  Of course that very thing drives the more — ah — more compulsively detail-oriented fans bats and makes them scream that (once again!) the show has been *ruined* by the dastardly dreadful awful horrible show runner-writer MOFFAT!!!!!


    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip


    Seb does remark upon the difficulty in trying to locate any family after Danny’s death.

    Which is interesting in itself. So Danny’s in a Children’s Home in the 1990’s – but in 2014 there are NO dead grandparents, parents etc. to greet him in the Nethersphere?

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb  @bluesqueakpip     I have only just started my pre-9th season re-watch of last season’s episodes, and had forgotten Seb’s remark.

    So either Missy was less efficient than she claimed in harvesting the minds of the dead and some escaped her net, or Danny was a foundling, parents unknown.  If the latter, then either a) you were right, Bluesqueakpip,  in your original suggestion that Danny had a son by a previous relationship, and Orson was descended from that son,  or b) perhaps Orson is, in fact Danny himself, mind retrieved from the matrix data slice and re-embodied, but perhaps with mind and memory a bit scrambled, in which case Danny and Orson are a kind of loop in themselves; or c) Danny is retrieved from the matrix data slice and re-embodied, and then goes on to have a child from whom Orson is descended (which would explain how Orson knew about the time travelling)

    I’m  afraid I still can’t quite bring myself to believe that Rupert/Danny’s presence in the children’s home, his ending up at Coal Hill School and his meeting and subsequent relationship with Clara were all the direct result of manipulation by Missy: there are too many variables with too many possible outcomes, and it would all have required a positively supernatural degree of foresight, even for a Time Lord obsessed with the Doctor and stalking him.  It was enough that she arranged for Clara to meet the Doctor.

    All is good, though, when it comes to bonkers theorising.  I tend automatically to reach for Occam’s razor, which is probably why I am not much good at it    🙂

    Anonymous @

    Building on the TL Clara theory, I think Danny is the Impossible Boy!! He was born to save the Clara Doc and he jumped into Clara’s time stream at some time.

    Orson Pink is a Pink-acle… Ors-acle… Or-spinkle…? 😀

    Arbutus @arbutus

    I watched the two-parter in one go this time, and as with part one, I find that I don’t have much new to say about. Except that I do like Kate Stewart. I think that Jemma Redgrave must be deliberately channelling the Brigadier as she is absolutely believable as his daughter– same calm control and steady humour.

    It also occurred to me, listening to how much more Scottish Missy sounds here than in the brief glimpses we saw earlier in the series, that perhaps her comment in Deep Breath about the Doctor’s accent– “I think I’ll keep it”– was meant to reference her own accent, as in “I like it. I think I’ll be Scottish, too!”

    But seriously, what a weeper. The Doctor, Danny, and Clara at the end, nonstop tear action. I found it all very affecting, I must say. And the ending, too, a wonderfully understated farewell, and then the TARDIS disappears in the midst of the crowd, Clara watching, and then she turns and makes her way down the street. Possibly the nicest Doctor-Companion parting of the AG series.

    And next– Christmas.  🙂

    Missy @missy

    I re-watched this last night, then went on to to view the specials. Right at the end, Peter Capaldi gives reasons why you should watch series 8.  I quote:

    “You should watch if you want to nurture your heart and soul, and you want to be scared.”

    That about sums it up methinks?


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Death in Heaven

    Is the Moff tweaking the fans with Clara’s confident “I’m the Doctor”? She’s certainly got a nerve. … and then Jenna Coleman appears before Peter Capaldi in the titles – and I’ll swear that’s Jenna’s eyes in the sequence. Confirmed, the Moff is tugging our chain.

    Cybermen can fly! (Well, Daleks now can, so why wouldn’t Cybermen?) And they can do some mystical cloud-seeding of graveyards. Okay, for some reason I’ll wear that (where I wouldn’t wear the forests suddenly growing). Because, I guess, alien tech.

    The Doctor seems unimpressed by his new rank of President of Earth. To Missy: “Remember all those years when you wanted to rule the world? Piece of cake.” I’m sure the irony, that his new rank is due to Missy’s scheming, is not lost on her.

    And what a pleasure it is to see Osgood (well, one of them) again. And the Doctor (a.k.a. President of Earth) implicitly offers her a trip in the Tardis – so naturally Missy promptly kills her. I must admit I didn’t see that coming. Missy is truly a psychopath.

    And it was, as long suspected, Missy who was ‘the woman in the shop’ that gave Clara the Doctor’s number. Who put the Doc and Clara together because she think’s they’re bad for each other (or something like that). I think she badly misjudged the situation.

    But then, she created the whole cyber army as – a present for the Doctor? Definitely deranged. But the whole complex dynamic of the scene in the graveyard with Clara, Danny, Missy and the Doctor is masterfully arranged. Finally Danny takes command of the Cyber army and defeats Missy’s plans. But we’re not finished yet – Clara is quite prepared to use Missy’s lethal device on her. Does anyone think she wouldn’t? So the Doctor intervenes – and is saved from having to do it by Cyberman Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart, who the Doctor finally salutes (to the joy of old-Who fans).

    And then we have a marvellously sad scene in the cafe at the end, where both the Doctor and Clara desperately need each other but, totally unselfishly, pretend they’ve found their own separate destinations – for each other’s sake. Lying, with the best of motives, but fatally misguided. An irony overload which borders on tragedy. It’s so sad, and I’m muttering at the screen “tell him! *tell* him!” As Santa says irritably at the end, this won’t do at all.

    One of the best series finales we’ve seen, I think.

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