General Open Thread – TV Shows (2)

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  • #38475
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    A continuation of the General TV thread, which was getting dangerously close to its limit. (I blame the vampire slayers myself).

    The previous thread can be found here:

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/general-open-thread-tv-shows/

    #38480
    Avatar of ichabodichabod @ichabod

    Um — anybody have thoughts about this news, and the UK shows people love?

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/02/bbc-production-top-shows-studios-division-doctor-who?CMP=share_btn_tw

    From the comments below, it seems to be seriously problematic, and another victory for the selfish and destructive economics of the Right — ?

    #38481
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @ichabod — hmm, that’s interesting. Will need to take a more detailed look when I’ve got a moment. But it looks and sounds suspiciously like privatisation by the back door to me….

    #38487
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Ichabod @Jimthefish

    Yes, a not untypical approach and certainly an unfortunately predictable situation. I suggest one ‘inkym***’ in the comments responded in the ‘expected’ way about ‘healthy’ competition, economics and the Darwinian survival of the fittest. A little like co-opting health care into Darwinian theories.

    It’s funny how selling off public assets is, in Oz, considered a good proposition by 70% of people who don’t understand the purpose of taxes; would like taxes reduced until the only thing they’re good for is using the ‘bucket of money’ to ensure programs steer away from bedroom scenes involving same sex partners; and indeed use legislation -and said funds – to focus on ‘bedroom communities’ in regional Tasmania.

    Anyway, straying way off topic -but many of these right wing ‘ideas’ are considered  important to univ students who join conservative groups demanding more reality TV shows (with quite vulgar concepts) lower taxes, a state budget in the black at all costs and ‘user pays’ systems. They actually want higher univ fees! Back to the old aristocratic concept -the more expensive it is –  the more status it claims.

    A sorry world at times.  Puro.

    #38488
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish

    back to other topic -watching s3 of Buffy again and realizing just how wonderful those middle block of eps really are. Homecoming was OK but from then on, Band Candy to Helpless are terrific.

    As much as I adored Tara (and I really like the development of that relationship on screen), I enjoy Seth Green’s contribution more. Watching those under-played & subtle scenes where Willow invites Oz over for pre-Christmas/Hanukkah smoochies are great:

    Oz stands up and Will says: “oh, don’t leave

    Oz: “not leaving, just standing up; a dramatic gesture.

    Will stands up too and then Oz: “we should sit down now”. I just liked the tonal colour and variation of the two characters together. Even up against brash Xander in Gingerbread, where he says: “guys, let us in, we want to be part of the hate” and Oz responds to the fellas, with, “just so we’re clear, you know you guys are nuts right?” Both tear off  to find another rescue point near the witchy bonfire.

    It’s great dialogue but more importantly it’s a clear distinction in character interplay and I really like that.

    Again, I do love Tara -in case people think I’m a) homophobic or plain uncomfortable or b) dislike Amber Benson  – also her voice in OMWF in S6 is possibly the best of the lot.

    Kindest, puro.

    #38490
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — yes, they’re fine episodes. Which is why s3 always wins the best Buffy season prize for me. Oz was great and I believe the plan was to have brought him back for s6 of Angel had it actually come about.

    I love Band Candy. It’s definitely one of my favourite episodes. Great script and it’s always great when Armin Shimmerman gets something to work with and this was his best episode as Snyder, I think. And I do like the Ethan Rayne episodes. I think it’s a shame that they allowed the Ethan/Ripper thread to slip away as I always enjoyed it and thought it had great potential. As I’ve said before, a more interesting thread for Giles in s4 might have been a more prolonged return of Ethan and him Giles being so directionless that he comes under Ethan’s spell again. A kind of mid-life crisis with magic. And Kristine Sutherland should receive kudos for her work with ASH in the ep. They truly are the delinquent teens from hell.

    Helpless too is wonderful. It’s the first indication, I think, that we get that the Watchers’ Council is not all fluffy and nice and well-meaning and Harris Yulin as Quentin is great. Plus it has the great Jeff Kober as Kralig who for my money is one of the most memorable of the Buffy vamps and sells unrepentant evil far better than David Boreanaz does as Angelus (in Buffy anyway). Rack in s5 was not the most subtle character but I forgive him a lot because he’s being played with maximum cool by Kober.

    I was reminded a lot of just how great an episode Helpless is when I was watching the s4 Angel episode Spin The Bottle, which is basically Helpless crossed with Tabula Rasa, with an Angel riff added. It’s one to look forward to.

    #38492
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    indeed, Snyder, the one you love to hate. Yes, I remember you mentioning Rack in S6 and now only back in S3 do I see the connection – the same actor!

    I’m sure Marsters is an intelligent man, but in one panel gig he mentioned the ep: “Taboola Rasuu”

    An audience member politely corrected him: a worry, had he never heard the concept tabula rasa?

    #38493
    Avatar of BluesqueakpipBluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purofilion

    James Marsters came up through the Conservatoire route rather than via the university route, so it’s quite possible he never had heard the Latin term – except in its English translation of ‘a clean slate’.

    #38494
    Avatar of janetteBjanetteB @janetteb

    @Purofilion It is a mistake common to right wing thinking that Darwinian survival of the fittest means survival of the toughest and most selfish. In fact it refers to fitness to survive which often favours the most social. After all humans didn’t get to be the dominant species on the planet by backstabbing each other. We developed as social animals, who gained strength through altruistic behaviour. And now it seems we are going down the “gurgler” because the selfish have taken over. Still you Queenslanders gave us all hope last month. :-) Things can get better, they can.. (O so I keep telling myself)

    Also sorry for not responding to your question re’ the 80s TV series I mentioned earlier. Been struggling to keep up with posts in the last couple of days. The series was ‘A Timeless Land.” Very hard to get hold of now. I once passed up the opportunity to buy the DVDs at the ABC shop and regret it deeply. It was an adaptation of the Timeless Land trilogy by Australian writer Eleanor Dark. If you have an interest in Oz history then I thoroughly recommend them. Eleanor Dark wrote before Manning Clark put Australian History on the curriculum and so had to do all her own research, a ten year task.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #38496
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JanetteB  Timeless Land -I think I saw that! I think I had  a crush on one of the actors -a con, possibly an ex-con!

    Typical: I was about 15. Unless it came out later and I’m confusing the show with another.

    Yes, Darwin. I’m a bit of a dick about those arguments and shouldn’t use incorrect concepts particularly when I’ve read some article and then go all postal!

    @Bluesqueakpip also, I’m being a bit snobby with the tabula rasa concept and pronunciation. After all, I cannot ‘do’ maths, really, at all  -it’s a fairly important skill but I do have 10 fingers.

    I remember seeing an interview before pedant said ‘don’t go looking at the internet’ whereby Marsters explained how he despised Juillard -they kicked him out? Or maybe it’s Romantic and good press to say this. Having said that, I was at Juillard for a winter programme and pretty much everyone was a musical/dramatic clever ‘freak’. The teachers were mostly cool although some were stoned quite a lot of the time.

    Possibly due to the hyperactivity of the students.

    #38499
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    On the whole Broadchurch debate, it’s probably only fair to point out Chris Chibnall’s defence of the legal scenes on the Graun here.

    Personally, the first thing I’d have said to him would be to rewrite the hysterical, overheated intro. And the fact that he doesn’t know the difference between ‘alternate’ and ‘alternative’ doesn’t exactly inspire confidence either.

    Nor does his argument particularly convince, boiling down to ‘artistic licence, so there’.

    #38503
    Avatar of ichabodichabod @ichabod

    @JimTheFish  — “Artistic license” is only a good excuse *when it works*.  When people just fall about hooting with scornful laughter, I think maybe that’s a good indication that “artistic license” just isn’t going to fly this time.

    On the other hand, for some viewers it clearly *did* work as artistic license.  So . . . ?  Ah, the critic’s dilemma . . . what makes *my* judgment superior to all those other peoples’ judgment?

    #38505
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Bluesqueakpip @pedant @scaryB

    I do find that young Buff’s ‘I’m thick’ routine is getting on my nerves. @JimTheFish mentioned that cute Buffy in S2-3 isn’t so cute in S7 when she simply doesn’t know things. My problem on second re-watch is the pouting Buffy -right thru S3 in to the beginning of S4. Freshman I like -but to a point  as there’s some predictable action and things tend to bog down in the middle portion of the episode.

    Xander says “up for some Reconnaissance?” Buffy looks unnerved with “where we sculpt and paint n’ stuff?”

    I mean, come on, you’d know Recon, f’sure. It was a cute place to place a funny line n’all but it didn’t track well. It’s in this episode that I begin to foresee the problems of S4 and the fact that the tight unit of Giles, Willow and Oz will be displaced with Riley and his ‘aw shucks’ routine. Still love S3 -ironically for all the Spuffy stuff, I didn’t miss Spike at all in S3 -he was in one episode? Sure, he stole the scene like Nick Brendon does thru most of those first 3 seasons but it was a superb season, nonetheless. (I do like Sunday as a baddie -it was a slightly underplayed menace which worked very well. Glory was all “I’m totally mad ass crazy” and that wore me out).

    One problem with S5 is Dawn -annoying and a one-track actress -at least in this. Lots of shrugging, hopping up and stomping off. Could it have benefitted with a different actor and was she just eye-candy?

    Anyway, I really have to stop commenting on this -I’ve done it all once and you had to ‘listen’ to it the first time!

    Still, leave will be over soon so no time for telly :(

    Must re-watch some S8 Who in prep for the new series……

    #38508
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion —

    No need to apologise. I love me some Buffy chat.

    But am I to take it that Angel isn’t floating your boat?

    #38509
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    Oh, no, Absolutely not. I’ve pushed the boat out (to quote the Doctor) but I’m rowin’ slow. Boy Ilion wants to watch it with me but he’s had RL -so, totally knackered. The nightly TV watch has been reduced to 15 mins. But bugger it, I will get ahead and watch it meself.

    Interested to see what will happen to the once likeable Lindsay (likeable is too much praise) and to the Evil Firm -and ultimately to Angel -I’m half way thru S2 which is dreadfully slow of me.

    I put it down to maximum pedal (or hyper drive, or, very fast boats) on Buffy.

     

    #38694
    Avatar of ScaryBScaryB @scaryb
    #38696
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @scaryb — Radio Times did a near-identical piece yesterday too. How can Buffy be 18 years old?? I’m getting so old. Waaah.

    #38902
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    Good grief! what happened to Wes? He’s gone all Bruce Lee/Jack Nicholson!!

    And Cordelia discussing shoes with Arch enemy: “he’s widened the heal, made an open toe but it won’t work in pink….”

    Creepy Wes “I don’t run away like a girl. I see things through…”

    And Billy, what a Big Bad…

    #38903
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    *that would be ‘heel’ thpelling

    #38904
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — that line of Wes’s is going to have call-backs later on in the season. But you’re definitely looking at a character in evolution with Wes this season. And it ain’t all going to be good.

    Billy’s a great episode. Compare Gunn, who has already has a deeper, instinctual understanding of the darker side of his masculinity as opposed to Wes’s uber-repression and as a consequence is better able to deal with Billy’s influence.

    It’s one of the things I like about Angel, that it can look it some pretty heavy stuff like domestic abuse and latent misogyny and filter it through a fantasy lens. Buffy only really went there in Ted and it quickly glossed over that angle by making Ted a stuck in the 50s robot. Angel as a show is more willing to look the subject in the eye, even though it makes pretty everyone less than comfortable.

    #39074
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Just wondering if anyone’s been watching Grimm? I’ve just started dipping into it, largely because I’m jonesing for something similar after having finished the mammoth Buffy/Angel rewatch. It seems to have a nice mashing-up of fairytale and crime procedural but I’m wondering if it’s worth sticking with.

    Talking of which, how’s the Angel watch going, @purofilion?

    #39081
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @jimthefish

    not going well, Jim, not at all. The telly lives in upstairs bedroom. Upstairs bedroom’s Air Con conked out. Determined to find out just how hot that room is in the middle of the day without  Air Con, we tested it as 54 degrees Celsius and 29 degrees over night in the past week! Whoa!  The walls are hot and as the stereo and other equipment lives up there, I generally keep the A/C on most of the time except for perhaps 3 months during the “Winter”

    So, all of us sleeping, like a camping trip downstairs, until the magic pumpkin hour of midday tomorrow and then, with A/C restored, dammit, Angel will be on…S3 (ep 6) to the end! Can’t wait. I’ve missed telly. I could have watched it on the lap top-but no, spoils the effects.

    Kindest, puro.

    #39084
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — sounds cosy, if a little sweaty. Here we’re constantly blasted by winds from the Irish Sea, even on a good day.

    But not meaning to rush you or anything. In your own time and all that. But I must admit I’m really on tenterhooks to hear your opinions of s5 of Angel, which I love as much for how it informs the Buffy mythology as it does the Angel one.

    #39089
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish Buffeted by cold winds is not good. Not good at all.

    As my (unexpected) leave is contiguous with our Easter break, I expect to move thru Angel S3-5 in relatively short order. Now, it’s not as if it’s finished at that! I’ll be returning to a re-watch of Buffy s7 to make those comparisons: interesting to see how the time lapse (Angel s5 and Buffy 7) will have added to the Buffyverse – created different distinctions, blurred the hue, as it were. I recall Capt Forehead made his walk on role in Buffy S7  – passing on the precious metal but abstaining from mentioning what I imagine is a new relationship in his own kingdom of LA -all the while a little envious of Buffy’s  mysterious interactions with, and feelings, for,  Spike.

    #39090
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish ‘blasted’ not buffeted. I was reminiscing unconsciously of the songs and music of one Jimmy Buffet -either one to love or disdain.

    #39094
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — yes, buffeted is probably the better word. Still bloody cold though.

    Yes, Angel s3 pretty much stands alone from Buffy, apart from the already established central characters but both s4 and s5 have significant overlaps, with s5, because it comes after Buffy s7, also serving as a ‘sequel’ of sorts, or at least filling in many ‘what happened next’ moments for Buffy and the Scoobies. Certainly the triangle between Buffy, Angel and Spike and the long-standing resentments between Spike and Angel get a lot of attention.

    #39117
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @ScaryB @JimTheFish @JanetteB @Ichabod @Bluesqueakpip

    Has anyone been watching the weird Fortitude, a combined British and Scandinavian /European series?

    I frankly can’t make head nor tail of the thing. Initially attracted to Eccleston’s part and Jessica Raine’s, I thought, “ooh, a mystery in the claustrophobic climate of a fictitious arctic village”.

    Turns out Dumbledore (Gambon) swoops in, claims Voldemort’s been resurrected and needs  the help of a local cigar -man shaman (Harry Potter) in order to stop the now young Voldemort from killing and eating his victims (a poor child diagnosed with polio and frostbite who left his home mid-fever whilst mum was at parent teacher night and dad had stepped out for coital comfort from doe-eyed hotelier).

    Seems Darren Boyd ( generally a comedian) has left his comedy tricks at home and appears more terrifying that the local wild life as he’s  feeding a large young woman to death with soup and icecream -whilst shagging her. Is this arctic porn?

    I’ve tried to read (the over-wordy) Den of Geek but their reviews, crocheted master works of metaphor and imagery are totally beyond puro’s simple parlance!

    Turns out Eccleston’s hardly in it (which reason becomes immediately obvious) and Raine is usually only crying, yelling or stomping off into the night without a muffler-thing (excuse me, being from QLD, I know little terminology for warm clothing other than: hat, coat, scarf)

    Bursting into flames, puro

    #39125
    Avatar of ichabodichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion   Yep, been watching, on and off.  It Is Very Slow.  Everybody is sort of nuts (they do go out of their way to say that nobody goes to live in Ice Hell without pretty good reason to be running from something, so . . . ).  There’s a dead but very small mammoth that might have contaminated some kids; somebody’s arm — just the arm — handcuffed to an outdoor timber frame for — something, hanging game?  Some guy we never met called Pettigrew got shot/ando/or eaten by a polar bear.  Too damn much is going on, and we don’t find out enough about *any* of it.  I think it’s winding towards its end next week — ?  I’ll watch if I can find it . . . have seen enough to feel mild interest in the wrap-up, if there is one.

    Stanley Tucci is in it, and is always worth watching.  The rest of them — well, it’s a professional job, some of the photography is beautiful in that way of things that are beautiful because you’re not actually standing there, breathing knife-blades of frozen humidity into your lungs, but you can watch other people doing that for you instead.  Only there are way too many of them (the people) and too many story-lines to keep untangled, and I can’t keep track of who’s supposed to be sleeping with whom most of the time, which is apparently important, somehow, to the story.

    If you haven’t been watching, you haven’t a snowball’s chance in Hell of catching the drift of any of it, so I wouldn’t bother trying to latch onto it at this point.  But there’s been so much nothing-at-all to watch these past two months or more that it did have the attraction of rarity.

    I (sort of) recommend instead “I Zombie”, which I gather is based on another god damn comic book (I used to collect the things as a kid, have grown to loathe the current ubiquity of super-simple comic book stories overtaking all forms of screen entertainment, or so it seems — Marvel this, Flash that, Secret floofy of Crud, Batman’s Gotham — plus all the supernaturally gifted teens and their soap operas.  This one has a nifty opening episode, crisp and funny and stylish; no doubt it will immediately descend into good zombies vs. bad zombies and off we go if you can manage to care enough.

    #39127
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @ichabod

    ah, thanks for that analysis. I’m pretty sure that if you’re confused, I wouldn’t have a vague chance in Hell!

    “Secret floofy of Crud, Batman’s Gotham — plus all the supernaturally gifted teens and their soap operas” Sounds hairy!  A riff from the irrepressible Buffy? No-one could imitate that well.

    #39159
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish so, Angel is hotting up. We have Darla’s self-dust and Connor’s birth (is his name a nod to Terminator?)

    The entire Angel Investigations is filled with suspicious people and no-one thinks to say ‘no’ to purple headed click tongued demons who want Fred’s brain? Then, there’s the (famous?) actor who is Dean and Sam’s dad in Supernatural (God, is that a predictably organised show…) who pretends he’s someone else and gives Angel 10k to remove a nest of vamps guarding some ‘treasure’. Now that part looks interesting…But that doesn’t amount to anything? I thought it would be apocalyptic (related to S7 Buffy perhaps?)

    There’s a certain confusion to the ….erm…genre here…? Comedy, horror, fantasy..I’m not sure what it is! Still, Angel’s comedy is brilliant…. And Lorne’s stepping up to the plate every episode!

    The Mission People, that’s what’s important..

    So, Cordy is bottle feeding Con in bed, beside Angel. Are they gonna, you know, hook up? And if so, his soul? Is it that being with Buffy, in the biblical way, causes Angel to lose his soul but with anyone else (hence the Darla non-conundrum) his soul is safe?

    And now, the Blinnikov Ballet:

    “bahahah, it vill be ze performance of ze lifetime. I guarantee zit!” (It reminds me of the Red Shoes!)

    Gorf!

    Amy Acker is gorgeous. If I batted for the other side, I’d be oocking out! (she’s a bit skinny though: I assume with age, she matures and curves out the bumps?). I love the ballet, myself but the cheap seats are now about $240 person. Ridiculous. Back in the day I could get standing tickets for $10. (Cordy is snoring. Class-ey!). Now, I see the ballet in Prague only -for only $25!! And awesome. Anyway, back to the actual show…

    “I was cool before I met y’ll” says Gunn who seems to now be in love with d’ballet!

    “I’m only alive when you’re inside me” ?? This is getting, a little awkward!

    “We left too soon!”

    “Who?  The room?”

    “As long as nothing gets inserted, it’s all OK”  This is funny indeed. Who the hell wrote this script? And what were they on?

    #39160
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    those faces in the ballet -smiling and laughing?  -and the other side? Very Gattis from the Beast Below!

    “Who is laughing now? Well, you.. but I still win” Wesley. And what if Gunn gets the gal? I want Wesley to have some….fun….at last…some resolution…. Poor, poor Wes, Gunn can get any girl he wants… No fair

    #39161
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    Actually, this ballet episode reminds me of the Halloween episode in Buffy S4 -a good ep, as I recall. Anya is the terrifying Bunny and all the Scoobies, including Oz,  are fuelled by the oppression that is their particular weakness..I see a similar pattern in Giselle.

    #39162
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    I’m a little confused as to the point behind Holtz? I understand that his essence was kept by Sajihan (sic) so he could remain alive in order to wreak  revenge on Angel for killing his wife and daughter in the 1770s?

    He has however ‘tricked’ a fairly normal (ordinarily educated) person (Justine) into doing his command & even  though he’s pinned her to a dirty table, she remains loyal and eager to help? It seems like a plot problem. As if the pretty good plots, to that end, aren’t enough?

    We still have ‘who is Connor and why/how will Angel’ end up killing him as Wes has discovered in the final translation prophecy, that this is to happen… As for the Sajhan himself? Does he have an ulterior motive and should I have picked up on this more clearly? It appears they may all want Connor for their own spurious ends?

     

    #39170
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — blimey, you’ve certainly picked up speed again and no mistake.

    I never made the Connor/Terminator connection before but that actually might have some traction, for reasons we should probably wait a few episodes before discussing.

    I love Darla’s demise and her whole character arc. Reams and reams are written about Spike’s journey towards a soul but hardly anyone does about Darla’s. She is dusted, comes back human with a soul, hates it so much she wants vamped again, then finally finds absolution and understanding through the soul by proxy of her son. To me that’s just as interesting as Spike’s, more noisy, and often more self-piteous journey to ensoulment. And Julie Benz has done great work here. And has a terrific death scene. That’s her with to my mind anyway two of the best death scenes on TV under her belt.

    Waiting in the Wings is a Joss episode. I think his only one in s3. And, yes, it’s very much his take on The Red Shoes, isn’t it? Giselle was clearly chosen because it provides nice echoes of the plot and what was also going on in the regulars’ wider arc. I wouldn’t put it past him to have written his own ballet if he’d had the time. The ep also introduces us to Summer Glau, who goes on to become a regular in Firefly (and also later in The Sarah Connor Chronicles.)

    Yes, a little happiness for Wesley would have been nice — but it just ain’t going to happen. Not yet anyway. I’d say he clearly counts as one of the most luckless characters in the Buffiverse.

    RE. Holtz. I don’t think there’s a contradiction between Holtz and Justine. And I wouldn’t call her normal or remotely well adjusted. Holtz has chosen her because she’s consumed with grief for her sister and burning with the need for revenge as he is. He’s just moulding it to his own ends. He’s radicalising her basically. I think the point of the knife scene is that Justine is essentially wedded to her own pain, has allowed it to define her. She needs it and Holtz is creating an association between himself and that pain, so that need transfers to him.

    It’s an interesting dynamic, I think. And those scenes of him training her in the graveyard made me think that they’re like some twisted parody of a Watcher and his Slayer.

    As to Sahjahn (no, I don’t know how to spell it either), his motives won’t become clear until a good few episodes down the line, where I think you can safely say he picks up The Anthony Ainley Award for Convoluted Nefarious Schemes.

    Glad you’re not sweltering into discomfort anymore…. :)

    #39171
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion —

    On the whole Connor thing. I guess it’s pretty obvious that Angel would give his son an Irish name. And it actually translates roughly as ‘lover of wolves’ or even ‘kin of wolves’ (or hounds or dogs), which I guess you could take to refer to Angel and Darla.

    #39174
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    yes, now Connor seems to have disappeared, tragically. Gone through a ‘portal’ although Lorne is assuring Angel it’s like finding a needle in an ocean of needles, or some other luckless metaphor of hellishness. It remind me of a show I watched (usually whilst ironing) called Being Human -it was near the end of the series, as the infant, having lost both mother and father, was a ‘prophecy child’ -the key to the beginning or end (I forget which) of the apocalypse.

    Yes, Justine having slit Wes’ throat, is having some feelings of remorse and I can see her character developing a little more -it seemed as though there was an awful lot going on and by giving Cordy her romantic “we’ll always have Paris  -or Bermuda” holiday, there’s some space to agonise on the perils of Connor. Now that Holtz is ‘gone’ Justine is not sure about Holtz’ minions (or those who’ve also suffered at the hands of vampires) and so there’s a stay of execution for Gunn…

    Definitely, the training in the graveyard -I think I moaned thinking I was in Buffy land!

    I wasn’t sure about Wes running off with the baby in the first place -Gunn and Fred learnt that Angel was being fed his own son’s blood; if Wes had come back to hear this or had sought advice from someone prepared to give him something useful I don’t think he would have believed kidnapping Con was the only option? Perhaps if he hadn’t felt so isolated  -by Fred, Cordelia, he might have had a confidant?

    Should Wes survive the attack by Justine, I can’t imagine Angel being able to revive this relationship/friendship, nor would the others… Even Lorne.

    The Air Con is marvellous. On the negative side, I can tell it’s not straight. How hard is it to use a tape measure? I even paid the guy.

    #39175
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    oh yes Darla was quite magnificent, throughout the whole buffy universe she certainly had a marvellous arc  and a stunning overall equation -from soul to lost soul and back again.

    I think Spike’s good looks and corniness (and coat) gave him the edge (the cheekbone edge)

    #39176
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Blimey @purofilion, you’re coasting ahead now. Kudos.

    The cutting of Wesley’s throat counts to me as one of the most shocking things I’ve seen in the Buffiverse. It’s not quite up there with Tara’s death but definitely made me go ‘bloody hell’ the first time I saw it. And yes, that and the kidnap of Connor are going to have major repercussions for, well, pretty much the rest of the show. It’s certainly not something Wesley is going to just bounce back from.

    As to the air-con, straight, squinty, as long as it works, right? I myself have never managed to put up a bookshelf that didn’t look as if it were not designed by a German Expressionist…..

    Granted, Spike does have the edge. And there’s some good knocking around of the concept of ensoulment later as he and Angel butt heads in s5….

    #39177
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @jimthefish

    me and my carpenter’s level -a love match in heaven. That and the manuals showing me how to pull apart both the dishwasher and the washing machine in order to fix it myself -I got tired of tradesmen!

    Mmm. I didn’t think they’d find Connor straight away -I guess I couldn’t imagine a 3 yr old wandering around in the Bangel universe. Although they did do it for Dawn. Still, the Sajhan is a temporal flux ‘demon’ -so will he find Connor and return him as the long lost prodigal (10year old) son? Speculation, speculation…

    Young Fred, with her mathematical brilliance and her time in a Hell dimension suggests she’d make an excellent companion for our Doctor. Though having seen the negative side of these places, maybe not!

    #39178
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion —

    Can I just say the idea of Fred as a companion for the Doctor is an awesome idea. That should totally have happened…. Someone give Steven Moffat Amy Acker’s phone number….

    The Dawn allusion to Connor is not too far off the mark actually….

     

    #39187
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    The White Room -truly creepy.

    As for Fred, she seems to be absolutely smitten with Wes -more so than Gunn, who she’s flattered by? Her need for Wes to be right, to have “done the right thing” is quite bizarre -but then there’s no normal in that gal -a whole lot of compassion but…

    And the demon is back? Is he the one who took Con in the first place? I’m getting confused. They look the same.

    So Sajhan is the noncorporeal one, now made corporeal.

    I suspect that Connor being ‘gone,’ having been taken, causes Con to be the very thing (thru some space and time dimension) that must be killed-in my opinion?

    #39188
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    “I miss gravity, friction, and smashing things to pieces. let’s start with your skulls”

    “or yours,” says Angel.

    Very cool entry.

    But who is thinking about Wes? Just a few episodes before, everyone was as family: at the ballet, in love and  definitely happy. Wes’ as the isolated one, is very very sad,

    And now, false prophecies: By Sajhan! That demon.

    Ah, so my predictions were wrong. And if Con comes back, he’s going to be one very pissed off kid.

    I can’t imagine Wes to have survived. How is that possible?

    Now Angel with his false promises of forgiveness: trying to murder Wes?

    This is awful;  and Cordelia waltzes back in with her mad lover… things have to get better now! They must. I can’t live without Wes.

    #39196
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Yes, Sahjahn, faked the prophecy because it originally foretold that he’d be killed by Connor.

    Don’t worry. We’ve not seen the last of Wes. It’s just his dynamic within the show from here on in just might be not quite what you’re expecting.

    And, yes, Fred’s moral compass is what you might call ‘unique’. But more of that next season.

    I’d like to be able to tell you that there’s light and sunshine at the end of the tunnel. But we’re just not there yet. Not even remotely.

    #39198
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    Oh yes, I see that there is such a depth of sadness to Angel -there was an underplay of humour (usually the zany Xander or Anya provided that) in Buffy that isn’t here.

    “Wes the betrayer: the worst spot in hell is reserved for people like us” or something like that. What a terrible, deadly scene with Layla.

    But Connor is baaack and he isn’t 3!

    He’s 15? and on a skateboard thingy and I bet he’s come back  to….kill dad. I knew it!! I’m sure at one point I wrote that it would be like River Song being bred to kill the Doctor. Of course, I thought it -or maybe 1/4 thought it. So, really I had no idea whatsoever! But that’s Whedon for you: unpredictable

    So we’ve got Connor the Slayer who wears what he kills and… shammies. Shammies are cool. Not quite a bow tie or a fez but still, it’ll take, it is LA after all.

    #39201
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion —

    The humour in Angel is often a lot more dry, with the sometimes fecklessness of Angel, or more ironical comments. It was the pratfalls of Wesley,  (or old Wesley), the bitchiness of (old) Cordelia and the wisecracks of Lorne who provide the big yucks.

    I love that scene with Lilah. She’s such a great character and she and Wesley have a great love/hate chemistry together.

    Good call on the analogy with the Melody Pond plan in Who. It is kind of what Holtz has been aiming towards really, isn’t it?

    Your earlier point about the Terminator maybe does stand up here. Connor the destroyer comes through a portal from the future (or Quortoth in this case) on an assassination mission. There are kind of parallels…

     

    #39216
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @Jimthefish

    AI are all a bit stupid:

    “yes, I love you Father, and by the way (to scum bag, Leland) my name is Connor not Steven”

    He’s going to kill Lorne or Cordelia. It’s in my waters.

    And as for the endless “you love your….Father” “He’ll come back because he’s my son. He’ll understand”

    “he’s your father” and I know you love him because he’s your ‘father’. He’ll love me because I’m his father”

    On and on.

    And on and on.

    A father is one because of his actions not the biology (although it’s the old fashioned Irish and 18th century Angel within him I suppose: the father, the son, the family tree).

    Honestly, have they all had a lobotomy? the kid’s damaged: and Lorne says “I wouldn’t be turning my back on him”.

    I want Lorne back and Connor is terrifying. At least the Groose was a kind man although always chatting about  “Making the sex”. There was humour and it’s poofed away!

    He’s tasered Angel and young Connor has organised Evil Lawyers to take him?  (no, no lawyers just the unforgiveable Justine!) And Cordy isn’t going to die by Con’s hands but will be placed in a ‘higher god-like dimension’. Cordy, who wanted Prada and Oroton back in Sunnydale and thought Zander was uncool as   boyfriend and hated Angel for being ‘demony’.

    Whoa, the arc that’s Cordy’s is almost unrecognisable and she’s turning all white, all goddess- like like whatshername in The Lord of the Rings.

    Now it appears Connor will ‘drown’ Angel in the sea -for an eternity and Cordy’s gone; Lorne is doing cabaret in Idaho (or one of the ‘i’ states) and Fred and Gunn are too much into each other to notice anything ‘kablooey’   going on.

    Connor needs a severe belting, no allowance (or pocket money), more belting, a room stripped of fun weapons and then needs to go to prison for all sorts of ‘atricide.

    If this is the end of a series, and I had to wait a year to watch it…I’d go utterly crazy. At least with Buffy there was a sense of ending -S3, 5 and 6 had that closure. And now it ends. HOW IS THAT IT?????? Now to your blog!

    I’m very glad I resisted the temptation to read your blog -it would have spoilt it. I do remember talking to a co-worker who said “that whole Connor thing divided people and most audiences hated him”. I did my ‘fingers- on- lips’ thing and he clammed up after that.

    Personally, that kid is hate-filled, it’s all he’s known and frankly any urge I had to forgive Wes has gone, gone, gone. Wes did this ultimately -although I’m presuming there were always other ways to kidnap the baby but at least they could have used Wes’ brains.  Coz there are precious few brains left…

    To the blog….she gallops.

     

    #39221
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish

    almost 3 episodes into the 4th season already -honestly, how could I wait?

    Angel’s resurrected from the ocean with the help of Con, Justine and Wes who feeds Angel -a fitting act of contrition, I would think and yet, it’s not enough? He’s on Lilah’s side, but he knows that what he’s getting into is completely wrong and isn’t particularly cautious. Does he feel his own soul is lost? Have his actions caused an inner damnation, an apathy beyond repair?

    And is this new ‘Electro girl’, very magnetic (and ends up kissing Angel already!), looking a lot like Glory and wearing the same red, the next ‘Cordy’? I’m not sure I’m ready to see her leave yet? And there wasn’t a full connection  -or honest discussion  -about the love between Cordelia and Angel. It seems Angel gets terribly lost (with ‘those women’): first Buffy and now Cordy, and Angel seems to have accepted her ultimate transcendence.

    He’s drawn to the same type of woman: compassionate souls who are strong and accepting of their particular gifts or fate? Definitely Cordy becomes that way and I think Buffy realises that also by the end of S3 -no Prom night Queen but a fate of saving the world from the Mayor and others from chaos near the Hellmouth.

    And perhaps Buff must also recognise that love with anyone -other than someone as odd and superpowery as herself,  is not possible (hence the Riley and Spike experiment). Cordelia is more aware of this – it doesn’t take a  lot of convincing by Groose to figure out that Angel is her long-term future and Groose is her ‘college’ -like play mate. I suppose Cordy has a job, bills, an apartment (and it is LA after all, not Sunnydale) and is considerably older and dare I say, more mature, than the girlish Buffy of S4.

    Cordy’s seen a lot; and can assess the distinction between a good demon and bad person-to some extent, although they’re all caught up with the guilt of losing Con, that they don’t want to believe he’s anything other than the prodigal son. It’s appropriate that Angel says: “I love you Con, but get out of my house,” Bit different from the “goochy goochy” baby talk of the previous season.

    Who the heck is Elliot? He’s a wonderful baddy!

    And Lorne is at The Tropicana?  Surrounded by pink feathers and sequins….and makeup. How lovely. At least he can stretch his vocal muscles. I peeped at some internet interviews with Andy when he was in Oz -a wonderful chap, very sincere about his early career: “I’m green and it’s wonderful and I think it’s what I want to be”

    #39224
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    and then there’s The Lornettes!! :) :)

    #39228
    Avatar of JimTheFishJimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @purofilion — Don’t worry. Cordy’s not out of the picture yet. Though you may yet come to wish she was.

    Gwen is great. Though she’s more like something from the X-Men rather than something from the Buffiverse. But I think she does add something to the mix.

    I think with Wes and Lilah — a brilliantly twisted and I’d say possibly the most grown-up relationship of the Buffiverse — the key is that line of Anya’s when she’s caught banging Spike — “it was solace”. I think Wes definitely does feel a bit lost though. But he’s still trying to project it through the screwed-up shell of reticence and self-reliance that the Watchers’ Council tried to drum into him.

    I’m loving that Andy Hallett quote. I can just hear him saying it.

    Lornettes are great. Best. Fred. Costume. Ever.

    And Connor is truly a little arse. It’s definitely a case of ‘if you thought Dawn was bad, wait till you meet…’. Am I the only one who goes ‘yas!’ when he gets tasered by Fred?

    But my goodness, you’re really motoring through them now….

    #39229
    Avatar of Anonymous @

    @JimTheFish Slouching Toward Bethlehem.

    Yes, for some reason, Cordy is back and “who the hell are you people” with a ‘ face opening’ demon (one of the worst things I’ve ever seen) and ‘the tip of the berg’ according to Lorne referring to the apocalypse again….this is hinted at, described, been suggested in ironic detail and then Lorne confronts it…. So is this THE apocalypse? The one Buffy must fight in S7?

    I suspect so, unless there’s more apocalypse to be had which then means it loses its power and ‘all hell of hellishness’ impact.

    Are W and H responsible for this return of Cordy’s?  Will Cordy bring it all on? Is she the bringer of revelations?

    And yet such a high powered being? I’m being ping ponged about here and whilst I don’t know why Cordy was given a higher power status, I know even less about why she was brought back? And I don’t think she remembers where she spent the last 3 months? Interesting that Connor is being “honest” about how “brave she was”.

    Frankly, I don’t know who is left to trust. Wes is suspicious of Lilah and Con is the only one Cordy trusts.

    How unlikely! OKaaay, and Con has slept with one teenage hand on her boob.

    Fair enough. Nothing is a surprise.

    But the scene with Lilah and Wes, at her apartment “if you trusted me I wouldn’t have been able to play you like that” was marvellous. They both underplay their roles spectacularly. It reminds me of the Doctor and Clara ” as if betraying me would make a difference.”

    Twisted around, but it’s both sides of the same coin.

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