On the Sofa 11

[winston @winston]

@blenkinsopthebrave  @thane16  @whohar   @ps1l0v3y0u

Series 5 was wonderful from the very beginning to the bitter end. The Eleventh Hour was such a great introduction to a new Doctor and companion that my regeneration shock wore off quickly. The episode is set in one big lonely house  and a very small village with only a small amount of FX but so much story. By the time it was over I was bewitched by this new Doctor and his fiery companion Amy Pond. Not to mention her boyfriend Rory, a sweet guy soon to be a loyal hero.

The Doctor saves the day and catches prisoner zero with the help of Amy ,Rory and a fire engine and then warns off the prison warden in a very cool way. His clothes are borrowed, his bow tie is cool and he is a bit knees and elbows but so much fun.

I suppose my point is that this and more , all happened in one satisfying episode and I miss that kind of episode now and then. I might be old and crusty but in my day….

stay silly

[winston @winston]

@whohar.  Great list!

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave @whohar @winston @psi

agreed. Those are top notch episodes. The Eleventh Hour was an hour long, wasn’t it? I think most of those series increased runtimes from 44 mins to 52. And there was still 13 eps per year.

RTD initially had an Easter special (as well as the Christmas ones) travelling to Dubai to film Planet of the Dead? I actually loved that Gareth Roberts story, an absolute hoot & Lady Sousa was just the right blend of cheeky & class.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16 Moff *is* clever, in fact I think he’s a genius at writing dialogue that is witty, ironic and surprising. (I’m a sucker for interesting, original turns of phrase, whether in book fiction or in TV drama). I think Moff’s era was the best of Who. RTD’s first era was very good too (I don’t know enough about his current one to judge it).

To be honest, I wasn’t that enthused by Hungry Earth / Cold Blood (and that was before I knew who the writer was). I was intrigued by the brief scene of the Doctor and Amy watching from the distant hillside, but that was never followed up or explained so far as I know? (Chibs planting the seed of a future story thread?)

@whohar One point from your list – Zygon Inversion was credited as Peter Harness / Stephen Moffat. (As an aside, although I really like the Zygon eps, Peter Harness also wrote Kill the Moon which is the absolute worst ep of NuWho – in my estimation).

But I’m not surprised writers other than Moff and RTD wrote some excellent eps, there are many other good writers out there. Toby Whithouse, Jamie Mathieson and Neil Gaiman come to mind. Though whether Moff (as showrunner) had any hand in reviewing or ‘polishing’ some of the other stories, I don’t know. I’d be surprised if he didn’t have some input into some of those (ditto RTD in the first 4 seasons).

@ps1l0v3y0u Series 7 was excellent – and for me that includes the whole of the series, not just the second half. Asylum of the Daleks I love, especially the hidden-in-plain-sight trick Moff played on us over Souffle Girl (where does she get the milk?) He got away with it because Jenna can do ‘upbeat’ so well. Unlike some viewers, I absolutely love it when a writer does that. And A Town Called Mercy (Toby Whithouse) – I thought that was great. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship was a clunker (oh, written by Chibs), and The Power of Three started out really well with the enigmatic cubes but fell flat in the finale (also Chibs – maybe he’s better at thinking up intriguing plotlines than he is at resolving them).

While I’m at it, The Girl Who Waited was a classic with a tragic moral dilemma – which Amy should Rory save. (Also, the Doctor lies like a bastard when necessary). I think I cried at the ending.
I liked The Wedding of River Song too – both in A Town Called Mercy, Wedding, and Angels Take Manhattan, Amy had turned into a formidable character. (In Wedding, I must admit I cheered when Amy left Madame Kovarian to be zapped – “River Song didn’t get it all from you, sweetie.”)

@blenkinsopthebrave Vincent and the Doctor was what got me back into Who. I have to admit that I was captivated by Tennant, so when we had lost Rose, and Martha had left, and Tennant regenerated, Smith’s early debut left me cold. So I lost touch with watching it on TV, besides the randomness of me remembering when to turn the TV on. Some time later, on a quite unrelated website, someone mentioned Bill Nighy’s excellent ‘Curator’ and that prompted me (I think) to start renting series DVD’s and I got back into it. I appreciate 11th Hour better now, having got used to the characters.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@dentarthurdent

I think the scene of Amy & the Doctor on the hill was because at the end of that episode Rory was excised from memory due to the crack in time.

The Doctor keeps the engagement ring hidden from Amy. Her meeting with Vincent, in the next episode, shows her sadness as I think Vincent says she seems happy & yet still cries. 2 episodes later & Rory reappears as an auton.

Most definitely Moffat had a hand in polishing up & reviewing all the episodes in his seasons.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston Well, as I’ve already said, Season 5 at first ‘lost’ me to Who, probably because I was still recovering from Tennant withdrawal. (I now like Smith and Capaldi just as much as Tennant. I guess I’m a bit slow to accept change). On later re-viewing, I’ve enjoyed those episodes more. I still find S5 middling good, best episodes (for me) were the Pandorica Opens / Big Bang. I thought Season 6 was better. But (looking quickly over the episode list, and taking seasons as a whole) I think Season 9 would be my favourite season. Obviously we all have our personal favourites.

@thane16 I liked Planet of the Dead best of the three specials. Lady Sousa was great, I was sure she was going to become a Companion. Apparently they had much difficulty in filming it, including that the bus got seriously bent on the ship on the journey out and they had to work around it.

Hungry Earth – Amy & the Doc on the hill was supposed to emphasise (or tease) the absence of Rory? But I still don’t get the rationale for them being there, unless they’d gone there deliberately to catch a last glimpse of Rory – but why, if Amy couldn’t remember him? I’m probably missing something.
The reappearance of Rory as an Auton, who then sort of decided he was going to become a human (or as good as), was a welcome surprise. Though I have to say, I’m never very enthused with Companions’ Significant Others – Mickey, Rory or Danny. Probably partly influenced by the fact that they were all to some degree disapproving of the Doctor. (The same went for most of their mothers, come to that).

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @thane16 @winston @blenkinsopthebrave @whohar

it’s easier to find duff eps pre twice upon a time than good ones after (up until RTD2 anyway)

9 eps per season does seem a bit mean, with not a lot of scope for additional writers. I would say the only real clunkers were Russ’ Legend and Empire. But did they clunker. I keep looking for reasons in the arc… whatever it is. Will the key may be UNIT? Perhaps more information may emerge in the spin-off.

Secondary companions. Those three worked. Mickey was comedy, and we did laugh at him and Jack; now persona non grata. Danny and Rory were more critical, in different ways. Danny’s departure is interesting; he was on the verge of dumping Clara, next seen in various Virtual Realities. Which seems topical. I mean, I’m sure Gallifreyan tech is fantastic, but bringing a dead Afghan kid back? Presumably to London? And no awkward questions???

Arthur Darvill was great. Big Nose for Doctor 17. Doctor who refuses to put his companions at risk…? ‘Let’s NOT split up eh?’

[WhoHar @whohar]

@dentarthurdent

Smith’s early debut left me cold. So I lost touch with watching it on TV

I too, had some reservation with Smith’s early portrayal, finding it a bit too manic at times and with a bit too much posturing (I Am the DOCTOR), and it spoilt some eps for me (yes, even Vincent). I often take time to adjust to a new Doc though.

Once I had acclimatised myself to the new characterisation, I went back and rewatched and found I enjoyed them much more.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u With respect, could you sometimes be a little more specific in your references to past episodes? Sometimes I’m not on the same wavelength and have trouble placing your references. For example, Russ’ Legend and Empire – I first thought of Legend of the Sea Devils, had to refer to the episode list to realise it was Legend of Ruby Sunday and Empire of Death.

But yes, they were a bit clunker. Like many of RTD’s finales, they had everything but the kitchen sink – UNIT, old Companions brought back, a universe-sized mega-threat – too much already. Not that I objected to seeing them, but not all at once.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

I did mention Russ… perhaps I should have said RTD2.

The main point being, those two season closers were not just messed up by the arc – the key element presumably being VR – but by slow development: UNIT; non vital personnel old and new; they have a TIME WINDOW, which requires an exorbitant amount of explanation to no effect; yet no one can explain what The Vlinx is.

I was saying that all is not lost, whether or not Billie is or not The Doctor. There were bad eps in the past. There were some great eps in both the new series.

And sadly I never saw Legend of The Sea Devils… some relation to the spin-off do you think?

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@pa1l0v3y0u   I got ‘Russ’, it was the ‘Legend and Empire’ that puzzled me.   Notwithstanding that they were the two most recent eps I’ve viewed.   Which kind of demonstrates the impact that RTD’s finale had on me.   🙂

Legend of the Sea Devils was one of Chibs’ last three specials, watchable if you weren’t too critical.   Roughly on a level with Curse of the Black Spot, I think.   Eve of the Daleks was Chibs’ best IMO, and Power of the Doctor was, IIRC, okay I think (can’t remember a lot about it).

Back to RTD’s two-parter – yes, I found the Time Window a bit confusing.   The Vlinx looks like a joke, or maybe a Disneydroid, and I agree, no explanation of where it came from or what it does.   (Or if there was I missed it).   For some reason I don’t like it much, though.

But I have high hopes for the new series.   Or at least, some of it, even if it’s a bit uneven.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

So, why has RTD2 been so different, if indeed that is the case?

I think Marvel had been held up as a challenge since Husbands of River Song. Attract new viewers! It’s not necessarily a good fit but, like Grade making unfavourable comparisons with Star Wars in the 80’s (how about giving us the budget and 5 years’ development chap) it does raise the bar. And lower it.

Thesis 1: Steven Moffat could not successfully script a Star Wars movie. Praise The Force!

So big budgets may be a bit of a waste for a show noted for wit and ideas. Obviously we’re not talking about the various attempts to turn it into a soap opera.

Thesis 2: there are people who don’t like wit and ideas; they call it Woke.

RTD must have found cosying up to Disney problematic. The desire to make it cartoony is understandable but then there were plenty of episodes… Wild Blue Yonder, Boom, 73 Yards, The Well… which were not. Dot and Bubble, and Story and Engine were another kind of cartoon entirely. However, even factoring in RTD’s penchant for nutty season finales, this was uneven.

Thesis 3: it was written in a rush.

Specifically, at some point in 2021 say, The BBC contact Russ and say ‘we need help. That show you really like is heading for the bin. This is our wish list. What can you do?’

Not sure how that negotiation played out but, at a guess, Gatiss, Whithouse and Matthieson were all considered too adult.

Nonetheless, having had 5-10 years to cook up the first arc with or without a Cartmel 2.0, Russ thinks ‘yeah I can do this (again)’ but actually he hasn’t that many ideas banked. Blimey where do you start?

So, brainstorming, he looks at the calendar. Once he knows the proposed broadcast slots he thinks: ‘May 11th… that’s the anniversary of 2 major Cybermen stories. Now didn’t Chib somehow manage to ask an interesting question of Cybermen: that is, do they really want to be androids? Yes, the organic element is their Achilles heel, but what would they need if they were to avoid being dumb robots? Better not lead with that or you give it all away.

What else have we for May 11th? Spiders… which really doesn’t work. But Planet of the Spiders replaced the abandoned Final Game, which revealed The Doctor’s history. Very Cartmel. Frankly, that really does need some fixing. I’m thinking Susan Foreman.’

‘The 2nd series could also be based around May 24th because they made me skip 2 eps for Eurovision back in the day. Yes, nice and camp: I’ll shoehorn that in. And, historically, that date also gives me The War Games. So, we need to reintroduce people to that gem. 10 eps? Oooh! Maybe get it trimmed and colourised.

Also Silence and The Library from 31st May, because that was the broadcast date of one of the delayed shows. Donna (and eventually River) are trapped in VR! Oh tres topical! Got to make that happen! And of course excellent for Cybermen, Gromit.’

‘Now, who else messes about with VR? The Valeyard. Right. What is the negative aspect of The Doctor? Good vs Evil. He HAS committed genocide. Davros won’t shut up about it.’

‘And who likes dubious armies of mooks? The Great Intelligence! Where is TGI? In The Doctors timeline… Now, do I have the number for Grant’s agent?’

‘So. Negative Aspect of The Doctor… best exemplars…<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>Remembrance = genocide, Coal Hill + maybe chuck Omega in to keep the trainspotters happy.’

‘That aired on Oct 5th. There’s 2 others from that date. Firstly, The Mindrobber = VR!!’

‘And 3 is the charm! Paradise Towers… people go to war at the behest of a Corporation/Organisation, just like The War Games; also Great Architect (=Intelligence), and it has a useless masculine character (VR, AI, mock the Alt Gammon) Yeah, that works great!’

‘Now, we’re unlikely to broadcast on Oct 5th… no problem: as Dylan Thomas said to AJP Taylor: “don’t make it too easy for the readers.” But best drop an Oct 5th ref in some random ep.’

Boom as it happens.

‘Problem… VR stories have a bad track record and can be a tad confusing. How far can you suspend disbelief?

Well, at least there’s no Fam. Oh you want to expand Unit for a spin off and bring some old faces back? Errr… sure, the viewers won’t notice. Too much.’

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent   I do love a good story!  If FX or CGI enhance the story than that is great. I loved when SmithDoc rode his motorcycle up the sides of the Shard or all the alien ships hovered over Stonehenge and the aliens get more convincing every series but you still have to have a good tale to tell. Lucky for me ,I am easily pleased and I like all Doctor Who and all the Doctors so I was just saying that if money is an issue I can live with less.

The 15th Doctor would have been great against the cybermen  or the daleks.

Midnight was an excellent episode that kept me on the edge of my seat for the whole thing. The episode was like a one act play and definitely highlighted Tenant’s acting abilities as well as the rest of the cast. It was just so menacing and tense that I don’t rewatch it too much cause it stresses me out. What was out there? Who is doing that ? We get no answer. Wow , an emotional roller coaster.All the while Donna is at a spa. Isn’t that just the way.

Anyway how is the beach? still swimming?

@nerys  Hi!   Is it hot down there? We are melting here. When you feel like you are swimming through the air ,it is too hot. When the birds have their beaks open and the squirrels are laying spread out on the cooler ground it is too hot. When sweat drips down off your forehead while standing still with a garden hose it is too hot. When it is 35C but feels 45C it is way too hot!

I guess the tomato plants like it. That is me looking for a bright side.

stay nice.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Specifically, at some point in 2021 say, The BBC contact Russ and say ‘we need help. That show you really like is heading for the bin. This is our wish list. What can you do?’

Not sure how that negotiation played out but, at a guess, Gatiss, Whithouse and Matthieson were all considered too adult.

Nonetheless, having had 5-10 years to cook up the first arc with or without a Cartmel 2.0, Russ thinks ‘yeah I can do this (again)’ but actually he hasn’t that many ideas banked.

I think there’s something in this, especially the BBC’s cry for help and the reduced amount of time RTD had to work with. There are a lot of similarities with RTDs first run e.g. The Master reveal (RTD) and The Rani reveal (RTD2), there are many others. From which I infer he stepped in to help because he loves the show but borrowed from his first run as he didn’t have the same amount of development time.

But…he also made some creative decisions which (like it or not) have alienated a large amount of the fanbase, lead to falling ratings, critical disapproval (some of it fair, and plenty of it vile), and so here we are.

As @blenkinsopthebrave said above, oh the irony if RTD is the person who both brought back Who and oversaw its demise.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston   I think that episode with the Shard was (from memory) quite modest in the amount of CGI it used.   Probably the biggest amount was the zombies with dishes in the backs of their heads.   Similarly the alien ships over Stonehenge (incidentally that caused me a minor techie-angst because I’m sure the ships would have been too high to make out, but I’ll cut the program that much slack).   Either way, the effects were adequate to the episode.

The beach is fine but I haven’t swum since the start of May.   The water finally got a bit too cool.  We’re well into winter now, which means generally low temperatures (‘low’ being 10 – 15 degrees C during the day) with the occasional lovely fine day which is still cool but warm in the sun.   Pity temperatures can’t be posted, if you sent us a little of your excess warmth then we’d both be having really pleasant weather   🙂

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent   I get the techie-angst , I feel the same about  historical shows. Drives me up the wall if they get things wrong. Especially if they claim to be true or based on a true story.Lucky for me Doctor Who makes none of these claims so I kinda shrug and continue watching.

Your weather sounds lovely. We did cool down today to a nice 23C with a few showers so that was nice. It’s heating up next week so I better do my gardening  over the weekend. I tend to hide out inside when it gets that hot but I guess I get some inside stuff done.

If I could send you some of this heat I would because I don’t like it. I am now complaining about the weather like an old person. Wait. What? I just remembered I am an old person.

Have a happy beach walk.

stay safe

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston    On the subject of techie-angst, I forgot to mention my absolute nemesis, Kill the Moon.   Right from the start it seems determined to violate every physical law it can and wave that in our faces.   (They materialise in a Space Shuttle.   The Shuttle was only ever designed for low Earth orbit, it could never make it to the Moon.   Its cargo bay was unpressurised, so they couldn’t take their helmets off.   It would have NO gravity unless either the rocket motor was running, or it was gliding (which requires air.   There is no air on the Moon).   It lands as a very high-speed glider – if it hit the Moon (as it would, since it can’t glide there) it would just leave a very large new crater.   Should I go on…   🙂

I could handle that with a lot of effort, but I was already annoyed by Clara insisting that the Doctor be nice to the appalling whiny Courtney.    It went downhill from there, and once you’ve lost the audience’s willingness to ‘suspend disbelief’ in a sci-fi episode you’re pretty much sunk.

Historically, I’m more squeamish about recent history about real people that tends to get misrepresented by writers.   I was fine with Let’s Kill Hitler because they didn’t actually kill him*, and it was the sort of encounter that probably wouldn’t be recorded.  If it does no  violence to known facts, I’m a happy chappie**.   I was a lot less happy (i.e. somewhat unhappy) about the Tesla episode because the ‘battle of the currents’ (AC vs DC) was between Edison and Westinghouse (who ‘won’ it but didn’t get a mention), Tesla was a very minor player.

*Not because I’m opposed to the idea of killing Hitler, but somebody would have noticed if they had.

**The prize for that has to go to a very different series, ‘Hercules’ where Hercules defeated Caesar’s attempted invasion of Ireland (yes I know he never did), as Caesar was sailing away in defeat his scribe said “This was Caesar’s only defeat, but I have a duty to record the truth” and Caesar said “You have been a good and faithful friend, Scribulus (motions to guards) and I shall miss you. (splash offscreen)   Caesar never suffers defeats.”  I thought that was a great retcon.

Your weather – we rarely get it that hot.   23C is about as warm a it usually gets, maybe 25.   30 would be exceptional.   Probably Auckland’s location on a narrow strip of land between two oceans moderates the temperature a lot (but also results in highly variable weather as rain bands drift across us).

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent      Hercules and Xena were 2 shows we watched as a family and we all liked it. My youngest son was a big fan and still watches them now and then. Loved Gabby and Iolas and all the Gods and Romans that showed up. I remember that episode and got a chuckle out of the ending.

I don’t know why people forget George Westinghouse, he was also a genius and as you say ,he won the battle of the currents. They did that in Doctor Who and in other things I’ve seen. Poor George.

Nu Who have certainly visited Earths past but being a sci-fi it doesn’t usually bother me if they play around with the truth but the Tesla thing did. I suppose the Doctor marrying QE1 was a bit silly but he did go away before the wedding night leaving her still a virgin. She sure was pissed at him in the Shakespeare episode.

Your weather sounds heavenly right now. Most of the time I am content with our crazy Canadian weather but these horrible extremes we’ve already seen this year  make me anxious about fires and other things. Ice and fire this year.

The garden plants love this weather and my tea rose that I named Rose Tyler has its first spectacular peach and pink flower. I renamed my marijuana plant (legal in Canada) the Girl Who Waited.  Last years was The Impossible Girl. Yes I am weird and I do give my plants names ,often Who themed. A Who garden .

Stay cozy

 

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@winston    Our weather is nothing to boast about, best described as ‘extremely variable’.  A couple of days ago we had a storm with high winds and waves coming across the road in some places.   At my house we had the heaviest rain I’ve since since the record-smashing big rains / Cyclone Gabrielle (!) of two and a half years ago.

Your Who garden sounds delightful.   Oddly enough, Mrs D’s dahlias have all sprouted into bushy green plants again and a few of them even have flowers on.   Crazy plants.

I suppose the reason Westinghouse gets omitted is because Tesla is the most ‘interesting’ character and he needs a villain to oppose him, that being, of course, Edison.

My approach to ‘historical’ stories is, ‘could this have happened without clashing with established history’?   If so, it’s OK.   That’s not a rigid rule, but if the writers can make it fit, that helps the credibility for me.

I watch Xena occasionally but Mrs D prefers Hercules.   The Greek gods were fun.   The writers certainly tampered with history quite a lot.   But I did appreciate the way Xena dealt with her enemy Julius Caesar – by subtly persuading Brutus that Caesar was a threat, to Rome and to him personally.  Neatly done!

The Doctor marrying Elizabeth 1 in Day of the Doctor – the wedding appears to be a private ceremony, with the Eleventh Doctor, the War Doctor and Clara Oswald as witnesses.   So when the Tenth Doctor ran off, I guess Elizabeth wouldn’t want to make the story public, and the witnesses were conveniently absent – which is why ‘history’ never mentions the event.   I believe the Doctor later implied that she wasn’t the ‘Virgin Queen’ any longer, but then I’ve always been a little bit – sceptical – of that title.   I would guess (with no evidence) that ‘Virgin Queen’ in this context was more an honorary title and would just mean that she had never been (officially) married, and was reasonably discreet about her male ‘favourites’.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent @winston

Historicals… we’ve had this discussion before. I can’t  think of many reasons why Historicals can’t be fone, or done better.

Unless:

1. They’re considered dull.

2. The writers aren’t up to it.

3. The script edding ain’t up to it.

Not saying it hasn’t ever gone wrong, but really what’s so scary, unless it’s boredom, writing and edding?

It’s an open goal. Missed. Serially.

Question… are The Corp running scared??

The Gammon is out there. They can be touchy.

The Village Green Preservation Society.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys @dentarthurdent

Village of The Angels: The Afterthought.

Do you remember my date theories? Significant dates of eps. Dates mentioned in eps. For November 21st (Village of the Angels) there are two other eps.

1. Dalek Invasion Earth: Could this have been a flux event? If so then that’s definitely a retcon. That is plans start with Andrew Cartmel and he was six at the time. But it’s also the last appearance of Susan. Clearly significant in the era of RTD2

2. Face The Raven: The Doctor gets extracted, but this time by The Timelords. Or did he? Could The Division have had a hand? If so… and it’s a big if, is this ANOTHER retcon? Or Cartmel 2.0? Got to control continuity. There MUST be a plan.

The latter might add extra weight to Russ and Moff’s loyal defence of The Timeless Children. This was NOT simply Chib’s fault; it’s the way he tells em.

Now, that whole story series 8 & 9… how did this Confession Dial malarkey start? Well, yes, it’s a story but how do people, Moff whoever, make stuff up? And know it will make sense. This is straight after Missy suddenly appears with rather more Cybermen than you can shake a stick at? Why exactly did she think The Doctor needed an army? Against who?

Also how exactly could Danny extract the dead Afghan Kid from the Data Slice? What was Clara supposed to do with him? It’s like something out of a dreeeam. Not just that: where did Orson Pink spring from? With a testimonial from The Tardis no less!

And what else can be done with a Data Slice? Does a Data Slice generate AI? (You bet) Why does the same volcanic landscape appear both in Dark Water and Last Christmas?

Why does Missy make a great play about recharging a VM from a death ray? She says The Doctor thought it up but we only get to see her do it.

Then we see her get zapped by Saxon who, dying and incapable, heads down into a hold full of Cybermen.

Missy gets cornered on Skaro. The Movie<span class=”Apple-converted-space”> </span>Master is executed on Skaro.

Why is there a lone, semi-converted Cyberman at The Villa? Maybe conversation failures are deleted before we get to see them. Maybe there was a reason Ashad didn’t work… like an incompatible substrate… or someone mucked up the parameters. Wonder Who?

Then there’s Claire’s DoB… 13th May: The Mutants?? Rise of The Cybermen (oh yes) and Oxygen.

13.05.85 would have been right after the fateful season 22, when season 23 had to be rewritten. Make of that what you will.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u

I’d like to comment but I’m afraid I’m hopeless about dates.   I can remember 1066,1588,1805,1812,1815,1914-18 and 1939-45 and that’s about it.   Also 1923 (when the british railways were ‘grouped’ into the ‘big four’) and 1948 when they were all nationalised as BR (‘cos I’m a train nut) – and that’s it.

If you told me an asteroid was going to hit my house at precisely 3pm on September 11th  I’d be wandering around at 2-45 pm scratching my head and thinking ‘there’s something I ought to remember.   Probably doesn’t matter, I’ll remember it later’.   I’m worse than the Doctor when it comes to dates.

Incidentally, there’s an inherent logical flaw in any adventures involving someone with a time machine, which is, why don’t they just go back in time by half an hour and tip themselves off?   I guess that’s where the prohibition of crossing the timelines originally came from.   Something that subsequent writers have invoked when it suits them, and conveniently ignored when it doesn’t.    The Tardis’s notorious inaccuracy in its destinations is also one of those on-again off-again things, I thought the exchange in The Doctor’s Wife handled that beautifully – “You never took me where I wanted to go”  “But I always took you where you needed to go.”

[nerys @nerys]

@ps1l0v3y0u I can barely keep track of plot lines, much less timelines, so I’m a poor choice for any kind of meaningful exchange on your date theories. But bravo to you for taking that on! I could not do it.

@dentarthurdent I’m much the same as you … and getting worse by the day. I never considered your point about the inherent logical flaw in time travel. I enjoy your recollection of that Tardis exchange. Such insights are what I have always loved about Doctor Who.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@nerys @dentarthurdent

Forget dates. I just wonder why some random date is sometimes quoted by the writer. Yes, Village was broadcast on that date but Chibnall didn’t have to be so precise. Is it a nod to the discerning fan?

Of more importance is The Master’s timeline. 3 and Delgado, unless it was 5 and Ainley, may have talked about remaining ‘relative to each other within the causal nexus’. Seriously, are they continually interacting? And do we think The Master is actually that bothered?

More precisely…

Saxon was sure he would become Missy. Missy was evasive.

Missy boasted she could use a death ray to charge up a vortex manipulator/teleporter.

Missy was surrounded by Daleks on Skaro. Someone got zorched on Skaro and 7 took the remains to New York.

Spydoctor has Tremas Doctor’s Tissue Compression Eliminator. Or vice versa.

Max Capricorn had gold tooth like The Toymsker’s. And the tooth really did THAT ✨. Maybe that’s a bit silly.

We see mainly The Doctor in what seems to be a logical narrative sequence because the narrative is about The Doctor and we need to grasp it. Ignore T’floox for the moment.

In any case, as two time travellers, who only occasionally interact, does this logically have much bearing on The Master’s Timeline?

Another thought. The Doctor asks Cuddly Tecteun if what Spymaster said was true.

Significant pause… no? Wasn’t there? A moment of doubt or calculation. Tecteun says, ‘yes.’

1. Does she know what Spymaster said? If so, how?

2. Did she tell Spymaster what to tell The Doctor? And was he a dutiful and accurate mouthpiece?

3. Were the two of them actually in the destruction of Gallifrey together?

4. Is T’floox actually about destroying The Master?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Not really sure if this should be here or on The Winchester. But there is no dedicated Second Doctor forum. And, with all the frightful C21st stuff happening out of the corner of our eye, I thought the faithful could do with something to help remove invaders from The Activity List.

So… Fury From The Deep 1968… the first burgeoning of The Base Under Seige. All lost bar audio recordings, the Tardis landing in the sea , reused in The War Games before it could lost, and Mr Oakes and Mr Quill, expurgated by Australian censors before broadcast (don’t frighten the roos!)

I’ve watched half so far, but for the reasons above, I thought I’d post now.

I’m grateful for the animation because it’s such an important episode… some people may not realise but the immediate impact was huge. This is the ep with the seaweed. I remember the foam, screaming,  and older (mainly female) siblings being genuinely terrified. For another ten years, genuinely scary stories like Inferno, Terror of the Autons, and Ark in Space were compared with this.

You can find the original footage of Oakes and Quill can be found on the net and must be one of the main reasons for its reputation. You might conclude that’s be because intention is to horrify and it works. Mrs Harris is the victim, though nervous Vicky Waterfield also gets famously screamy.

Is it exploitative? Yeah! Or is this like Sarah Silverman channeling ‘something’ when Wreck it Ralph destroys Venelope’s Car? That is also VERY disturbing. And dramatically sound. Many more like this and Mary Whitehouse would have been twitchy five years early.

Mrs Harris also walks into the North Sea. And submerging. Oz was apparently ok with that scene!

The animation can he a bit duff. And production values were different even when you only have dislogue. But this rolls along at a pace, except for the suspense, which hangs around like wet kelp underfoot.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Distraction most welcome!

I’ve never seen FftD, but it’s on my 2nd Doctor hitlist. There’s something about Troughton’s performances that I find very engaging. The first episode of his I watched was the Three Doctors, and I’ve been keen to complete my education since. Only seen a few to date: Tomb, War Games, and a couple of animated ones (Power of the Daleks). I tend to go for the few (mostly) complete live-action stories, where possible, as there is something lost in the animated versions. As you say, good to have them here at all.

Interestingly there are strong rumours that a number of the lost episodes are in private collectors’ hands. For various reasons (e.g. fear of prosecution, chance for reward, bloody-mindedness…) there is a reluctance on their part to hand them back to the BBC. Also interestingly, while there are audio recordings of all the episodes, the BBC are holding off animating some of them. I wondered if it’s to do with the scheduled release to Doctor Who – The Collection (the Blu-Ray sets of each classic season). They’ve mostly done Docs 3-7 (about three or four seasons to go I think) but have only released Season 2 of Docs 1 &2 seasons to date. I suspect it is due to the extra work required in animation, although a part of me hopes it is because they are negotiating the return of some of the missing eps.

I’ve just finished the Web of Fear which, all normal caveats aside, was a decent watch. Could easily have been a 4-parter though. Episode 3 was animated, which was generally ok, although I did notice that the characters’ arms tended to move almost constantly, and some of the figure movements tended on the jerky.

Interestingly, there was one episode (2) in which the Doc is completely absent. Proper Doctor-lite that one. Also, I noted in the credits that one of the Yetis was played by a certain John Levene.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

So… Fury from The Deep… the last hour and a bit.

To be frank, and obviously this is animated, the second half didn’t have anywhere near the creep factor of the first. The sonic attack courtesy of Victoria was a long time coming and… just as Moff would have it, no one dies! Nothing for Mary Whitehouse to worry about at all really. But it have been a four parter. And there was some nonsense about mind triumphing over matter…

Production values were different. Victoria’s farewell was affecting. The idea that she was too terrified to continue is an ironic flip to all the gutsy Liz Shaws, Sarah Janes, and Leelas who were given rubbish send offs by writers who just want screamers. In Liz’s case no send off at all! Well not everyone can have a gruesome Peri/Bill demise. Imagine! Married to Brian Blessed! Or watching Harold Saxon preparing a fry up.

The animated helicopter ride does make you wonder what that would have been like in live action. Yes, I think of 12 and the mechanical horse.

Future echoes… not simply base under siege… Inferno, Seeds of Doom, Robots of Death… Waters of Mars, Oxygen, and The Well. My feeling is previous ‘siege’ stories were more monster based whereas these stories deal with primordial. Unfortunately, with Inferno, they tried to make the primordial literally into monsters. I shall never forget the look on Benton’s face…

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u Really glad you drew attention to this. I realised that we don’t have the animation and so have ordered the DVDs from the library. Really keen to watch it. It might be the story I remember from when I was young..

cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

the animated arms are a bit distracting.

I think they should have cut to the remaining actual footage of Oak and Quill’s gas attack (kindly preserved by the Australian censors.) It is still absolutely terrifying.

Your library system sounds impressive!

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u We do have a good library system. Can borrow from any library in the state which is handy though Fftd is in our local library. I have seen it on the shelf, did not realise that we did not already have it.

cjeers

Janette

[winston @winston]

@janetteb  @ps1l0v3y0u     Libraries are great. I love our local library, in fact I could live in the library surrounded by books and archives and dvds. Ours now lends out life preservers and park passes and gives weekend craft kits to kids. They give tech help which I have needed now and then. They also have a Lego club! My librarians help me get all the Doctor Who dvds. As I said ,it is a great place.

My other favourite place is my local charity shop where I have found 3 Who coffee mugs in the last few weeks. One Daleks, one with the 11th and yesterday one with the 13th Doctor. Who is the other Whovian in town ? Why are they giving away their collection ? Is someone else giving them away and why? A Who mystery in my small town.

stay safe

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@winston @janetteb

I did dispose of a K9 keyring when our neighbourhood put on a ‘yard sale’ for Oxfam a few weeks back. Bought by a kid who said his mum loves Who.

Life Preservers… I know that’s not what you mean but I immediately think of the Victorian gentlemen’s cudgels ala Anthony Trollope!

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u You would be thinking of Phineas Finn? I was a young teen when the family inherited a 50s vintage black and white tv set and The Pallisers, (BBC) was airing along with such classics as War and Peace and I Claudius. (oddly it was several years later that I discovered Dr Who)

@winston I love our library and try to actively support it as a volunteer. I rarely borrow books now the children are older though but I do buy plenty from the book sales. There is a lovely cafe outside the library, and the culture heritage centre downstairs where I go every week to record a podcast so I spent quite a bit of time in the complex and it has became such a community hub. Libraries are going through a process of reinvention to become community centres which is wonderful. (during the heat waves in 2019 the library extended their hours so people could escape the heat or bushfire danger.)

you are lucky to find Dr Who merch’ in what we in Oz call Opp shops. I almost never find any. I did see a Dr Who backpack recently and almost bought it but changed my mind. I don’t think it would be used by us. I was happy to see that it has been bought so someone else is enjoying it.

cheers

Janette

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

Finn finn Phineas Finn. Oh yes.
And I Claudius! I still remember the continuity announcer’s warning before the fall of Sejanus: ‘scenes of bl**dy mayhem!’ I think Jean Luc Picard always looked rather different to British audiences. And Caligula had barely got a look in by that point!

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u I was about 11 or 12 when i watched I Claudius but because it was ABC, (Australian Broadcasting Commission) Mum thought it was “respectable” until the ABC announced that they were censoring an episode. She got a bit jittery about my watching it after that. I think I had to skip one episode but watching it later don’t really see why the fuss. Perhaps we have all just been desensitised by GOT and the  like.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

Claudius. I can think of 4 or 5 quite horrible moments, done in such a matter of fact, unshlocky manner that the memory even now is really unsettling. But the ‘principal’ Caligula episode did have one scene, which received so many complaints, the offending seconds were cut immediately by the beeb themselves. And it was never restored. Quite possibly destroyed immediately. I’m not particularly outraged.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb @winston

earlier companions in opposition to The Doctor.

Not seen the movie for some time; and no plans to soon. So, I’ll start with…

Ace… *not really critical but kind of antagonistic. However, if anything, The Doctor is critical of Ace, as the first ‘supered’ companion. Ok Romana and Susan were technically Time Ladies but hardly supered at all.

Mel… do I have to? Propensity to force feed carrot juice does not equate to criticality.

Peri… ** yes. But can you blame her? The unfortunate outcome of many insane production decisions.

Turlough… *more simply antagonistic and unsympathetic. I suppose you might say the Universe was in a permanent critical position to 5.

Nyssa… not at all. Poor little endling adopted by 5. Literally. But no one ran with the idea, unless there was a brief nod in the change in costume in Snakedance and Mawdryn Undead. 5 ignores her. Equates to negative *

Tegan… *** heck yeah! Too much though. Then she got possessed by The Mara… I always thought that was very undersold by the writers… did JNT lose his nerve? But this was The Fam mark 1; you really don’t want to expend too much mental energy. She finally ran away in abject terror. Can only have been The Mara who dragged her back to The Tardis.

Adric… * toddlers can be critical

Romana… * #1 obvs. Permanently. But non human. Romana #2… interesting in that Baker started off very uncritical and then quite… and then they were married. Did that impact the writing… well Tom was apparently pushing his weight around by then. Romana’s ace card was the psychobabble chorus with 4. Inverse of exposition. The writers couldn’t keep it up.

Leela… * mutual criticality/incompatibility. Trouble was she was so damn useful. ‘Leela! Shank this reprobate good and proper.’ Finally shacked with Andred. Or was she really interested in Rodan?

Sarah Jane… ** could be extremely critical but only when well written. Given ludicrous final story.

Unit mob… not really companions, not even Harry.

Jo… nah

Liz… **oh yeah! But again, underwritten/undersold. What a waste.

Earlier, the production values and show development means the question is very different. And there are many companions I don’t really know. And a lot is missing too.

Zoe, Susan no.

Victoria driven by fear * and Steven, perhaps? He was a handful as I remember.

Jamie, Ian and Barbara** developed in occasional opposition to Doctors 1 & 2 as the titular character developed.

Interesting exercise.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u that would explain why I did not find that episode so shocking. I was watching the edited version from DVD or maybe VHS. I think my s/o bought me the box set one Christmas or birthday.

Re companions. Barbara could be quite critical at times but as with Sarah Jane it depended on the writing. I felt that the writers really let the character of Sarah Jane down as her introduction was promising but she was reduced to screamer with twisted ankle as time went on and lost some of her spark and backbone and yes she definitely deserved a better final story as did Leela and Romana II. I have barely watched the later Tom Baker episodes. I thought the writing went downhill after Douglas Adams left.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

The Leisure Hive

I thought I’d indulge myself a bit before diving back into the Chib endgame. The temptation is to luxuriate in Hinchcliff/Holmes but really what does that tell you? Holmes could write dialogue and Mary Whitehouse got unreasonably annoyed. Instead I thought I’d examine the evidence behind my reaction to The Chibnall era, and look at 4’s last series, #18, the start of The Jonathan Nathan Turner’s tenure.

So, Douglas Adams had departed for The Restaurant at The End of The Universe, and Chris Bidmead became script editor, declaring a desire to go back to sci fi basics, and coming across rather like Graham Chapman imploring the rest of the Python crew not to be silly. At the time I thought bring it on. The reality was quite different.

Rather than Manichaean tutelary beings (don’t you just hate those), Chris makes entropy and collapse the season’s theme; this was to be the end of the Baker era. So, no jokes made at the expense of legless daleks or detachable Movellan power packs but actually there’s not really that much science. If Nation and Adams had thought about it, they could have gone for the triple crown in Destiny of The Daleks, and made some very relevant comment about the problem of evolving a biological wheel. Chris’s contribution seems to amount to ‘you better watch out cos I’m sure the chaos is gonna get you, yeah.’ Most of the series actually dabbles unashamedly with fantasy stylings.

The big changes are down to Nathan Turner: question marks on Baker’s collar and a new scarf); new gaudy screechy titles; Adric the Jammy Dodger; K9 blows up repeatedly before it’s finally written out; ugly new synthesised incidental music; and a pitch at the Australian market in the erm body of Janet Fielding. And the ‘Death in Venice’ long panning shot at the start of Leisure Hive was JNT’s idea. Bye Tom. We’re off on holiday!

The Leisure Hive rarely gets a mention and there’s a good reason for that: it is barking mad. David Fisher drops tachyons on us but, quite honestly, this is a Gilbert and Sullivan non stop psychobabble fest. Oh well. Quite a lot of fun though.

So, someone is trying to sabotage the Argolin Leisure Hive, the sole economic activity left to a race defeated and sterilised in a nuclear war. As a metaphor for (pre Thatcherite) post industrial Britain, that’s pretty damn brilliant. Turns out criminal elements of the Argolin’s arch enemies, the Foamasi (not quite an anagram of Mafioso) want to bankrupt the Hive so they can pick it up on the cheap. We get odd glimpses of reptilian claws and eyes, and a human ‘skin’ found hanging in the wardrobe: all unintentionally hilarious.

Then there’s the Argolin’s heads, which resemble ice cream cones crowned with bejewelled top knots. When all the sprinkles have fallen out, the ice cream dies. I assume this is another reference to holidays but then, strictly speaking, Argolins should melt shouldn’t they? Or get attacked by gulls.

Turns out that the Tachyon generator is a front for an attempt by a genetically engineered crypto fascist to clone an army of himself.

Well, this is actually a tasty and powerful mix, sadly a little incoherent, but you have to admire the ambition.

When I first saw The Leisure Hive, on the back of seeing the rerun of City of Death and reading Bidmead’s sci fi manifesto, I wasn’t convinced exactly but I thought I’d give the series a chance. Unfortunately, next up was Meglos and Full Circle. Then I was denied access to a television for a few months. I’ve only just seen State of Decay for the first time. It’s pretty bad.

David Fisher seems to be quite a good writer: I need to check out his work on series 16 and Creature from The Pit.

Did he not want to work with JNT, who did seem to upset a lot of people in a very short space of time? It has also been pointed out that JNT was uncomfortable with established writers. Remind you of anyone?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Further on with Series 18: State of Decay

Entropy

A fairly large pocket universe discovered by impossible coordinates.

A smaller one, collapsing.

Hard science at beginning and end.

A supered companion lost and a decidedly un super one gained

Bracketed by hardish (for Who) stories by Fisher and Bidmead; forming a sandwich for some extremely runny Camembert… sorry, fantasy.

Meglos. Do I want to see Tom Baker in cactus form again. No.

Full Circle. Do I want to hear Lalla Ward screaming at rather duff giant spiders. Not really. Alzeria is vaguely reminiscent of the Land That Time Forgot, or perhaps a deconstruction of the spaceship on the hostile planet trope. Which could be clever but I’m not sure anyone got it. I’m not sure I did at the time. And just when you thought you’d seen the last of Adric…

State of Decay. Not seen this before. I was temporarily in a household which objected to Who. It happens.

This story has a mixed reputation. No one is very keen. Some people compare it to The Horror of Hinchcliffe/Holmes but actually that itself could be quite varied. In my opinion, even the detractors are being extraordinarily kind.

It’s a spaceship on a hostile planet story, the hostility coming from a vampire beneath the spaceship which looks like a castle. Double take. WHATT??? THAT’S a SPACESHIP??!!! I would never have guessed. The vampire is the last one of its kind, defeated by The Time Lords at the dawn of time, well before The Jaggeroth, The Carrionites or The Racknoss. There were billions of years to spare in the olden times. Room to spread out and behave irresponsibly, bwahahah: a bit like driving in the 1930’s. Question is, this must be preCambrian at least, so why the folk memory of vampires? Passed on buy molluscs and fungi presumably? What’s with the bats?? And the Vampires are ridiculous. Entropy gets a kind of look in via Grimm’s sound law, so Commander Sharkey becomes Vampire King Zargos. Sigh.

They BIG problem with State of Decay is episode 3. By then, it’s SO obvious what happened/what was going to happen/but no, The Doctor is required to spend most of the ep having a slumber party with K9 gossing about stuff he should know already, but checking the fine print with The Tardis Library, cos you would, wouldn’t you?

Let’s face it, this is stuff that Tom clearly doesn’t want to engage with. There he is, looking at the prospect of the next scene with Matt and Lalla, hair kinda giving up, thinking ‘it’s just me! I might as well be on my own…’

It’s almost worthy of Chib really, though not quite as dire as Underworld. Has no-one realise Underworld was so bad?

Having said that this is the low point, things actually look up after this though the general trend is downhill. But Chris does his best: and no one had yet imagined what the likes of Eric Saward might do to the show.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Series 18 concluded

The Great Entropy Expedition ends with ‘Keeper of Traken’, a story about an ideal society which seems to exist through the force of sheer niceness, and ‘Logopolis’ wherein it is revealed that The Universe is actually kaput and only held together with chewing gum, gaffer tape and Maths. Only then does The Master, no longer Hot Smoked but wearing the skin of Nyssa’s dad, decide to shake the Universe up at, of all places, Jodrell Bank; well, a model of it, just to see if it will give in.

Now, I can’t say I like either of these eps. I saw Keeper first time round and the fantasy stylings struck me as quite dull. At least the writer gave Sarah Sutton some proper lines and Adric promised to be not quite so useless. Logopolis is barking and yet not nearly as enjoyable as The Leisure Hive. Even now, does anyone know what Chris Bidmead was doing with this? Apart from killing off Tom Baker?

But these two were preceded by Warriors’ Gate, which I missed first time round, and comes with a fair rep. It had a difficult gestation with arguments between the showrunners and both writer and director. But it looks, if not stunning, then still very striking.

So, we have arrogant Leonine time-sensitives who Walz off with Romana and K9 after they’ve stuck two furry fingers up at a feeble crew of gitty humans reminiscent of the crew of The Nostromo. And they all live in a yellow submarine… sorry in pocket Universe, like the inside of a ping pong ball. And it’s in an even worse state than our one even after The Master got his mitts on it.

Otherwise, what the hell is happening? I suspect the Lion people (who do remind you of Ashildr’s friend in Woman Who Lived) deliberately shipped the rubbish humans up in the plughole at the end of Universe knowing THEY can get out easy, but the morons can’t because, as K9 keeps reminding us, the Universe is collapsing.

So the cats escape to Valhalla where cat lady Romana decides to feast with them for all eternity. You would have thought that should be Adric, but Lalla would really much rather dodge that vaunted desk job on Gallifrey. At least Adric get’s to deliver the apt and immortal line ‘I feel so useless!’

Then Tardis dematerialises for N Space though it’s not really explained how. The mechanics had supposedly been quite fraught until then. Lost in the rewrite maybe?

The ep is a curiosity, walking the walk well for early 80’s Who, but can’t actually talk. The whole season is a mixed bag, treading water until Tom was gone, without a nailed on classic like City of Death/Ribos Operation/Fang Rock etc. However, each of the next three series did manage one pearl each, even with JNT in full sail; Barry Letts was actually still executive producer for season 18. Having said that, production decisions and poor quality control really began to take their toll after 1981; the Davison seasons also contain at least two utter clunkers each. I won’t be reviewing those!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Moff… I come to praise Moff not bury him.
There were those who thought he was too clever. Clever in the Nuwho is what psychobabble was to Classic.

There were those who missed Tennant. Tennant was the new Tom. Interesting that Hinchcliffe/Holmes are never really praised for ‘making’ Tom. Most of those who say ‘I liked Tennant’ probably wouldn’t know who Stephen Moffat was.

There were the ‘big friendly red button’ and ‘no body dies’ issues.

There was the ‘writing for women’ thing. I can’t say Moff’ and Amy was worse than the way RTD wrote Martha. And Donna was only ‘rescued’ from cliche by Tate’s comic talent. Of course, Amy brings Rory with her. THAT is the point. Surely?

River IS more psychopath than woman. That’s an odd statement and it’s an odd statement by the writer. BUT great writing? I don’t think anyone blinked.

Clara is very odd. A guardian angel? At this point I can understand some people getting fidgety. In hindsight. For a long time she was a mystery wrapped in an enigma. So much so, you do think ‘why write that?’ I say meta. Others go straight for the ‘offensive’ button. And Moff DOES raise the older man question with 12. And he is there in the sacred cattle byre wielding a meat cleaver: kissograms, child abduction, religion, WW1, Bechdel Test…

Good writing? You bet. Did he garner lots of praise as well? Certainly.

Is he writing about aspects of himself? This is the real accusation. It’s a sci-fi show. Ideas. Where do you get them? You can only have so many bases under siege. You can make daleks levitate and then what? But people who go on and on about emotional depth are soap addicts. Cos where people get emotional. They just think they can call themselves critics.

If there wasn’t other stuff happening at the Corp, it might not matter. But there’s always stuff happening at The Corp. If the alternative had worked, I wouldn’t be writing this. But Whittaker came with Chibnall and vice versa. Maybe a Lady12 could have been Fay Marsay. Or… Freema? Or Orla Brady??!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Mara Stories.

I suspect the snakes were about to raise their heads… whenever we get underway again.

So, early 1980’s… other people may have different views but the three ‘peaks’ of the Davison era must be ‘Caves’, and Chris Bailey’s Mara Stories. I know Earthshock had impact (see what I did there) but to say it was flawed would be a mumbling understatement.

There again, flawed and Who go together, even in the age of Nuwho. 1970’s: The Robots of Death rests on the premise that a lunatic wants to kill people using Robots. 2007: The Doctor has to set up a video call with a 38 year delay in Blink and it’s not preposterous at all. Don’t spoil the fun.

Opinion: Earthshock is NOT fun because the dialogue is ridiculous and the various parts of the story never really join up. Caves IS fun because the dialogue zings, the direction is brilliant and little touches like John Normington’s strange asides to camera somehow… work. The trapped Peri subplot is appallingly exploitative but it IS of it’s time, I suppose. The Magmabeast… is it worse than Mestor or The Myrka or The Tractators?

Therein lies the big problem with both Mara stories. The snake is BAD. This was the early 80’s; Michael Grade would soon have to decide if Buck Rogers or Dennis Watts would be the future. Who apparently demanded monsters even when, like Magmabeast or Primord, they weren’t necessary.

Beyond that, this is a matter of suspending belief… when credence and storytelling itself is the issue. The monster IS the mind. Any mind. It can manifest in innocence. It can be conquered and then recover itself through arrogance, indolence and complacence.

Kinda is revered and Snakedance, in comparison, rather denigrated… by the critics: the fans love both. I can’t see the difference. What is that about?

If you want to knock either, go ahead. This is the birth of woke, I suppose. Colonialism bad. Elites bad. Militarism bad. Scientific method bad… depending on your perspective. Spiritual enlightenment… that gets about as good as you can get.

Now, this not really Who of the past or the future.This could cut Mary off at the knees and garner a tumbleweed moment at a Tory Party Conference. Do fans really want to hear The Doctor called an idiot, or have him locked up for hours on end, or see a companion (Nyssa) sidelined for entire episode presumably because 5 rescued her from being an android and no-one told the script-writers…? Apparently they did, because it gets a thumbs up well on the way to the scale of Blink. Well done Jonathan! Not sure how you did it. Eric then. Thank you for not going violently doolally, unless it was actually intended to be a sunday school picnic until Tegan started chewing on her strawberry lace and the snake vomited various flavours of Angel Delight in soft focus.

Also, Simon Rouse and Richard Todd are brilliant in Kinda, bearing in mind the parts would be completely impossible to play straight. Martin Clunes in Snakedance is a revelation. He not simply sold teenage ennui effortlessly but made it more sexy than Nyssa’s new kit or Tegan’s really rather fetching shorts. Not that I ever took my eye off the ball.

But Chris Bailey throws everything at both stories and the actors respond. There’s so much there that you might think ‘oh it’s too much, how the hell could the count them out and count them back establishment’ cope. But everyone, with a remote interest in the show, approved. If Russ tried that today you should expect a tirade.

Just good writing, good acting, be careful with the effects.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@ps1l0v3y0u     Re Moff:

I like clever writers, whether book or script.   No such thing as ‘too clever’, in my view.

(I’ll qualify that:   I don’t like writers who show off their ‘cleverness’ by deliberately using incomprehensible words or phrases, that’s just egocentrism in my view.   But that’s more likely to happen in text than in a script).

I do like original dialogue, and I love irony.   One of my favourite scenes is the American Diner in Hell Bent, with the Doctor and Clara, where it becomes apparent that one of them can’t remember the other, but we don’t know which one until the end.  And this is the really clever bit:   The dialogue works equally well both ways.  It’s also sad, and sweet, and poignant.

Probably the best example of clever, witty dialogue anywhere is Yes, Prime Minister – all of it.  It takes a lot of talent to keep that up for a whole series.

I’ll stick my neck way out and contend that Moff was writing for all genders, women as well as men.   Of course I’m going way beyond my limits there, since I ain’t a woman.   But to me, the Companion was just as important in Who as the Doctor, right from Rose onwards, and of course the companion was always a woman.   Oh, I’ve just realised, you don’t mean ‘writing episodes to appeal to women’, you mean ‘writing women characters’.   Well (adopts Strax voice), they all seemed perfectly normal to me.

Except maybe River Song, who was more a villain than a woman.

Candidates for a female Doctor 12?   Well, Missy springs to mind  (there would have to be some complicated mindswap/regeneration thing going on there of course, but who says Moff couldn’t pull it off?   Michelle Gomez certainly could have).

Since you mention Martha – maybe.   A little young for the Doctor, possibly?   (Yes, I know, Rose is now the Doctor (probably) but this is ten years later).    Tasha Lem – oh yes, absolutely.   (I thought of her in this connection previously).    My other pick was Liz 10  (Sophie Okonedo) but she was probably (I’m speculating) too busy to want to be tied down to several seasons of Who.  Would’ve been interesting to watch the reactions from – some quarters.

(Afterthought – I think I was mistaken, there wouldn’t have been any complications with Michelle Gomez, since Missy first appeared after the 12th Doctor did.)

[syzygy @thane16]

@dentarthurdent and @psiloveyou…. (Oops)

I think that description of “the mind is the monster, any mind” is a great interpretation. I’m reminded of “not every ….statue but ANY statue.”

I also think “too clever” was a bitter throwaway at Moffat & I recall many mothers in the 70s yelling: “don’t be so clever” which may’ve meant arguing either very well, or not at all; possibly being too shy or insufficiently shy; or talking or even writing too much. No one on the bad end of the yelling could figure it out! 🙂

Emotional depth was key to RTD & Moffat. I too loved those scenes with 12 & Clara & as you say, Arthur, the poignancy worked either way. Her acting throughout that period beat the crap out of so many of 1960s/1970s/80s companions (to me), but that’s partly because of the nature of seasonal Who scripts  & script expectations…..?

Oooh, yes, Okinado would’ve been perfect. Perhaps not the fairy- floss-pastel optimism of Whitaker?

Certainly, we should agree that Soaps are worthy of a lot of criticism- but not too much because Soaps are very, very difficult to write well. Was it Moffat who originally wrote for a variety of soaps in the 90s writer’s rooms w/o credit? & there are many soaps seemingly as long as the life of a Tardis.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@thane16  syzygy   I’d agree, soaps are likely very difficult to write well.   Not least because they come out every night (some of ’em, at least).  How can anyone keep coming up with fresh original dialogue on that schedule?

And then, each of the half-dozen storylines gets cut up into 5-minute chunks which get screened intercut with the other 5-minute storyline chunks, once per episode.   How can any viewer become engrossed in the story under those conditions?

And the format then inescapably leads to the story becoming, either melodramatic, or banal.   Since there isn’t time to develop any real ‘atmosphere’ around each 5-minute chunk of story.

That’s my 10c anyway.  I could be all wrong about soaps since I ‘never’ watch them.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@thane16

‘Mind as the monster.’

Better than a man in a rubber suit. Or actors with facial prosthetics, my problem with Stat Trek, though The Founders were well realised. And now quite scary. ‘Solids’ are chaotic and dangerous. Democracy is chaotic and dangerous (to whom?)

So, the reason why The Mara were so good. Badly realised in the early 80’s. I wouldn’t like Russ to break them. Sutekh was originally a mind monster, and so was the Fendahleen. Perhaps too The Fury from the Deep. Others?

The other mind monsters are of course human. Caves of Androzani has both Morgus and Jek but I struggle to think of many effectively rendered human Who villains. Luke Rattigan from (Sontaran stratagem) and Van Statten (Dalek) are earily prophetic it would seem. But before them I can’t think of many incredibly wealthy death wishers accept Harrison Chase from the Seeds of Doom.

But who else wouldn’t you dismiss as an idiot lacking real motivation. You might say Stahlman from Inferno (now) echoes Farage or Rees Mogg (let’s all poison our ground water) but therein is the issue with the story: his behaviour is so irrational he HAS to become a Primord. Otherwise, the target of Classic Who is more normally bureaucracy or blundering overpromotion.

Even the Master as psychopath, rather than simply devoted to The Doctor’s demise, seems problematic for some fans and John Sim gets the blame. I loved the performance. A great mind monster you would think but then was Taren Capel (Robots of Death)?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Chris Boucher… long time since I’ve seen Blake’s Seven, so I shouldn’t really comment… the dystopian background was refreshing but ‘we’ve found an amazing derelict spaceship’ was dumb.

Chris’ contribution to Who is ‘Face of Evil’ which introduced Leela, ‘Robots of Death,’ exhibiting a Mary Poppins level of perfection, and lastly ‘Image of Fendahl’ which with Fang Rock and Sunmakers (both edited by Holmes) rescued a rather dodgy 1st Graham Williams season.

Watched Face and Robots so far: Face does plug the Trekky ‘crazy computer’ trope with the twist that The Doctor is to blame for said cyber insanity. Leela is a revelation and not simply her hunting leathers, actually well written by Boucher and Holmes who was also obviously eager to write for a companion worth the effort. But yes there are more than one lingering shot of the expanse of Louise’s thigh. There also seem to be some obvious cuts for violence. Mary Whitehouse was on the warpath.

Tom, of course, thought he could do it all without a companion. No exposition. Holmes disagreed, so Tom was a bit petulant with Louise at first, but the dynamic is much better than her costume would suggest.

So, crazy computer has separated the landing party of a colony ship from the onboard technical staff, to reflect it’s own broken programming, though ostensibly to breed a super race. Unfortunately the alpha landing party seem likely to eat the feeble omega IT crowd, and the only female in evidence is Leela, who they want to be their leader (and presumably principle incubator) She doesn’t fancy it and dashes into the Tardis.

Face is a lot of fun but pales in comparison to Robots. This is fantastic in terms of science, design, dialogue and acting: Ark in Space, Pyramids of Mars, City of Death standard… or better.

Quibbles… the villain appears to be a loon. Pity we never discover Taren Capel’s rationale: it wouldn’t have taken many lines to make him appear as sane as… ooh Elon Musk. Taren Capel starts a revolution on a piece of heavy duty plant. Musk buys a social media platform. Maybe it made more sense to gloss it all over in the mid 70’s.

And a shout out to Azimov’s The Naked Sun! Respect!

Fendahl next.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dentarthurdent

Image of the Fendahl.

Reference points: The Stone Tape; Lovecraft; Quatermass and The Pit; it’s horror.

And it’s well done. It’s Chris Boucher. A loss to Who. He went to Blake’s 7 and The Corp wouldn’t allow writers on two simultaneous broadcasts/productions.

They like making things hard for themselves don’t they? I am reminded of the ditching of Gatiss/Whithouse/Matthieson. And we haven’t seen Alderton back yet; she should be a keeper.

It’s also easy to read too much into the departure of Hinchcliffe and Holmes. The BBC was under the cosh. And how do you follow that act?

Fendahl is good. So was Rock and Sunmakers. But the quality of writing, aside from Boucher, Holmes and Dicks, may be the reason we lost Louise Jameson. People also don’t stay forever.

Anyway, I prefered Who to Blake, and this is a really good ep. The next two series continued to be uneven.

Actually this isn’t quite as good as Face of Evil, and nothing can touch Robots. It’s good because of the script: Boucher/Holmes have the gift of underwriting. You go ‘huh?’ Then you depart for a bit of fridge logic, come back and it still works fine.

There are problems. Everyone says ‘Hinchcliffe’, though there are nods to The Demons and Planet of the Spiders; in that respect, the horror is almost a pastiche.

But there’s more to it. This is quite deliberately constructed. Whose idea was it to have the Fendahl migrate from ‘the fifth planet’ to Mars to Earth? Cos I’m thinking Sutekh is a Fendahly Osirian. The Fendahl ‘eats’ life itself… the death of death is life?? I’m also reminded of the noseless ones from T’floox and whaddya know! The whole shenanigans has only been wiped from Time Lord records!! You would think post Moff Cartmel activity has been secretly raiding this era amongst the other more obvious references.

Great writing for Leela too; except she’s pulling out all the stops for the Doctor, new kit and everything, saves his life, gives up, puts on the old kit (musta been in the tumble dryer) and he says ‘I like the new dress!’

So, the writing is on the wall for Leela (sob). They needed more historicals, where Louise could dress up and get laffs.

Otherwise: Edward Arthur is more than a little eye-rolly am dram. Dennis Lills starts out as a German Spaniard but end up Welsh. Wanda Ventham looks happy to be painted gold ten years too late (she auditioned for Goldfinger): it’s a brutal end for her. Stael (the character) is allowed to retire to the Billiards Room with a Webley and a Single Malt, but without the Billiard Room and scotch.

The Fendahleen are ridiculous. I mean, Myrka level… depth.

But it’s as good as anything apart from Ark, Genesis, Pyramid, Robots, Talons, and later, City. It’s as good as Rock or Sunmakers, far better than the rest of the same series.

And Chris WAS good. Apparently Tom took the mick during the read through and thereafter he got very self-conscious.

Why don’t writers stick with Who? Discuss.

[Author]

Posts