On The Sofa (6)
This topic contains 1,013 replies, has 103 voices, and was last updated by 
Craig 10 years, 11 months ago.
-
AuthorPosts
-
5 July 2015 at 13:23 #40960
Anonymous @
Of course, the haircut. Thank you -you & others have said that before & I should have remembered that!
(plugging in my memory chip….3…2….1…Now)
5 July 2015 at 15:19 #40969Hello @purofilion. Thanks for greetings. I realise now that I have been gone for 6 months. Why? When I retired (or so I thought) and emigrated from the sunny southern colonies to the wintery northern colonies, I assumed that my days would be dedicated to civilised discussion with fellow Enthusiasts. But, in the words of Michael Corleone:
But, fortunately, I have managed to escape (hurrah!), and return to the happier pursuit of Who-related viewing.So, off to watch Earthshock. Nyssa! Tegan! Adric! and…oh, yes, as our wise emperor @craig directs, no spoilers!
5 July 2015 at 17:39 #40972@bluesqueakpip @Purofilion Completely forgot about the minisode ! Rubbish memory on
occasions 🙁 Thanks for fixing me on that point! But not sure which bothers me more?
The memory thing or the fact that there isn’t that mystery around which Doctor brought her
to the Singing Towers? Still, really looking forward to some new River and 8th Doctor
adventures!5 July 2015 at 17:50 #40973@lisa, @purofilion, @bluesqueakpip et al–
The press releases suggested that in order to preserve continuity the Doc and River as the Doc is going to be essentially kept in ignorance of River’s identity, so they may not even have that many scenes together, depending on how they do it. But however they do, it’s clear the dynamic between McGann and River is going to be significantly different to either Tennant or Smith because he won’t ever be able to know who she really is. I don’t think there’s going to be much ‘Hello, Sweetie’ and ‘Spoilers’ stuff.
It is going to be interesting though.
6 July 2015 at 09:10 #40989@bluesqueakpip Yes, there was not a new haircut or a new suit, he was wearing a tux.
@lisa loving the Tom Baker theory
6 July 2015 at 09:16 #40990@crieshavoc Ender’s Game and it’s entire series was my first love. Completely agree with the similarities, especially to the 9th Doctor, in which I see Rose as his Valentine, the Master his Peter. Even can see the TARDiS as Jane.
6 July 2015 at 09:18 #40991Sorry, cut and paste doesn’t work for me on this site…not sure why? I meant the above to be @crieshavok
7 July 2015 at 06:49 #41034@theviking Sorry that link isn’t working for Deep Breath; I don’t know whether you might find that episode on Youtube or not, but it might be worth a look. Good luck!
@crieshavoc That could work as a pattern for the development of a young hotshot brain into some one breaking free from rigid expectations that understanding your enemy is permission to completely obliterate him to the next step — moving into his headspace sufficiently to refuse to destroy him, and to try to fix it so he’s not your enemy any more, or at any rate threatening to you.
@whisht Yeah, like that. Good bonkers!
@phaseshift That works too — that the Doctor and the Master might once have shared an ambition to do good in the universe by using their Time Lord strengths, and then come to grief and separation over some attempt to do this that went horribly wrong, with blame shared between them. Which reminds me — was the Master also kicked out, or did he leave on his own?
@purofilion As to the Master’s family’s “lands” setting him higher than the Doctor, socially and economically, the scene in the barn in Listen certainly suggests modest beginnings for the Doctor, for whatever reason — born poor, or lost his parents and living in a boarding school, etc. — and the Doctor’s arrogance is always grounded (according to him) in his superior intelligence, rather than in wealth or high birth — which makes it a kind of *defensive* arrogance, since we know he didn’t do well at school, didn’t know how to fly the Tardis for a while, and so on. On the other hand, he knows an awful lot — but presumably it’s from bombing around the universe for 1000-2000 years, not from his early schooling where he almost flunked out.
And I’m not so sure that he has never behaved in a cowardly fashion in his life. Sometimes a person learns that as a bedrock value from having failed to be brave and having seen what happened to others as a result; so then that becomes one of his rules — never be cowardly (again). You could see grabbing a Tardis and running away as cowardly, if it was earned punishment that he wanted to avoid.
8 July 2015 at 01:28 #41055I came across a little factoid that on July 8 in 1969 the Doomsday story was first aired.
This particular story was when Rose was lost and Rose was BAD WOLF.
The beginning of Bad Wolf was of course the wonderful werewolf story ‘Tooth and Claw’
however it wasn’t the first episode where the brilliant device was used.
I mention this because I hope that the BAD WOLF references will continue since I have
always loved the way Bad Wolf was woven into the Doctor Who epic and I am hoping that
the Moment will cotinine to be aka Bad wolf!8 July 2015 at 01:32 #41056BTW — I also decided to mention this since tomorrow is July 8th and so I just felt a
implied symmetry in a sideways upside down backwards timey whimey way. 🙂8 July 2015 at 02:58 #410582nd BTW – I would also very much like a lot more Moment/Bad Wolf! just saying….
(I think that covers it? 🙂 )9 July 2015 at 18:18 #41077Everybody, I come to you with a dilemma.
Just discovered I got a distinction on an OU module, albeit because they substituted and rounded up my continuous assignment, and despite only scoring 84% on the exam (not the first time they’ve done something like that, I assume its because I have a learning disability and I’m not sure how I feel about it).
HOWEVER, this does mean I can stop being quietly seethingly angry with the love of my life for deciding that we just HAD to get gas engineer, electrician and his mother’s husband (which also meant his mother) during the week before the exam.
So, my question is, should I celebrate with lovely cold cans of larger that have, after all, been in the fridge for over a week, or a nice cup of tea? 😉
9 July 2015 at 18:41 #41079So, my question is, should I celebrate with lovely cold cans of larger that have, after all, been in the fridge for over a week, or a nice cup of tea?
Is this a trick question?
9 July 2015 at 19:12 #41080@whisht I’m liking the “Young Galifreyans’ fanfic idea. I can imagine that the Master
was never ok with his fears as a youngster and possibly that was why he chose the name
Master as a power name. Its a sort of indirect way to compensate for feeling fearful
and inadequate under the pressure. Plus the Galifreyans messed with his mind so
possibly the Doctor had great empathy for his sensitive friend. I’m sure the Master
appreciated this kindness and friendship. It cant be easy to feel like an outsider.
The Doctor on the other hand had Clara whisper in his ear that fear was a companion
when he was a youngster. So he wrapped his head around his fears a totally different
way.
Therefore I don’t think the Master ‘mastered’ empathy for his enemies in playing war
games but the Doctor could.
But whether the Doctor when on a runner to escape the Master is still a maybe for me.
I always imagined that the Doctor just got fed up with the Galifreyans and went
out in search of finding some new Gurus and/or adventures.9 July 2015 at 19:36 #41081@blenkinsopthebrave- hic! 🙂
9 July 2015 at 20:05 #41082You have worked long and hard and done phenomenally well.
I haven’t.
I am drinking because its summer.
Later in the year I’ll be drinking because its not summer.Hope the iced tea didn’t go down the wrong way causing that hiccup!
;¬)
9 July 2015 at 20:17 #41083@whisht: you make some good points.
usually, I drink larger in summer to cool me down. I drink red wine in summer to warm me up. Spring and atumn I put on a jumper and do both.
and the only tea I drink is Long Island.
thats not actually true but now I’ve said it, I really want a Long Island ice tea…
9 July 2015 at 20:32 #41084great rap at the end!
9 July 2015 at 21:36 #41085Not necessarily because you have a learning disability – they look at everyone’s marks as a whole, and if less than 5% have a distinction, the exam and coursework go off for moderation or something.
If the moderators decide the exam was tougher than usual, or the coursework marking was on the stringent side, you can easily end up with a distinction despite being slightly below 85.
Very well done you! OU distinctions aren’t easy to get. 😀
9 July 2015 at 21:36 #41086@miapatrick – that is one awesome answer.
I need to find a good musical reply.
However, instead (after an hour) I’ll reply…. on the Music thread
9 July 2015 at 22:41 #4108910 July 2015 at 10:09 #41099@Bluesqueakpip- thank you for clarifying that. I feel a little reassured. I actually turned down extra time on the exam because I felt being allowed to use my laptop was enough adjustment- it’s nice to feel it’s earned. It’s great knowing someone who’s done all this as well. (On which subject, I have the level three creative writing starting in October. And if there is one thing I know about you, it’s that you know drama…)
11 July 2015 at 11:34 #41110Hey, @juniperfish! Hope all is well.
I’ve just referenced you in the Series 9 Official Spoilers blog, but didn’t do an ‘at’ in case you didn’t want to go there. I was riffing off your ‘Clara is the Doctor’s daughter/granddaughter theory’.
11 July 2015 at 11:57 #41111Hello everyone
My name is XtremeZ, nice to meet you 🙂
I am a big fan of Doctor who, so much that I have all of the episodes on DVD 🙂
I have two questions I would like to ask:
1- Are the Doctor Who comics and prose canon ?
Now, first of all let me explain what I mean by canon.
I mean are the events that happen in the comics and prose are in the same universe of the show ?
And are the events that happen there happen to the same doctor that is on the show, or is he
another version of him ?
2- Do we know anything about the doctor’s religious beliefs ?
And if we do, what are they ?
NOTE: Please accept my apologies if this is not the right place to ask my question. If this is not the place, then
please direct me to a place where I can ask my questions.
11 July 2015 at 12:35 #41112Halloo and welcome to the Forum. Hope you have a great time.
To take your last question first, I think he has said (particularly in episodes during Tennant’s time) that we don’t really know what happened at Easter, for example: “as in, you should have been there; it’s nothing like what you thought…” etc
The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit:
When Rose and others were concerned about whether ‘the devil’ existed -Dr Tennant was in a lift shaft checking out the base of a mine and he said he “hadn’t thought about it all that much.” He was trying to calm down Rose and the scientist who was in the lift/shaft with him. He asked them what faith they followed but didn’t offer his own opinions on a specific belief system. Certainly he doesn’t see himself as a God, though he understands, perhaps, that souls are memories left behind for others, echoes from within our own hearts. I think (& its purely my opinion) that he doesn’t have a religious belief -a formal one at any rate. I just can’t imagine Time Lords having that. However, the Doctor himself is reconciled with the idea that whilst he’s seen so much “across the universe,” there is still so much more to see! (or is that The Lion King?
~<*\*>~)Back to your first question, yes canon is often discussed here and I think that the comics and related prose are not canon. Even some ideas posited in the movie with McGann have been floated as canon and possibly rejected -the idea that the Doctor had a human mother, for example. The second part of your canon question is very interesting… If a story is written, say, with Baker’s Doctor, then possibly, whilst never referred to in telly episodes, Baker could indeed have experienced those events within his time stream -but then to discuss that & wonder where those events happen in his lifetime is to discuss canon and what it means!
Anyways, enjoy. I’m not sure if I’ve been all that helpful but I think others could answer your questions. @ichabod if they have time, perhaps. It requires a timey whimey approach.
Kindest, puro
11 July 2015 at 13:41 #41114@Purofilion and @xtremez
The impression I’ve got over the years is that the Doctor was brought up very firmly within a class system. And the ‘academic’ class that he aspired to (the most prestigious role for one of his class) largely made Professor Richard Dawkins look like a devout Anglican. 😈
‘Religion’ is something for the lower orders. The belief-system of the Time Lords appears to be utilitarianism, crossed with ‘everything has a scientific explanation’. Except their idea of utilitarianism includes the idea that one Time Lord is far more important than any number of people of other races.
But that’s largely my impression, rather than anything definitively stated. I’ve got a vague memory that one of the Gallifrey TV stories referred to gods as something the lower classes believed in, there’s a batshit crazy priestess of Pythia in The End of Time and there’s the distinctly less batshit crazy Sisterhood of Karn. The Doctor himself starts out with an ‘everything can be explained by science’ viewpoint, but by the Smith incarnation has seemingly learnt to appreciate that a deep religious faith doesn’t actually equate to ‘nutter who is about to burn you at the stake’. 😉
Canon -there isn’t any. This is a show about time travel. Within the not-canon, the TV is canon until any current producer decides otherwise, the Big Finish radio series is canon until any current producer decides otherwise (especially for the Eighth Doctor, whose adventures mostly take place on radio, and the books and comics are ‘stories told about the Doctor’. They may or may not be ‘true’, in whole or in part. 😀
11 July 2015 at 15:44 #41117@bluesqueakpip and @ XtremeZ (welcome btw) — I think Pip pretty much has it spot on. The first three or four Doctors at least are arch-rationalists — probably reaching its most direct manifestations with Pertwee vs Ms Hawthrone in the Daemons. The Doctor is initially a scientist and a kind of pseudo-academic and my impression of Gallifrey is that it’s like a really, really big Oxbridge university, with much of the pomp being not unlike the sort of drivilesh that you have to put up with if you go to these institutions. So, I think initially we’re looking at a kind of Dawkins-esque ultra-rationalism with religion being something ‘primitive’.
But there does seem to be something more spiritual, or at least less strident in the AG iteration. The Doctor as Lonely God, the Christian imagery that RTD (rather playfully) flirted with, the fairytale mythos of the Moffatt era and so on. I think it possibly has its roots in some of the tropes of the last McCoy season and the subsequent Virgin adventures etc.
As to canon, I think Pip is right that the only answer to that is that if its been granted some form of licence by the Beeb then it’s canon unless we’re explicitly told that it isn’t. There’s actually very little over the years that I could say can’t be more or less comfortably slotted into canon. With the possible exception of the Cushing movies and there have been attempts to do that also. (I personally don’t think it’s necessary to do so.)
12 July 2015 at 04:10 #41119Ah, thank you and, @bluesqueakpip for correcting me on that one! (I hope @xtremez that you read those remarks and ignored my own!)
I thought the audio books and even the 8th film weren’t explicitly canon – I can also see how various show runners have tweaked certain concepts, introduced others and deleted still more and that this is seen as canon.
I agree with you on the notion of Gallifrey -or at least TL college – as a posh science institute like MIT. Slightly off beat but definitely science ‘all the way’: a kind of “Religion sucks, suck science instead” thing (that could’ve been much better) but I enjoyed Tennant’s response to the others in the Satan Pit -his consolation, his general snarky-ness about religion (in earlier eras) put to the side as these frightened people confess how they’d “had a belief, gone to church with their mum but let it slide eventually.”
Serious ‘discussions’ about religion didn’t really happen after that episode, except perhaps in SitLibrary where Miss Evangelista’s voice and the last ‘echoes of her life’ splice and repeat and Donna is shocked by this: possibly she says, “is this all there is after we’re gone?” -or something like that. Of course, at my age, I could be imagining everything and embroidering conversations to give me faint hope that there is, indeed, something after this life.
“there’s a batshit crazy priestess of Pythia in The End of Time”
I love this @bluesqueakpip -nearly lost my dessert wine at this point ~~<<**>>~~ That entire episode evoked for me a group of quite solitary ministers (Sinister Minister @whisht?) believing their own hype about being at the top of a carefully crafted hierarchy & wanting to stay that way at the expense of any other life forms.
Whilst the Doctor abhors their attitudes, he can’t help but continue the consequences of his own indoctrination at the Academy.
As the show is marketed as family viewing (at least in Oz), I imagine writers and show runners want to tread this path carefully. A certain proportion of viewers are religious people and so murkying up the distinctions is necessary to keep it ‘light.’
! ?
Kindest, puro.
12 July 2015 at 07:42 #41120I’m surprised I haven’t seen anything about this on this site yet but LEGO has announced a Doctor Who pack for LEGO Dimensions. The video game is set to release this fall. I’ll post a link to the trailer and a separate link to some more gameplay footage. This game will be available on all consoles including last gen consoles and the Wii U. The “starter pack” is very expensive, however, at $99.99 American. The pack that allows one to play as Doctor Who is $29.99. So for American Doctor Who fans, it will cost about $130. To put that in perspective, The Wand Company universal remote sonic screw driver props only cost $100 plus shipping. To be honest, I have the 10th Doctor’s Sonic Screwdriver by the Wand Company, and while I do enjoy looking at it, occasionally “scanning” random objects, and turning the TVs off in retail stores, I don’t touch it very often. I think the $130 would give me more bang for my buck if I spent it on the LEGO Dimensions Dr. Who set. But this game isn’t going to be a pure Doctor Who experience. It seems like the Doctor Who pack is more of a sort of expansion than anything. I don’t think I’ll be preordering it but I’m definitely interested.
12 July 2015 at 08:01 #41121@purofilion
@bluesqueakpip
This is what I been thinking about the issue:
The doctor travels a lot between episodes, and we don’t know how long does has it been since we last saw him
and what happened to him while he was traveling, so we can assume that during his travels he could have encountered indecent that changed his beliefs and believed in God. It may not be mentioned and we might never know if it happened, butit is still a possibility. Here is an example for this: When the Eleventh Doctor first appeared he loved fish and custard, later on we rarely we see him eating them. We can assume that during one of his time travels he found something he loved to eat more then fish and custard and it became his favorite, we don’t know if this did happen, but we can assume it.
The exact same idea can be said about his religious beliefs, we can assume that during his travels he could have encountered Is that possible?12 July 2015 at 08:16 #41122Hi again 🙂
Sorry about the comment that is above this one, I don’t know what happened. Can someone delete it ?
I don’t know how to do that.
And how can I call someone ?
12 July 2015 at 08:30 #41123@jimthefish we seem to have encountered a problem with the post above #41121.
I think, personally, that whilst it’s possible that the Doctor discovered something, I think it’s unlikely? At the end, on the console as he saw Amy (when he was returned to a young 11th Doctor) there was a bowl of fish fingers and custard.
It was there in his mind as unchanged as Amy was. Some things stay the same and so his upbringing -a very scientific one organised around utilitarianism as @bluesqueakpip suggests – is consistent with the idea he stayed a believer in the science that shaped him. He respects peoples’ beliefs, however, which makes him a special individual.
He’s tolerant and engaging. I recall that wonderful episode where Rory, Amy and the Doctor get ‘stuck’ in a hotel -everyone gets picked off one by one, saying “praise him.” There’s a lovely Muslim doctor in the hotel, an optimist, a pragmatist and a believer in science, someone who the Doctor was terribly upset about after her death. She chose to die alone, though. And she believed in something: Amy believed in the Doctor; that he would always be there -she was the girl who waited whilst Rory remained untouched. But so did the Doctor.
That suggests a lot about the Doctor’s beliefs.
I think that just because we don’t see the fish fingers and custard, it doesn’t mean he’s found something better to eat: this is his food of choice when he’s regenerating or ‘cooking’. When Tennant was in the same position, he needed the tannin in the tea. I wouldn’t assume anything because I don’t necessarily see it.
Anyway….just my tuppence worth.
Umm? Call someone? How do you mean?
Kindest, puro.
12 July 2015 at 08:57 #41124The way you use @ and then the member’s name to get his attention.
12 July 2015 at 09:37 #41125ah right, well, you were/are already doing that. Just @purofilion for me or @jimthefish or whomever you wish. It just happened I was ‘around’ when you joined up.
Of course, people have real life and other stuff and may not be able to get back to you straightaway. But I think @jimthefish and @bluesqueakpip did respond to your two questions today.
There is a private message function which allows you to simply click on their avatar or picture and this takes you to the page which says “Private Message.” That’s an option.
Kindest, purofilion.
12 July 2015 at 12:31 #41126I’ve taken the rogue html out of your post. It usually creeps in when you cut and paste from another website or occasionally application.
@purofilion–
I actually think the likes of MIT are probably a lot more relaxed and easy-going than the Academy on Gallifrey. I think Time Lords have been shown to be obsessed with pomp and ritual, which is why I likened them to Oxbridge colleges. I’ve just finished reading The Unexpected Professor by John Carey (great book and the man is something of a hero of mine. What a Doctor he would have made) and he has an anecdote that during a series of sit-ins at Oxford in the 1970s, one of his duties as a Warden was to nip down in the middle of the night and keep an eye on what the miscreants were up to. But he couldn’t just throw on a dressing gown — no, he had to don the full regalia of his office — gowns, sashes etc to do so. I think the Academy would be like that — dogmatically obsessed with ritual. You probably couldn’t go to see your tutor unless you were wearing the correct gown, cowl, collar and carrying the banana of Rassilon in your right hand. This is what the Doctor was rebelling against — but maybe explains why he does tend to wear the same costume throughout a regeneration — the idea of having some kind of formal, identifying attire has been ingrained in him.
@bluesqueakpip & @purofilion & @xtremez
RE. the religious thing. I just don’t buy this ‘evidence from absence’ argument I’m afraid. To take the fish fingers and custard analogy, it’s not possible to assume that the Doctor suddenly took against the food just because you don’t see him eating them in every episode (or saying that he still did). Similarly, there is a clear throughline throughout Doc 11’s time with the food — eats it for first time in 11th hour, seen eating it again in Power of Three and then isn’t there a call-back to it in Time and the Doctor? Unless you’re specifically told otherwise, and we weren’t, you have to assume that previously held distinctions stand.
Similarly with religion. The First and Second Doctors, while not making any explicit statements either way, are pretty strong adherents of empirical reasoning and show no inclination to any kind of religious belief whatsoever. The Third Doctor in the Daemons at least comes out pretty strongly for Science with a capital S over religious and magical belief. There’s nothing in the rest of the BG Doctors to contradict this point until Doc 7, who seems to have a bit more of a mythical edge about him towards the end as we started to see the first glimpses of the Cartmel Masterplan. During the RTD era there is a flirtation of religious imagery but I think that’s largely to do with RTD who, while being an atheist, is clearly fascinated by it. But that doesn’t mean the Doc has suddenly become more religious but is maybe, as Puro says, just a bit more tolerant of it than he was in his 3rd incarnation. But then again, we’re back to the 12th Doctor saying ‘you’d only start worshipping it) which strikes me as quite Pertwee-esque so maybe he’s un-mellowed with age again.
But it goes back to the old adage (once again) ‘if it ain’t on the page, it ain’t on the stage’. It’s perfectly the possible the Doctor found religion in some unseen adventure (the assumption usually being Christian, I suppose. But what if he suddenly converted to Islam, became a Wee Free, Scientologist or Adherent of the Cult of Skaro?) But it’s by the by, because if you’re going to try and argue for it you need at least some evidence as your starting point. Otherwise you’re Neil Fox on Brass Eye.
We have had this conversation before on these boards, of course. Personally what I find most bemusing is this desire to claim the Who narrative as a religious parable of some kind. None of the other SF big-hitters have to deal with it.
12 July 2015 at 13:03 #41127Look, I agree with you totally on the religious thing. After all, there was the wonderful comment in The God Complex where the young doctor says “I know, Muslim, run and hide, right?” I’m paraphrasing horribly, but I think there was a subtle point to be made there -Christian, Muslim, Judeo-Hebraic, the Doctor just doesn’t fit that ‘perception.’
I do remember a past conversation I had with another member about this and thought “Will I be accepting and just generalise?”
I decided I would be -otherwise I start to become annoyed and that leads to head clocking!
But it’s interesting as you say: why this particular show? in watching Farscape with Zahn, Aeryn and D’Argo, you just know there’s no Christian belief: hell, there’s no earth either. I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact the Doctor is a kind being, he looks human, the show’s been around for 50 years and we’re in the part of the world that’s the present and informed by a Judeo-Hebraic, Christian Islamic western culture. But theses could be written….
Re: MIT students/ post-grads. The ones I met at partays in the 1990s were not rockin’ cool (oh how I wished they were!) -they happened to be formal, anti- democratic nutters. It was a weird time. I even have photos of them in expensive Madison Ave suits with pocket squares while others from nearby city colleges are wearing joggers and training pants.
Whooha -2 parties and I was out! <<*|*>>
12 July 2015 at 13:07 #41128@jimthefish @purofilion @xtremez
Jim, there was also the “we don’t need the Americans, they’ll only start praying” dig at Dubbya in Death in Heaven.
I do agree that it is slighly peculiar this desire to make Doctor Who a religious parable. Funny that we’ve been touching on the Norse elements that cropped up in Series 5 & 6 which we all saw as SMs desire to end the GodDoctor elements.
As we’ve both mentioned you could mount a more effective argument of the Doctor as Buddhist rather than a follower of any of the Abrahamic religions. I think the Kaled Gods of War get more mentions, and I can’t see him at any of their meetings either. 🙂
I’ve seen bits of Trek get pulled into this type of thing, but you just have to mentin that Kirk killed God in Star Trek 5, because Shatner decided the Universe wasn’t big enough for both his and Gods ego!
12 July 2015 at 13:11 #41129<h2 class=”user-nicename”>@jimthefish What about the beast 10th’s “an act of faith” speech ?</h2>
<h2 class=”user-nicename”>and how the 11th’s simply explains him as being the devil, while Amy</h2>
<h2 class=”user-nicename”>didn’t seem to take it seriously, he was indeed serious.</h2>12 July 2015 at 13:17 #41130<h2 class=”user-nicename”>@purofilion</h2>
I don’t remember him saying that.I know he liked the girl doctor who died who died alone, but I don’t remember him saying that quote you mentioned.
12 July 2015 at 13:20 #41131@phaseshift @jimthefish @xtremez
indeed, the Doctor as the Lonely God concept: something SM was tired of as much as the Oncoming Storm theme -he’s found his place (it took 12 episdoes for this regen) as The Idiot in a Box and I like that, particularly as a picture has been painted on the other thread of the Doctor as a wanderer accompanied by The Silence. There’s more complexity to this; it signifies a fresher era with greater nuance and I’m personally thrilled.
12 July 2015 at 13:25 #41132@purofilion
I personally the 9th suffering figure.
He just got out of the time war, and knows what it means to suffer and knows true pain.
But you still didn’t answer my question:
are you sure that the quote “I know, Muslims, run and hide right ?” came from the god complex episode ?
Because I watched it twice and didn’t notice it.
Mind you I watched it on DVD, not sure if it makes a difference.
12 July 2015 at 13:28 #41133@xtremez it was something along these lines:
“I’m a Muslim. I know! Don’t be frightened”
It was a Toby Whithouse episode and exceptional in my opinion as I particularly enjoyed the young doctor’s response to our Doctor (as it were!)
Others like @phaseshift and @jimthefish above are right -they’ve access to all of ‘Who History’ 🙂 with comments such as “the Americans would just pray for it” being in that last episode. As well as 12’s other quiet asides….. But he doesn’t mock religions.
As I said up thread, it wouldn’t achieve a great deal.
12 July 2015 at 13:30 #41134and that’s it from me! I’ve exhausted all possibilities but also, in my TZ, I must head for the pillow!
Kindest and g’night
puro
12 July 2015 at 13:55 #41135@phaseshift, @purofilion and @xtremez
That’s interesting and funny about Trek — and I suppose it’s a show that’s probably killed more ‘Gods’ than other. It also struck me that one of the interesting things about Firefly was that it was a SF show that directly engaged with religion and is set in a universe where Faith and superstition is still definitely a big thing. Similarly BSG, which explores it even further. For my money, Baltar in BSG is one of the best, most interesting, and most conflicted characters of any SF show (and possibly of any show). In any other show he’d be a cardboard villain, but he’s a profoundly troubled and weak man who constantly wrestles with guilt, and the conflict of Faith over Reason.
I think @purofilion is dead right when she says that Moffatt has taken great pains to remove the ‘Lonely God’ religious undercurrent (which was always meant to be taken metaphorically rather than literally in my view anyway) and replace it with something more anarchic, secular and based in fairytale rather than religious mythos.
@xtremez — can you be a bit more specific in your citations as I’m not sure which episode you’re referring to. But as to an ‘act of faith’, you can look back to Curse of Fenric — the haemovores could be stopped by an act of faith and this was what the Doctor was advocating. But it didn’t amount to an expression of religious belief (notably it didn’t save the ostensibly religious characters in the show). It just meant personal faith in whatever was most important to you (e.g. you could see McCoy silently reciting the names of previous companions as his ‘faith’). And, as is currently being discussed on the other thread, there are probably more allusions to Norse mythology in the show than there are Christian ones.
I’m assuming you’re referring to the God Complex with ‘the devil’ line. I think it’s pretty clear from that episode that the creature is as much really the Devil as Sutekh from Pyramids of Mars is really the Egyptian god Set.
12 July 2015 at 14:12 #41136@jimthefish I’m referring to the Satan pit episode and the episode, in that episode, the 10th said that he is going down there as
an act of faith, and maybe the reason why he is here is to be proven wrong, or something along those lines.
In the Satan pit episode, there was a creature called the best, he claims to be the devil. The doctor gives the “I’ve seen dime gods” speech,
but the beast keeps laughing, and even though the doctor defeats, or seals, the beast, at the end of the episode he says he doesn’t know what
that was. Skip foreword a few season and enter the 11th, when he mentioned the best he referees to him simply as the devil.
My theory is that something must have happened to make the doctor accept that that thing was the devil, what happened ?
we don’t know, but I guess this thing is left for our imagination.
12 July 2015 at 14:57 #41137@xtremez — Yes, I think that line is definitely open to interpretation. Just not sure it’s enough to sustain a ‘does that mean the Doc has found religion’ angle.
12 July 2015 at 15:26 #41138Uh, hi.
I heard this is where I go when I start… o3o Is it?12 July 2015 at 18:49 #41139Hi @xtremez
When the Eleventh Doctor first appeared he loved fish and custard, later on we rarely we see him eating them. We can assume that during one of his time travels he found something he loved to eat more then fish and custard and it became his favorite, we don’t know if this did happen, but we can assume it.
I think the Doctor gets a completely new body when he regenerates, which means he would have different taste buds too. 11 tries a lot of different foods to find out what he likes in his new body before he finally settled on fish fingers and custard.
Apples are rubbish! I hate apples!
But 10 liked apples when he regenerated.
Eleven might have found he likes Jammy Dodgers more than fish fingers and custard? He gives a great speech to Clara sitting on the clock tower in Time of the Doctor that might help explain that.
Everyone knows the doctor regenerates, which is a lot like reincarnation, imo. So I have a bonkers theory that Karma plays a small part in what the next doctor will be like.
(This might have some spoilers if you haven’t seen BG Who).
Doc 1: always dressed neat and Doc 2: always looks disheveled (not the best example, but bear with me please)
Doc 2 destroyed a Tibetan temple or was there when it happened and Doc 3: like @phaseshift said talked about Tibetan beliefs
Doc 3 didn’t bring the customary scarf as a gift and Doc 4 wore an extra long scarf
Doc 4 loved Jelly Babies and Doc 5 liked vegetables and had allergies
Doc 4 wished he could have played cricket and Doc 5 did play cricket (possible reward for Doc 4)
Doc 5 was polite and Doc 6 was pompous and vain
Doc 5 didn’t like his companions (imo) and Doc 6 got the perfect companion for his personality in Perry
Doc 6 and Doc 7 I have no theories for that yet
13 July 2015 at 02:45 #41164@barnable @xtremez @phaseshift
Amazing what a good night’s sleep does!
I think Barnable is right with the food, clothing and other allusions -they remain just that. We also don’t know what food he may enjoy later & as @jimthefish and I mentioned up thread, on the console, at the very end of The Day of the Doctor, is a bowl of fish and custard. We could say that it’s something he saw in his mind remembering when “this new face” first saw Amy. And then Amy with her long red hair appears. It’s a fitting conclusion (@JimTheFish, I’m embarrassed I forgot that Firefly has a crew with a strong faith! -thks for the reminder).
Metaphors and allusions are the key to Who, I believe, and so when you watch The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit (an absolute favourite of mine too, actually) we really don’t know what that creature is. The voice, in haughty English tones, is reminiscent of my Christian Study school where people spoke angrily about sin and faith and what happens to those who do a lot of the former with none of the latter!
Even at the very end of that episode when Tennant smashes the jars, he never stops asking questions. He’s constantly curious about the universe -and the words “beyond the universe” pique that curiosity. Still, the Doctor isn’t entirely certain of the creature’s origin, but in the end, he believes in “one thing, and that’s Rose.”
As for the Christian tradition, the Doctor did say he’d been to the crucifixion -this was during the Easter Special, some years back and commented on the fact “that people would be amazed to know what really happened.” That sounds like a playful statement, something written by RTD in a Special that was problematic on many levels.
Doctor 11 is very interested in sciencey people: when he meets the doctor in God Complex and she’s funny, composed and clever, he does his “I’ll call you” hand signal and later, when she says “I’m a Muslim don’t be frightened,” Whithouse is pointing out the obvious attitudes some people have about Muslims and Muslim women. She’s a doctor? And well read and sciencey and until the Doctor arrives, appears to be the leader of that little band of terrorised goofballs -and she’s definitely not goofy.
Nor is she the terrawrist in the room -that’s the creature. Or so we think. By the end of the episode, that ailing creature is ‘forgiven’ and understood. Another point to be made there, creatures, monsters, Christians, devils, these are all individuals: we have to dig deep to recognise what makes them tick -if, in the case of devils, they exist at all, or are a particular human construct. I remember The Sea Devils in Doctor Who and I recall later, that the Silurians were the earth-bound group of the species and how, when the Doctor meets them again (with shades @gamergirlavatar!) he’s fascinated and determined to protect them.
Now of course, a Silurian female is married to her human companion: that’s a marriage made in heaven! I guess it demonstrates how the show has progressed and that as the Doctor continues to find new creatures, some terrifying or perhaps evil, they’re mostly wondrous.
The reason you won’t pin the Doctor onto a religious tradition is because he’s never going to fit into that construct: he’s alien for a start, so following a Christian god that is supposedly made in “man’s image” could seem anti-paradigm. Also, it makes for a damn fine story. In The Satan Pit, the creature, speaking to the terror inside all the characters, highlights our fears and how we overcome them. The dialogue between the Doctor and Ida and the other characters is fantastic -so claustrophobic and tight with tension. The air vents the crew slides through to escape the Ood, provide a panicked backdrop for excruciating fear and abject misery, calibrated further as the Doctor is out of range and the Tardis gone forever.
For me, the most beautiful part of that episode was Thomas Macaulay’s poem from the Lay of Horatius following a crew member’s death:
“And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?”
And indeed that two-parter is a story about heroes willing to die to defend the lives of soldiers and companions preventing an enemy from entering the gates. Fortifications crumbling around them and with poor defences, they “close ranks” to return to the Captain’s base and as a result of Rose’s combat and the Doctor’s rediscovery of the Tardis, they’re “saved and rewarded” much like Lartius, Herminius and Horatius in the lengthy poem. Ida Scott reminds me of Horatius -she’s stranded and when saved “all of Rome [the remaining crew in the spaceship] sent forth a rapturous cry”
Kindest, puro
13 July 2015 at 03:07 #41165Halloo and hi to you. Yes, you can say ‘hi’ here and you can also go to the Memories page and mention where you first came upon Doctor Who. There’s a companion thread where you can discuss your fav companion from NuWho or Old.
Enjoy 🙂
@jimthefish I know we’re entreated to keep the On The Sofa discussions to a minimum -I think – so apologies for my last post. I had some wrong quotes from one of the episodes mentioned above from last night’s post aaaaand then I went into narrative mode! (oops)
I finally managed to watch the final episode of Farscape S1 last night (bit difficult with school holiday telly movies and the family wanting to keep an eye out on Wimbledon and the Ashes).
So, onto Season 2 tonight: boy was it a cliff-hanger!
-
AuthorPosts
The topic ‘On The Sofa (6)’ is closed to new replies.
