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  • #68367
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 not to mention that there’s a lot of literary theory stuff and intertextuality that can be applied. For example, are the ‘theories even more insane than what’s actually happening’ rendered invalid by Moffat’s (in particular) intent? Are a lot of negative fan reactions down to an old fashioned insistence on ‘Influence’ (insisting on the primacy of established canon) over appreciating old and new Who as works created by, and reflecting, and being reflected by, the contexts in which the episodes are made? See, I’m working!

    Yes I think most of the quotes of that usage involved irony, if not a touch of sneering. The word tends to indicate a kind of subordination: to a Knight, to a woman in the mostly illusionary courtly idea of a lover being subordinate to his lady (unlike a husband to his wife). Part of the comedy is the idea of such subordination… So the leap to middle-class landowners is interesting.

    The way the course is structured, this block ends at the end of this month, the next one is three months long, (this first one is two months) I think that is partly to allow for Christmas. So after this, assignment one, the next one is due at the end of January.

    #68371

    @thane16

    I don’t think anyone would argue that a persons male- or female- (or fluid)-ness doesn’t matter, just that whatever they choose to do is not defined by gender. And (as we discussed some time ago, re voice timbre ATCs) there are times when qualities women bring to a task are quite specific. But that example is germane: it is not, in any way, stereotypical or confining – quite the opposite, it is one of the most high pressure jobs in aviation. Research made the insight, not several centuries of treating women as chattels or whores.

    You really need to watch Dickinson

    #68373
    syzygy @thane16

    @miapatrick

    over appreciating old and new Who as works created by, and reflecting, and being reflected by, the contexts in which the episodes are made? …

    Oh good Lord! The intertextualposttextual-analysis would age me. But I can imagine a dalek-y ‘voice’

    you are not pro-gress-ing inter-textually speak-ing & so exter-min-a-tion is the final anal-y-sis. Ex-ter-min-ate.

    @pedant Yes! we did discuss ATCs. For a second, I was madly attempting to uhm, gee, ‘work out’ what it stood for. 🙂 But that came easy.

    The fluidity of say, a performance by a dramatic coloratura of  The Queen of The Night or a beenindruckend fundamental of a 100Hz demonstrates the tessitura of female and male vocals we talked about before.  My thoughts beyond that specific area of expertise are lacking in spirit: My learned brain knows what femininity or masculinity is but maybe a tiny portion of that mind is broken.  So I seek other’s opinions. In reading comments on the other thread, it’s a good thing to seek!

    The link by @toinfinityandbepond is a thing of beauty.

    Thanks for Dickinson. It’s so beautiful & like everything you’ve ever suggested it will affect me deeply (I remember the excitement from Buffy & The Leftovers and 13 RW)

    But 1st I need to get the iphone.  Or an ipod:  forces me to walk without my old CD Walkman -yet the latter has better acoustic. I’m under strict instructions to NOT buy Spawn a gift. The hide of the little s*it! I arrived home with the shopping & I got the look. Not THIS look. But this: “you bought THOSE chocolates. Why did you buy these drinks? Or these lollies?”

    My answer? Because I survived high school. Twice  🙂

     

    #68393
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16: I’ve just read that Barthes died after being  knocked down by a laundry van, and I can’t help imagining a disgruntled author pulling off his disguise and cackling manically as he drives down the street…

    #68395
    syzygy @thane16

    @miapatrick

    I had to read that twice.

    “the birth of the reader must be required by the death of the author.” I had to Google this & read IT twice too. 🙂 I couldn’t cope with Derrida or Foucault so I stopped at ‘F’ 😉

    If you think of the Doctor’s speech with Missy & the Master on kindness, that really sums up Barthes’s idea beautifully. Well no, I don’t understand that, but it sums it up. I’m very certain of this  🙂 And that particular speech, showing the range of Capaldi’s ability & tonal control, breaks my heart every time I hear it.

    I think however one interprets the ‘text’ it breaks one’s heart.

    #68396
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 just in the later stages of my first essay, and experiencing my usual nightmare that my tutor might simply point out that I have completely misunderstood the critics I’ve quoted, I wonder how far I might push the concept of reader response over authorial intent…

    To be honest, when I write fiction I usually don’t work out what I’m doing till after half way through the composition – on some occasions, until someone kindly informs me during a workshop (I usually attribute it to my subconscious, and take the credit 😉 ). And one thing that drove me crazy during the last seasons of Game of Thrones was when the series runners waded into the raging debate about the latest episode spelling out what the characters meant, what their motivation was until the whole thing seemed to mean less and less the more the creators spoke up.

    #68397

    @miapatrick  @thane16 @thane16

    I wonder how far I might push the concept of reader response over authorial intent…

    *Circles bait*

    *Swims away*

     

    #68399
    syzygy @thane16

    @pedant @miapatrick

    😀

    It’s Twisted

     

    #68410
    gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar

    @thane16 Hi syzygy, I just saw you mentioned me in a post just over a week ago. Sorry I didn’t reply back right away, still working on a lot on my end. I only want to clarify my point of view and have that be it because with the amount of hate crimes accouring in the United States right now, I would feel more comfortable if we just didn’t talk about it again. In your post it seemed like you thought my option on PC culture was negative or inaccurate and from looking back on those comments that is a completly fair point of view. However I didn’t mean it like that. I don’t have a problem with PC culture when done right, I really think it’s a good thing. I feel like with all the tension in the world today, people fighting for equality and people fighting because of hatered, this is a grand turning point in the direction the world will turn. I’m wanting equality to win so when I say things like I don’t want people to be judged by their gender or biological structure it’s because I want them to be judge on the context of their character. Now I don’t like to defy myself with labels. I like to look past all the labels and my own body to see who I am in my mind set. I believe that your thoughts, memories and actions make up who you are and I try my best to view other people that way. I’m not perfect, I make mistakes but I allows acknowledge when I do and I try to learn from them and a huge reason on why I believe this way is because humans haven’t been responsibel with the labels we place on eachother. We live in a world where if someone mentions a label referring to race, gender or sexual orientation someone else will make an assumption on that individuals thoughts, memories or actions. I don’t want to see that done any more however, I agree with you that if someone does harm someone because of (for example) gender than we have to say something and help who was harmed. I’m sorry for what happened to you, I know you said mentioning that wasn’t for attention, that’s not why I’m saying this. I’m saying this because I am sorry that we live in a world where that can happen to someone. I agree with you that these things happen because of people being who they are. People judge me for being who I am but labels mean nothing to me, so when people mention them, it’s like getting hit with a ton of bricks. I know it’s not the same for everyone and I have been there for people when I have to be. I’m not trying to brag, if this wasn’t the topic I would have never said this. The only reason I thought The Doctor would be the same as me is because from the first time I saw The Doctor I related to him. There’s been no other character in fiction I have related to this much. My friends view me like companions view The Doctor, I live most of my life as a hermit, I have dressed like all The Doctors in my lifetime (even as a child before I’ve ever seen the show) and when I watch the program I can regualy finish The Doctor’s sentences. Not just because I watch the show as often as I do but because so many of the things he’s said I have said before I even heard of Doctor Who, and not just big, philosophical speeches but simple things like throwing away a manual because I “disagreed” with it. I know, a lot of people would call me “strange”. I just thought that when The Doctor changed from a male biological structure to a female one, she would react the same way I would if I changed from female to male. Look, I’ve ranted on long enough and there is a lot I removed from this posting. I logged in to talk about the new trailer that came out. I still want to do that before Doctor Who Day is over from where I’m at. Please understand that I only typed this up because I agree with you. I do believe in kindness and I absolutely can’t stand myself if I every fail to be that. I’m really trying to be there for who ever needs me, I just don’t want people to think I don’t have everyone’s best interest at heart. Thanks for letting me rant, again I don’t like to get political here. I mostly come here for Doctor Who.

    #68423
    Missy @missy

    @thane16

    If you think of the Doctor’s speech with Missy & the Master on kindness, that really sums up Barthes’s idea beautifully. Well no, I don’t understand that, but it sums it up. I’m very certain of this  🙂 And that particular speech, showing the range of Capaldi’s ability & tonal control, breaks my heart every time I hear it.

    I think however one interprets the ‘text’ it breaks one’s heart.

    Well, it breaks mine, and that ‘s not the only speech.

    #68425
    winston @winston

    @missy That speech from Capaldi also chokes me up every time I watch it.

    #68426
    Missy @missy

    @winston

    Quite understandable. I feel the same about the WAR speech and Husbands of River Song. His lines are so wise and

    delivered with such emotion.

    What a  loss Steven Moffat is to the programme.

    #68432
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just rewatched Jonathan Miller’s 1968 version of “Alice in Wonderland”. For obvious reasons. It, like everything Miller did, was simply brilliant. If you have never seen it, try to. If you have never seen or read anything by Miller, definitely try to.

    #68434
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    My favourite Miller production was his The Mikado for the ENO. He had a knack for blowing away tradition and saying ‘well, why can’t we stage it this way?’

    Agreed. If you haven’t read or seen anything of his, you should try to.

    #68435
    syzygy @thane16

    @gamergirlavatar.

    Mum didn’t understand. a word. you. said. 😀  Geddit?  The Master when he’s speaking to the Doctor in the speech about kindness! 🙂

    I think I do, though? You’re saying you’re like the Doctor. You relate, you dress like him…which must be awesome.  I’ve met some smart people in my life but none are really old. None have travelled outside the universe. Or even finish his sentences.

    What’s that like?

    I think the other Syzygy was just including you in the conversation?  She mentioned you because it was polite to do so. It was a conversation you’d been part of so sorry about that. It’s nice to see your name, to be tagged, when it’s a light or even a serious conversation. Kindness is all it is so she apologises profuselly, or profuseishnessly. One of ’em.

    Enjoy the new trailer. Always good to look forward to something in our future as well as our past.

    Siggers the Young.

    #68436
    syzygy @thane16

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Finally I can say I understand who Jonathan Miller is! I have Kulture! But he’s died?  I’m too late, again. And very sad.  I worry that there will be so many great, learned people -writers, directors, producers, playwrights & bands I’ll barely know. I don’t know, entirely, if we are creating fantastic new ones? We should be. My generation. Our gen has a lot of ‘stuff’ -we have food, clothing, rooves & clean water. I’m talking here -not in every part of Australia. Poverty is endemic but I know one thing, sportsmen & women are being lauded waay too much. Some sporting person I won’t name said “the Australian fires are a punishment from god.” Urgh. They can say it but it’s being reported a lot which is the problem. I think.

    I’ve also heard of The Mikado @bluesqueakpip ! All on “me own” which are words which must never be said together. Or written, but still are.

    Syzygy

    #68437
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @thane16

    syzygy, you are not too late. There is so much of Miller’s work easily available. His books, films, performances, and interviews. At least dip in and see what you think.

     

    #68438
    syzygy @thane16

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    a qualified doctor?? Wow. Thank you for all that!

    Syzygy.

    #68474
    syzygy @thane16

    Senior Syzygy here. Oh, am I a “senior” now, @pedant!

    *Beaming*

    Promised violence of the Christmas kind.

    Followed by something different.

    Syzygy.

     

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 1 week ago by  syzygy. Reason: sorry mods lines of code. Loads & loads
    #68477
    janetteB @janetteb

    @thane16 Thanks for those links. Alan Rickman was so good. The night after he died we all sat down and re watched Galaxy Quest. (I think re watched Sense and Sensibility on my own the next day.) Loved the Q.I scene. Another brilliant show.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #68478
    syzygy @thane16

    @janetteb I never saw S & S (I believe I have 2 DVDs of it. If I can find it, I’ll post one of ’em). Nor Galaxy Quest. That sounds ……interesting! QI was brilliant. Have you kept up with the new series? I love it equally. Another fab female. Speaking of……

    This isn’t really Who related . But as our Jodie Whittaker sang Yellow for CIN I can connect it.

    Back before internet & other fun we had a great show from Scotland, No**h Square (yep I really want to hide it) with Phil Davis (Sherlock & other magic), Kevin McKidd & my personal girl-crush Helen McCrory, who at 50-something is more beautiful than she was in the 90s. Then she was shit-hot & pretty, now, she’s on another level. Oh, this is Syzygy talking, not the younger one who will soon be introduced to this fantabulous show. Cold Play’s song is on Helen Mac’s radio as she’s zooming to Liverpool.

    On another note I’d mentioned Marcella? The first 5 eps seemed pretty good & then it stunk. Something ridiculous happened. So if you want it-makes-sense-telly please skip that one. That one I’m happy saying out loud. Though the words I have for it aren’t good ‘out loud’ words.

    Are we all holding up pre Silly Season?

     

    #68479

    @thane16

    I’ll just leave this here, from 2016

    Hmm. Something odd happening with that link – scroll down to post 50140

    #68480
    syzygy @thane16

    @pedant. Thank you kindly!

    By Grandma’s Hammer!

    #68485
    syzygy @thane16

    @bluesqueakpip  and @miapatrick

    Whoa. Is  CBT Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and OCAS? The Online College of Advanced Stem?

    Very confusing indeed!

    As for vowels? Oh yes, agreed – as does (loosely, I admit) this esteemed man of the people. “Subsidised foreign f**king vowels”

    High voltage swearing:

    #68486
    janetteB @janetteb

    @thane16 that left me in tears. I have yet to watch “The Thick of It or In the Loop. Both just jumped quite a few spaces on my “to watch list.”

    I recommend Galaxy Quest. It is one of those underrated gems of a film that every so often, the entire family will re watch.

    @miapatrick. I laughed when you described bad handwriting masking spelling errors. I know that trick very well. My handwriting is bad for that very reason. Spell checker has helped me a lot with spelling. I avoid auto correct as I prefer to have the errors highlighted so I have to correct them. Any form of writing that does not have the benefit of spell checker however is still stressful and of course there are errors that spell checker does not pick up. Right now I have my eldest son proof reading one of my writing pieces and he has picked up quite a few errors that slipped past the checker.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #68487
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @thane16 the outline for assignment scoring is written, in my opinion, for advanced STEM students. It’s all quite complicated. The conversation there came about because I was reminding people (and myself) that the first assignment score accounts for only 5% of the taught module score (which is itself only 50% of the Masters) so, not to panic. But they way they worded it, some people thought it was 10%, some people thought the only score that was applied was for the longer end of module assignment.

    @janetteb – for me it was just a delightful bonus! I had mixed feelings about the coming of the computer age (I had to support it, my father wrote a book about ‘Computers In Schools’  way back.) I’ve started writing notes by hand, even though it’s painful (here we see another less talked about aspect of dyspraxia) and I’d completely forgotten about the ‘give up and squiggle’ when writing longer words. It does annoy me when people go on about how you ‘learn better writing by hand’ (quite possibly, the pain really hammers it in there) ‘write better, more creatively by hand’ (actually I do better when I can write faster, uninterrupted and undistracted by ‘how the hell am I going to decipher this later?). The OU let me take exams on my computer – in my house! Very strange experience. Answering exam questions on computer I did find harder than doing it by hand in many ways. But it was readable, and I could get more words down, and when I did well I didn’t have the suspicion that the marker gave up in despair about half way through and decided to give me the benefit of the doubt.

    @bluesqueakpip absolutely. To be fair I’ve had some very patient (is that the right patient? ironically this was a word I got wrong repeatedly during one assignment) tutors about the fact that I didn’t know the word ‘than’ existed (thought it was ‘then’ for both) and all kinds of similar mistakes. And I have improved but I have nightmares about my dissertation – they do take it into account then? I hate writing shorter essays for many reasons, but the longer pieces of work are a concern for proofreading. I love reading the notes on the texts, all the mistakes that appeared in the first editions etc from actual, certified genius’.

     

    #68502
    Missy @missy

    @janetteb

    As you know, I am not a fan of continual swearing, can’t see the point especially the f and c word.

    However, The thick of It rates amongst the funniest series I have seen.  Peter Capaldi has this way of swearing that brings tears to my eyes.

    One scene in particular about face rings etc, where Malcolm  grabs a boy whose face is covered in metal, and tells him  that he’ll shove a ****magnet  down his *** throat, and watch his ***head explode! Reduces me to a helpless mess.

    And yet, his off sider Jamie (don’t know the actors’s name) I find very offensive. Why is that I wonder?

     

    #68503
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @missy his ‘shut up – shuttedy shuttedy up’ moment in his last season (I think) was a clear tribute to his Malcolm.  The man has fantastic timing and verbal dexterity, so I suppose the lesson is, if you’re going to do something, do it well.

     

    #68508
    Missy @missy

    @miapatrick

    Very true. the only other actor who reduced me to tears of mirth, was Billy Connolly. Unfortunately he used the F word much too much in the end.

    By the by, the scene about the magnet, should have read watch his head IMplode!

    I do try to get things right. *grins*

    #68511
    janetteB @janetteb

    To our British friends, best of luck with the trial of the next day or so. (I hate elections. they always seem to end in tears here in Aus in recent years at least.) I hope that the polls have been misleading and you get a better result than feared. I think the entire world needs to see one positive political outcome in these dark days, they are so few and far between.

    Cheers, and fingers crossed,

    Janette

    #68512
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @janetteb thanks, love. I’m feeling pretty pessimistic at the moment (at least I’ll either be right or pleasantly surprised…) dark days indeed. The fact that tomorrow is Friday the 13th really doesn’t help!

    I’m hoping for a small victory at least, that I’ll feel part of. The candidate I’m voting for slashed the incumbents majority from about three thousand to six hundred last time. That said incumbent has since quite, due to unexpected integrity and principle, and their new candidate seems to have no links to North Wales, let alone our region.

    #68513
    janetteB @janetteb

    @miapatrick. I hope at least that your candidate wins. Having a good local MP is a benefit. We have been fortunate here to have a local state MP who consistently polls well regardless of how the party fares because he has won so much respect locally. Right now however he has a fight on his hands as Labor is in opposition and our electorate is being punished for not voting for the self entitled Libs. Our Mayor also leans to the left side of the political spectrum. If only those running the country had half the intelligence of our local leaders. (Even half would be a great improvement) But I will not venture onto that subject as right now I am so ****** angry about the idiocy of our so called “leaders”.

    To more pleasant topics did not realise that you live in North Wales. I have very fond memories of my visits to North Wales. I took the boys “castle hoping” by local bus when they were younger.  We visited so many castles that by the time we reached Cardiff we were only too happy to skip the next castle on the itinerary and go to the Dr Who exhibition instead.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #68514
    toinfinityandbepond @toinfinityandbepond

    VOTE SAXON!

    #68516
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @toinfinityandbepond

    Just watching the election results. It would seem that Saxon has indeed won. All very jolly when it is fictional, but….

    #68517
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I’m afraid the tactic of many young, enthusiastic Labour activists was to tell people who were mildly further to the right than they were that they should ‘f*ck off and join the Tories.’

    Looks like they did.

    #68519
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip

    I am sure you are right (I have less than fond memories of the Maoist faction in student politics during my undergraduate days in the late 70s) but I was also wondering (and I ask this as an outsider) if that is more of a London issue rather than, say, a northern issue? I noticed, for example, that some of the seats in the North that Labour retained were only because the right-wing vote was split between the Tories and the Brexit party. If true, that sounds a bit like the Labour heartland has been, in essence, lost. But, as I say, I am observing from afar. Perhaps you, or @pedant, or others, might have a clearer perspective.

     

    #68522
    janetteB @janetteb

    Damn. Damn Damn. The world just got a little darker.

    Janette

    #68526
    FatManInABox @fatmaninabox

    Hmm, 2 posts just disappeared into the time-vortex so I’m reposting. My apologies if the previous 2 turn up.

    Earlier this morning, a tweet appeared on my timeline from a member of this forum. I’m not going to name, shame or tag who it was but as the topic of politics has arisen I’d like to address the issue concerned.

    Oh England what have you done?

    What we’ve done is to not vote for an anti-semitic, terrorist hugging marxist, that’s what we’ve done.

    On a personal note, I stopped voting Labour the moment they elected Corbyn as their leader and will never vote for them again while he, John McDonnel and pretty much all of the current Shadow Cabinet are still in control. I’ll detail the reason why below but first a warning – it will be graphic.

    On November 21st 1974, as some of you will be aware, the IRA bombed two public houses in Birmingham.

    One of my Aunts, aged just 19, and her fiance were caught up in the explosion in The Mulberry Bush. They were due to be married the following July and had intended to emigrate to Australia (Melbourne to be precise as my Dad moved there a few years previously following his divorce from my Mum).
    My Aunt lost her left hand and thumb, index and middle finger from her right hand. Her fiance lost both his legs – one was blown off just below his hips, the other was so badly damaged that it had to be amputated.

    The wedding was cancelled. While they had recovered enough physically to continue with the wedding, mentally it was a different matter. Things got so bad for them that they both ended up overdosing on a cocktail of sleeping pills and anti-depresents in a suicide pact. They had both phoned their parents to say ‘goodbye’. My Nan and my aunt’s fiance’s parents notified the emergency services who managed to get them both to hospital. They managed to save my aunt’s fiance. My aunt didn’t survive. She died in transit to hospital and the ambulance crew were unable to revive her.

    I’m only to aware of the damage the Tories will do. I’m already suffering due to the policies of the Tory/Lib coalition, Cameron and May and I’m under no illusions that any of that will change under the current government but I know this much – I could never bring myself to vote for that fucking cunt* with the wonky glasses who’s never been anything but an IRA apologist and continues to suck up to the likes of Hamas and Hezbolah.

    I live in a part of Birmingham with a sizeable Jewish community and as such have a number of Jewish friends and neighbours. I could never vote for that shit-munching cock-womble** who’s done fuck all to stop the anti-semitic cancer that’s growing inside the Labour Party.

    I could never, to use a phrase that’s been circulating on Twitter, throw my Jewish friends under a bus just so that I can get ‘free stuff’. Yesterday I took a stand on their behalf and pushed them from out of the path of that oncoming bus.

    Yesterday I also stood up for those who were murdered or maimed by the IRA – I voted to prevent Corbyn from ever getting his blood and shit covered hands on this country and I’ll continue to vote tactically against Labour until Corbyn and every last one of his cronies are ousted from the Labour Party.

    Yesterday I made a stand against a party who’s leader thought it was a great idea to launch his manifesto not only on the anniversary of the pub bombings but had the fucking gall to come to Birmingham to do it.

    Labour, unsurprisingly, have maintained their grip on Birmingham but I can at least hold my head up high and say ‘not with my vote’.

    On the off-chance that anyone wants to indulge in a bit of ‘what-about-ery’ – don’t. Just don’t.

    * I’m not apologising for the language so don’t ask me to
    ** still not apologising

    #68527

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    That’s more or less right, but that is more a function of our broken electoral system than anything else. Each seat is won only on simple majority (the most votes) – there is no requirement for an absolute majority (more votes than all others combine, as in France) and no proportionality (as in practically everywhere else). And people vote differently when proportionality is in play.

    Parties with some sort of anti-Brexit (or at least pro-2nd referendum) stance got 53% of the vote. the Cons and BXP got 47%.

    #68528
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave and @fatmaninabox

    London largely went Labour, or stayed Labour. The ‘red wall’ in the heartlands is breached; one of the suggestions for the loss of seats that were Labour for generations is “It is not rocket science that calling your own voters fascist scum and trying to erase their democratic vote would not end well.”

    I don’t know if the heartlands are lost for ever – as @fatmaninabox says, an awful lot of people will not vote for Labour while this current bunch are in control. If Labour can kick them out…

    … but I’m not sure they can.

    fatmaninabox – I didn’t vote Labour either, for pretty much those reasons. I can’t vote for a party where anyone wearing a Star of David is pretty much fair game for a rant on how horrible Israel is. I spent a pretty large part of my childhood in an area with a lot of Jewish families and I know how many of the Jewish kids I knew had parents, grandparents, great grandparents who came to this country as refugees. I have seen anti-Semitism. It’s real.

    And I know the current Labour leadership seemingly can’t recognise genuine anti-Semitism if it whacks them in the face with a pickled herring. Not if it comes from the Left. They can spot it if it comes from Boris Johnson or Theresa May, but they are the anti-racists, even while they’re telling someone born and bred in the UK that they should suck up the insults because, Palestinian children. Or that the real reason so many Jews were so scared they were thinking of leaving was because Jews all had offshore accounts and they thought Corbyn would take their money.

    @blenkinsopthebrave
    One of my posts went missing too. In it, I said the British people ended up with a choice between Mr Saxon and the Slitheen. I think many just decided that the priority was to get rid of the Slitheen.

    #68529
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant

    Our electoral system may be ‘broken’, but how many times do Leave have to win under the rules in force?

    We’re now looking at an absolute majority for 2016, a majority for parties who promised Brexit in their manifestos in 2017, the Brexit Party the largest single party in the European elections and now a pro-Brexit party as the largest single party.

    That’s a very consistent pattern.

    Then there’s the ‘argument’ that a 52% win is subject to three and a half years of debate and stalling, but a 53% loss is somehow instantly conclusive. We are all equal – but it seems some votes are more equal than other.

    #68538
    winston @winston

    @fatmaninabox  I do not know enough about British politicians or politics to comment but I do know a lot about “bad language” and you have impressed me a lot with that second one. I will be borrowing it to describe some equally despised politicians in my country. Thanks for that.

    #68539
    syzygy @thane16

    @fatmaninabox @winston @bluesqueakpip @pedant @blenkinsopthebrave & any others I’ve left out.

    On many levels, this is very bad. I had no idea proportional representation didn’t exist. I had no clue Corbyn was  Marxist, anti-Semitic, pro IRA.

    @fatmaninabox my sympathy to you, Your story emerged from a significant personal relationship which ended in despair. It spotlights the reality that it’s about flesh & blood, quivering loyalty & standing tall for those who can’t stand at all. I know a little about what you’ve been going thru, yet despite that, you hold your beliefs & tell what they are & why. I’m not always good with words, but I think that’s brave & righteous. I refer to Capaldi’s speech a lot lately:  “where I stand is where I fall.. I do what I do because it’s right, it’s decent….” and that’s what you’re doing.

    @janetteb did you know this about the UK? I feel hideously stupid.  The other side of the coin is that I can change that.

    We’re now looking at an absolute majority for 2016, a majority for parties who promised Brexit in their manifestos in 2017, the Brexit Party the largest single party in the European elections…

    ‘Squeak…Is it consistent though? If the wrong message was sent to the wrong people -ie “Pakis are taking all your jobs;  more mosques than Christian chapels” & a vindictive social media campaign propelled a lop-sided message, would it be appropriate to have a “do-over?”

    Also, & I’m no statistician, it’s not about “equality of votes” but the percentage indicator of those votes so if “Parties with some sort of anti-Brexit (or at least pro-2nd referendum) stance got 53% of the vote” (@pedant) & not 52% then that’s not relativist. Is it sophistry to say “some votes are more equal than others” or 52 & 53% are close enough to be good enough, especially when the message was bolloxed to begin with and the %s are pesky humans.

    Musically, D major is wonderful to compose in. C sharp Maj. not so much. And yet they’re so close.

    telling someone born and bred in the UK that they should suck up the insults because, Palestinian children.

    Absolutely! But your next sentence had me bamboozled (which is my problem!): did Jewish families move accounts off-shore or was this a deliberate ranting?

    Syzygy the Snr. So, it’s not doing the young one’s homework.

    #68540
    syzygy @thane16

    @bluesqueakpip  *”deliberate rantings by madmen” ie British Labour.

    also @pedant the bracket there  lost your name.

    #68541
    syzygy @thane16

    another qu I was too silly to ask, was “how was the referendum counted?”

    here, it’s the majority of people (nationwide) in a majority of states or a “double majority.” A triple majority is if  referendum affects people directly in a specific state & where a majority is also required.

    #68542
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thane16 Syzygy Snr.

    Good questions all. I’ll try and answer them without slipping into party politics.

    The reason you are confused about proportional representation in the UK is that it does exist, but not in national elections. There was a referendum in 2011 to change to Alternative Vote System, turnout about 42%, verdict ‘No’. So there we are. But in local or regional elections it’s often a proportional system.

    The national system is First Past The Post. The candidate with the largest number of votes wins the seat. The party with the most seats is asked to form a government. Winner takes all, basically, if the win is big enough to give them an absolute majority of seats. All the Opposition can do is ask embarrassing questions.

    I think the rejection of AV for national elections is connected with Brexit – see below – even though that referendum was five years before.

    Mr Corbyn is firmly regarded by most in the UK as a Marxist, though I believe he self-identifies as a ‘democratic socialist’. However, he was deeply opposed to the expulsion of the Militant Tendency from Labour in the 1980’s; Militant was Marxist and Trotskyite.

    I don’t know if Mr Corbyn self-identifies as an anti-Semite. Probably not. But he’s said stuff on record which suggests he doesn’t see British Jews as truly British and he has, as @fatmaninabox says, done fuck-all to stop anti-Semitism spreading like a cancer. The Labour Party (the Labour Party!) is currently being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for institutional anti-Semitism. They’ve become only the second party in British history to be investigated for this – and the first was the avowedly racist BNP.

    Note that ‘institutional racism’ isn’t the same as ‘loads of your members are racist’. It means the EHRC is investigating whether Labour’s party structure may now be set up in such a way that any British Jew who is a member of the Labour Party will be disadvantaged or discriminated against simply because they are Jewish. An example would be holding branch meetings on Friday evenings in an area with many Orthodox Jews, then refusing to shift the date when it’s pointed out that an Orthodox Jew can’t attend political meetings on the Sabbath. Another would be a default assumption that a complaint of discrimination is part of a smear campaign – because the complainant is Jewish.

    Mr Corbyn supported the IRA. There’s documentary evidence of him doing that (and supporting other terrorist organisations). As fatmaninabox says, he was so unapologetic about it that he had the sheer gall to launch his manifesto on the anniversary of the Birmingham Pub Bombings, in Birmingham.

    Brexit in a following post.

    #68543
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thane16 Syzygy Snr

    Okay, Brexit. It’s fairly difficult to be detached on Brexit, because I’ve spent the last three and a half years having people inform me that the most carefully researched vote of my life was made because I’m a racist, xenophobic, knuckle-dragging idiot. In fact, there was a point when I didn’t come on this forum because that assumption was so strong, I didn’t feel comfortable here.

    So, officially outing myself as a Leaver. I voted to leave. I still want to leave. I think the EU is heading in a direction which downplays democratic government and prioritises government by technocratic bureaucracies. In the three years since the referendum I have not seen anything to make me think my view was wrong. Instead I have seen my opponents use every legal and political trick in the book to try and avoid acting on what is now a succession of democratic votes.

    Yes, a majority of 4% is very close. However, those were the stated rules in advance of the 2016 Referendum – and there have been previous Referendums where the majority was even closer (the Welsh Assembly and Welsh devolution was voted in on a majority of less than 1%).

    Pedant is using sophistry because in 2016, the Leave/Remain question was asked on the ballot paper and the vote was counted country-wide. But in 2019 we were voting for parties, in individual constituencies. In my local area I seriously considered voting for the Liberal Democrats despite their Brexit stance because I was trying to figure out who, in my safe Labour seat, had the best possibility of unseating the Labour candidate. Apparently – if I had chosen the Lib Dems – Pedant would be using my vote against anti-Semitism to argue that I’ve now changed my mind on Brexit.

    Which is why it’s probably safer to look at the trend, and the trend is that the parties since 2016 who get the biggest number of votes have been those who supported enacting the result of the 2016 referendum. The parties which suggest revoking it or a ‘do-over’ either haven’t got out of minority status or have suffered a vote collapse.

    Aaaand on to ‘was it racism’, which requires another post.

    #68544
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thane16 Syzygy Snr

    Is it consistent though? If the wrong message was sent to the wrong people -ie “Pakis are taking all your jobs; more mosques than Christian chapels” & a vindictive social media campaign propelled a lop-sided message, would it be appropriate to have a “do-over?”

    Was immigration a factor in the vote to leave the European Union? Yes. One third of Leave voters said that control of borders and immigration was an important factor. Note that this is ‘one-third’, not ‘a majority’. Also that the word in the question was ‘control’, and that Leave voters weren’t asked if they wanted to ban immigration. They wanted control.

    What sort of immigration are we talking about? You’ve quoted an explicitly racist message about non-white Muslims (yeah, there were definitely some of those during 2016 – looking right at you, Mr Farage), but most current immigrants to the UK are white and Christian. Since the 1990’s, most immigration has been from the EU, and the UK government of the time took ‘freedom of movement’ to mean ‘no restrictions at all’.

    If you’re from the (mostly white, mostly Christian) EU, that is. People from outside the EU (mostly dark, mostly non-Christian) already come under a strictly controlled immigration system. Talking about institutional racism, we’ve actually managed to end up with an immigration system that doesn’t treat all non-UK citizens equally, and privileges those countries which are majority white.

    Since the turn of the century the UK (then pop 59 million) has grown by 6.6 million people. Half of that is due to direct migration, another thirty percent is due to the migrants settling down and having kids. This is the longest period of high, sustained migration the UK has ever seen and it’s often impacting areas where ‘immigration’ previously meant ‘somebody moving in from a nearby town’. To make bad worse, successive governments of both parties have not built sufficient social housing/hospitals/schools for the new people coming in until very recently.

    But when working class people tried to discuss this, they were shut down as ‘racist’. It’s ‘racist’ to argue that an 8% population increase over twenty years might be problematic (especially when we often weren’t building social housing or hospitals to absorb that increase), and ‘racist’ to say that you would like control to be returned to the UK government. It’s ‘racist’ to say that you don’t think a system that makes an immigrant from Pakistan jump through hoops – while an immigrant from Lithuania can just pick up a bag and come here – is a fair and equal system.

    Generally speaking, surveys show that the UK is one of the least racist countries in Europe – and many of the ‘hate crimes’ reported post the referendum turned out to be not hate crimes at all. Post the referendum, surveys show that the UK is now more comfortable with immigration.

    The powerful message that has been sent post 2016, however, is that ‘everyone’ voted Leave because of ‘racism and xenophobia’. Very powerful, because who wants to be called racist? It doesn’t make sense – the fact that the message you picked up was that people were voting about leaving the European union because of immigration from Pakistan shows that it doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t match the surveys, either. But the argument goes, ‘people don’t want to admit they’re racist’.

    Well, maybe they didn’t want to admit their racism to me, but the comment I heard most about immigration was ‘fairness’. People didn’t understand why someone from Australia, with British relatives, had to leave after two or three years, while someone from France (with no British relatives) could stay forever. They didn’t understand why one co-worker couldn’t bring her Granny over from Bangladesh, but another could bring her Granny over from Poland without any worries. And they were definitely worried about the social housing and the hospitals and it was along the lines of ‘all these people coming over, and we’ve already got a ten-year wait for housing’. ‘Control’ was what they wanted – immigration policy to be again decided at the national level, rather than having to discuss it with other European leaders.

    Okay, one more post to go….

    #68545
    syzygy @thane16

    @bluesqueakpip

    You were suggesting not all votes are equal because, by almost voting for the Lib Dems, which have anti-Brexit stance, you were attempting to unseat the unpleasant Labour candidate?

    Had you done so, even though you oppose Remain, it would appear to others as ‘mildly fickle’ or worse, ‘using’ your vote for a specific reason -to unseat a candidate (I’m not supporting that view but imagining a stance which could be taken & how you’d feel about this/others) but this is a question of local communities & not all parties would be ‘banging on’ about Brexit. Surely it’s acceptable to vote a candidate in because 8 important reasons affect you, for example,  and two others, may not. The lesser of the two evils in this instance?

    If the message of the referendum is deliberately misleading, then legally, I suppose, one could find an alternate measure of more accurate reasons for Brexit. It seemed to me that this election still focussed on Leave/Remain. If this is so, then it could suggest that people were beginning to change their mind and now that they understood some of the devastating consequences of Brexit, wanted to ‘back out and Remain.’ However the stats you outline suggest that’s not the case.

    But the 4 year break & the continued ‘bantering’ would demonstrate Brexit’s lack of a coherent plan & most importantly, the means of delivery, the chosen phrases for campaigns, disingenuous, and when Brexit was in, I’m sure it surprised the established hierarchy as they’d not predicted the result. In this case the votes, either equal or not,   were based on a number of false arguments. Thus, the referendum should ‘fail.’  If the votes are counted country-wide, then I’m assuming again that there’s no 7 step process as exist here.

    #68546
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thane16 Syzygy Snr

    did Jewish families move accounts off-shore or was this a deliberate ranting?

    I realised a bit too late that I should have put that bit in quote marks. 🙂 It’s untrue, and was a deliberate rant. It combines two racist tropes about Jewish people – one, they’re all rich. Two, they’re not ‘really’ loyal to their country.

    Anyway the final bit about the 2016 Referendum (probably to huge sighs of relief – sorry, folks, this has been a really extended rant).

    The reason Britain voted to Leave the European Union in 2016 is because Remain lost. It’s that simple. Despite being called ‘Remain’ their official campaign did not give any positive, hopeful messages of ‘What EU membership means.’ Instead, they went with a ‘change is scary’ message.

    Added to this, they were complacent. They assumed, in the face of a number of polls telling them that Leave had about 50% of the vote, that people would change their minds and stick with the status quo. That’s the ‘bubble’ effect. Most of the people they knew didn’t want to leave, and they didn’t listen to the people telling them differently. They assumed that enough people would decide the system was working for them, or would go with ‘change is scary.’ If you analyse the voting patterns, it is noticeable that majority Remain areas have a lower turnout than majority Leave areas.

    Remain lost. They lost on the campaigning, then they didn’t get enough people who wanted to stay in the EU out to vote.

    Leave, however, did a stunningly good campaign, mainly playing on people’s desire to be governed by a system that they understand. That’s why I think the 2011 AV referendum is important. People were offered the choice between a simple (if unfair to smaller parties) system that they understood, and a ‘fairer’ system which was more complicated and more likely to result in coalition governments. Most of those who voted went for the simpler system.

    And that was repeated in the 2016 Referendum. People were offered a choice between a simpler system (revert to the old Westminster Government and First Past The Post system ) and the more complex, more coalition-style EU system – and they went for the system that was simpler and allowed them to vote out governments they don’t like.

    Since 2016 many highly educated, highly sophisticated people have been utterly unable to get their heads round the idea that a system which does indeed work so very well for them was not working for about half the country. They’ve been unable to get their heads round the idea that a majority of the people who voted to remain in the then EEC back in the 1970’s have now changed their minds.

    And because they can’t – they’ve recast Leave voters as stupid, uneducated, knuckle-dragging, racist populists who are too thick to understand what’s so clearly obvious to their ‘betters’. As, at best, deluded – and at worst evil.

    It’s one hundred years since working class men and women got the vote in the UK. And I may not be a class warrior by any stretch of the imagination, but I will fucking well NOT have any party, any political persuasion, telling people that they should vote the way their ‘betters’ tell them to. That a party ‘owns’ their vote. Or that their votes should be ignored, because they’re, um, easily led. That if they are so stupid as to vote the wrong way, we should ‘do over’ until you get the vote right.

    No. One person. One vote. And if the rules state in advance that the result will be enacted on a simple majority, we enact that vote. Otherwise, our system is a sham.

    And besides – what happens the next time people want change, if they then have proof that they can’t get it through the ballot box?

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