The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords

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  • #28372
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    The Doctor, Martha and Jack manage to return to present day London and are horrified to discover that the Prime Minister, a certain Harold Saxon, is actually the Master. And he’s now married!

    #28387
    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    Sound of Drums is pretty good, but Last of the Time Lords is one of the worst episodes of all time. It is appalling. The scene where everyone in the whole world says “doctor” at the same time in order to free him is cringe worthy, and am I the only one who finds it odd that an outspoken atheist like RTD2 uses so many Christ metaphors in his stories? John Simm is the worst Master. At least Eric Roberts was entertaining, Simm is just irritating. This was also the episode that spawned the “Doctor and Master are gay” thing. How immature are you to see two male friends who deeply care for each other and think to yourself “those two are totally gay”? I see this sort of thing all over the internet. Go to the IMDB board for any film/TV series, I guarantee there will be a topic titled “is [insert name of character here] gay?” I should point out that I don’t have a problem with a character being gay, I just hate it when people see things that aren’t there.

    Sorry I went off topic there I really just wanted to get that out of my system.

    #28388
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @thekrynoidman – feeling better now? 😀

    This was also the episode that spawned the “Doctor and Master are gay” thing.

    No. Really, really no. The idea that the Doctor and the Master may have been in a relationship that went a bit beyond ‘just good friends’ long predates this episode. I can recall the possibility being mooted during the Peter Davison era. It might have been floating around since the Pertwee era’s introduction of the Master, for all I know, but I was probably a touch young to get those vibes. Both RTD and Steven Moffat are riffing off a well known fan theory that’s been around much longer than they’ve been professional writers.

    You know that ex-boyfriend who turns out to be a psycho stalker? That’s the Master.

    Incidentally, for every person who finds Simm’s mad-as-a-box-of-frogs interpretation irritating, there’s another who likes it (::waves::). He may well have not wanted to be this OTT (there’s a lot of stories that the OTT-ness is RTD’s doing rather than Simm’s), but having got the remit he didn’t so much chew the scenery as bite huge chunks off and spit them out defiantly.

    In the direction of the Doctor, of course. 😉

    #28389
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @thekrynoidman @bluesqueakpip

    I think the way the Master is presented here is probably not my preference. I think you could say that the Third Doctor (summoning Holmes) had his Moriarty, the Tenth Doctor (summoning Batman) had his Joker. An over-the-top homicidal prankster. It seems a very post-millennial thing, but its roots are firmly in those 80s comics, like Alan Moore’s The Killing Joke.

    RTDs Master, Ledger’s Joker, Moffs Moriarty, etc. Some people really like the approach, and it can work, but I think it needs to be balanced with cold menace and occasional bouts of reflection. I think those moments are in this two parter, but tend to be overshadowed. They were really absent in his return and that was when I thought the damage was really done.

    #28390
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    OK – I enjoyed much of Sound of Drums. The idea of the Master doing a timey wimey in the background of series 2 was an interesting thought. Again in a finale we have the idea of the Doctors past actions (often flippant) can come back to bite him on the ass. In 2, he and Rose inadvertantly inspired the formation of Torchwood, which separated them. Here his deposing of Harriet Jones allows a charismatic Time Lord to become elected.

    There are some nice pokes at political life in general – authoritarianism, surveillance culture and the facile salesman personae of the modern political elite. For Harold Saxon, read Tony Blair, David Cameron, amd many others. Politicians who don’t seem to actually believe in much. Would you buy a used policy from those gentlemen? Like Martha says “he sounded nice”.

    There are a lot of jokes and references to fan lore about The Master in here. @thekrynoidman, @bluesqueakpip is quite right about the fact that the love angle was very popular in certain fan circles. There are slash fictions about the Third Doctor and The Master which are probably older than you! 😀 I think that was the purpose of lines like:

    Doctor: I’ve been alone ever since. But not anymore. Don’t you see? All we’ve got is each other.
    Master: Are you asking me out on a date?

    Another popular one was that the Doctor and the Master were brothers. So you have:

    Martha: I thought you were going to say he was your secret brother or something.
    The Doctor: You’ve been watching too much TV.

    There are a few parallels with official Master lore and “might-have-beens” as well. The Doctor locking the TARDIS controls to only allow limited travel is summed up as:

    Martha: The only place he can go is Planet Earth. Great!

    Which mirrors the Third Doctor stranding The Master on Earth (and taking a great deal of joy in that fact). Delgado watching The Clangers becomes Simm watching the Teletubbies.

    I think the plot about Marthas family in jeopardy lacks some power. Frankly they were a big disparate group, we hadn’t got to know them that well, and none of them were particularly engaging (in a Rose’s mum kind of way).

    I still get a thrill from the “This is Gallifrey” sequence. A great soaring piece of music and the modern audience gets its first look at Gallifrey and the “noble” race of Time Lords (no chortling, you older fans). More comic book references by lifting the untempered schism from Alan Moore’s 4D War from Doctor Who weekly.

    Nice jokes about the Special relationship with the glory seeking President Winters pulling “rank”. And we’re all on the Valiant, with the Doctor discovering a Paradox machine built from the TARDIS.

    Goodbye President Winters and hello Toclofane. I find the child voices for the Toclofane a bit tiring actually. Not a fan. And then we have the sight of The Master and Missus freaking out to the Rogue Traders “Voodoo Child”. He’s determined to prove, like Christopher Eccleston before him, that Time Lords “dance”.

    Excellent use of the word decimate. I doff my fez.

    I shall be back later, once I’ve watched the second part.

    #28391
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Not been feeling too great this week – what a lovely way to recuperate – double dose of Who… and Tennant. I do miss him sometimes. (There again I also miss Troughton.. and Hartnell… and Matt (already!) 😉 )

    I think these final 2 episodes have a bit of trouble living up to the promise of Utopia which I thought was really strong throughout. As others have said, it would have been interesting to see these episodes written for Jacobi, but I can see why they would think the younger Master was a better balance. That said, I agree with @bluesqueakpip that Simms has a great stab at it given how it’s scripted and he has some great scenes with Tennant who’s pretty amazing throughout.

    I like a lot of the ideas and imagery in both the episodes a lot, enough to get over the “elephant in the room” Christ like resurrection and shiny, floaty, forgivey Doctor business.

    What I did like was Martha growing up. You can see she’s tougher as she gets off the boat after a year of travelling the world. And I was glad she got a proper farewell, although it did go on a little bit! But she leaves for her family and to do her job as a doctor, with a possibility of a love interest. She’s ready to grow up and move on.

    Not a complete fan of the Toclofane, they’re fairly undefined until the shock reveal that they are the remains of the humans in Utopia – I wondered what happened to them. Maybe you can want to survive just a little too much. Beyond the point where you are still human. I also liked Martha’s mum (tho the family are mostly just plot-conveniences), especially the scene when the Doctor talks her out of killing the Master. Only for him to be gunned down by Lucy who was looking progressively more bullied throughout End of the World compared with her confidence in the Sound of Drums.

    The scene of the Master’s funeral pyre – the Doctor burns the last Time Lord (other than himself) as he watched the others burn on Gallifrey. (And as in all the best vampire movies, the apparently insignificant ring drops and is scooped up by unseen hands)

    Last word to @phaseshift
    Delgado watching The Clangers becomes Simm watching the Teletubbies.
    Excellent spot sir!

    #28392
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    So Last of the Time Lords I don’t enjoy as much as the first part.

    I mentioned might-have-beens and if people followed the Day of the Daleks retrospective I mentioned that plot about a “false future” based on a Paradox was originally pitched as a story in which the Master had conquered the Earth. I think this was RTD going back in time and using elements of that scenario for The Master finally.

    Largely, that plays out as expected. As soon as you see the dark future Martha has walked through you know the resolution is going to involve undoing that damage in some way. Some people don’t like that, but its not unique in Who history.

    Little egomaniac that he is, he’s carved his image everywhere while he floats above torturing his aged Doctor by making him listen to the Scissor Sisters (only joking – I quite like the quirky “I can’t decide”). He’s “dancing” with the Doctor. Won’t someone think of the Children. And the Aged Doctors Hip?!

    The revelation about the nature of the Toclafane is well done. Its one of those ones where it makes absolute sense from how the story is set out. With a limited set of destinations, they must be from the end of the universe. Having the future humans cannibalise themselves is nicely gruesome.

    It all starts going a bit pear shaped with the arrival of Doctor Dobby. Sorry Doctor Dobby fans, but it gets my goat. Marthas apparent betrayal by a double agent in the now expected “plucky resistance” is a nice touch, as is the double-double cross as its revealed Martha wanted that all along. The secret weapon turns out not to be a fanciful gun, but the power of the story.

    And lo – the meek of the Earth raise their eyes to heaven and pray to the good lord Doctor, who rises in a Christ like pose to swat the Master like the filthy bounder he is. At this point the red mist descends in front of me, I’ll cheerfully admit. I’ll join @scaryb and anyone else who condemns it.

    And so the Paradox machine is broken, and then timelines revert.. don’t worry children it never happened, and possibly won’t if you avoid voting for politicians who are vague about policy with an easy charm. A lesson for us all there.

    I can remember when I first watched this I actually thought Marthas mum was going to kill The Master, and then its poor Lucy. Have to say in the guest cast stakes Alexandra Moen was quietly impressive as Lucy, driven mad through seeing a little too much.

    A funeral pyre and a farewell for Martha. I think this sequence is well written and performed and gives Martha some dignity after some of the indignities thrown at her throughout the series. She’s grown up – she makes a decision that’s good for her.

    It’s funny, but I think watching just the RTD episodes in this retrospective helps to put Martha into context. I think RTD knew exactly what he wanted to do with the character, and wrote her well.

    I think some of the briefing to other writers may have been not that good. The repetition of longing and rejection undermined what is a very good character. What’s peculiar about Martha is that she’s just so unselfish. The Master calls her the “Blessed Saint Martha” and there is something very unselfish about her (whereas Rose could be very selfish). Martha wants to do good (as a Doctor), is centred, reliable, dependable. When she comes against something she wants for herself, she’s rejected, and that sense of rejection seems to define her in some minds. It’s a shame really that her better qualities tend to be overshadowed and selfless actions can become perceived weaknesses. Very Odd.

    I think the longing/rejection in some earlier stories outght to have been removed. Although only on screen briefly in Blink, the dialogue is jocular an playful. That ought to have been more the norm, leaving the standout moments in the RTD stories and the Family of Blood two-parter, which would not have laboured the point.

    #28393
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @scaryb

    Sorry to hear you’r feeling under the weather. Get well soon, and if you need cheering up theres also City of Death and Hitch Hikers! 😀

    #28405
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @scaryb – sorry to hear that you haven’t been feeling too well.

    I’d also say that Last of the Time Lords didn’t live up to The Sound of Drums – which only got beaten in the ‘downer ending’ stakes by The Pandorica Opens.

    Yes, I will join you and @phaseshift in condemning the shiny floaty forgivey Doctor. At the time, I did wonder if young Lucy had been somehow told to kill the Master – death was so obviously preferable to having to listen to another of the Doctor’s ‘forgiveness’ speeches. A Time Lord lifespan having to listen to that sanctimonious twaddle? Shoot me now. 😈

    #28408
    The Krynoid Man @thekrynoidman

    @bluesqueakpip Hey, I complained about it first.

    #28414
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Apologies to @thekrynoidman You did indeed 😉

    And thanks to @bluesqueakpip and @phaseshift for your get well wishes. Back to my annoyingly bouncey yeti self 😉 (these retrospectives have been just what the Doctor ordered!)

    I agree with Phaseshift re Martha’s arc. I’ve enjoyed her story much more on this viewing, having initially found her a bit annoying, and as you say, it becomes much clearer when we’re only looking at the RTD episodes. She really has found her own 2 feet by the end of Last of the Time Lords; she may or may not go for the hunky paediatrician (who, after all, was prepared to stop a bullet for her), but she’s not going to build her life around him. Or the Doctor. Incidentally I thought the Doctor’s reaction in her final scene was interesting. As a viewer you want him to say something, yet he seems to be very intent on not giving her anything to build her hopes on, or influence her decision; while contemplating his own solitary travels and the knowledge that 1 more Time Lord light has gone out and he couldn’t prevent it.

    #28435
    Anonymous @

    I’m only really dipping in and out of the RTD retrospective, I’m afraid. I’ve found that his stories have a minimal rewatch value for me. I remember enjoying them at the time but that a lot of the time that they’re a case of style over substance and have the vibe of being described a potentially better story by a breathless 8-year-old who’s working from memory. And the music is a bit too rumpty-tumpty ominipresent too. And I’m strangely finding Doc 10 a lot less likable than I did at the time too. A lot of the time he just seems to have two settings — ‘Amaaaaaazshiiing!!” and ‘I’m so sooorry’. For me, I’m not sure he’s standing up to the nuance that Matt’s brought to the role.

    But Utopia is one of the exceptions that disprove the rule. I still think it’s a pretty good story and has a killer climax. But all that good work is undone here. And I think it’s Dobby the Doctor and the godawful Lonely God resolution that gets me. It’s RTD at his most indulgent.

    But I have to defend Simm’s Master. I really quite like what he did but didn’t really get into his stride until the following year. I’d even like to see him again, at least once more for a regeneration to a new one. (I’ve long harboured a fanboy wish for there to be a multi-Master story in the vein of the Three Doctors.) I think you have to go for that unhinged aspect these days because much as I love Delgado’s Master, he was very much of his time and I don’t think that Nehru-collar, moustache-twirling villainy approach really has a hope in hell of working anymore.

    #71213
    johnnybear @johnnybear

    I’ve always seen these two episodes as RTDs take on Logopolis/Castrovalva to be honest! A new Master, a Doctor that changes at the end of the story and becomes something supposedly greater in the next episode and the Master tries to humiliate and ridicule the Doctor before destroying him utterly!

    JB

    #73509
    Rewvian @rewvian

    I had mixed feelings about this series 3 finale on my rewatch.  On the one hand both episodes taken together (and maybe including Utopia), felt a bit like a Doctor Who movie.  At the same time I felt like this could have been a better story pitting the Doctor against the Master.  But I generally enjoyed it, and there were some really great and memorable scenes.

    I was confused by the Master’s wife’s actions.  One minute she is supporting him through thick and thin despite his murderous intentions, the next she is gunning him down.  Also confusing was the whole plot with Toclafane orb things, which turned out to be the heads of the people sent to Utopia, which the Master had brought back and made an army of killers with.  Maybe that plot was just more nonsensical than anything.

    The Paradox Machine the Master had created out of the TARDIS was a nice touch, and shows that the Master used the Doctor’s ship for evil deeds even though he could only travel back and forth to the Utopia civilization.  I liked that the Master also had a sonic laser.  The Master greatly aging the Doctor to elder status, and again to become a small, frail little being was something that stuck with me when I saw it ages ago.

    I liked that Martha was able to escape for a year and do her part to spread the story of the Doctor.  Even though the whole concept of everyone thinking of the Doctor to save him via the Archangel thing was kind of an easy way of resolving things, it was satisfying seeing the Doctor overcome the Master’s work and hover like a supernatural being.  The misdirection with the time lord-stopping gun was a bit weird, as was the betrayal of the scientist woman.

    The Master refusing to regenerate to be stubborn and to prevent conceding to the Doctor was a great moment.  Also brilliant was Captain Jack’s concerns over what will happen when he continues aging, and his revelation that he was once known as “The Face of Boe.”  At the end of the episode Martha was able to make a clean break and stop travelling with the Doctor on her own terms, rather than to continue feeling like a placeholder for Rose.  I also like that she sees the world needs help and being a doctor she decides to stay and help out however she can.

    I think the opportunity to make this some real battle of the minds between the Doctor and Master was squandered a bit, but it’s fine considering that this isn’t really the last we see of the Master.  Come to think of it, it would have been disappointing if they brought the Master back for 3 episodes and then dispatched him in the AG series.

    I think series 3 as a whole was better than series 2, holding true to my opinion that each Doctor improves in the role over time.  Especially the back half of the season saw a lot of memorable episodes.  Of course I’ve still got the Voyage of the Damned to go, which could either be considered the season finale or opener for next season depending on how you choose to look at it.

    My final thought would be I’m pretty far into the Tenth Doctor’s run now, but quite possibly my favorite season of his is yet to come.  And I’ve got quite a few specials to watch!  It amazes me how much I’ve already rewatched at this point, and it will take some mental adjusting to get used to the Eleventh Doctor again, since that’s basically a reboot of everything the AG series did up to that point.  But as I continue my rewatch, I get gradually closer to the point where I left off at series 9.

    #75102
    VickyMallard @vickymallard

    Time travel without a capsule?! Jeez. But at least they made it back from the end of the universe, and I’m confident the Doctor will eventually get his Tardis back too. Ah, and now I finally know who Harold Saxon is! The guy who monitors the telephone of Martha’s mum! (And Prime Minister. And the Master of the Time Lords, apparently. Unhealthy combination, I would say). It is a bit weird to watch this so many years after it was made – that line “What this country really needs, is a doctor” couldn’t be more up to date. Although it’s more like “the world” rather than just one country. And whether a virtually immortal Timelord-Doctor would be suitable I don’t know. Anyway, on with the episode.

    The Master is controlling everyone and everything and killing along the way. And cannibalised the Tardis, poor thing! You’ll be all right again, I promise! Interesting thing with the Tardis keys making the three…. Not invisible, but unnoticeable. Reminded me a bit of Neil Gaiman’s “Neverwhere”. And Martha is a good girl and quietly watches her family being transported off. And the Master brings the Doctor forward a hundred years – that’s a first, at least for me. Nice look! Does a timelord in a very old body still have his normal powers? I was wondering a bit, as he initially wondered how he could get close enough to the Master to put the key thingy around his neck. And when the Master was right in front of him, he didn’t. But maybe that contraption doesn’t work anymore, or that plan at all, or he simply didn’t have enough strength left. It was very weird seeing him there next to the Master, forced to watch all the destruction. With I don’t know how many layers of makeup on, it felt rather lifeless. (Which was probably not unintentional, as 100-something year-olds are usually not exactly bursting with energy either). And as I was wondering when the conclusion would come, it turns out it’s a several-episode arc! So I’ll have to wait and see – Martha teleporting somewhere else, but promising to come back, and Jack just staring. I assume Martha is not the only one who has a crush on the good Doctor?

    On to the next part then. I admit I got a bit lost in the events with all this time paradox thing – I found that VERY paradoxical at times. But the episode of course still had plenty of interesting bits. The Doctor aged 900 years. Captain Jack shackled up and later entering the Tardis Rambo style. And of course the scenes where the Master is dying and refuses to regenerate. That was a great scene. Despite everything the Master has done to humanity and also to the Doctor himself – and would do again in a heartbeat – the Doctor cannot let him go. He is so desperate not to be the last one of his species left… But if I understand the end correctly (which had a sort of déjà vu effect on me with these red fingernails) refusing to regenerate and being burnt on a pyre still doesn’t kill a timelord properly? And does the Doctor know that, and if yes, why doesn’t he stay around to make sure the Master is fully gone? Okay, he doesn’t really want him to be gone, and I guess whatever it was that was left of him and picked up by this mysterious hand is not really the Master any more.

    I also loved the ending of the episode. Jack – whom I like very much so far and hope to see him again – is sensible enough not to stay with the Doctor but go back to Unit. And he… is to become the Face of Bo?! Seriously? I can’t remember how he ended up immortal, but I hope the ego of this charming fellow evolves sufficiently with him to cope with being a head in a glass jar than a dashing young man willing to mate anything. Interesting thought! But what I loved most is that Martha finally came to her senses and did the right thing – get out before she gets hurt. The Doctor will never be able to give her what she wants and needs, and doesn’t even seem to be willing to pretend he wants to. (I’m still sort of mad at him for the way he returned to Martha after that school matron Joan turned him down.) But I am looking forward to finally getting to the Donna Noble episodes! (No, it’s not that I didn’t like Martha. She was brilliant. And at least of the Ten’s companions she clearly was the one that the Doctor was least interested in. Of course he cared for her, in the way he cares about anyone he feels responsible for. But it seemed clear to me that the only reason he was taking her along was so he wouldn’t have to pass all that time on his own.)

    #75107
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @vickymallard   Welcome to the forum.   Do I gather you are working your way through past seasons?   I did that a couple of years back – catching up on everybody from way behind.   I almost envy you because you’ve got several years worth of episodes still to work through.

    I’ve got a standard suggestion I make to anyone catching up on episodes – you can find full transcripts of every episode on chakoteya.net, and a complete listing of all episodes on  tardis.fandom.com  under  TV > Doctor Who > Main Episode List, with links to every episode and plot synopses and cast lists.   Please excuse if you already know this.   I find the transcript very useful sometimes, when I miss a bit of dialogue.

    Yes I had a high opinion of Martha.   Probably the smartest of any of the Doctor’s companions until, possibly, Clara.   And she was smart enough to realise that, though she had fallen for the Doctor, he didn’t feel the same way about her – understandably, because he’d just tragically lost Rose.  The only time he ‘fell’ for someone was in Human Nature / Family of Blood, when he’d  completely lost his memory, and then – as Martha sadly noted – “You had to go and fall in love with a human, and it wasn’t me.”    So yes, walking away was the best thing she could have done.

     

    #75186
    VickyMallard @vickymallard

    @dentarthurdent Thank you – yes, I am currently making my way through the adventures of 10 and 14, but have meanwhile become fascinated enough that I will take a peek at other Doctors too. (As already mentioned in another post: I fully admit that I’m mostly here because of David Tennant, but I am by no means a member of the “DT-must-stay-forever” club. I am very happy he passed the baton on to Ncuti and may his character recover in peace offscreen). Also thank you for the suggestion with the transcript – so far I haven’t needed them but it’s always good to know where to find such things. (PS: Nice username! 😉 )

    #75207
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @vickymallard Thanks, obviously I stole my user name from Doug Adams. I was looking for something vaguely Who-related but not an actual Who character, so Doug Adams (who was a script editor in oldWho days) seemed to fit the bill.
    I take it you’ve seen DT in Neil Gaiman’s ‘Good Omens’ – I thought the first series (which was close to the book) was very good, I haven’t seen the second series yet.
    I haven’t seen any of David Tennant as 14 yet, I must check the availability of DVD’s.

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