The Timeless Children

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  • #70785
    MissRori @missrori

    @dalekbuster523 Well, it’s possible “Revolution of the Daleks” won’t be an Earth-set episode in the first place, or at least not set on present-day Earth, so the pandemic would be a moot point and no alterations will be needed.

    #70786
    the new new doctor @thenewnewdoctor

    @missrori hopefully, it’s been crap so far hasnt it

    #70789
    Peacemaker @peacemaker

    Seems a lot of hubbub about something that could be and perhaps is going to be handled so effortlessly.  How about, she was the explorer who brought regeneration to Gallifrey?  She eventually openly expresses regret at it due to Timelord chicanery around the universe so Timelords erase her memory but keep her around in case they need her. She discovers some clue to her missing pieces, somehow escapes and perhaps is not sure why but knows only a need to right wrongs throughout the galaxy.  An obvious and elegant backstory for “The doctor”.

    #70796
    doctorwhofan @crazydoctorwhofan

    What doesn’t make sence to me is how the doctor is going to get out of prizon in the next series. Also this series has been so different to the ones in the past. There has been a very constant theme throughtout all the episodes instead of fighting different creatures everytime. The first series of Matt Smith asthe doctor also had a theme but the episodes were very different and they only came togerther on the very last episode. Personly I love Jodie Whittiker as a doctor but I prefered the first series over the mot recent one.

    #70836
    Master @master124

    I have no idea why people are so angry at this story, It explains the Valeyard and the Morbius doctors. Although it’s certainly not without flaws, people need not over-complain about perfectly good episodes because it changes cannon in a huge way.

    #70840
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    There were hints that the Doctor was more that your usual TimeLord back into the BG era, especially in McCoy era, there were hints that the Doctor was a lot more right through his tenure especially the enemies he faced now admittedly I think his storylines were part of the Cartmel Plan which is something I have little actual knowledge but I think it actually mirrored the Timeless Child in a lot of respects. Those more familiar with the Cartmel plan can jump in and correct me  but I think that again made out that the Doctor was actually an ancient immortal timelord on a par with Rassilon, so to say Chibers has drastically changed canon is true it’s not outside of the evolving nature of Whoverse in fact is that part of what Doctor Who has been about. The fact that the Doctor is The Timeless Child actually explains how the Timelords were able to grant a new regeneration cycle in Day of the Doctor…. they didn’t they just didn’t get a chance to wipe the Doctors memory of the previous 12 life  cycle as in the past and the Doctor just assumed that they had somehow granted him with the new cycle when he regenerated into Capaldidoc. Change is natural law and in TV land change is even more so a natural law programs that don’t evolve don’t survive in the long term.

    #70841
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @master124 and @devilishrobby
    Yes, it actually explains a lot. Why the Time Lords have always seemed so … genetically engineered as survival machines (they are), why the Doctor is almost universally loathed on Gallifrey (no aliens on Gallifrey, but the Doctor is The Alien Who Must Not Be Mentioned).

    Why the Doctor is so different (he/she is different). Why Time Lords live for thousands of years but Gallifrey has 2.47 billion children (Shogobhans are the original Gallifreyans and don’t regenerate).

    In terms of what kind of stories can be derived from it, we’ve got the question of whether the Master has really made Day of The Doctor kind of pointless, or whether the Doctor can save Gallifrey’s children again. We’ve got the mystery back – the Doctor joins the large number of mythological foundlings and nobody has a clue who or what she/he is. So various ‘quest’ possibilities.

    Then there’s the ‘Master as unreliable narrator’ possibility. I keep looking at that ‘child who kills the Timeless Child’ and wondering. Just how long has the Master been killing the Doctor? Since before they were even ‘The Doctor’ and ‘The Master’?

    Plus, more guest actors as ‘The Doctor’ because we’re no longer constrained to the current TV Doctor – or even to one-and-only-one series on air at a time. RTD did it by bringing back Liz Sladen to headline as Promoted Assistant, but the ability to have different Doctors the way Star Trek has different ships is a plus for me. A franchisable Doctor Who is far more likely to continue in today’s box-set on-demand multiple channel TV environment.

    #70843
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @bluesqueakpip oh good I though thought I was going to majorly upset ppl with my defence of Chibnall in this case though I do have to say I haven’t always been as enamoured with his Who style but in the case of the Timeless Child I think he managed to stitch together something that has bought together some  story strands that have been hanging there for decades in some cases, when you look back at it he is obviously a fan of elements of the  Cartmel Plan. As you say bluesqueakpip it’s opened a new world of possibilities regarding future stories and possibilities to franchise the series. In fact looking at it Big Finish must have been rubbing their hands in glee at the possibilities it presents them. Obviously given current world events we are probably going to have a bit of a wait for any new who but what series hasn’t been affected one wonders how current events are going to reflected in the new series.

    #71068
    Vervain @vervain

    Ok – new bonkers theory

    So does anyone remember the conversation between War Doctor, 10, 11 and the General just before the creation of Gallifrey Falls No More?

    Locked away in a mirror/other universe

    The Master’s allies in Spyfall and apparently where he ended up – another universe

    The crack broadcasting a message through all of time and space – from another universe

    The Boundary…

    The Timeless Child fell through from one universe to another…

    We know that the Doctor has had gaps in their memory before, even within the Matrix – Trial of a Timelord

    The Division – an agency that traverse time space and universes?

     

     

    #71142
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    OK, in light of my thoughts about recent rumours regarding the Tardis, I decided to watch this again. And I confess, I still retain my original response: when, in the entire history of this show, is there ever any indication that we should trust anything that the Master says as true?

    If what happens in the episode really is true, then, as far as I am concerned, this is Chibnall ignoring everything that has gone before and simply making it up. By the way, how, exactly, did the Master manage to destroy Gallifrey and yet conveniently retain the collective memory of the Timelords (mostly)?

    Anyway, to jump to the conclusion, when the Judoon suddenly materialize on the Tardis and capture the Doctor; when, in the history of the show, does anyone mange to suddenly materialize inside the Tardis?

    But it is late, and I may have forgotten episodes…

    #71149
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    He actually hasn’t ignored everything that’s gone before, any more than, say, RTD ignored everything we knew about the Master when he decided to make him a) driven insane by the Time Vortex and then b) driven insane by a homing signal sent through the Time Vortex by Rassillon. In a very similar way, Chibnall has given us information we didn’t previously know about the character’s life before his/her first appearance on our screens. The interesting twist is that the character didn’t know it either. As you say, the Master may be acting as Mr Unreliable Narrator, but the appearance of the Fugitive Doctor suggests there IS a gap in the Doctor’s memory.

    This episode was the Act II climax, I’d suggest, which means things may seem very different by Act III. But rather than ignoring backstory, the idea explains a lot that’s puzzling about The Doctor. Why she’s so mistrusted, why she takes no responsibility for Gallifrey even when he’s the elected President, why the Time Lords seem ‘engineered’, even why there was such a mismatch between the number of children on Gallifrey and Time Lord life spans.

    Is she a River Song? A mutation from over-exposure to the Time Vortex during conception? Was she abandoned because her own people could not cope with regeneration?

    Incidentally, you can materialise inside the TARDIS – it implies the Judoon or the Shadow Proclamation now have TARDISlike technology, but it’s been done both pre and post gap. It’s best done when the shields are down.

    #71150
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip

    Your explanation certainly makes sense. I suppose, for me (and I confess that my Master never really included the RTD years) I have always seen the Master as (highly) unreliable narrator.

    Still trying to get my head around how he (of all people) managed to destroy Gallifrey in such a targeted way that he could save just enough (but not too much) archival memory of the Timeless Child, however.

    Still, Chibnall has done it, and I suppose I will have to run with it.

     

    #71152
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I classed the archive as handwavium – the Master showed he can hack the Matrix more than once, so I’d expect him to be able to copy the interesting bits. But we’ll see.

    I think the definite ‘unreliable narrator’ bit for me is where Brendan in the cover story is deliberately shot by a criminal, but the Master is oddly insistent that the Timeless Child’s first death was in fact two children playing, a childish shove that accidentally sent her over the cliff.

    One of those is a lie. But which one? And why would the Master care about the reputation of some ancient child?

    The other interesting thing is hiding in plain sight. The title.

    If this is a story about ‘The Timeless Child’, why is it called ‘The Timeless Children‘?

    Yeah, he’s an unreliable narrator. This affects him in more ways than some spliced-in genes. 🙂

    #71446
    screenwritersafari @screenwritersafari

    The Timeless Children Is Utterly Suicidal (Review)

     

    #71549
    johnnybear @johnnybear

    As someone who gave up watching the show three years ago I think this timeless child thing is a load of bunk ‘written’ by a second rate hack that makes even Moffat seem better than he was! This has been done purely for the woke minded and to cause trouble with Who fans, which it has done! I only found out about it because my son watches it and even he wasn’t impressed! Capaldi’s era and the genderbending Time Lords turned me right off of my once favourite show! I stopped collecting the DVDs after Smith left and I wasn’t happy with his era, liked him just not his stories. Capaldi’s time was purile and a chore to get through and I was looking forward to a new team and actor. Kris Marshall who was hinted at gave me a Davison vibe and I could see him in his cricket gear again but when the news broke of Jerdeh replacing Capaldi I knew it was time to go! Tom Baker’s one time joke became the basis of the show to follow and I decided to switch off and do something more entertaining!

    JB

    #71597
    nerys @nerys

    Well, different strokes and all. I have enjoyed all the post-gap Doctors and appreciated them in different ways. I slowly grew to love Capaldi’s Doctor, mainly because of the way his Doctor evolved before our eyes, right up to his regeneration.

    “The Timeless Children” was a good idea, in concept. But having the Master explain everything to the Doctor, in such excruciating detail, really took the dramatic wind out of the episode.

    I agree with the video commentator who says Whittaker is held back by Chris Chibnall’s nearly humorless scripts. There is too much tell, not nearly enough show. In my opinion, the balance between “show and tell” was far better in the Russell T. Davies and Steven Moffat eras. Writing throughout those eras created a believable tension between the Doctor, companions and antagonists. It seems far more cartoonish and explainy now, with little in the way of comic relief. Contrary to what the video commentator says, Doctor Who doesn’t need better actors. The actors are fine. But the writing can use a boost.

    (Kudos to the video commentator for mentioning “Midnight”, one of my favorite episodes!)

    #71600
    Macca @macca

    I don’t know if anyone will actually read this or not but I’m new here as of today so alright to anyone who reads this:), I won’t lie in my opinion ever since Series 7 part 1 finished, personally, Doctor Who went down the drain aside from a few episodes that were well written and actually had a good story such as the name of the doctor, the 50th anniversary special and the time of the doctor and a few more but I don’t want to waffle on. I’m currently 17 years old and I’ve been watching Doctor Who most of my life my first episode was Daleks In Manhattan and I was probably only 4 or 5 years old at the time but I instantly fell in love with the show and continued to watch David through to Matt and went back to watch Chris and I enjoyed these three Doctors in particular thoroughly as it was so enjoyable to watch and the storylines and character development was amazing, it was my childhood I was obsessed with it. The reasoning behind me coming onto this forum is to just voice my opinion regarding the show and being honest for the past few years I’ve sat there and watched my comfort show my childhood show just deteriorate over time especially with series 12’s finale I mean I sat there and watched that and I turned the Tv off and wanted to punch something it angered me so much it was so stupid, I feel sorry for the actors as at the end of the day it’s not their fault but even with saying that the acting is no were near as good as it used to be and I think people will have my back on that one, I think Chibnall needs to get his arse into gear like he tried to do in the new years special and you know what I sat and enjoyed that episode as obviously Captain Jack returned, we got a mention of Rose, our favourite Daleks were back and we got to see some bad guys we hadn’t seen for a long time like the ood, silence and sykorax I don’t know how to spell it lol, so for series 13 I really hope Chibnall continues this as the season 12 finale was a joke I think any fan who actually knows the show would write a better story. Moreover, I’d very much like to hear what other people my age or older think about new who as its just in the gutter at the minute we need another RTD or Moff Chibs isn’t the one.

    cheers for reading, wanted to voice my opinion, also I have thought up a theroy that legitimatley brings the 10th Doctor back into Who to reprise his role but before revealing that I’d just like to see if anyone reads this lol.

    Macca

    #71783
    OsdfFdsfg @osdffdsfg

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    #71794
    syzygy @thane16

    @macca

    normally, I welcome newbies but I haven’t been around in awhile, so welcome.

    You mentioned whether people would read your stuff?

    If you try paragraphs, it’d help. As a good friend once told me, they’re your friends. 😁

    I’m in my 50s and disagree with some of your analysis and I checked in with my son and his friends who are 1-2 years older and they loved the show post -Tennant.

    Moffat’s tenure from the opening scenes with Smith til the last episode with Capaldi is roundly considered the best in this household but it could be a minority opinion in the big Bad Wolf World.

    This site was formed because of the complexity within Moffat’s stories, and an undeniable energy or forward progression within plots and character arcs.

    Personally, any story captivates when the relationships between people are investigated by the writers and intuited deftly by new actors. The love between Amy and Rory was genuine and no amount of timey-whimey whimsy would’ve encapsulated the whole if the love story remained unconvincing. Even standalones like the Van Gogh tale broke our hearts all over again.

    Whilst I thought Tennant introduced much needed energy into the role, he wasn’t my favourite. The stories were good, at times. Some in the Donna era – the Vasta Nerada; the spectacular Tennant/Rose/capt Jack: “are you my Mummy?” and in Martha’s era, our first look at the Weeping Angels.

    My biggest concern was the love ‘triangle’ in space: Rose loves the Doctor, he loves her, then Martha loves the Doctor, he can’t reciprocate.

    My favourite character, though, was Missy as the new Master. How did you find her, compared with, say, RTD’s Master?

    Anyway, check out some of the posts on Smith/Capaldi on the different Forum areas and enjoy. There’s also great posts on the Tennant episodes. Hope you find what you’re looking for.

    Kindest, Puro.

    #73373
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Well, I’m finally up to the finale, The Timeless Children. The previous episode was build-up, lots and lots of build-up. Maybe too much, we have the riddle of the Irish guy, the Cyberpursuit of the last few humans, plus the reveal of the ruins of Gallifrey, and the Master – all of which seem quite unrelated to each other. Oh, and the music gets really intrusive at times.

    I’m a bit – disappointed in the Master. As Missy, he really did seem to be trying to learn some wisdom. Destroying Gallifrey was definitely OTT. I can see how anyone who is more picky about canon than me might get upset about that. Sasha Dhawan’s Master is good and believable, I have to admit, but I don’t really see any of Missy in him (but then I don’t see any of Capaldi Doc in the current one either).

    Graham’s idea of using the cybersuits (and discarding the original occupants) is exactly like an incident in Battlestar Galactica when one of the humans removed the insides of a Cylon attack craft and flew it home. Incidentally, I do like Ravio, wonder if she and Graham will get a thing going.

    I’m not sure Chibbers has earned the right to make such fundamental changes in Gallifreyan history as he’s doing here. And – isn’t it the Daleks who have earned the right to destroy Gallifrey? Is this some sort of Cyber-retcon? And what’s the idea of destroying all organic life? Isn’t that more a Dalek thing? I thought the Cybermen just wished to upgrade all humanoids.

    Ryan still comes across as a bit of a prat, even though his dyspraxia has miraculously been replaced by an ability to break the Olympic throwing record.

    And the (non-Gallifreyan) child being the Doctor – just jumped the shark, IMO. (I thought it was going to be the Master, btw). That makes no sense, if the Doctor was the Child, capable of unlimited regeneration, then why was the Doctor limited to twelve and why were the Timelords able to ‘grant’ the Doctor further regenerations?

    And I’m starting to have trouble believing the Master as the episode goes on, what’s driving him?

    And the idea that the Doctor was some sort of secret sleeper agent for a Timelord CIA called the Division – Chibbers is really running wild here isn’t he? And CyberTimelords…

    Um, where are all the Cybermen while the humans are planting bombs all over their ship? And how did they so easily get off the ship at a few seconds’ notice before it blew up?

    How convenient, to find a working Tardis just sitting there. Though I suppose, this is Gallifrey, so I’ll concede that one.

    And the Doctor wimps out of pushing the big red button – and Ko Sharmus conveniently appears to do it for her. Question – why hadn’t the Tardis crew already gone, what were they trying to do, wait and get annihilated? And what was the Master’s CyberTimelords doing all this time, did none of them think to take a look around?

    Okay, so the crew had indeed gone, and the Doctor took a different Tardis (had to read the synopsis to click to this, it wasn’t entirely apparent from the screenplay) – which disguised itself as a tree – to get back to Sexy. And the crew’s Tardis chameleon circuit made a small house – which is good canon.

    Um. Way better than the previous season ender. It needed the double episode to give room for the story to happen. Still, there was almost too much in it. The Irish setup last ep was all just for a brief payoff with The Division which signified – what? That was just a throwaway element, nothing resulted from it. And how did the Master destroy Gallifrey? And is the Master really vaporised? I sense a certain lack of attention to detail all through this ep. Lots of radical concepts, but not a lot made of them.

    I would have liked to see Graham go off with Ravio at the end, but that’s just me.

    Now to read everybody else’s take on this ep…

    #73376
    janetteB @janetteb

    @dentarthurdent. Another excellent review and it reminds me of all the  things I disliked about this episode and why I have not watched the subsequent episodes which makes me sad. I want to keep watching but just cannot and it is because this episode for me was destructive of the series itself.  MOffat and RTD made changes to the lore but they did with with a scalpel not a bulldozer.  Somehow this series left me feeling that Chibnell hates the series and wants to make it into something else. There were good ideas but they were delivered badly and the feel was off too. One of the features that has always made Dr Who so lovable is charm right from 1963, (with the exception of the Colin Baker years) but this series totally lacks charm. (that was also one of the reasons that the Canadian film failed

    I am afraid that this episode lost me as a viewer. Hopefully RTD will ignore a lot of Chibbers’ canon bashing and restore Gallifrey yet again.. After all it is strongly implied in the last Moffat series that Gallifrey lasts until the end of time itself.

    Cheers

    Janette

     

    #73377
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @janetteb Well, the upheavals in the finale were worrisome, though maybe didn’t affect me quite as badly as you. Maybe that was because I’m less serious about ‘canon’ – though I’d still rather it wasn’t broken gratuitously. Or maybe it was because I was aware of the controversy it had caused so I was pre-warned. Or maybe it was just because I had lower expectations. If The Woman Who Fell to Earth and blue teeth man couldn’t put me off, this one didn’t (even if the lone cyberman reminded me of him).

    Things that do cause me problems are physical or logical impossibilities (and no I don’t mean time travel or teleports, this is science fiction after all), but little things like, how did three humans defeat scores of Cybermen in direct battle? (And if four of those were humans in disguise, how did they avoid getting shot/blown up by mistake?). How did the humans manage to plant bombs all over the cybership (without being caught) and then escape from it at a moments’ notice? And, the efficacy of weapons seemed to vary according to the dictates of the plot.

    Ignoring the canon issue, this series was much better (or less cringingly awful) than the previous series, so – out of curiosity as much as anything – I’ve ordered the S13 DVD’s. I’ll report back 🙂

    It will be interesting to see what RTD makes of the series, if I last that long (I’m pretty ancient and people my age keep dying on me, which is disconcerting). Judith Durham just died. She was the first singer I was ever a fan of, and IMO she had one of the two most beautiful voices in all of music (the other was Linda Ronstadt). One thing that makes me very pleased to be living right now is the Internet and digital electronics, which makes it practical and easy to listen to music that suits my tastes whenever I want, even walking – something impossible when I was young. And in centuries past, a voice like Judith Durham’s would never have been heard by more than a few hundred fortunate people.

    cr

    #73379
    winston @winston

    @dentarthurdent  and @janetteb  I have not watched this one since it first aired although I own the dvds, it is not a favourite. I remember some of it being exciting and the crazy Master and the destruction of Gallifrey and cybermen. Mostly I remember being confused. The Doctor is what now?The Timelords are who?

    I decided that was all a bad dream brought on by too many jammie dodgers and jelly babies before bed. I will probably never stop watching Who as long as they keep making it but 13s time as the Doctor will never be my favourite.

    Oh well, bring on the 14th doctor! I hate waiting.

    Stay safe.

    #73380
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @winston   Well, the episode was quite good, or about 3/4 of it was.   If they’d left the Timeless Child and the CyberTimelords out of it, there would still have been plenty of content and it might have been a bit more coherent.  There was just too much stuff.  Even though it was a double episode, the events at the end seemed to be a bit compressed – cut short.   As if there was five or ten minutes of footage on the cutting room floor.

    And they never said how the Master destroyed Gallifrey (when the Daleks had failed to).   Oh, and where had the other humans who went through the portal, ended up?   Presumably not Gallifrey.   Though I seem to recall it was stated that the destination was random, so that’s not a plot inconsistency.    Though, the Master knew the Doctor and friends were coming – how did he do that?   And considering he knew so much, howcome he or his cyberguards didn’t spot the companions planting bombs all over the ship?

    So it didn’t cause me the extreme anguish that Kill the Moon did, I think my reaction overall is pretty much like yours.

    Cheers

    cr

     

    #73412
    Jennydieffenbach @jennydieffenbach

    You know I don’t mind the timeless child story line. They had to do something to keep a future for the doctor and the show. How else would they keep explaining his regenerations.I know it might mess up canon from the classic who but I’m not familiar with classic who only nuwho.

     

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