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11 January 2013 at 02:20 #1201
Just re-watched “The Thief of Bagdad” (the 1940 version with Sabu and Conrad Veidt). One of the most wonderful films ever made, and my choice for the best fantasy film ever.
(and in a funny sort of way, it has the same fairy tale quality that Moffat aims for in Who. But even Moffat can’t match the genius of this movie)
10 January 2013 at 05:04 #1093Blake’s 7. Servelan…perhaps the all-time great TV villain.
10 January 2013 at 04:35 #1089Having read about all the things currently in play for the 50th (audio celebrations, short stories, etc) I have been trying to think about what is, and is not, likely in a Moffat-penned special.
First off, Moffat is writing for a very broad audience–ageing enthusiasts like us (well, the ageing bit is me anyhow), Linda Lee, eight-year olds, an English audience, an American audience…you get the point.
Now, while a show that referenced and maybe somehow showed, previous Doctors, like the 1st and the 4th, would be brilliant for enthusiasts like us, it could, on the other hand, be meaningless for most eight-year olds, who might, quite reasonably, respond with: “who’s that person?”
So, how can he be true to the spirit and legacy of the 50 years of the show without falling into the trap of appealing only to the fans with an ecyclopaedic knowledge of the show? Knowing Moffat, he will keep the focus tight–probably on Matt Smith and not a whole range of other Doctors, while using a plot structure that references the history of the show (just like he did with “The Snowmen”, where the general audience could respond to Clara and the family and the enthusiasts could get excited about references to The Great Intelligence and the London Underground map from 1967).
So, I am not at all convinced that we will necessarily see the other Doctors. But I do think the history of the show will be central. One way of doing it is not to use old Doctors, but to use (rebuild) old Tardis interiors. I remain convinced that there was a narrative point to the current re-design of the Tardis, and it could be that we will see previous versions of the Tardis interior/console. Which would be really cool. Imagine a brand-new (as it were) Hartnell-era Tardis, with the white walls and the simple console. I don’t know about you, but that would bring tears to my eyes!
So what sort of story might it be? As I have said before, I think it will be about “family”. All of Moffat is. And (to go back to my point about the broad audience) it is the one theme that can communicate to everyone–from eight-year olds to fifty-eight year olds. And for that, you don’t really need the other Doctors.
Having said all that, I would love to hear Hartnell’s voice again.
9 January 2013 at 23:56 #1079@juniperfish. Box Set. It is so ironic that the BBC is no lovingly restoring old stories that they once thought so little of that they wiped them.
I just hope that for the 50th thye commit to more and more reconstructions–even of stories that now only have one surviving episode. Is there anyone on this board that would not like to see even a cartoon reconstruction of all the missing episodes of “The Dalek’s Masterplan”?
9 January 2013 at 23:29 #1075@phaseshift. The 5 Doctor audio sounds great. I must put in my order.
I wonder if this means that Moffat won’t revisit old Doctors in the 50th special?
9 January 2013 at 09:26 #1017Could not agree more. The one drawback to life in the colonies.
So hot that the iced tea evaporates between the glass and my mouth,
Having a bad effect on Whovian concentration.
8 January 2013 at 22:25 #901I have always thought that the voices of the previous Doctors (perhaps with enhanced old footage) would work better than new actors or old, corpulent Doctors. It would be easier to match the voices than the physical appearance of the actors.
If they decide to reference previous Doctors, that is.
8 January 2013 at 11:15 #7378 January 2013 at 09:01 #717Hi @craig, et al,
I fear I caused this question, so I feel it incumbent upon me to make a responsible suggestion.
For the moment, I would leave it as it is. The thread on the 50th anniversary will capture thoughts on the forthcoming episodes, along with the 23 Nov special (assuming there is such a thing, which is still speculation.)
8 January 2013 at 03:17 #705@juniperfish. But I am the day-shift, you are the night-shift! (You see, time travel is complicated even on this board!)
Agree about cross-posting. Will avoid from now on.
Part of the appeal of the idea of the rebooted, but corrupted, universe is that it allows Moffat to deal with the fact that over the 50 year span of the show, there have been countless times when characters should have known events but didn’t, or when different Doctors were in the same time frame (eg, the 10th and Martha went to the moon lift-off (Blink) while the 11th was in rocket at Cape Canaveral before the lift-off. (Have I remembered that correctly?).
And it allows him to address the fact that the history of Earth constantly changes from Doctor to Doctor (eg, Susan is left on Earth after the Dalek Invasion, but other stories take place as if that never happened). The ideea that versions of the other Doctors have to help the 11th unscramble it all sounds sort of cool to me (and sufficiently audacious to have a Moffat-like feel to it)
8 January 2013 at 01:49 #701@juniperfish and @edmund
I am going to cross-post this reply to your points about crossed time streams, the exploding Tardis and the fields of Tranzilor, it seems as relevant to this thread as to the 50th anniversary thread (I suspect the overlap between threads holds the potential for getting out of hand. But no matter, as we seem to be all reading all the thread simultaneously!)
Anyway, could it be that the re-booted universe is corrupted (in the computer sense) and that it will lead to a jumbling of time streams that only the other Doctors can unscramble? (I am trying to think of a scenario where the whole history of Who is integral to the story the 50th anniversary show). This is something that Moffat has said he wants to do–ie, do justice to the whole history of Who. And although Moffat lies, I do not think he would lie about that.
And yes, I know, this has not necessarily got anything to do with Kennedy, although it may have 4th wall possibilities.
Finally, should I be cross-posting? If it is too chaotic, I will abide by the vox populi.
8 January 2013 at 01:48 #699@juniperfish and @edmund
I am going to cross-post this reply to your points about crossed time streams, the exploding Tardis and the fields of Tranzilor, it seems as relevant to this thread as to the 50th anniversary thread (I suspect the overlap between threads holds the potential for getting out of hand. But no matter, as we seem to be all reading all the thread simultaneously!)
Anyway, could it be that the re-booted universe is corrupted (in the computer sense) and that it will lead to a jumbling of time streams that only the other Doctors can unscramble? (I am trying to think of a scenario where the whole history of Who is integral to the story the 50th anniversary show). This is something that Moffat has said he wants to do–ie, do justice to the whole history of Who. And although Moffat lies, I do not think he would lie about that.
And yes, I know, this has not necessarily got anything to do with Kennedy, although it may have 4th wall possibilities.
Finally, should I be cross-posting? If it is too chaotic, I will abide by the vox populi.
7 January 2013 at 23:24 #687@edmund. Wow, they are great finds! And rather than an explanation that they were just mistakes (which would be boring!), could they hint at something about alternate time-streams?
More thinking required.
7 January 2013 at 04:13 #595A separate thread on rumours. Hmm. With overtones of the forbidden? I like it!
7 January 2013 at 04:00 #591If you found a link today on your way to work, I do hope you don’t drive to work.
I am all in favour of hearing rumours, so, depending on the views of other, pass them on.
7 January 2013 at 01:41 #579Loved the clip of the companions/friends, but…where was the wonderful Caitlin Blackwood as Amelia?
6 January 2013 at 23:35 #575Website keeps getting better and better. Simple, but elegant, and easy to navigate. If only you were running my employer’s IT team!
6 January 2013 at 09:19 #501Hi @bobbingbird. Come on over to the new page @craig has created on the 50th anniversary. More potential for bonkers theorising and responses.
Hi @craig. Any chance of putting a link to that on the main page? It is sort of hidden at present.
6 January 2013 at 09:11 #499To return. I suppose what I am grasping towards is a way that a 4th wall theory might work. I think Moffat is capable of incredible things. In particular, I think he can be very, very, clever in his storytelling. And that is why I am attracted to the idea that Moffat might attempt something that most writers might avoid as being too fraught with the potential for disaster–namely, a 4th wall explanation. But think back to the narrative cleverness of “Blink”. There is a reason why we all remember that show so fondly.
But having said all that, do I know what will happen? No. But to rise to the challenge of @scaryb, what sort of bonkers story for the 50th would I like? Well, on the one hand, one that brought back Canton, and one that what so clever, we would talk about it endlessly. Maybe there is a story that is not a 4th wall explanation that would do that. OK, what is it?
6 January 2013 at 08:47 #495Damn! Just lost a great post before it was finished. Will try and reconstruct it.
Since the 50th may be a stand-alone story, unconnected with the question of “who is Clara?”, could it be my Kenndey theor?. What was my Kennedy theory? (Middle-age short term memory loss)
I do recall a throw-away line in “Let’s Kill Hitler” (a Moffat episode): “Time can be re-written–remember Kennedy”. Does Moffat throw anything in that is not relevant later on? I tend to think not. And what about the 4th wall? Well, there seems to be a sort of un-spoken assumption throughout the last 50 years that the show inhabits the same time and space as we, the audience, do. In spite of evidence to the contrary–Daleks, Cybermen in Victorian London, UNIT, etc, etc. But…what if our history was only one history? And what if “Doctor Who” could exist as a reality in one history and as a show in another?
Where am I going with this? No idea. Time for another glass.
5 January 2013 at 20:39 #473Now, some coffee-enhanced ideas….
Given that the 50th will involve both the remaining episodes of season 7 and a movie length episode (and perhaps more–minisodes, etc), there is the possibility that the remaining episodes could focus on one thing and the movie for the 23 November on something else.
This means that the episodes could be about “who is Clara?” and the movie something anniversary-themed. I begin to see the potential for the revival of the Kennedy theory and the return of Canton!
More thoughts after more coffee.
5 January 2013 at 19:49 #471Ahh, the thread I was waiting for! Thanks @craig, the site looks great. Now, first some coffee to stimulate the groggy blenkinsop brain.
5 January 2013 at 00:36 #391Thanks for the link back to the Guardian blog. I must own up to say that the two parter is one of my favourites. i know that does not accord with most people’s opinion, but I thought the themes ( best of humanity) were classic Who, and as a middle-aged romantic, I could not help but like the two middle-aged scientists who stay behind. (I would love to see them again in a future story.)
4 January 2013 at 02:40 #329@phaseshift. I am honoured that you think I might have anything of worth to say on the “Lost in Time” dvd. But it might be a bit premature, as I myself have not yet explored all of its riches. Here is the amazon link, with a description of its contents:
Needless to say, every Whovian should have one!
4 January 2013 at 01:23 #323More Google. All 11 Doctors? Well, could work well if they are disembodied and we hear their voices, but do we really want to see older and more corpulent Doctors (as much as I love them all)? Still remain convinced in a 4th wall explanation (and in a family revelation), but, with great regret, I might have to say goodbye to my Kennedy theory. And I was so hoping to see Canton again.
4 January 2013 at 01:06 #321A quick search of Google and I answered my own question. 90 minute special to film in Febuary…Hurrah!
4 January 2013 at 00:12 #319@phaseshift. More than happy to embrace a mention of “The Eleventh Hour”. My feeling about Moffat, is that while he loves referencing stuff from the whole 50 years of the show, his main themes and the driving force behind his arcs, come exclusively from material he has introduced himself. Consequently, in looking for the way that the 50th might play out, I think all the clues are there from “The Eleventh Hour” on. (but also including Moffat-scripted shows like those in the Library and Blink).
So, for example, while the 50th may involve past Doctors in some way, it will be in the context of themes that Moffat himself has intoduced.
That is why I think the 50th will be about family, as this is very much a Moffat theme, and not as obvious in the pre-Moffat Who.
On another tack, when we talk about “the 50th”, are we talking about the episodes that start in April? Because they will be over well before November 23. Or is it likely that there will a big movie-length stand-alone for Nov 23? Has anyone heard anything to this effect?
3 January 2013 at 11:06 #273I keep thinking about the new Tardis interior. Why? What is the POINT of the makeover?
3 January 2013 at 00:17 #255Doctor’s 6th sense. But would a daughter of the Doctor and River necessarily be a Timelord? (I am not talking of Jenny, and I do not think it was ever established that Susan was a Timelord, was it?) Even though River was conceieved on the Tardis and could regenerate, that did not make her a dual-heart Timelord.
When he gave Clara the key and folded her fingers around it, that seemed very paternal to me. He knows she is special, but he does not yet know why.
And in my Clara-as-daughter theory, I am not assuming Clara is necessarily aware that she is his daughter (re: the kiss).
2 January 2013 at 21:45 #249Clara as Tardis. Two reservations.
1. She seems strangely innocent of it when she first sees it.
2. It would diminish Gaiman’s episode to revisit the idea.
Of more interest to me is why the Tardis interior has been changed. What is the narrative logic of doing it?
2 January 2013 at 03:43 #163Lunch. Back to important things. I have been thinking about @chickenelly‘s thought that Clara might be an (re)incarnation of River. To support it, does not River say to Amy in the “Angels” something along the lines of: “Never let him see you get old. He doesn’t like it.” Therefore, (running with this idea) when River finds a way of becoming an avatar of herself in the library it is as a young women. But why? I suppose the reasoning is somewhat similar to Hugh Hefner’s choice of wives–1000 year-old man likes to be married to 26 year-old.
No, this is sounding too daft. If it is River, there has to be a really good reason for it, beyond the Hugh Hefner rationale.
But if she was his daughter (even an avatar from the library somehow) it would have a good narrative logic (ie, all my reasons above, minus the embarrassing chemistry mistake).
More thought required. Lunch break coming to an end. Damn.
1 January 2013 at 22:28 #157Sorry, can’t help myself. It also occured to me that the Great Intelligence in “The Abominable Snowmen” came from, and was banished back to, the astral plane.
Obviously, my mind is not on work.
1 January 2013 at 22:20 #155Whoops. I meant that the old meanings of both Oswin and Oswald were God’s gift and God’s power respectively.
Back to work.
1 January 2013 at 21:18 #153Morning all. Reading the recent posts, leads me off in another (but related) direction. In light of the suggestions that Clara might exist in some version of the Library, how about the idea of Clara as Avatar? Not simply in the computer, or James Cameron, sense, but in the religious sense as an avatar as the representation of the divine in the real world? (Has this and below already been pointed out? If so, profuse apolgies.)
Our resident chemist, @phaseshift, notes that CO2 possesses qualities that are sublime. The old English/old German meaning of Oswin were God’s gift, and God’s power, respectively.
Now, I am not sure I want to buy into this interpretation. It seems too far removed from the origins of the show, but I suppose it is worthwhile noting.
Off to work now. Back later.
1 January 2013 at 02:54 #127@bobbingbird. I knew there was a reason why I failed science at all levels at the end of high school. Damn! And the theory seemed so good up until that point. Oh well, back to the Kennedy theory, I suppose…
Then again, if Sherlock doesn’t know that the earth goes round the sun, why should I let inconvenient evidence get in the way of a good theory!
31 December 2012 at 23:18 #115Hello @phaseshift! So far, 2013 is mighty fine and hangover-free!
31 December 2012 at 23:16 #113OK, it is New Year’s day in the colonies, and I imagine that most of the Enthusiasts and various fishes (even the fish who is not a fish but a free man) are still celebrating and drinking like…well…fish. So I will start the new year with some thoughts.
There are still some great new ideas circulating back on the Guardian blog about the Doctor remembering. Given that I think this will be a major factor in 2013, over on the Guardian blog over the past couple of weeks, I and others have played around with the idea that Clara could be a Pond. I am now willing to nail my colours to the mast and state that Clara will turn out to be the Doctor’s daughter for the following reasons:
1. It has been stated (somewhere…BBC?) that Clara will turn out to be the most important person in the Doctor’s life.
2. Under Moffat, there has been an overwhelming emphasis on “family”. Season 5: Amy, the little girl with no family, who remembers her family back into existence at her wedding. Season 6: River is revealed to be Amy’s daughter, and the Doctor marries River. The family is both revealed and expanded.
3. At Demon’s Run, just before River reveals her identity to Amy, she reveals to the Doctor who is is, but in an oblique and unstated way, by taking his hand and placing it on his cot (“I am telling you”). I believe what she is telling him is that she is the mother of his child.
4. In “Forest of the Dead” just before River dies, she whisper’s the Doctor’s name to him. He is astounded, because he would only have revealed his name at the most important of times. What could be more important that the birth of a child?
5. Back in Moffat’s two-parter “Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead” we are introduced to a little girl who turns out to be the mainframe of the computer that controls the library: CAL–Charlotte Abigal Lux. In “Asylum of the Daleks” we are introduced to a girl who turns out to be the mainframe of a Dalek. In “The Snowmen” we find out her full name is Clara Oswin Oswald–COO, or CO2, or “water”. Water, Pond, River.
6. Clara knows enough about the Doctor to know that the one word that will galvanise him into action is “pond”.
7. She spends part of the episode taking his hand and running, to which the Doctor replies something along the lines of: “Hey, I’m supposed to do that!”.
Now, if I am right, Clara is the daughter of the Doctor and River. But not necessarily the 11th Doctor. After all, River has been meeting the Doctor out of order and, if I remember correctly, she has seen the faces of all of the Doctors (ie, including those from the future).
Over on the Guardian blog, @Nathaniel Morgan made the excellent suggestion that the 50th will go back to the origins of the Doctor and his intial departure from Gallifrey, and the amazing @bluesqueakpip followed it up with:
It could also make an anniversary connection with his first companion, his granddaughter Susan. It’s now generally presumed Susan was his biological granddaughter (rather than someone he’d found when she was a baby).
If Clara turns out to be the Doctor’s daughter, then it is highly likely that she is the mother of Susan.
So, if, as I believe, Moffat always writes about family (the loss of family, the rediscovery of family in everything he has done for Who (including, if you think about it “Blink”), then we are leading up to a huge revelation about family.
31 December 2012 at 22:29 #109Avatar is back (sort of). Still a work in progress. Still getting used to site, but…a working site for bonkers theorising! Hurrah! Endless thanks to Craig!
OK, will play around with avatar, and come back with all the thoughts that were stimulated by the prodigious amounts of New Year’s champagne.
31 December 2012 at 11:45 #57Hi Craig,
I think I am in, but I’m not sure. Since it is night in the colonies, I will check back in the morning and see if it has worked.
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