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22 April 2013 at 12:07 #6365
@badwolf99 – I absolutely love your idea, especially that she’s self fulfilling paradox, that has to exist well… because it already exists. This is essentially how the universe came into existence out of the quantum foam (or zero point energy as it’s more usually called) and failed thereafter to fail to exist (which is what usually happens).
(it also means the doctor is just making it worse by moving her around the universe, changing more stuff, thereby cementing her more firmly into the universe)
The nice thing about your idea is that she doesn’t actually have to have “superpowers” per se (i.e. she actually wills the ice warriors to show mercy with a song). It’s just her presence alone made history shift on a different course, like she’s a big, walking, timey-wimey butterfly effect.
Imagine in the same way mass distorts space-time, as an anomaly, a mobile point of flux, she’s distorting cause and effect, the flow (rather than the fabric) of time, and every time she does it, her distorting effect gets bigger (she’s accruing “causational mass”, just like a black hole accrues mass)
It’s a real, really good, almost hard sci-fi idea … which would be quite a leap for DW (which is generally the land of sciency-wiency mumbo-jumbo. Dare we believe Moffatt would be that radical (for Who)?
The only problem – if she is such a thing… how can she possibly die? The body might expire but the distorion would have to continue to exist, surely?
21 April 2013 at 23:29 #6334@juniperfish – I’m getting the impression that your mega-post (I believe the official scale is big, huge, gargantu, mega, titanic, gigs, eye-watering, juniper, HTPBDET ) is slightly tongue in cheek. But …
It’s hugely complicated when reverse engineered, but if you just started with a “from now on we’ll colour code red for positive, blue for negative, whatever opportunity we get” it’s really easy to pull off consistently. And I suspect they did. It might be a red+blue herring, but I’ve absolutely no doubt now that they are doing it. You appear to have been right all along, assuming no one can find a case where the colour coding was the opposite of what you describe…
21 April 2013 at 23:03 #6330@ardaraith – jeez lady, great observation work!!!! Those are some peepers you have there!
21 April 2013 at 23:00 #6329@bluesqueakpip – aaaaah but it’s interesting how little redesign has gone into the zygon, and it’s not a great realisation. Like they didn’t spend *that* much on it…
Also it seems to crop up in the background of every pap shot … Suspiciously so!
Seems like quite a small price to pay for a complete misdirection (and a lot less than occupying trafalgar square, which plenty of people were happy to write off as a distraction for filming elsewhere)
21 April 2013 at 21:35 #6320And a thought about zygons. Although I love your idea @bluesqueakpip, @jimthefish I think you’re right, there is no way they would reveal the real baddie. I think the zygon is a total misdirection, I bet they don’t appear at all. I think they just picked a nice recognisable costume. Also – literally a “red” herring. Arf!
21 April 2013 at 21:20 #6319Couple of thoughts I had waiting for the kettle to boil:
1) surely e-space is a pocket universe (nice callback to logopolis with the entropy references)? In which case, why did the tardis operate fine in e-space rather then immediately expiring?
2) Now I think about it, the tardis entered e-space in Full Cirle by apparently exploding (on a string, blatantly)…
21 April 2013 at 20:40 #6314@shazzbot – if you “like” the idea of a bug being eaten alive by parasites eggs AND want to see a story that explains why the doc adores humans, man struggle with what it means to be human, what free will is, and ultimately what a human is capable of (leaving the doc a mere bystander to history – a common theme of Tom bakers first series) please do get hold of a copy of Ark in Space.
Substitute bug and parasite with “last human” and Wirrn, and you get the idea… Lord knows how they got away with that a tea time…
Good point about the doc being “our” god. Like a god he protects us (saying as much in 11th Hour), sometime from ourselves and maybe stops us from growing up and taking responsibility for ourselves (even turning on us if we try to, as happened at the end of the Xmas invasion). I really like that,it has huge implications. This is essentially the story of the Minyans in Underworld (Baker again) whose immaturity (due to timelords oversight) lead the timelords to withdraw from the universe. How ironic if the doc ultimately repeats the same mistake!
21 April 2013 at 19:50 #6307@shazzbot– it’s a love/hate relationship I grant you! In spite of himself you might say.
But you said it all with “you can be so much better”. We’re in the quagmire, but from up there with a view of all our history, he knows the heights we’re capable of, even if we sometimes forget.
This crosses right over into my “meritocracy” thread – its a mission statement of the series to show what we humans are capable of given the chance, enabled by the doc…
21 April 2013 at 18:52 #6302@shazzbot – the 1996 American tv movie tried to answer exactly the question you pose, by introducing the idea that his mother was human (ie Spock). Feel free to gnash your teeth for a while. I can wait.
Ready? Ok. Personally I think the docs soliloquy in ark in space neatly does the job: he just admires our indomitable spirit and taste for adventure (in contrast to his own staid gallifreyan upbringing I suppose). From his perspective we crawled all the way off our rock and all over the galaxy in just a few centuries. Not to invade but just to have a look (just like he did). Basically, he likes the cut of our jib. Top notch!
21 April 2013 at 18:35 #6300@shazzbot – I agree that turn left ultimately was fairly banal, but for a while when rose shows up you are left thinking “who the hell really is Donna to warrant all this?”.
I can think of a specific scene set at the shadow proclamation; Donna is sat on steps, fiddling with an ornate ring I had never noticed her wear before, in the background you suddenly hear the double drumbeat of a timelord heart, and Donna clutches at her head in pain …
I jumped out of my seat and shouted “shiiiiiiiiit. She’s the frigging master!!!!!”. Turns out it was some foreshadowing of the meta crisis.
But you see what I mean. Even for “everyday, I’m dead ordinary I am” Donna they were dropping the occasional “something’s not quite right” hints.
21 April 2013 at 18:24 #6298@phileasf – 100% agree! Although I’m not sure about the dream lord, but I think the idea that the doctor is starting to persecute (the thin end of the wedge being he’s being less than honest with her as Emma could see) an innocent girl is looking very likely. The ultimate horrible irony – and the final downfall for the doc – will be if his paranoia causes whatever it is that eventually befalls her. You can’t really fall further than that.
Is this dalekisation – or the inevitable result of a man discovering the woman he loves was his assassin, his companion (amy) was a doppleganger spy, everyone he loves is a target of forces unknown and there’s a shadowy galactic conspiracy out to get him? HANS being reactivated looks like an act of paranoia to me.
And yes I feel the same that everything looks like a potential reference. My first post this morning was essentially admitting clue-fatigue! It’s like they’ve raided the reference dressing up box and used everything.
21 April 2013 at 15:44 #6284@scaryb – totally could be read that “not happy”=”I’m terrified” and emmas observation as they leave the house supports that… Until the flashback then it becomes the evidence that they were not alone in the house. But you are right that that It’s not the doc that makes Amy special, it’s what happens to her by choosing to travel with him. Her choice. Meritocracy!
@scaryb and @shazzbot – personally I don’t think moffatt is breaking the “not special” rule, just that he keeps playing the timely wimey card – he shows the result of the end of their journey (eg Amy’s – um – crack) at the beginning of the story to confuse the cause and effect.
I don’t agree that Donna was portrayed as normal – there were increasing hints that there was something special about her culminating in turn left. Rose was not normal, since bad wolf was scattered all through series 1, which turned out to be her. The only difference with those 2 and Amy and Clara is then the doc was oblivious, now he’s hyper aware if it. Arguably the is moffatts only change to the formula.
21 April 2013 at 15:29 #6282@shazzbot – the actress Kemi-Bo Jacobs has only ever appeared on tv elsewhere in Lewis. But as noted elsewhere, the costume is familiar …
21 April 2013 at 15:02 #6276@shazzbot @ardaraith the arm around clara moment is really interesting:
1) as the doc says “this is a love story”, Clara smiles to herself in a very particular “I think he likes me” kind of way. The docs sudden embarrassment only underscores it. He’d only be self conscious if he actually did…
2) Clara’s “big chin” line – call back to aotd yes, but also as if the docs face is very much on her mind… It’s almost like at that moment she realises it.
3) is Clara an empath? There’s one very good bit of evidence – the “I dont feel happy” line of Claras (which drew stick as an immature line for her) is in the docs realisation flashback. The obvious implication is that Clara was picking up the earth bound monsters unhappiness, not feeling it herself I can’t see any other reason for it to be in the flashback otherwise.
4) Clara says regarding romance with the doc “I don’t think so” just moments after emma(?) says “(empaths) like me are very bad at reading signals of people we like”
And to cap it off, the whole love never dies / calls across time schtick may imply that Clara may mean something romantically to him (or will do). One possibility is of course that she is another incarnation of river, or his first wife that the doctors daughter implied that he had children with.
However …
All the indications are that right now Clara is a normal human. To me this implies that whatever makes her special lies in her future. So no descended from doc/Susan, probably no chameleon arch (although it s possiblity, I don’t think it gets into the spirit of moffatts maxim that it is all about the companions journey, not the doctors. We are therefore at the start of her journey, not the end. Timely wimey. I just don’t think we can therefore guess why she’s special because it hasn’t happened yet)
There’s another unspoken core maxim of Who (which lungbarrow/the other broke as did the tv movie to a lesser extent which is why I dislike both so much) which is this: neither the doctor or the companions are born to greatness. There are not superheroes. They chose to step up. The doc says this explicitly in Rings and Clara realises it in cold war (“that’s what we do, we save the world”). Meritocracy is fundamental to who mythology.
For Clara to step into the whoniverse with a special ability breaks that tenet, and no companion ever has. Amy turned out to be “special” because she met the doc, not the other way round. The same with donna, who also had early hints of special significance. (The tragedy of Donna was that she couldn’t live with the change that stepping up wrought on her, double by the fact she so clearly needed that change to be a complete person)
I do not believe moffatt will ever break this rule, if anything he’s underlining it 3 times in thick black marker. Ipso facto, Clara is not special – yet.
Re: sliver of ice; could be creeping dalekisation, could just be his deep dark secret (which incidentally the next ep hints could be that he keeps something prisoner in the tardis…)
Re chalk circle btw – I don’t think it was smoke, it was the chalk dust rising. I think the circle just emphisised that time traveller wasn’t moving. I don’t think it will be referred to again, personally.
21 April 2013 at 13:48 #6267@phaseshift – going over next weeks clip, you can take swimming pool off the sweepstake as you can clearly see it (under an open sky!) through a doorway. It looks suspiciously lined with giant bookshelves…
21 April 2013 at 13:19 #6263@shazzbot (cc @phaseshift) … “all your theory are belong to us” 😀
Mr Shift ( or can I call you Phase?) – good call on nightmare man, Bob Holmes at his best. Leaped on it when it came out on DVD. Had a profound influence on me as a kid and I reworked it as a 10 yr old as DW fanfic starring … GI and yeti, of all things.
21 April 2013 at 13:16 #6261@juniperfish – chin not only up … But unusually prominent! 😀
21 April 2013 at 10:33 #6248Well less than 24 hours after I posted that I would like the idea that the eye of harmony resides in the tardis (instead of under the panopticon on gallifrey) expunged from history, the doc wheels out a “subset” of the eye, apparently on castors.
Apart from being hugely irritating that that must mean the execrable movie is being taken as canon, does that count as a bang on prediction (of sorts)?
The frustrating thing with this episode from the old theorising POV is that it’s firing clues and references pretty equally in every direction – its somehow managed to reinforce every possible conflicting theory (E.g. Familial love reaching across time and romantic love between universes), like one of those automatic tennis ball launchers, but loaded with fan service.
21 April 2013 at 00:22 #6226Well we definitely saw something impossible this week. The T-Box (I really am going to persist with that until it catches on) really doesn’t like Clara. And you know what that means?
I. Was. Wrong.
Like I say – impossible! 😀
20 April 2013 at 23:46 #6221@jimthefish – arf! He’d only pick an argument with Russell T Dave-fish …
20 April 2013 at 23:42 #6218@scaryb @craig – No nesting? Well who wants to break that bombshell to @chickenelly? (Maybe that’s whey bobbingbird can’t fly over?)
I demand more egg friendly facilities! We can’t be – um – eggs-cluding … !
20 April 2013 at 23:36 #6215@bluesqueakpip – “So, do we now have a shoal?” We shurely do!
Shurely everyone knowsh that fishes don’t have shoals …(hic)?
20 April 2013 at 23:33 #6214… Something Fishy This Way Comes …
20 April 2013 at 10:53 #6132@craig – the problem with that idea is that star trek tos was recorded on film, and arguably looks better remastered than tng. (Certainly mixing old and new footage looks great, but even then, that was done on standard definition video, i don’t know if that ds9 show would stand up if it had been done in hd, or if remastered)
Doctor who though is mostly poor quality video tape (even the outside broadcast film suffers from poor cinematography because of budget constraints) and just looks awful. Intermixed with modern hd footage would just throw that into sharp relief. Oh and 2 docs are in b&w, and colouration never works.
In short, although technically feasible, I just don’t think you’d end up with footage that could be broadcastable in hd, let alone could be recast into 3d (a process which requires hd quality original footage).
If anything, you’d be more successful filming the original actors in new hd footage and re-ageing them with cgi, as attempted in the last x-men movie. And that looked pants.
I think the star just went trawling blog speculation for some ideas for copy. Probably us! (hello star journos!)
19 April 2013 at 22:15 #6103@phaseshift – 1,000,000:1 at some point someone says about the tardis “OMG…actually, it’s full of stars”
1,000,000,000:1 a gravity bubble with another police box at the centre
1,000,000,000,000: the eye of harmony – because we all ate too much cheese before bed in 1996 and dreamed that one. It. Never. Happened. OK?
I’d say 4ths secondary control room should defo be on there too (200:1 ?)
Romana’s bedroom (150:1 ?) – jettisoned I think?
Boot cupboard (20:1) – extra points if the doc makes a joke like “who’s shoes are these?”
The ponds bunk bed (30:1)
Nyssas lab (80:1 ?) – that was in terminus, right? Or have I made that one up?
Cloister and zero rooms, boot cupboard and bunk bed for me please, Bob!
19 April 2013 at 20:07 #6082Sorry, but nightmare in silver is a rubbish title. Neil, please feel free to help yourself to my unused cyberman story names:
When in chrome
Much ado about rusting
Tin god we trust
I would have got away with it too, if it wasn’t for those metal/tin kids
The alloy of sex
Hope I die before I get gold
Anodised and confused
The zinc panther strikes again
You can’t put a gold head on young shoulders
Time to separate the men from the alloys
All work and no play makes jack a dull alloy
Polly, put the metal on
Better dead than lead(Yes … I am bored)
19 April 2013 at 00:02 #6056@bluesqueakpip – hmmmm maybe “same bunch of atoms” isn’t the best phrase since as you say you can shed all of them over 12 month and still be the same person. In the same way, you can shed all your atoms (through regeneration, arch or just the passage of time) but you’d still as an entity carry the same charge potential. A better analogy – you could spend 18 months on Mir orbiting earth and technically by then be a 100% completely different set of atoms – but you’d still have exactly the same kinetic energy potential, relative to the earth.
I quite like the idea myself, its a typical bit of whovian ingenuity; it would be shame to see it dumped. It also has the – ahem – “potential” to explain fixed points in time; a fixed point is simply the lowest stable energy configuration of a point in time. Doesn’t matter what you do, that’s the state the universe wants to return to (e.g. as in Waters of Mars) – highly energetically, if it has to.
… There’s only 2 things you can’t fight – City Hall and energy gradients 😀 .
Do the Kazran’s touch in Christmas Carol? If not, its still an open point if time potential is in play (If so that would be a hugely risky game the Doctor played)
18 April 2013 at 20:23 #6043@bluesqueakpip – it’s an interesting question. I’d say if it’s a law of physics (the mawdryn undead view) then I don’t think it matters if you’re regenerated or chameleon arched, you’re the same bunch of atoms and youre carrying the same time potential relative to your other time frame self.
If its a matter changing a time of flux into a fixed point, then memory and perception could be everything (and I like that, as much of what we know think of time is as attributable ad much to our perception as reality. Specifically there is no construct in physics for the “progress” of time). But that still doesn’t stop you accidentally creating a paradox, so that seems a bit flimsy. But it interestingly would give the doc another reason to erase his memory, if he had to cross his path for some reason…
Probably it’s both. I get the feeling it’s timelord law (like driving the wrong way up the motorway) that’s there for your own and others protection. Technically you can break it, but you’d be so spectacularly stupid to do so you think you’d hardly need a “law” at all*. The doc basically is not foolhardy enough to risk it. Chameleon arched therefore still wouldn’t be enough protection because what if someone un-arched you at a crucial moment (leaving aside the time potential discharge problem for a moment)?
No matter which way you look at it though, the docs behaviour in fathers day makes no sense, relative to everything before or since.
*I wonder if timelords watch an equivalent of a CCTV footage tv show called “time travellers do the stupidest things?”…
18 April 2013 at 09:04 #6017@thedoctordude – you are correct the doc has stated he can’t cross his personal time line, notably after adrics death to explain why he can’t just keep popping back to fix things that went awry first/second then third time around.
Its a bit ambiguous whether it’s a rule or physically impossible, but mawdryn undead hints that it’s because if you – ahem – touch yourself from a different time period, youll blow the universe up discharging the time potential (or something)
Either way, it suggests multi doctor romps are only possible when the time lords allow it/make it possible and this seems to be consistently the case in all “the N doctors” stories.
Fathers Day is a therefore massive anomaly (although it does comply with the “can’t touch” imperative” since the doc carefully avoids his other selves)
For me, this rules out that Clara is physically the same doctor. But it doesn’t mean she’s not a container such as a ganger for the doctor, or maybe a doc from an alternative dimension (which seems to be OK) laws of time-wise.
18 April 2013 at 08:02 #6015@emmoftheess – it’s probably tennants rather than matts T-box?
16 April 2013 at 21:05 #5853@juniperfish – which one is the Doctor … :-O
16 April 2013 at 20:57 #5845@bluesqueakpip @jimthefish @thommck @htpbdet – I know I’ve said this before but I think the tardis doors were a test; the doc knew he had very presumptively given another incarnation of Clara a key; he wanted to see what would happen if she unexpectedly found the Tardis shut.
Would she know she needed a key (the doc being careful not to use the key in front of her thus far – hence leaving it open) and therefore be unconsciously sharing knowledge with other incarnations? Would she actually have a key (so be sharing physically with the other incarnations)? Nope, she seemed oblivious that a key was even necessary (so no sharing at all, physically or unconsciously)
We were wondering why he disappeared in the market – he simply popped back to lock up so Clara couldn’t observer him operating the doors. Occams Razor and all that – its the simplest explanation.
16 April 2013 at 12:39 #57618. Clara is fragmented by being in the Tardis when it explodes/collides with itself causing the original explosion in Pandorica Opens.
16 April 2013 at 12:32 #5757I wonder if Moffat is aware of this site
… ah yeah. Um, there’s something I’ve been meaning to tell you guys …
16 April 2013 at 12:24 #5751the symbols which identified the “bad” wi-fi source looked to me like they might have been Dalek symbols.
… they might look a bit Dalek but they’re actually just standard “characters” in the standard Windows (Win-1592) character set.
15 April 2013 at 17:37 #5661@phileasf – you make a pretty compelling argument! I love the idea that he’s now brandishing the screwdriver like a dalek weapon.
It would certainly make a humdinger of a series cliff hanger if the doc re-evaluates everything this series in flashback (maybe that’s the YouCleverBoy program running), wakes up, remembers, the camera pans back … aaaaaaaand he’s a dalek. Cue credits. Doctor Who will return in November…
I’d say the conversion point would be towards the end of asylum; he went off looking for clara … and never came back. The asylum was never destroyed. Clara is still a dalek.
“its all a dream” never goes down well with audiences though – I’m thinking Dallas and St Elsewhere here – so its a huge risk to try and pull off. I guess the big clue to watch for is the doc actually “firing” the screwdriver in the next few eps …
14 April 2013 at 23:45 #5627As a coda to my screwdriver survey a while back, it has just occurred to me that with the appearance of “Red mode” confirming handover to River is imminent (though sure the date to the singing towers already happened in a mini-sode?) they are building the sonic up so the handover to river will be so much more poignant (the docs already shown how inseparable he is from it in Rings).
So maybe it’s apparent magic wand status is temporary and will soon be replaced with the bog standard one again (thank god)
14 April 2013 at 23:33 #5621@juniperfish – ha! I think you’re having one of those moments where the symbology this forum proposes is actually much more pleasing than the one the writer was actually capable of delivering … 😀
And that’s why spitballing with you guys is so much fun. Goodnight!
14 April 2013 at 23:26 #561914 April 2013 at 23:19 #5613@bluesqueakpip – I think that’s a pretty good reading. Maybe the doc is so taken with the idea of Clara being a perfect companion, he’s actually failing to make allowances for her need to be eased into the lifestyle like any normal person who doesn’t face homicidal aliens every day of the week. I suspect we’re wishing a bigger role for Warner just because he’s so bloody fantastic.
Anyway, the doctor can’t cross his own personal time line, unless the timelords allow an exception (appears to be the case in all other multi doctor stories).
Having said that, fathers day suggests without the timelords there to enforce that, the doc can pretty much do what he likes. Though if that were the case why not pop back retrospectively and catch rose, help Donna etc? Basically fathers day is some horrible continuity aberration…
14 April 2013 at 21:57 #5605@juniperfish – I have to agree with @htpbdet (it had to happen eventually!) the doc is just praying to himself, willing Skaldak to do the right thing. I think Clara is simply singing to herself to cope with the tension, just as the professor suggested earlier.
Though if the lyrics she happens to choose turn out to be meaningful … “I’m [was] lost and [now] I’m found and I’m hungry [to keep saving the world, like original Bad Wolf Rose]” would be pretty apt, actually…
14 April 2013 at 20:02 #5585@wolfweed – technically the other isn’t the doctor, but the doc is his clone. Im thinking moffatts plan is the doctor himself has a dark past, theres something within him he’s held in check for most of 900 years, but saying his name will release.
14 April 2013 at 19:20 #5575@bluesqueakpip – that allows for one heck of a cliffhanger since it allows the doc to be physically unrecoverably atomised. The solution is then to just to download him from clara into a convenient dopple. Bit Spock/McCoy though?
So that would make the person who scattered the Clara device through time for the doc to find would be … The doc?
14 April 2013 at 18:40 #5563@juniperfish – exactly @ardaraith, although I love the idea of river playing a long game on trust – and she certainly is manipulating the doc in a playful way – that gambit wouldn’t really engender trust, right then, in the library. Well it might, but it doesn’t square with rivers condolence, unless she’s simply apologising for giving away a spoiler, of course.
14 April 2013 at 17:36 #5539@juniperfish … Much as I’m rooting for you on the Egyptology front, that someone tried to unify pyramids of mars with the ice warriors canon is kind of inevitable, so maybe that does quite count … 😀
If the doc is tricked into revealing his name, that would fit with his “only way I could” phrasing and rivers apology, so I’m liking that a lot (though it kind of conflicts with her using it to build trust)
14 April 2013 at 17:15 #5537@wolfweed – ah the guardian is welcome to them, I’ve burnt my bridges. What worries me is what happens when they discover all this virgin territory…
@phaseshift – I like your idea that this Clara at least seems to be empty vessel without external stimulus (but then isn’t everybody in their early twenties?). Which suggests she some kind of trap designed to attach herself to the doctor as the “perfect” companion ( and perfect mystery)… I kind of got the impression that the professor wasn’t so much helping Clara through PTSD after seeing dead bodies (though to be fair that would be a perfectly normal reaction) as sounding out someone who didn’t seem quite “right” as a fully functioning individual… Which might give credence to the idea of Warner returning, as the person to unmask whatever she is (the doctor being completely blind to it)
14 April 2013 at 12:34 #5501@lula @juniperfish – that vortex rose creates Clara; I don’t think it stands up when you look at what rose actually says. She specifically says she scatters words, a message to herself (not life). She says she can create life after (not before as the tumbler page implies disingenuously) and from memory that is intercut with jack waking up, suggesting its specific to him.
There are defo rose clues though… The implication from above being that she is sending messages through time and they are intersecting with Clara, possibly are about Clara. Or maybe it’s just coincidence, because that’s just happens to be where the doctor is.
I’m increasingly intrigued by the docs phrase about saying his name – he says “only time I could” not “would”. This could imply tradition (eg marriage… Prob what we are supposed to think) or that there’s something physically stopping him … Which ties in with password protected memories someone suggested about Clara …
14 April 2013 at 00:20 #5447@lula – ah OK good point; that would give a different context to the Docs reply, “there’s only one way you could possibly know that”.
But it doesn’t explain the commiseration from River since she knows he survives, and to imply and let him think anything otherwise is surely unbelievably cruel (even to unequivocally gain his trust)?
13 April 2013 at 22:03 #5411@lula – well to be fair we’ve no idea what’s written on the cot, even if it’s his name, it could be *a* name but not *the* name, if you see what I mean.
Good point about the doc telling her something significant in LKH – but his name doesn’t seem a compelling reason for her to give up near immortality for … Does it?
Anyway even if he did, doesnt change my hypothesis: back in SITL, the doc had no way of knowing the circumstances of his name getting out, but River being at the end of her timeline knows that it eventually does become public (even if she personally knew it already from LKH, and we’ve yet to see the great “unveiling”). So her ott commiseration still makes sense.
13 April 2013 at 17:30 #5345@ardaraith – exactly! I think the “name when marrying” was a clever misdirection fuelled by audience expectation. But think about rivers reaction for a sec … “I’m so, so sorry [but we get hitched at some point in the future]”. Bit of an over reaction, surely? It certainly doesn’t sound like such a bad fate to me … If anything, in fact I’d be tempted to think “bloody hell, way hay. Lucks changed a bit”, frankly.
So yeah I think you’re spot on. I think to have revealed his name at all, to anyone, even River is to reveal his big secret, who he really is, and possibly that means the end of his life, either literally or at least the life of wandering he’s made for himself (hence reboot is therefore made imperative, and hences the gushing condolence from River)
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