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15 May 2013 at 00:41 #9154
Totally agree with your opinion @jimthefish way back that the key to the cybermen is not their militarism but that they are a scientic and medical horror – closer to morbius than the daleks.
I think thats why this ep didnt satisfy for many – what the cybermen need is Cronenberg in as a guest writer/director with his body horror schtick, rather than Gaiman’s whimsy…
9 May 2013 at 22:08 #8391@wolfweed – “Do you have a copy of Fly Fishing by J R Hartley? Yes? In which case you must be DELETED”
9 May 2013 at 22:04 #8390@wolfweed – “hello? is that NHS Direct? Yeah, we were just messing about with some tin foil, an accordian and a book on cybernetics… well I think its gone a bit far. Um, no. I dont think its going to come off with hot soapy water”
8 May 2013 at 23:58 #8283@shazzbot – deep sea divers? Bleurgh! I have a small castle, don’t you know!
From the turret I can see the sofa.
8 May 2013 at 23:24 #8281@shazzbot – is it too late to ask you to make an honest fish of me?
8 May 2013 at 23:17 #8280@pedant – touché, Sir, touché!
8 May 2013 at 22:45 #8275@ardaraith – “i would prefer to see the doctors unique world view and moral code explicitly expressed”
… well he kind of has (a bit) over the last few episodes with the “precious bundle” speech. Having said that, I’m not entirely sure he knows exactly what his morals are anymore, his lines are blurred relative to old who (hence the dark doctor theories)
8 May 2013 at 19:30 #8253@Shazzbot, @ardaraith – nothing explicitly mentioned by the showrunners that I know of , but the many subscribers to DWM on here will be more of an authority on that!
I think it’s just an artefact of him now being a war veteran, no more, no less. It shifted the boundaries of his ethics, and not in a good way.
Humans now have to be his conscience not because of any special qualities we have, but by default – post Time War, there’s simply no-one else left to do it.
8 May 2013 at 19:21 #8248**** spoiler ****
I can’t help noticing that Clara’s phoenix necklace has now become a broach which she wears almost like a military insignia. Curious.
8 May 2013 at 19:14 #8245@jimthefish – nothing quite has the element of covertness and surprise than three quarters of a ton of tungsten.
8 May 2013 at 18:57 #8242@pedant – “You are a puss-filled bubo with all the charm of a hungover bison”
… I didn’t know you were present when I took my wedding vows?
8 May 2013 at 18:45 #8239@Shazzbot – mostly a post-2005 thing. Before that, although sometimes he verged on going to far (genocide of the 1st generation of embryo daleks, for instance, in GotD) he generally acted as his own conscience. I can’t think of any exception to that.
If anything, his companions were egged him on to excess! To quote SJS in the same scene after the Doctor questions if he has the right to play God, if that would make him no better than them, she replies, “Destroy the Daleks? You can’t doubt it?… he most evil creatures ever invented, you must destroy them! … If it was a disease or some sort of bacteria you were destroying, you wouldn’t hesitate.”
It’s a marked reversal of the Doc-Companion dynamic, it really is.
7 May 2013 at 23:50 #8184@wolfweed – I suspect fowl play
7 May 2013 at 23:28 #8180@craig – great work with clear and concise list of things which might annoy fellow users.
I do like a nice ToDo list 😀 …
7 May 2013 at 19:54 #8147If I was a @pedant that should actually be Anates ex Machina (but that’s not a good pun).
Finally putting high school Latin to good use – only took 30 years…
Lets wrap this up : Ducks Eggs Machina !
7 May 2013 at 19:28 #8143@juniperfish – ah yes, of course. Yeah, the monk/wraith/whathaveyou is extremely likely to be the Doc (explains the disguised voice), which answers several of my questions (except what that flippin room is)
Which suggests a future doc is manipulating/steering himself in this timeline (I suggested as much back in March on the Guardian blog after “Bells”), and that also the future Doc has a better memory than the current one. Why, though?
7 May 2013 at 19:16 #8140@whofan-matt – well remembered!
The actual line is “Six hundred feet down. Twenty miles laterally puts us at the heart of the ship. I’d say {sniffs} Lancashire”
Heart of the ship, eh? Seems that’s becoming a common turn of phrase these days …
7 May 2013 at 18:58 #8136@bluesqueakpip – “Was the heavy Northern accent during Crimson Horror a shout-out to Nine?”
Eh, I bloody hope not, lass. North Yorkshire and Salford are as different accents as Cockney and Mandarin.
To a connoisseur.
7 May 2013 at 18:50 #8134The bottom 5 lines says:
gossip
secret
share
reveal
divulge
surprise
delight
form
promise
pleaAs far as I can see from Google, no-one has extracted those before – If anyone wants to have a go themselves and try for the upper rows, the 1080p version is here:
… They seem remarkably relevant words, if not actually informative!
7 May 2013 at 18:14 #8132@jimthefish – Ducks out of the Machine ? I’m all for it, still working on a definition though..
7 May 2013 at 18:10 #8131@pedant – “a Chekhov’s Gun with the intent of misdirection”: essentially yes! But I’d add the proviso “… but still central to the plot” (to disambiguate from Red Herrings)
I sort of had that “chosen one” from Buffy in mind too, but I wasn’t really familiar enough with Buffy to be very confident on it – nice one! Thanks!
Any others?
7 May 2013 at 13:24 #8112I think we may have actually defined something new in “Chekhovs Duck”, which I’m defining as “a Chekhovs Gun, but whose eventual purpose defies the audiences initial Duck Walk test – i.e. it eventually turns out to not just be cetral to the plot but also something other than what it initially appears to be”
I had a look at http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChekhovsGun and I can’t see any entry that matches this exact concept, so I’m going to try to add it.
Off the top of my head, an example to cite could be “the Sword of Shannara” which looks like an ordinary sword, turns out to be the titular magic sword, and eventually turns out not to be a physical weapon at all but a magic talisman.
Can you guys think of any other examples to cite?
(See this site isn’t just fun, we’re doing important academic work)
Basically I love the phrase “Chekhovs Duck” so much I’ve decided to make it my life’s work to introduce it to the common lexicon…
7 May 2013 at 10:49 #8105Im increasingly of the feeling that anything to do with the anniversary is misdirection. The fact that the only thing announced is JLCs contract renewal really leads me suspect that too is misdirection, so you cant possibly suspect shes the baddie because apparently she has a future as a long term companion mapped out. Its a ruse.
“im the boss” could be a foreshadowing that shes the big bad end-of-level boss, the one behind kovarian, the monks, the whole 3 series conspiracy, with temporarily erased memories so even a psychic can’t detect her… perky companion is the perfect disguise, after all.
7 May 2013 at 01:49 #8092@ardaraith – i had not seen that, thank you.
i think the most interesting point about it is the location midway through the doctor doesnt recognise, with childrens voices in the background.
Is it his nursery? School room? His family home? How could the wraith possibly know about it to show it to the doctor? Why doesn’t he recognise it? Why show it to him (it seems to have no relevance to the message), doubly so if its a bluff or attempt to psyche him out by the wraith? Who the hell is the wraith anyway?
That looked like a pretty big clue to me…
7 May 2013 at 01:10 #8090@wolfweed – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jMNS2KNvGg … that is a lot cybermen.
But curiously they’re standing around a medieval tent … which I can’t help noticing is very similar to the one seen in the background during filming (supposedly) of the anniversary special …
7 May 2013 at 00:43 #8086O.M.G.
Thats it, I’ve solved it. I know why the Doctor had to flee Gallifrey.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
Who!!!!!!
Hidden in plain sight! It was staring right at us all along …
Thank you citizens, I think my work here is done … 😀
(@rema – thank you for inspiring this crime against comedy. Please, no reprisals)
7 May 2013 at 00:35 #8084Actually, I revise that. Post Revenge of the Cybermen:
In a cornerIn flares. Deperate. Deadly.7 May 2013 at 00:30 #8081@pedant – thank you for the corrected and accurate reprint!
7 May 2013 at 00:28 #8080@rema – only if the baby gets into lots of hilariously dangerous scrapes like Herman does in Who Framed Roger Rabbit …
7 May 2013 at 00:22 #8079@bluesqueakpip – oh, actually that’s how you turn it off. Disaster averted!
Good idea, thanks!
7 May 2013 at 00:16 #8078@bluesqueakpip – Lost … Control … Of ….. iPad … No … Manual ….. Override ….. Possible !
Tell …. My wife … I … Lubed her.
Flocking … Auto … Correct.
This is it …. I’m …… Going dow…..
++++++ TRANSMISSION ENDS +++++++
6 May 2013 at 23:57 #8074Among. “AMONG” !!!!!!!!!
I typed frigging : “naming ceremony” !!!!!!!!!!
Well that was a brilliant idea truly sabotaged.
OK, that’s it, iPad is officially haunted. Or stupid beyond belief. Take your pick.
6 May 2013 at 23:54 #8072@htpbdet – 99.9999% certain that these are not cybus cybermen (and nor were the ones in A Good Man…
I’m assuming they are the last dregs left from after revenge of the cybermen, post Glitter Wars (if they weren’t called that, they damn well should have been), skulking around the galaxy without even two ancient spaceships to rub together.
In a corner. Desperate. Deadly.
6 May 2013 at 23:40 #8067@bluesqueakpip – arguably the duck has already been fired!
I’m not sure Chekhov’s gun applies to plots replete with red herrings though, and even if it’s yet to be fired, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s importance is that his children slept in it. “Other plot devices are available”.
For instance, we’ve established that time lord locks open by evoking feelings (maybe that was a Chekhovs gun?), and the doctor needs the cot to remind him of a feeling he needs to evoke to open a certain lock…
Maybe it’s not the words of his name that are important, but the feelings he had as he was given them, in his cot, at his among ceremony?
6 May 2013 at 23:30 #8064OK, since when does albeit autocorrect to attune? It’s not even a word!
I think i’m auto writing a horror story where the spirit world is trying to communicate with this plane via the medium of auto-correct. Ouiji is so passé!
6 May 2013 at 23:26 #8061@bluesqueakpip – oh noes! Does that mean CBBC is cooking up
KevinDoctor Who – the Annoying Teenager Years?Is there a “horrified” emoticon?
6 May 2013 at 23:21 #8060@pedant – Im still open to the idea that it might actually be a duck.
That’s what you were implying, right? 😉
6 May 2013 at 23:14 #8056@shazzbot – I kind of assumed the episode was originally called “Hide and Seek” and got shortened to make it more snappy like Blink. There are a least 2 people hiding in the house, after all (attune time traveller unwittingly) and 4 people seeking, after all…
There’s a ghost story by A M Burrage about a game of hide and seek set in a creepy house http://www.scaryforkids.com/smee/ – could have been inspiration, perhaps (don’t really see it myself though)?
6 May 2013 at 22:56 #8051@bluesqueakpip – totally agree that theres a family shaped hole thats being heavily foregrounded. I’m not necessarily persuaded that implies that Susan must be the peg to fill it, or even that it should be filled at all. It’s a characteristic that defines the doctor now.
Losing his infallibility is probably necessary, but to lose his loneliness would probably diminish his character too much IMHO. Leads need to be tortured characters these days! If anything, they’re just going to keep piling on the tragedy (goodbye, River … Hello Clara guilt etc)
After all, if the doc was content, why would he go out their for us?
6 May 2013 at 22:24 #8045@bluesqueakpip @pedant @shazzbot @zaphod – I agree a family heirloom is a lovely idea, but so far @bluesqueakpip is right, its just an wishful idea so far.
Here’s a thought – maybe he went back to gallifrey for it (whilst busily erasing all traces of his given name?) simply because his name was written on it, but didn’t have the heart to simply destroy it (maybe he just thought doing so would upset his mum, rather than having sentimental to himself), so took with him.
No (unlikely?) scooping up of cot whilst fleeing gallifrey required…
6 May 2013 at 15:25 #8024@htpbdet – 100% agree with your precis of Season Six! But this season is different – if there has been an equivalent of Rivers bald “imprisoned for murdering the best man in the Universe” statement that semaphores the resolution, so far I’d say we’ve yet to agree we’ve spotted it, even if it is in plain sight.
This time round we’ve no real evidence yet he even makes it to Trenzalore (your spelling is right, my Ipads is … eccentric!) yet (though its heavily implied – which usually means the opposite :D), or that “the fall” is a prophecy* that has any truth to it (A lot of very powerful people worry about judgement day. Doesn’t mean its ever going to happen, even if they try their hardest to pave the way)
Another thing I’m pretty sure about is that although I think elements of classic who (such as Susan) might be incidentally referenced (like the Brig and his daughter, the London underground tin etc) as nice little fan-service callouts to reward the old guard, but I don’t think they will be central to any plot.
The central elements will now always be from the canon, events and characters established since 2005 imho. The mystery of Clara will be explicable (by which I mean not pulled out of a 50yr old hat) in plot points recognisable to someone who has no idea that Who existed before 2005, because they are the fans that matter, not us old farts with 20ft scarfs in the backs of our wardrobes. As the Moff says – its about looking forward, not back.
At first glance, SJS looks like an good refutation of that, but if you look at how that’s written, it’s not actually important that it’s SJS – any previous (even non canon) previous companion would have done. The plot point her character fulfilled was to show that the Doc moves on from companion to companion – no matter how close they were – and doesn’t look back (which Rose realised, slightly to her horror).
Even the Daleks are only referenced time-war onwards (nu who canon), never before that (except as incidental call-outs like “Exxillon”).
But non of that stop us dreaming up our own wish-fulfilment full blown tie-ins to classic who, and much fun it is too, both to cook up and to read! Please please please keep them coming!
I personally would have said Susan (or any classic ref) could still have been a contender if they had been dropping more hints over the last few eps to establish her in his history inside nu-who, so when finally reintroduced, it won’t feel like it came out of nowhere. But with a few eps to go, that’s looking increasingly unlikely, imho – one passing mention of her name in Rings isn’t enough. We’ll see though – still everything to play for!
* I can understand why both Moff and RTD drop in prophecies to generate some dramatic tension (hello Hamlet!), but in the context of a Time Travel show, aren’t they inherently silly? No sure if prophecy is true? Pop forward a few years, read the papers, pop back. Simples!
6 May 2013 at 14:37 #8020Can’t think where Dan Martin gets the idea that we have “intense speculative discussion on everything but what’s happening in the episodes”
Damn right. So. What’s everyone’s favourite recipes? 😀
6 May 2013 at 14:22 #8019And I think this more or less summarises every Moffatt plot ever. I think the plot of “Journey … ” may actually be stolen from this …
6 May 2013 at 14:00 #8015Footage from the anniversary special has been leaked, and it looks epic !!!!!!!!
… um, not sure why Clara turns out to be a magic pony though …
6 May 2013 at 11:24 #7987@chickenelly – liking the wig! It suits you!
6 May 2013 at 10:54 #7980@htpbdet I think we need to define what you mean by “save”. Clearly on a day to day basis, she’s been saving the docs bacon. However, I’m suggesting her duty of care may end when the doc gets to Trezidor.
When you say this is a copy of Rivers story last season, I think there’s crucial differences, if not actual mirroring. Rivers was working against her will to kill the doc, preventing him from getting to Trezidor. Clara could be operating without duress, keeping the doctor alive (and seems curiously well prepped to do the right thing at the right time…) to get him to Trezidor. But she has no concern for his long term well being (possibly).
Does Clara being a bad guy stop her later saving the doc? No. Could have a change of heart, she could be a double or triple agent. I’m not saying other bets are off, if anything probably several are on simultaneously.
I think the one thing we should be expecting is no straightforward motives, but wheels within wheels. Within wheels. Do factions want to stop the doctor getting to Trezidor? Do they want him dead? Or have they just gone to great lengths to make him think that?
The doctor has been shown to have been extremely duplicitous, why should we not think the same of everyone else? Apart from anything else, a few twists and double switchbacks are going to make this resolution much more entertaining.
If all that sounds like a lot of effort , consider for instance the history of Operation Mincemeat (amongst others): thousands of allied lives were deliberately sacrificed, whole bases pointlessly established, armies sent to nowhere, just to protect a greater lie – that we could not read Enigma encoded messages. Protecting that lie was more decisive to the war than winning any individual battle – though living with the ethics of that is horrifying… Sound familiar, perhaps?
Basically I’m questioning assumed certainties. Take Trezidor. Trap for the doctor? Or (like Rassilons promise of immortality) a trap of his own to bring his enemies out into the open? Either way, face must be maintained till the trap closes, even if it seems counter productive. You can’t trust anyone’s words, actions, allegiences or apparent motives. If there are clues at all, then, those aren’t the ones we can have faith in.
5 May 2013 at 22:06 #79265 May 2013 at 21:31 #7921@htpbdet – she doesnt want to save him, she just needs to keep him alive long enough to get him to Trezidor.
Also it’s completely counterintuitive and therefore must be true, in MoffattWorld.
5 May 2013 at 20:04 #7911Hang on hang on, what’s with all the sympathy for neve’s makeup burden, but not Dan’s?
I’m sure they could get round the problem with liberal use of veil and helmet, respectively. Anyway, what to call it…?
Clone to roost
No place like clone
Potato in the middle
Everything you ever wanted to know about strax* (but were afraid to ask)
Like father, like Sontar
Scales of Justice (geddit?)
in cold blood
Lady and the Vamp5 May 2013 at 13:31 #7877OK – based partly on the clip posted by @wolfweed – I call that Clara is Madam Kovarian, deep under cover.
Or maybe she eventually becomes Kovarian? However she’s definitely lording it over what looks suspiciously like alpha-omega soldier style monks…
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