S33 (7) 9 – Cold War

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@thedoctordude – you are correct the doc has stated he can’t cross his personal time line, notably after adrics death to explain why he can’t just keep popping back to fix things that went awry first/second then third time around.

Its a bit ambiguous whether it’s a rule or physically impossible, but mawdryn undead hints that it’s because if you – ahem – touch yourself from a different time period, youll blow the universe up discharging the time potential (or something)

Either way, it suggests multi doctor romps are only possible when the time lords allow it/make it possible and this seems to be consistently the case in all “the N doctors” stories.

Fathers Day is a therefore massive anomaly (although it does comply with the “can’t touch” imperative” since the doc carefully avoids his other selves)

For me, this rules out that Clara is physically the same doctor. But it doesn’t mean she’s not a container such as a ganger for the doctor, or maybe a doc from an alternative dimension (which seems to be OK) laws of time-wise.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@haveyoufedthefish and @thedoctordude

I’d agree with ‘Clara can’t physically be the same doctor’. Which is why I’d reckon ‘Chameleon Arch’ – she’d be human then, and we know that humanised Time Lords are so different the Doctor didn’t even recognise one as a Time Lord. And to be honest, I think it’d be a bit difficult to bring a kid up for sixteen years without ever noticing that their default temperature is 20 degrees below human normal and they’ve got a double heartbeat…

And, in ‘The Next Doctor’, the Doctor seems fairly comfortable with the idea that he might have met himself. Is ‘the rule’ a physical impossibility, or is it ‘once you’ve been told your future it is fixed’? Was it something prevented by the Time Lords because of the potential for disaster? And now they’ve gone, the ‘rule’ no longer exists?

If it’s ‘once you’ve been told your future it is fixed’ then there’s no problems with Clara being the Doctor. If her memory is wiped, she doesn’t remember what the Eleventh did or what she did – and so their ‘future’ isn’t fixed. Equally, if the Doctor doesn’t know he’s meeting his future self, he can’t do anything that’s deliberately aimed at affecting that future self. 

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

Anyway, an idea that occurred to me as I was waking up – RTD managed to provide a loophole for David Tennant’s Ten to return without having to cross timelines with his future self. Going forward with the idea that the Eleventh might have zipped his ‘soul’ into the Sonic he’s about to give River:

Suppose, when his memories are reloaded into his body, he leaves a ‘copy’ in the Library? It’s a computer program – you can download and keep a copy. And we already had that entire story with the Gangers where it’s shown that the copy is the Doctor.

So I wonder if, when virtual River goes downstairs after reading the kids their bedtime story, we’ll discover that Eleven is in the sitting room, wearing Amy’s glasses and reading a book. 🙂

[ardaraith @ardaraith]

@bluesqueakpip The idea of 11 in the sitting room when River comes down, melts my heart!! Some part of me wants a ‘happily ever after’ for River and the Doctor.  I know, I know!

I just saw the new batch of posters for the upcoming eps, and I continue to be struck with their fictional quality.  They feel like ‘stories.’ I recently watched The Mind Robber, and it featured an ‘intelligence’ who enjoyed putting people into ‘stories.’   Regardless of the current plot or story arc, the feeling evoked from each one of these episodes so far is that I’m watching the Doctor and Clara in a ‘story.’  The reviews have even mentioned the nod to various films….

[thommck @thommck]

@ardaraith There definitely seems to be a movie link (or two!) in each episode. I presumed they were just to prove how Doctor Who, the programme, can cross all genres.

I also just saw the posters for the new episodes on the BBC site. The Crimson Terror seems particularly interesting from Clara’s point of view!

Unfortunately, I also saw a rather spoilery pic from on set at the 50th anniversary 🙁

@bluesqueakpip that would be a nice way to close of the River/Doctor arc but will River deserve such a happy ending???

I’m wondering if I should stop looking so deep at it all as I don’t want to spoil the upcoming episodes!

[IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan @pedant]

@HTPBET

did she ever specify she was human though?

Yes. “I fought the Daleks and I am [cut to exterior, in Dalek voice] human”

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan

Thanks – missed that. Of course, if she is chameleon arched or a Zygon copy, she will think she is human…

As to that: more ravings:

Its an interesting thought that, in the Anniversay Special, the Doctor might meet Doctor 10 and Doctor 1 ( say John Hurt) solve the Clara mystery and send Susan off with Doctor 1 to commence their travels.

 But that would require River and the Doctor to have a child and for that child to have a child that is Clara. Not impossible, but perhaps unlikely.

 We know JLC continues next year.

 We know there be Zygons in them there hills.

 So, perhaps the Zygons capture Susan ( who regenerated as a baby and is adopted into the family Smith checked out as she was growing up) and copy her and send her copies out into the  Universe as bait for the Dr? They are working with the GI who have had temporary possession of Clara’s mind and know that she is Susan regenerated.  The Zygons track her down and kill her mother who tries to protect her. They replace her father with a copy. They replace Clara with a Zygon copy and wait. The GI seals off Susan’s real memories and limit her powers of recall.

 That way, there could be three Zygon Claras in different times, each with limited memories.  But they remember the words the Dr’s mother gave the Doctor when he fled Gallifrey with Susan – Run you clever boy and remember.

 Wherever she is held by the Zygons, Susan can be struggling to assert her mental power over over the GI.  She could perhaps send a message telepathically to the TARDIS or Tennant’s Dr? Either could help her.

 Assuming the Eleventh Dr falls at Trenzalore in the finale this year, his mind could be taken by the GI. That would leave both he and Clara unable to falsely answer questions.

 And after that, the TARDIS, assisted by Susan’s telepathic link, could download into the Doctor’s mind his lost memories, seeing him restored with his grand-daughter – and up to fighting the Zygons with Doctor 10.

 When the Zygons and GI are dispatched, then Smith is free to travel with his real grand-daughter, starting a new 50 year cycle…
Yes, its Gin and Tonic o’clock…..

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@bluesqueakpip – it’s an interesting question. I’d say if it’s a law of physics (the mawdryn undead view) then I don’t think it matters if you’re regenerated or chameleon arched, you’re the same bunch of atoms and youre carrying the same time potential relative to your other time frame self.

If its a matter changing a time of flux into a fixed point, then memory and perception could be everything (and I like that, as much of what we know think of time is as attributable ad much to our perception as reality. Specifically there is no construct in physics for the “progress” of time). But that still doesn’t stop you accidentally creating a paradox, so that seems a bit flimsy. But it interestingly would give the doc another reason to erase his memory, if he had to cross his path for some reason…

Probably it’s both. I get the feeling it’s timelord law (like driving the wrong way up the motorway) that’s there for your own and others protection. Technically you can break it, but you’d be so spectacularly stupid to do so you think you’d hardly need a “law” at all*. The doc basically is not foolhardy enough to risk it. Chameleon arched therefore still wouldn’t be enough protection because what if someone un-arched you at a crucial moment (leaving aside the time potential discharge problem for a moment)?

No matter which way you look at it though, the docs behaviour in fathers day makes no sense, relative to everything before or since.

*I wonder if timelords watch an equivalent of a CCTV footage tv show called “time travellers do the stupidest things?”…

[Lula @lula]

I’m currently sitting in Epcot, taking a break from the oppressive Florida heat, reading the latest theories.   Just wanted to point out that in AotD, Oswin is locked in a room at the end of what she tells the Doctor is “intensive care,” which houses the Daleks previously defeated by various incarnations of the Doctor.  Hmmmmmmmm…

There’s no BBC America at Disney World (its lone flaw), therefore no “Hide” for me until Sunday.  This almost ruins my vacation…but not quite!

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

you’re the same bunch of atoms and you’re carrying the same time potential relative to your other time frame self.

@haveyoufedthefish That’s always vaguely annoyed me, and that might be why Steven Moffat seems to have quietly dumped the time potential discharge thing with living beings separated by enough time. (Christmas Carol) but shown that he’s kept it for inanimate matter (Big Bang).

Because, give it long enough, and you’re not the same bunch of atoms. Most of  your liquid-y parts will have been replaced with nice fresh water, a lot of your cells will have replicated and the originals died off … and what happens when a Time Lord regenerates?

But Clara cannot be physically a Time Lord – the Doctor would know. He wouldn’t be calling her ‘ordinary’ if she was wearing a biodamper or biologically non-human. She also calls herself ‘human’. Each ‘Clara’ seems to be very intelligent, but otherwise apparently normal – except for that very powerful mind.

I’d agree that crossing your own time line is the equivalent of finding yourself on the wrong side of the motorway, but I think it’s because of the potential for causing a universe destroying paradox. However, if what you’re creating is the equivalent of a stable time loop (Moffat loves those), you don’t have to worry about any paradoxes. If you do accidentally create a paradox it will result in baby Clara being sent to three different times to unknowingly make the Doctor fascinated with the Impossible Girl and then cause herself to be sent to the three times. Rory and Amy can destroy the Angels’ hotel in Manhattan because – if they hadn’t – Rory would never have been sent back to New York in the 1930’s. 

[HaveYouFedTheFish @haveyoufedthefish]

@bluesqueakpip – hmmmm maybe “same bunch of atoms” isn’t the best phrase since as you say you can shed all of them over 12 month and still be the same person. In the same way, you can shed all your atoms (through regeneration, arch or just the passage of time) but you’d still as an entity carry the same charge potential. A better analogy – you could spend 18 months on Mir orbiting earth and technically by then be a 100% completely different set of atoms – but you’d still have exactly the same kinetic energy potential, relative to the earth.

I quite like the idea myself, its a typical bit of whovian ingenuity; it would be shame to see it dumped. It also has the – ahem – “potential” to explain fixed points in time; a fixed point is simply the lowest stable energy configuration of a point in time. Doesn’t matter what you do, that’s the state the universe wants to return to (e.g. as in Waters of Mars) – highly energetically, if it has to.

… There’s only 2 things you can’t fight – City Hall and energy gradients 😀 .

Do the Kazran’s touch in Christmas Carol? If not, its still an open point if time potential is in play (If so that would be a hugely risky game the Doctor played)

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@haveyoufedthefish – touch? They bloody hug!

However one is an old man, and one a ten year old boy, which is why I’m thinking that Moffat has decided the explosive properties are mainly due to the same atoms existing in the same time point – the two Kazrans would have hardly any molecules or atoms in common, even though they are the same entity. The screwdriver very definitely adjusts time potential to make both sides even – it sparks.

The Angels are clearly feeding off some kind of energy of time-position, because they send people back in time – and then feed off the now available energy. And time-travellers can be spotted if you have a multimeter that can measure Artron energy. We do also see the same person at two different time-points in the room in Angels in Manhattan – but I don’t think they touch; Rory just touches Amy, and I don’t think the detective touches anyone. Except an angel.

[thedoctordude @thedoctordude]

@lula It would kind of make sense then that she had already in some way been linked to the doctor in AotD or else why else would she be placed right in the same place as all the other daleks who fought him?

[Anonymous @]

Hi all – I was on holiday this week, so saw ‘Cold War’ live on TV (as opposed to on iPlayer) which was really frustrating, as I couldn’t pause/review things I missed.  Have now read the 5 pages of theories (and a shout-out / thank-you to the new people too!) and I feel like Robert Redford’s character in ‘Sneakers’ — “I need you … to explain it to me.”  🙂

Am re-watching now, and am reminded of the one thing I *did* pick up originally and which doesn’t seem to have been mentioned here — when the signal stopped just after he escaped his armour, I instantly thought ‘Oooh, Skaldak’s made contact’.  Yet the Doctor’s first thought was, oooh, he’s been abandoned and now he’s reeeeeallllly dangerous.

Did anyone else think that the reason the signal stopped was because it was no longer needed because contact had been made?  Why would the Doctor immediately assume it stopped (and stopped so soon after starting) because Skaldak gave up all hope?  Surely the Doctor would understand the concept of trying and trying and trying?  Is immediately assuming the worst a trait of the ‘classic Doctor’, or is this something new?

FWIW, my interpretation of the time-skip between Clara diving underwater for the sonic and awakening some time after (as a nuWho afficianado but a Classic Who ignorant) was that we’re seeing everything through her eyes.  If she lost consciousness underwater then the story only could continue once she came to.  But I also noted how close this incident came to the Tardis dematerialising, and after thoughtful perusal of the various theories, I wonder if she came to when the Tardis popped up in the Antarctic?

[chickenelly @chickenelly]

…La la la la *fingers in ears and hands over eyes to avoid spoilers currently being talked about on t’other page*

Anyway, just watched Cold War again and I don’t think David Warner’s character will be making a reappearance.  His conversation with Clara seems, on second viewing, just a way of distracting her from what is happening as she is clearly beginning to freak out.

Oh yes, and Hide next week looks like it takes some of its retro look from the ‘Stone Tape’, another for geek fans(i) (Gatiss I think was a fan of that programme too).

footnote (i) Granny chickenelly told me about this as of course I’m too young to remember…

[ardaraith @ardaraith]

@Shazzbot – Regarding Clara’s POV…. that is a really interesting idea.  What about a new crazy theory!  Could all these “storybook” or “action film” episodes actually be Clara’s dream?  I was initially convinced the Doctor was dreaming these “adventures” while being held by the Silence, but I’m losing my resolve.

The story points that stand-out to me:

1. the Doctor’s coldness/distance toward Clara after the initial rush to find her in his Monk garb  (to me, his behavior reads as distrusting and keeping at a distance)

2. the distinctly ‘fictional’ tone to the episodes.

3. the generally inpersonal tone of the eps – at least between the Doctor and Clara

Overall, I am excited beyond belief about the upcoming episodes.  Promotional art and news are being released in such a way as to make the whole thing feel ‘epic’ and much larger than an episodic.

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

@ardaraith – if you could find me some ‘it’s all a dream’ clues that are as blatant as Frances Barber popping her head into the scene every now and then, I’d go with it. Or a duck pond without ducks, to hint that things are vanishing from the universe. Otherwise, you’ll have a really annoyed audience. Audiences hate ‘and then they woke up and it was all a dream’. I think they’d be okay with another ‘ganger’ gag, but again – where are the deeply unsubtle clues? Doctor Who is a family show; with such a major reveal we need clues that can be picked up by six year olds, not just the bonkers theorists. 🙂

I can go with these episodes being the retold version of real events; the reason they’re fictionalised is that they are the ‘based on a true story’ film. Or even that the Doctor’s been trapped in the Land of Fiction since his TARDIS crashed in The Eleventh Hour – we’ve probably had enough ‘fiction’ clues to go there. River’s done the equivalent of ‘we’re all stories’ a few times. 

Or that Moffat’s planning a ‘fourth wall’ finale where the Doctor discovers he’s a fictional character in a family TV show. And that his entire universe is a story. Again, that would fit with the ‘through the looking glass’/breaking glass images in so many of the posters.

And the comment that the 50th Anniversary is a love letter to the fans; if Moffat’s going for the SF idea that fictional universes may really exist, then the Doctor lives because he’s loved by the fans. By the millions of fans, over fifty years. By the fans such as RTD and Julie Gardner and David Tennant and Steven Moffat, who grew up and went into television and produced shows and wrote episodes and played him and just plain refused to let him die. By the grown up fans who – when Doctor Who came back – sat their kids on their knees and introduced them to the show they’d loved.

Ahem. Sorry, I’m in the middle of what @htpbdet calls ‘gin and tonic time’, only with me it’s ‘currently halfway through third glass of wine’.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

“Cute as a button” Lindalee reviews Cold War.

Just a note for new users – we got used to posting these on the Guardian blogs, because if you don’t get the opportunity to watch Doctor Who with kids it can be great to see the show through their eyes.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

I’d just like to congratulate @htpbdet on his demolition of asgill on page four of the Guardian Cold War thread.

My God – that is an epic “nest”.

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

Thanks @phaseshift

The funniest Lindalee review yet! ‘Then he shoots him right in the…. laser.’

‘What is Duran Duran?’

[Lula @lula]

Cannot believe I don’t get to watch “Hide” until tomorrow. Jealous of you all! And thankful for this thread, because it’s kept me up-to-date while at Disney World.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@lula When is Doctor Who broadcast in the States? I’m travelling to Orlando for work next Saturday (I know, it’s a hard life) and don’t really want to miss it, if possible.

[Lula @lula]

@Craig–it airs at 8 pm Eastern time, on BBC America, obviously.  Warning you now–it’s been super hot and humid here all week. It’s nice for a couple of days, then it’s just oppressive!

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@wolfweed – she’s bloody brillianr isn’t she? I used to watch the odd episode with my youngest neice and it is fantastic when they get that astonished “Did I just see that/ Am I allowed to listen to that!” look on their face.

@craig

@lula will correct me if wrong but I think it’s shown 9pm on BBC America. The problem is that local networks/establishments may not carry the channel itself. BBC America being a bit of a niche market.

Good luck with the trip though. If you want me to set up next weeks blog or any other stuff let me know with a PM.

[Lula @lula]

It WAS at 9 pm but BBC Am moved it to 8:00 at the start of the second half of S7, to make room for the new series Orphan Black in the later time slot.

 

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Thanks @lula I’m going to be stuck in the hotel most of the week so the air conditioning will probably be more of a problem than the humidity. It does have a fantastic pool though. Was there 2 years ago for the same event and about the only time I got outside was the evenings. Was still warm enough to have a swim.

@phaseshift I’ll try and set up everything before I go but if I have issues I’ll let you know. Thanks.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Oh, I just realised… Doctor Who… with about 15 minutes of adverts for pharmaceuticals stuck in between. Oh… no…. 🙁

Warning: may cause blindness, hairloss, impotence, death etc. etc.

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@craig

Oh, I just realised… Doctor Who… with about 15 minutes of adverts for pharmaceuticals stuck in between. Oh… no….

You say that like it’s a bad thing. You can learn loads. Look at this recent infomerial about the wonder drug Paracetamoxyfrusebendroneomycin and you will be astonsished. :-))

[Lula @lula]

@Craig–it’s more like Doctor Who plus endless adverts and promotions of BBC America’s line-up. You’ll see at least 5 commercials for Orphan Black and The Nerdist. Sigh…

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@lula I guess I can live with that for a one off, as a sort of ‘getting to know the zeitgeist’ kind of thing. Although I know what you mean, US TV drives me mad, even our commercial stations carry less commercials than yours. I go there quite a lot and it drives me insane. Anyway, off to watch Who, sorry to rub it in.

[Lula @lula]

@Craig–oh, rub it in, I don’t mind. I’d be unhappy were I not currently sitting in Epcot, drinking around World Showcase.

BBC Am doesn’t have many pharmaceutical commercials–mostly promos for their channel. You’ll see Graham Norton’s mug A LOT. And most people/places do have the channel–it’s become very popular over the past few years.  Men love Top Gear and everyone watches Battlestar Galactica reruns and whatever new series David Tennant is starring in on any given week.

[HTPBDET @htpbdet]

@phaseshift – not sure whether to smile or blush re @asgill.

I would have to think I had been unfair to him – but, honestly….non-falsifiable dogma?

and just noticed – he’s back….

 

🙁

[wolfweed @wolfweed]

@PhaseShift – Great. I wonder if Lindalee will have found ‘Hide’ too scary, as it was verging on it with ‘Cold War’

🙂

[BunyonSnipe @bunyonsnipe]

The thing that REALLY annoyed me about showing his face  was they felt the need to make it CGI…

Let alone retconning their entire species into Krull like creatures inside robot suits…

So basically they are a bit like Daleks who can live outside their armour now??

 

[PhaseShift @phaseshift Time Lord]

@bunyonsnipe

Let alone retconning their entire species into Krull like creatures inside robot suits

They’ve always lived in suits; those suits have always contained micro circuitry. See the forthcoming DVD release of “The Ice Warriors” for more information.

If you can present some evidence for this assertion of “retconning” in long post form, you’ll get a discussion. Lazy assertions do not “win” or provoke debate on this forum.

[BunyonSnipe @bunyonsnipe]

@phaseshift

Sorry that was not my point, what I meant is that they are no longer humanoid inside the suit, or was Skaldak an ‘older’ pre-humanoid Martian?

[Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip]

A little bit of background to this episode: the Guardian on how very, very close things came to nuclear war in 1983. These war games would be the ‘sabre rattling’ being discussed in the submarine, at the start of the episode.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

A fairly straightforward but entirely watchable effort by Mark Gatiss.

The characters were fairly stock – the fundamentally decent Captain, his nasty lieutenant the Party loyalty monitor, the slightly subversive Professor. Quite why a Russian sub on an operational footing should be excavating Martians or mammoths was never explained but it doesn’t really matter.

Nor why the Tardis chose to materialise there instead of Vegas (other than that line from The Doctor’s Wife, ‘I always took you where you needed to go.’)

The sub was pretty spacious inside (but then all movie subs are. Actors gotta have room to act). Not like the fairly cosy dimensions of e.g. Russian sub S56 which I got to photograph in 2017. But that wasn’t nuclear, maybe nuclear subs are bigger.
Only false note was “It’s in the walls” – huh?

Not many women look good in uniform (IMO) but Clara does. Also, curiously, do female Chinese army security guards.

The Tardis translation circuit persists after the Tardis has strategically relocated itself. Interesting. Loved the way Clara took a few seconds to realise she was speaking ‘Russian’ (actually, she was speaking English but being heard as Russian, and vice versa).

I do like David Warner as the Professor. Nice bit of left-wing (um, left-wing? This is the USSR? Yeah, still left-wing) subversion of the military authorities. I was pleased, though surprised, the Prof survived. (Gatiss you softy).

(What was I doing in a Russian sub? It’s a war memorial. In Vladivostok. Admission 200 rubles (about $5) if you want to take photos.)

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