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@IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan

Thanks – missed that. Of course, if she is chameleon arched or a Zygon copy, she will think she is human…

As to that: more ravings:

Its an interesting thought that, in the Anniversay Special, the Doctor might meet Doctor 10 and Doctor 1 ( say John Hurt) solve the Clara mystery and send Susan off with Doctor 1 to commence their travels.

 But that would require River and the Doctor to have a child and for that child to have a child that is Clara. Not impossible, but perhaps unlikely.

 We know JLC continues next year.

 We know there be Zygons in them there hills.

 So, perhaps the Zygons capture Susan ( who regenerated as a baby and is adopted into the family Smith checked out as she was growing up) and copy her and send her copies out into the  Universe as bait for the Dr? They are working with the GI who have had temporary possession of Clara’s mind and know that she is Susan regenerated.  The Zygons track her down and kill her mother who tries to protect her. They replace her father with a copy. They replace Clara with a Zygon copy and wait. The GI seals off Susan’s real memories and limit her powers of recall.

 That way, there could be three Zygon Claras in different times, each with limited memories.  But they remember the words the Dr’s mother gave the Doctor when he fled Gallifrey with Susan – Run you clever boy and remember.

 Wherever she is held by the Zygons, Susan can be struggling to assert her mental power over over the GI.  She could perhaps send a message telepathically to the TARDIS or Tennant’s Dr? Either could help her.

 Assuming the Eleventh Dr falls at Trenzalore in the finale this year, his mind could be taken by the GI. That would leave both he and Clara unable to falsely answer questions.

 And after that, the TARDIS, assisted by Susan’s telepathic link, could download into the Doctor’s mind his lost memories, seeing him restored with his grand-daughter – and up to fighting the Zygons with Doctor 10.

 When the Zygons and GI are dispatched, then Smith is free to travel with his real grand-daughter, starting a new 50 year cycle…
Yes, its Gin and Tonic o’clock…..

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I was told by a friend in the BBC today that, quite separately to the Anniversay Special, a Radio Play is being made featuring all of the living Classic Who actors as their incarnations.

I will continue to probe for further information….

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@jimthefish.  Are you sure about that? 🙂

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@bluesqueakpip
Impossible Bonkers theory 79,3267 – entitled Trying to make it all fit together
I think whoever came up with the notion that “Run you clever boy and remember” was an Instruction “Run” for the commencement of a system download that would restore the Doctor’s memories and make him remember was inspired. Even if it doesn’t turn out to be right, it’s a brilliant idea.
I agree that in Asylum Clara saved her essence by holding onto her memories – did she ever specify she was human though? Or did the Doctor just assume that?
As I have said, one thing which perplexes me about Asylum is that Clara is not Dalekised like any other human/humanoid. She does not retain her human form and have an eye-stalk in her forehead – she is chained up inside a Dalek casing – which rather more suggests she is a Dalek that has been sent to the Asylum because she is insane. Doesn’t it?
Assuming it’s not bad writing – who is she and why is she there and why does she say she is from the Alaska? Is the Alaska background a cover to her real identity?
But before you answer that question, your answer has to encompass why Clara, in, as you say, physical form, also appears in Victorian England and then in modern London?
How does Clara get to be in three places at once – and in each place not know who the Doctor is and in two places know “run you clever boy and remember” but in the third not know the phrase?
Is she a clone? Is she someone fragmented through time?
But more than that – how did she get the programme that needs to be Run to restore the Doctor’s memories?
From Snowmen, it seems the Great Intelligence will be involved again.  For my part, I would not be surprised to see the Great Intelligence defeat Smith’s Dr and drain his mind at the end of the final episode of this run – a cliff-hanger for the Anniversary Special.  It’s at this point that I wondered whether, rather than Dalekising the Doctor when he was in the Asylum, the Daleks used the opportunity to infect him with something which would break down his memories (specifically his memory of the Great Intelligence because that seems to be the ONLY memory he has lost) and make him easier for the GI to dominate – making me think a Dalek /GI alliance had been formed with a view to domination of all time and space through the TARDIS.
It seems to me that the most likely person to have archived the Doctor’s memories (of things that have and have not yet happened) is the TARDIS. Of course, it could be Smith’s Doctor, but, honestly, I think that would be awful. Just another rehash of the solutions in the last two seasons.
So, if the TARDIS has done the archiving – how does the Run programme get to Clara in three timestreams?
It was because of that problem that I thought the best idea would be that the Idris soul had been ejected by the GI from the TARDIS – after it took possession of the Doctor’s mind – and the GI had gone off with the TARDIS, leaving the mindless Doctor and a bereft Clara.
So, if IDRIS is ejected from the TARDIS by the GI, and thrown into the time and space continuum, she could take refuge in Susan, taking her Run programme with her.
You are right – and I had forgotten Mels’ line about regenerating as a toddler – but of course Susan could regenerate as a baby – that makes complete sense. So, if she did regenerate as a baby, at the point of regeneration let’s say her chameleon arch protection ended with the regeneration process. So the Idris soul can locate her – and does and possesses her as a baby and protects her from detection until she is old enough to be properly chameleon arched. As a baby, the regenerated Susan gets placed into an adoptive home (perhaps by Doctor 10 and Rose without knowing what is happening – or because Doctor Ten realises that Susan has suddenly been revealed and he goes to make sure no one else finds her, realises he can’t raise her as a baby and so puts her in care)
Smith’s Doctor does not know who she is – and we have been assuming that that is because he has forgotten something (well, I have) but maybe he actually doesn’t know? (This works better if Doctor 10 and Rose are not aware of whom the baby is, but would also work in an alternative timeline scenario)
But, the older Susan/Clara gets, the more difficult it is for the fobwatch to contain her and Idris and so to relieve the pressure, Idris sends versions of Susan/Clara into other timestreams – a protective measure but also as a way of ensuring it is more likely that the Doctor will encounter her. So that, at the appropriate point, Clara can run the programme.
River or someone having a song as the key to running of the programme could work with that.
I am sure it will never work out that way – but it seems to make sense (until you all point out where I have gone wrong and why!)
The thing I can’t work out is why/if the TARDIS has an issue with Clara…
One thing though which makes me sure that Clara is the key to the Dr rising from the dead or equivalent is the reference to her as Soufflé Girl – because soufflés never rise twice. So she will help him rise once.
Having helped him rise, Clara then removes her fobwatch (Mother’s ring) and becomes Susan (with Idris’ soul still inside). Tennant’s Doctor feels her and comes for her and finds Smith too. Together they hunt down the GI in the TARDIS and they excise the GI from the real TARDIS by colliding the two TARDISes or effecting a Time Monster Time Ram – either way, caught by surprise and Idris supported by the mental energy of two Doctors and Susan absorbs the GI or expels it from the TARDIS.
Okay you guys – time to demolish this scenario starts now! J
@jimthefish  I actually really hope it is a Metebelis Three crystal BUT only if we see Smith go and get it because, as we know, Pertwee returned the only one he had…
Right….Gin and tonic time…

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@scaryb – yes, I do think the GI will be back for the finale – I have thought that all along. But your post makes me realise that the download theory and the GI can work together in a simple way – in Web of Fear the GI wanted to take the Doctor’s mind and said it would leave him empty, like a child – so, if they succeed in that, then his memories can be downloaded and he is restored.

But the question then is – what and who is Clara? And how does that scenario fit in with the question that must never be answered?

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@haveyoufedthefish – actually, I think the most obvious answer is that it is Hartnell’s TARDIS Clara tries to open, Smith having gone back to check on her past.

@jimthefish – interesting pictures – does that look like a Metebelis Three crystal? Has Smith gone to Metebelis Three in the future when its abandoned and destroyed? A Metebelis reference would certainly tie in with the Doctor facing up to his fear – this time his past?

And you are right about various people gaining access unexpectedly to the TARDIS over the years – but not sure, apart from Ben and Polly getting access just before Hartnell renewed, if anyone has entered the Doctor’s locked TARDIS.

Delgado fiddling in the TARDIS – do you mean Claws of Axos where he Doctor tricked the Master into doing repairs to his ( the Doctor’s) TARDIS? If so, Pertwee let him in. I can’t recall another occasion but then I am aged…

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@thommck – Well, the TARDIS did not keep Adelaide out in Waters of Mars… I am not sure the TARDIS has such skills, or rather, uses them.

And the girl entering the TARDIS would not have changed history of itself, would it? – as the TARDIS would have to leave to do that surely? And one thing the TARDIS does have control over is dematerialisation.

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@jimthefish – I know you are still pining for Amy and although I personally find that incomprehensible it does explain your reticence and wariness about Clara. All fine.

Did she pass out because the TARDIS dematerialised? She didn’t when the Doctor left her (i.e. the TARDIS was gone from her presence) in Rings or in Bells.

But you and @phileasf are right – that sequence where she passes out and has the coat placed around her was odd. I thought she had been hit by someone in the melee – but perhaps not.

And, we could still be seeing these stories out of their linear order…

Surely the fact that she could not get into the TARDIS in Rings might just be about her not having a key? Or, if, say, the GI (or someone) is in possession of the TARDIS it is trying to keep her out – but is not yet strong enough to do it when the Doctor is around? I don’t know – but there is some link or disconnect between the TARDIS and Clara.

@jimthefish – what was the chameleon arc you saw in the trailer for Hide? And I don’t think there is any chance that Moffat would let Tennant’s Dr be thought of as the “good” Doctor even in an anniversary special. But their TARDISes might well collide…

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I forgot to add that I have wondered for some time if the Daleks are in league with the Great Intelligence in this arc.

But that was becasue the symbols which identified the “bad” wi-fi source looked to me like they might have been Dalek symbols.

It now occurs to me that there may be scattered, hidden references to Daleks throughout these Clara stories – Skaldak; the symbols in Bells, the way the great crowd in Rings looked like the Dalek Assembly in Asylum – not sure if there is one in Snowmen (except the rather loose connection that the era is the same as Evil of the Daleks and the GI says: The Governess is our most perfect replication of humanity. Which ties in with what the Daleks were trying to achieve in Evil of the Daleks). Are there others?

If that is right, then the Dalekisation theory zips to number one position…

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For the aged amongst us (i.e. me!) can we sum up the possible theories at the moment – please?

Is this the list:

1. The Dr has been made into a Dalek and we are seeing this series of episodes in flashback and somehow Clara will provide the mechanism to save him? Possibly by Running a computer programme called “You clever Boy”.

2. There is a dark Dr/doppleganger of some kind – although I confess I do not understand how Clara is seen to work in that scenario.

3. Egyptian theme of rebirth – Clara being a Phoenix like symbol.

4. Clara as Susan – somehow.

5. Clara as IDRIS – possibly because she has been forced out of the TARDIS by the Great Intelligence. As it turns out, this theory would also work with the “You Clever Boy” programme being one that Idris had archived for future use, because she can archive the future as well as the past.

6. 5, but with the variation that IDRIS has taken possession of Susan’s body – so we will end up with a rebooted Dr, Clara as Susan and the TARDIS in action as normal.

7. Some connection with CAL and Silence in the Library.

Have I missed any out?

At the moment, I think I favour 6. But that’s probably just because this is Anniversary year and to my mind that would be fab.

But 1 has the virtue of being true to Moffat’s form – in each of Smith’s seasons, the opening episode has been a key to the finale. So, if he is true to form, and he usually is, this one will be too. It also means that all the “but she’s impossible” stuff would be misdirection. Another Moffat trope. Clara in Asylum could easily have been a regenerated Susan taken by the Daleks and the reason she has been able to hold out for so long is that she is a Time Lord and, as Evil of the Daleks showed, it was difficult (then impossible) for the Daleks to dalekise the Doctor. If there is stuff we have not seen in Asylum yet what we might see is the TARDIS being summoned by both the combined minds of Susan and the Doctor and Clara activating the TARDIS’ programme “You Clever Boy” to reboot the Doctor. Somehow. Then the stories we have seen this season would simply be, past and future memories of the Doctor as part of the reboot process.

I guess the problems with that are: (a) what, then, happened to Rory and Amy (because Clara should be with the Dr when he loses them); and (b) the Dalekisation process we see during Asylum involves everyone who is Dakekised growing an eye-stalk in their forehead – everyone except Clara, who does not but who is in a full Dalek machine. I have no answers to either – it might have been the case that Susan, regenerated into Clara form, had been taken by the Daleks after the Doctor left her with David Campbell and found a way to convert her, or tried to convert her and failed and so imprisoned her – but that would not explain why she had the memories of the crewmember/junior entertainment officer Starship Alaska.

Okay – over to you guys. What have I missed out or overlooked?

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@juniperfish.  Well, I agree that the song and the apparent connection with Skaldak are there for a reason – but I think the reason may be to distract. From what Clara does when she sings the song – which is deactivate the missiles.

I can’t see any sign that the Doctor is using the Sonic Screwdriver to boost any communication signal – and in any event there is none to boost. The Sub has lost its communication capacity ( that is established early on ) and Skaldak has gone with his. The Doctor is holding the Sonic Screwdriver because he is ready to use it if he thinks the missiles are going to be launched.

I love theories as much as the next person. But I think we are concentrating on the wrong thing – precisely as Moffat and Gatiss intended.

If Clara disarmed the sub, what does that mean she is? How did she do it? And in the context of that question her song has an obvious meaning.

I don’t see the Warner resemblance to Hartnell. As someone above said, in many ways he is more reminiscent, both in looks and manner of playing, as Troughton. All three of the Classic Doctors referred to people as “my dear” at various times – it’s not a Hartnell “thing”.
 

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@juniperfish

Sorry – but your reading does not accord with what we see.

Skaldak has gone, with his suit and his communicator. The Doctor is not talking to him but speaking rhetorically, out loud – vocalising his thoughts.

There is no way – that we see- for Skaldak to hear Clara sing.

We have no idea what happens on the Martian ship.

Your reading might be right – but there is no evidence for it in the programme.

Can I ask – if David Warner had not played the Professor, but some other actor less well known, would you still place such importance on what he does and what he might mean?

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@juniperfish.     But that is not what happens. She sings after he has gone to the Martian ship. Her singing could not be heard by Skaldak. 

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In Cold War, one of the Russinas taken by Skaldak is called Onegin…

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@juniperfish.     But did she? We may think that, but nothing Skaldak says or does actually suggests it. He asks the Doctor who will blink first and Clara steps in. Before he decides anything, the Martian ship arrives and he is beamed up Scotty. Maybe we, especially me, were/was too quick to conclude that Clara had any effect on Skaldak at all?

On a different topic – I have been musing over the “these episodes reflect the earlier Doctors” theory and realised that I had completely overlooked that Bells of St John echoes Hartnell – the Shard is central to it and the forces of evil lurk there, exactly as in War Machines. While there are references to the First Dr and Susan in Rings, you cannot really say that it is like a Hartnell story – but it is certainly like an Eccleston one ( or two ). Cold War is clearly a riff on Troughton and next week looks like a homage to Pertwee, but it may be more a homage to Tennant – we will see.

And back to 123….maybe Bells was Hartnell, Rings was Ecclestone ( the other first Dr), Cold War was Troughton, next week is Tennant ???

More doubles, just a different kind?

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@whohar – Bravo on Guardian site.

@craig – you have done a marvellous thing creating this site.  Please keep out the forces of despair and vitriol.

@ IAmNotAFishIAmAFreeMan – I found time to watch it again. I was wrong to think Clara was singing a Martian song – and I think it was because the moment was so portentous, I just mistook the reason for that.

But thank you – you encouraged me to go back and look again. And, correct me if I am wrong, but is the question about knowing that song the only time that Clara answers a question about herself? I think it might be.

On second careful viewing, when you analyse it, there is no basis for saying that love won in the end in this story. Skaldak was beamed to his people’s ship before he made a decision about whether to launch the missiles – on the Martian ship they decided to go and not send the pulse which would have launched the nuclear missile and started war – possibly because it did not suit their plans – given the time line, we know the Ice Warriors post 1983 will actively want to conquer Earth and make it their own (Seeds of Death). So that makes sense.

The real question at the end is how did the missiles become disabled? Did the Martians do it? Or did Clara by singing the song?  And, if the latter, what does it mean? Is she, somehow, the embodiment of Idris (the TARDIS)? And if, so, who is inside the TARDIS?

I know I have been plumping for Clara as Susan – and she might be – but it might be that Idris has been forced out of the TARDIS  by the GI and taken rest in Susan…when you examine that final section of Cold War ( at @37 mins) these things are clear: the missiles are primed, the Dr is dithering unsure what to do, should be destroy the submarine and them or risk the Martians sending pulse before he can? Then Clara sings and the missiles become disabled. It seems clear, and I don’t know why I did not see this earlier, that Clara must have disarmed them. And the Hungry Wolf allusion suggests Bad Wolf and the TARDIS vortex…cue to Idris being embodied in Clara/Susan.

And if Susan is hidden with a fob watch, Idris’s occupation of her might be enough to cause splintering through time as the chameleon cloaking breaks down?

Yes, it’s gin and tonic time again…

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@phaseshift

Yes, I think there are two things we are sure about regarding Clara. The first is she does not remember her past unless something triggers a memory. The second is that she cannot answer questions about her past or who she is or what she wants – because she does not know.

All of which makes me think she is Susan under a fob watch and the fob watch is slowly breaking down. Perhaps it’s the fob watch splintering that creates the two other Claras?

@whisht

I agree that the question is most likely to be “Who am I” or “What am I?”. But I think that is the question the 12th Doctor asks after his regeneration, looking at the devastation around him. And Clara/Susan will be there to help him find out…

I think Moffat’s big hope is to regenerate Smith at the end of the Anniversary Special and to keep it a compete surprise…and if he pulls it off, all kudos to him.

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@whisht.    Whishtful thinking I think. 🙂 can someone explain to me the fuss about the returning Dr eating the blue fruit. Clara didn’t like it – so what? Does that mean the Doctor has to like it? Was there something I missed – always
possible…

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@bluesqueakpip

i like that notion of Clara not bring able to remember. Clever thought!

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@ardaraith

I like that. Clara the Red Herring.

Given that Gatiss’ Adventures in Space and Time is happening and will remind all youngsters who Susan was, it seems more likely than not to me that Clara is wrapped up in Susan – either she is her or her child or her mother – somehow.

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However…

That doll struck me as a Rose representation. And Roses do go with Clara.

She seems always to wear red – so there might be something to be said for the Red Riding Hood theme.

Lets assume for the moment that the Big Bad Wolf for this season is the Great Intelligence. It has to consume both grandmother and Clara and then be killed by the Hunter so that they can both be rescued. You could see how Tennant, Rose and Clara could be consumed by the Great Intelligence, and Smith saves the day, possibly losing his life to save himself.

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@ardaraith. –  there was never any indication in the TV series that Susan had a Gallifreyan name. Whatever happens in the books should not be regarded as part of the history of the Television series.

The Clara created by Rose when she was Big Bad Wolf does not make sense to me for a number of reasons: if Rose had the sort of power necessary, she would have changed the Universe so she got to stay with her Doctor; what would be the purpose of Clara if Rose had created her? She doesn’t save him every time – she might help and sometimes be critical in the escape/solution, but she does not save him. So why would Rose create her?

Plus, and please correct me if I am wrong, but hasn’t the whole Universe been rebooted since Rose’s turn as the Wolf? How and why would anything Rose did secretly survive that when it was not a part of Amy’s memories, the Doctor’s memories or the TARDIS’ experience?

Finally, I just don’t see Moffat turning to an RTD solution to explain his creation. I really don’t.

 

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Well @ardaraith, you might be right. I thought it was the Martian song but I don’t know the other one – but, on the other hand, why would 2013 Clara know a 1981 song? Or is it a classic everyone under 30 would know?

I don’t know about Warner as anything other than a guest character, although I did wonder if he might reappear, a la Professor Travers, in a further Ice Warrior adventure. That would be cool. I did love that Ice Warrior ship…

I can’t see any sensible way Warner’s Professor could end up as Hartnell’s Doctor – or any version of the Doctor – I really can’t. And, in truth, I will be appalled if that turns out to be the case.

And with the greatest respect to those who think otherwise, I don’t see that there will be an evil doppelgänger Doctor either – or rather, if there is, it will be entirely new and not deriving from anything that has happened.

I am, however, attracted to the notion that each of the episodes since Clara joined the TARDIS crew reflect earlier Doctors – clearly Rings reflected Hartnell and Cold War reflected Troughton and next week seems to reflect Pertwee – that guest character almost seems to be dressed as Sarah Jane Smith. The following week is Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS which, no doubt, will evoke Invasion of Time ( I predict a swimming pool and a library !) and therefore Tom Baker and the following week already has the feel of Visitation ( so, Davison ) – but then what? How do you reflect the other 5 Doctors in one story – or maybe that is why it is a Cyberman story, because all of the other Doctors fought ( or in CE’s case, referenced – see Dalek) the Cybermen?

The handholding and the hugging makes me think of the Doctor and Susan – and I am not sure why. But it does.

Have I mentioned I love Clara? Amy who?

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Well, I have not enjoyed an episode of Doctor Who that much since The Stolen Earth.

Cracking story, excellent guest cast, fabulous suspense and effects, many fangasm moments but still a clean and clear story for today.

Clara was mesmerising. Clearly, she has no memory of what Clara has been doing previously – either she is losing her memories and regaining other ones (Susan’s, Idris’ or whoever she is)  or she is a time bomb waiting to go off and realising bit by bit that the time to blow is almost here. Her singing of the Martian song was creepy – and thrilling. She or some part of her knew about the Ice Warriors – how? Did she read the warrior’s mind?

Interesting that the Doctor’s memory of the Ice Warriors was intact – in fact, he knew way more about them than seemed feasible given he only encountered them in The Ice Warriors for the first time. Contrast that with his failure to remember the Great Intelligence and something seems distinctly odd.

Interesting also that the Doctor specifically said to Clara that this was “not a test”. Making last week a test then?

Interesting too that so much was made of the TARDIS translator ( even though it was at the South Pole!) this week, when last week it seemed not to be a consideration.

Loved the Martian – and the out-of-suit trick was gold. I wished the voices were more reminiscent of the earlier ones, because I always thought they were inherently scary. Can’t someone other that Nicholas Briggs do monster voices for the BBC?

As soon as the TARDIS disappeared, I knew it was the H.A.D.S. getting a return mention – Krotons lives on! Great!

Everything about this had the indicia of an audition – could Mark Gatiss be the next show runner? On the strength of this – yes. And I never thought I would say that.

Best Matt Smith episode to date!

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It’s the eve of broadcast of Cold War.

I have high hopes for this.

I am late to this Faces discussion – so will think about what you have all said and pen a few thoughts next week.

But, I guess there are some things I can say now.

In truth, the first real “Doctor” as we came to know him did not arrive until after Ian and Barbara left. Post The Chase Hartnell is very different to pre The Chase Hartnell. Indeed, in many ways, Ian is the template for the Doctor that we know – intelligent, questioning, brave, smart, witty – he’s just not idiosyncratic or temperamental  as that was early Hartnell’s job.

If you discover Doctor Who as a youngster, your view of the programme will always be shaped by the first Doctor you liked. If you discover Doctor Who any other way ( books, comics, wives, husbands, children ) your experience will be different.

Critically, how much attention you paid as a child will affect everything. If you were a casual viewer, then you are lucky, most things will please you. But if you were a devoted follower, then your investment means you can be seared with disappointment.

I am lucky ( or old enough, take your pick ) to have seen Ian and Barbara force their way into the TARDIS that first time and I have been along for the ride, even during the darkest Colin Baker days, for every episode.

Although I liked very much the Hartnell years, it was not until Troughton arrived and took the programme by the throat and shook life and humour and heart into every corner of it that I became locked to it. I still grieve for his Doctor and, for me, no one has come close to him, apart from Tennant.

Pertwee was the usurper for me, and it was Roger Delgado and Nicholas Courtney who kept me watching until Three Doctors – somehow, after that Pertwee seemed absolutely fine and I think his final year is his best work, largely because Elisabeth Sladen brought the best out of him.

I adored Tom Baker from his very first moments – fresh, vibrant, zany, brilliant, unexpected – and he was blessed with marvellous stories – only Sontaran Experiment and Android Invasion are duds in his first two years, every Leela story is a gem except Underworld and the last two episodes of Invasion of Time, the Mary Tamm Romana season is unqualified fun until Power of Kroll but then it goes downhill, apart from City of Death until the E-Space trilogy and the wonderful Keeper of Traken.

I never cared for Logopolis and thought Tom Baker got an incredibly rough deal for a final story, but not as bad a deal as Davison got for his first. Compare Castrovalva to Power of the Daleks, Spearhead from Space or Robot and you will understand.

Davison was crippled by bad companions ( not Nyssa ), an atrocious Master and bad stories, but when the stars aligned he was a great Doctor, the only one to confine his eccentricity to his clothing – a brave choice actually. He holds his own in Five Doctors and that is quite something. Caves of Androzani is one of the best Doctor Who stories of all time.

Colin Baker was a disaster for me, and everything about his tenure horrifies me, even Two Doctors, because there Troughton was not playing his Doctor really. Terror of the Vervoids is the only CB story I can bear to watch, because I think by then the actor knew the writing was on the wall and he decided to play the role his way. I don’t blame Baker – I blame the idiots who ran the programme.

McCoy was a breath of fresh air, but he too was hampered with the production team’s views – the Doctor as omniscient force of terror starts here. The stories were too misconceived or poorly executed. There were exceptions – Curse of Fenric the main one. But Ace was good with McCoy and Remembrance of the Daleks as whizz bang as anything done til then.

The movie was atrocious, although McGann himself was very interesting.

Ecclestone is the other unsung hero in the history of Doctor Who. Like Troughton after that first regeneration, everything rested on his shoulders. And from the very get-go, he was masterful. He found a new and compelling take and worked beautifully with Rose and then Jack. His rousing speech to the Daleks set the template for all those to come, especially the Smith ones.

No need to say anything about Tennant and Smith…:-)

Just this: if Troughton had not been so effective as the Doctor, we would not all be anticipating the return of the Ice Warriors in Cold War. He fought them and the way he fought them made them seem powerful,terrifying and addictive. That’s why they came back. And why I, at least, have high hopes for this next Smith episode.

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Have you seen this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7JWY_oYlps

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@bluesqueakpip

Romana had no difficulty pronouncing her name – it was the Doctor who had the trouble. But, yes, I do think it would be funny if the Doctor had trouble pronouncing his own name – but I wonder if he even remembers it?

I have always not understood how the Doctor’s real name could be such a problem – unless pronouncing it opens the Time Lock or triggers a regeneration or does something momentous like that?

I have always imagined that the 11th Doctor’s fall, when every living creature must answer truthfully, will involve him giving his name and thereby facing up to how he is and what he has done – the Silence wanted to stop him getting to that point? Why? Unless it affected them? If he admits who he is and what he has done and there is some sort of paradoxical reboot, so that his past remains an alternative time-line in which creatures like the Silence are locked, but he can go forth, free from the burdens of knowledge and consequence to continue his travels – well, I can see then both why he would not want to utter his real name and why villains would want to stop him.

It would be funny if his real name was What.

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Hmmm…

I am going to go out on a limb and say that there will be no mention of anything Egyptology related in Cold War…

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@bluesqueakpip

Yes, but as I understand it from within the BBC, the high turnover of producers on Doctor Who is because SM won’t listen to them and they continually exceed budget at his insistence. The money BBC Worldwide rakes in from sales and merchandise does not affect the programme budget – that has to be bargained for like any other programme. And its expected to keep to its budget. Which it doesn’t.

I don’t blame SM alone – I think the BBC is insane not to provide an appropriate budget for a flagship programme -but it is, of course, always a question of what that budget should be, Should the money be spent on effects or gadgetry or on plots, characters and sets/locations. Its a balance.  A hard one.

Still,  RTD managed it…

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Welcome @cariad

When people ask me how to get in to Doctor Who, I always suggest that they watch the very first episode, then The Three Doctors, then Dalek Invasion of Earth,  Tomb of the Cybermen, Terror of the Autons,  Robots of Death, Talons of Weng-Chiang,  Caves of Androzani and Remembrance of the Daleks.

That gives you an overview of the classic series. Once you have seen them, you can then turn to things like Five Doctors, Pirate Planet, City of Death, Kinda, Snakedance, Seeds of Death, The Axtecs, The Romans, The Meddling Monk, Earthshock , Curse of Peladon, Planet of the Spiders and War Games.

Tragically, all you can do as an adult is look back at the early years with an open mind – trying to put yourself in the place of a eight year old at the time the story was made. The pace is slower, some are black and white, the focus is on character and story rather than visuals and action – so it takes patience and persistence. But if you can watch the series highlights suggested (and these are not my idea of the best of Doctor Who, but they are my idea of a way to tip-toe through all of the concepts, notions and “Wow!” things which made Doctor Who what it was, is or can be) then you get a feel for the notion that is the Doctor and you can fill in other gaps as you like.

Another thing to do is to listen to the audio releases of Dalek Masterplan, Tenth Planet, Power of the Daleks, Ice Warriors and Web of Fear – you get a real sense of Hartnell and Troughton listening to these.

I do not recommend any Doctor Who virgin to start with any Colin Baker episode or much of McCoy. You need to watch Pertwee through Baker through Davison to get yourself fully prepared for that.

And if you don’t want to do that, then just settle for the reboot – and when something is referenced you don’t understand, just ask one of us here.

Happy adventuring.

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@scaryb

Yes, Smith’s comments about the paintings has bugged me – obviously we have seen the Clara painting in BSJ – but where did it come from? Again I wonder if we are seeing the Dr/Clara interactions out of order.

@whohar

Smith has signed up to three movies – but, as I understand it, they are American movies, the first of which is directed by Ryan Gosling. Not Dr Who movies.

The problems with the Smith seasons has been simple – the budget was blown early by Moffat and his team and so they had to borrow from following seasons budgets. Which is why the seasons were broken up. As I understand it, this has been a long running issue at the BBC and is part of the reason Caroline Skinner has jumped ship. The BBC wants a run of thirteen episodes next year and, it seems, Clara is signed for that.

I gather there are things we have not been told about yet – one story going the rounds is that on Nov 23, the BBC will replay, probably on BBC2, Tenth Planet, Power of the Daleks, Frontier in Space, Pyramids of Mars, Caves of Androzani, Vengeance on Varos, Curse of Fenric, the Movie, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances, The Stolen Earth/Journey’s End and Pandorica Opens/Big Bang. (And yes, you read that list correctly…)

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I have had that Gin & Tonic and now feel stupid again…

Perhaps the TARDIS did lock Clara out – because she knows she is Susan and expects her to have her own key. Susan dropped her key after the TARDIS dematerialised in Dalek Invasion of Earth….

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@JimThe Fish

I thought the Anniversary Special was 90 mins long?

And a reboot that wipes the past from the Doctor in his timeline does not mean it never existed. Alternative universes and all that. Moffat’s first season made that clear.

Don’t forget that David Bradley is playing William Hartnell  – not the Doctor…

@juniperfish

It is not necessary for the Time Lock to be broken for the Master to return. If events have already happened to the Doctor, but we haven’t seen them, well the Master can appear anytime.

I feel – I am not sure why I feel so strongly about this, but I do – that somehow Clara will be Susan or the TARDIS. I was just trying to think of a way it could be Susan…and that was what I came up with. Of course, we know that the Anniversary Special has Zygons and the Brigadier’s Daughter and possibly Elizabeth 1 but none of those characters could unpuzzle Clara.

I guess time will tell.

I am actually excited about the return of the Ice Warriors. I hope it is good – bit worried about Gatiss saying in Radio Times that there is “something else” about the Warriors….what? A female commander? They suddenly have the power to turn invisible? They take off their helmets? They don’t speak with sibilancy? They read Beano?

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@juniperfish

Sorry, I know I prattle on…

I did not mean the Master was after his daughter in a bad way – just that he wanted to find her, perhaps because he was playing a double game with his allies.

And @Shazzbot, I was going with the notion that the ring has to be broken for the chameleon protection to fade.

It’s just a way to try to make sense of what we know to date. It almost certainly cannot have any bearing on what Moffat proposes.

But….I do think that Smith will regenerate in the Anniversary Special or soon after and that Moffat proposes that the next show runner will have an entirely new plate – when and if  12th Doctor meets the Daleks, he/she will  not know who they are…

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Wild theory #87,324

As the Time War starts, the Dr hides his daughter (hidden as a human, fob watch style) on Earth. He returns to get the rest of his family but his mother sends him packing, saying “Run you clever boy, and remember” and packs him off with baby Susan to go find a TARDIS. And reunite Susan with his mother. He goes. But, while he and Susan are visiting Jim The Fish on Akhaten, he and his TARDIS are captured during events in the Time War and he is separated from Susan. The Doctor escapes and commences a lifelong journey to find Susan. River ( who is not related to Susan; she is the Dr’s second wife) finds Susan and she deposits Susan with the humanised mother ( who does not know who she really is) knowing the trauma of separation of child and mother.  River unmasks Susan’s mother to explain things to her and Susan’s mother uses mind control over Susan’s step-father to stop him from remembering the truth about Susan and builds into the mind control an immunity from pain/distress over the death of his wife (her). River leaves after Susan’s mother resumes her human guise. The Master, who is the father of Susan and the son-in-law of the Doctor, together with the GI or Omega Or Sutekh or Someone or all of them comes after Susan, (who has not been disguised as a human because they only have one chameleon device and she is young and radiates less power) Susan’s mother is unmasked by the Master and dies to protect Susan, giving her the ring ( which she steals from the Master) which does for Susan what the fob watch does.  Susan runs and hides – the prying eyes looking for Time Lords cannot find her. The Master leaves, blaming Earth for his failure and returns to the Time War. But when the Time War ends, there is a feedback of temporal energy causing the McGann Dr to regenerate and unexpectedly affects Susan –  parts of Susan’s hidden life are separated from her, dissipated in time and space.  When the Time Lords are temporarily released as Tennant’s life ends, some of the power of the Matrix awakens lost thoughts in the hidden human Susan ( now Clara ) but she does not understand them. She is a bit lost. Then she encounters the Doctor and BSJ begins….the story progresses and when the 11th Doctor falls at Trenzelore (? Spelling), Clara’s ring is destroyed and she realises who she is. Tennant’s Dr, happily  travelling with Rose, suddenly feels Susan’s presence and comes to find her. But the original Doctor, the Hurt/Hartnell incarnation, who has never stopped searching for her, arrives, now having felt her location in the Universe – the TARDIS takes him where he is needed. They all have a brief reconciliation, deal with what must be dealt with to overcome the Trenzelore issues and then the Hurt/Hartnell Doctor gives up his future lives to save The Eleventh Doctor, so that the errors and mistakes of the Eleventh Doctor’s past become an alternative timeline/are wiped away – leaving the 11th Doctor to regenerate with a clean slate or to go forward with a clean slate, travelling with his grand-daughter, Clara/Susan.  The Tennant Dr is affected by what happens knowing that his future and his past have changed forever and he returns to the TARDIS with Rose with heavier hearts than she has seen him bear the burden of. He looks at her and decides that, given there is nothing to lose, he may as well give in to her greatest wish and feigning joy he takes her for a holiday – and they end up at the start of Army of Ghosts…

Okay – I need a gin and tonic….

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@ JimTheFish

Yes, I think that’s right.

Still, I fully expect the final ep of 7.2 to end on a cliff-hanger which will lead directly to the Anniversary Special.

Currently, my favourite thoughts are:

(A).     River:   Doctor! Look…

             Dr:        (Astonished) …Susan?

Clara/Clara’s mother smiles at the Dr.

(B).      River:   Doctor! Look…

Doctor looks up. John Hurt ( as Hartnell’s Dr ) : Now then. What’s all this?

(C).      River:   You have to answer

              Doctor:  No….

              Clara:   You have no choice.

              Daleks:  Doctor Who? Who? Who?

             Doctor:  No… You don’t understand…

             John Hurt as First Dr:  but I do. Shall I tell them?

Yes…..okay, I have had too much cool aid today….

Mind you, I am still plumping for The Twelfth Doctor as the Anniversary title…

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Hmmm…..

This link was sent to me from inside the BBC, so I thought it was genuine….but it’s not on the BBC site so I guess it is not….

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So – we won’t really know til Nov 23…

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http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=G8g5BrLm7uQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DG8g5BrLm7uQ

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@haveyoufedthefish

I may be entirely wrong about this but it seemed to me that when the invasion began in Snowmen, the creature invading was sentient aggressive snow. We see it arrive as snow and it enslaves Simeon as snow. The Dr defeats it as a snow creature and then says something about it having adapted to non-corporeal form. And Vastra and Jenny make sarcastic comments about a disembodied alien intelligence trying to conquer the Earth with snowmen  (Abominable Snowmen) and the London Underground ( Web of Fear). So it seemed to me that the Dr had essentially created the GI as we knew it from those stories and the idea was that those Troughton stories would happen next. Then in BSJ we see the GI back and amassing power – not sure how it was paying for everything mind you.

So – the consequence of Snowmen was the GI as we came to know it when Troughton fought it.

Feel free to correct me – I may have missed something.

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@juniperfish

I always thought Room 101 simply contained his mistakes, errors, misjudgments, the things for which he was responsible…

But perhaps a dark doppleganger might be essentially the same thing?

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@juniperfish

The trouble is that the Doctor has never really regarded himself as a God – he may act like one occassionally but has always eschewed the title and not thought much of those who appointed themselves as gods – Omega, for instance. Face of Evil is about that in a straight forward way.

A post on the Guardian site has made me wonder (again) why I am so stupid. I have been so busy wondering why Hartnell and Susan did not defeat the vampire God on their visit that I completely overlooked the obvious explanation – that it was not a problem when they visited, but only arrived after they left.

So it might have happened because they were there. We do not know anything about that trip of Susan and Hartnell (or some earlier incarnation of Hartnell) but what we do know is that Time Lords are capable of giving their life force energy to others to help them heal – that was established in Planet of the Spiders and made quite clear when the Doctor healed River in Angels Take Manhattan. Suppose, then, that the Doctor healed Susan (or the other way around) while on the planet – in fact, Susan healing the Doctor works better – it establishes a template for a young girl to give energy to a Grandfather. Suppose that was what happened and then over the centuries the ritual has been created – simply because the Doctor and Susan were there and they were watched and thought to be Gods…

On the other hand, there have been rumours of Pyramids of Mars mummies in the final story, and that would mean Sutekh (an alien life force who thought it was a God). And there have been some oblique references to Fires – a phoenix can’t arise except from ash which requires fire – Pokers and Tongs are fireplace implements (And the Bells of St John in the nursery rhyme reference them) and Rings are often forged in fire…

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@lula

Thanks. The Whispermen do look to me like some bad side of Smith’s Dr – they bear an uncanny similarity to his face behind their latex coverings.

Graves are everywhere this season – Amy’s, the graveyard at the end of Snowmen and then Clara’s mother’s grave in Rings. Graves everywhere…

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@wolfweed   @jimthefish

I see…

Well, everything, for some time now, has been about the Doctor’s name, so that would not be so out of place, especially given all the Doctor WHO? statements…

The Funeral of River Song would not worry me greatly – because The Wedding of River Song did not turn out to turn in any critical way on a wedding.

The Grave of River Song…well, that makes it seem like River Song might be Clara’s mother as we have already seen her grave…

Interesting…

I was rather hoping the episode was titled Revenge of the Great Intelligence….

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@jimthefish

What is the rumoured title for the final episode of 7.2?

Can you post on spoiler section?

Sorry to be dumb…

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@haveyoufedthefish  @juniperfish

I am no expert on those final episodes of Tennant because they were so ghastly (apart from Tennant and Wilf) but if the TimeLords are locked away, wouldn’t the Matrix be locked away with them?

And I am not sure how the Matrix could be the GI. Snowmen showed, rather neatly and effectively in my humble view, that the Doctor created the GI as part of the defeat of the intelligent Snow creature.

Still…as House fed on TimeLord souls, I expect if House came across the released Matrix (assuming it was not locked in with the Time Lords led by Timothy Dalton’s ranting) then House would be the equivalent of Mr Creoste…and consuming a wafer thin TimeLord soul (perhaps Susan’s) would be the end for him…

I think the mention of “granddaughter” must be specific and important, as too will be the moment when the TARDIS was barred to Clara. Just not sure how, apart from what I have said above.

But…given the Doctor has been there before, why didn’t the Doctor intervene then? That too seems a likely avenue for further explanation. And speculation.

And overnight another thought struck me – based a little on how Moffat likes to misguide you by showing you something which is not what it seems until he shows you the rest – the moment in Time for Angels when the Dr is retracing his footsteps and speaks with the blinded Amy; the shooting of the Dr at the Lake. What if we have just seen another in Rings?

At the time I first watched Rings, I was struck, after the Doctor’s big speech, when he was submitting himself to the sun vampire creature, that it looked like it could have been the start of the regeneration process. I was a little shocked. And then I did not know what happened – it did not seem that the creature took the Dr’s essence but I did not really understand why. Clara’s intervention stopped me thinking about it. But..

Have we seen the start of Smith’s regeneration but just don’t know it yet?

Its probably not this at all – but was interested to read about what Moffat would have done had Tennant stayed an extra year and it made me wonder…

Also – has anyone any bright ideas how “Pokers and Tongs” fits in with BSJ – if it does. Pokers and Tongs being ascribed to the Bells of St John’s in the famous nursery rhyme…

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@craig – may thanks for your industry and also for, in my case, your hacking skills! 🙂

Very pleased that the Brigadier’s daughter is now confirmed for the Anniversary Special.

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@Bluepipsqueak

I think I am more wondering whether the Doctor was checking up on Clara’s past or making Clara happen…it looks like he is checking up, investigating, but maybe he is not…maybe he is up to something else altogether…???

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@jimthefish – very kind, thanks. I actually agree – entirely – with your assessment of 11 drawing from 7, 1 and 5 – I think that is a very fair and insightful way to look at 11. But there is an extra element – the physical comedy stuff which goes well beyond anything Mccoy attempted.

Interesting, your point about Clara not asking to go back to meet or see her mother. Isn’t that the sort of thing you would ask when you felt more secure about the whole time travel thing? It took Rose some time for instance. I’m not sure that Clara not asking to go back and see her mother discounts her feelings about her family. But, equally, I feel certain that Clara’s happy family background is not real. Where is her “father”? No mention of him at all by Clara – why? And, like you, I am distrustful of her “memories” – partly because she keeps saying “run you clever boy and remember”. She is exhorting him to remember something – a kind of reverse Dr/Amy remembering storyline – but, at the same time, she seems to have her own memory issues – not the least because each incaration of her being knows nothing about the others (which discounts the Scaroth notion) or the Dr – at least before she first meets him.

Actually, when I was thinking about this last night, I realised that I had been quite struck by the appearance of the father at the graveside when Clara is so upset over death of her mother. And wondered if he was, actually, a spoonhead…

Of course, and forgive me, I was ecstatic when Amy left and no doubt I have given Clara more leeway because I so disliked Karen Gillan’s companion. Martha was boring but Amy…for me, only Rory and sometimes River saved those episodes. I loved Rose (still do) and for me Donna was a perfect companion, especially for Tennant. JLC looks like she could be just as good for Smith – curiously, I liked her better in Asylum and Snowmen than in the last two – but perhaps that is to be expected, because of the story arc? The two stand alone characters had complete arcs and are part of a larger arc – this Clara seems to be the larger arc and until its told, we wont be able to properly judge her.

Still, I find her subtle, skilful, enormously attractive as a character and warm – with just that touch that something is not quite right. To me, she fascinates.

But I totally get how anyone who loved Amy – and many did – would be resistant to Clara – as I was to Liz Shaw, to Leela (but only for a little bit) and to Mary Tamm’s Romana and then Lalla Ward’s Romana. When you love a companion, you generally grieve and the newcomer takes time to grow on you. I never really forgave Martha for replacing Rose…and Liz Shaw never had a chance after Jamie and Zoe…

🙂

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@Shazzbot

Its the first initial of the surname of certain actors who have protrayed the Doctor over the years…

When the companion is normal, the Doctor gets to shine.

@whohar

Thanks. 🙂

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