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1 May 2013 at 13:55 #74171 May 2013 at 13:53 #7416
@whohar Where does the 300 years Hartnell come from? I don’t recall that from any televised adventure.
1 May 2013 at 13:02 #7407Must say, I have always assumed this
You’re a man with a long and dangerous past. But your future is infinitely more terrifying. The Silence believe it must be averted.
did not necessarily mean that the future he referred to was the result of the Doctor’s choice.
So, either a future where the doctor was Daleksied or a future where the Doctor was taken over by the GI and gave them access to time and space – either would be terrifying.
1 May 2013 at 12:38 #7404@ardaraith The thing is, ardaraith, we know next to nothing about Susan. She is the Doctor’s grand-daughter and she is telepathic – but that’s about it.
We don’t know why she is with the Doctor in Unearthly Child, what happened to her parents or what happened to her after the Doctor left her with the human David Campbell at the end of Dalek Invasion of Earth. In particular, we don’t know why the Doctor and she never ever talked about her parents and his wife/her grandmother. Part of me always thought the Doctor kidnapped Ian and Barbara because he knew Susan needed parents and he was not good enough.
So – she presents a pretty unique writing opportunity. She comes from a fuzzy background yet there are clear expectations of what she could/should be. So it could be fun to turn those expectations upside down – make Susan into something more complete.
And a Doctor travelling with a 200 year old grand-daughter…there’s a good idea…
Yes, I’m going with Clara as a Pond and the Doctor’s grand-daughter or great-granddaughter, who is also a temporary repository for his memories and pass-word protected by a Song.
@juniperfish I just can’t see how River could be the grand-mother of Susan. If she was, Hartnell knew River; which meant Tennant would know her too and he didn’t. Although, against myself is that the Doctor did not know that Mel was River until she regenerated. Hmmm…..
1 May 2013 at 12:18 #7396@bluesqueakpip You are going to drive JimTheFish into a frenzy, but as to this:
I hope she has a fine career post-Who; much as I like Karen Gillan, JLC is currently knocking Amy out of the park.
I entirely agree.
And more than that – Amy was impossible and a mystery in her first season just as Clara is here. And although they are very different, JLC has achieved what KG never did (in my view anyway) – she has made people care about her without understanding her. I think she is an excellent actress.
But Doctor material? – not for me. Judi Dench? Yes. Helen Mirren? Yes. Maxine Peake? Yes Emily Watson? Yes Hannah Waddingham? Yes Nicola Walker? Yes! Jenna Russell? Yes!
1 May 2013 at 12:09 #7393@bluesqueakpip
I cannot believe that even the Doctor would drag his baby granddaughter on a ‘see the universe or die trying (possibly both)’ tour unless he had to.
He ran. And whatever he was running from, he had to grab Susan as well.Agreed. And that speech in Rings seems to confirm it.
@juniperfish I thought he was talking to himself about himself in Hide. I didn’t think he was wishing harm on Emma. I don’t see any sign of Smith’s doctor being darker now than he was in first series. Sorry!
1 May 2013 at 12:03 #7389@phileasf I think the woman in the shop will be either River or Rose – and it is, as you say, most likely a paradox that will be resolved in the finale by whoever going to the shop finding Clara and giving her the number.
Is the TARDIS external phone the same number as the internal phone? I have always thought so – which is why the woman could also be Kate Lethbridge-Stewart. (And I’d quite like that too)
@Bluesquakpip I don’t believe that JLC will be the new Doctor. She is going to be Susan or another relation – but, Susan is my preference.
Whoever the next Doctor is, the “mad man in a box” character will not be the underpinning notion. It will be a different take. Maybe a charismatic amoral Dandy philospopher with a penchant for old ways and a loathing of gadgets… 🙂
@blenkinsopthebrave Agreed. He is much more protective of Clara than Amy. He seems in grandfather mode a lot…
1 May 2013 at 11:40 #7381@JimThe Fish Thanks. No idea what I even said now…or how to delete and repost. I think the Time Lords have all my transdimensional theory knowledge..
If you think its worth it, repost away.
1 May 2013 at 11:38 #7380@scaryb No need to duck!
Its possible. Just seemed that the GI was created in Snowmen by the Doctor from the intergalactic snow creature – it then went off and had the two Troughton adventures (and to be fair Web of Fear could have resulted in the GI having access to some of the Doctor’s essence) and then Bells could have seen them have access to more -and, indeed, perhaps the GI is wiping his memories internally – but I think I don’t ultimately buy it.
But the GI gained power in Bells and it is entirely possible that it has been lurking inside the TARDIS ever since (Kizlet’s people after all were meant to locate it), perhaps even slowly trying to take it over – perhaps there is a fight going on internally in the TARDIS which accounts for why it sometimes treats Clara differently and sometimes does not go where the Doctor wants it to go.
Moffat is obviously playing a long game – Doctor’s Wife could have been part of the set-up for this finale.
As to his name – I still think that the trick will be that he was called the Doctor for a bad reason – like he doctored records or results or machines (a souped up TARDIS for instance) or something – so that the reason he left Gallifrey was because he had to not because he wanted to explore. Its going to be some personal crisis that he has been running away from all his life. I think.
I also think that the changes to the TARDIS interior are just to set up a gag for Tennant in the Anniversary Special:
“You’ve been redecorating I see. I don’t like it.”
🙂
1 May 2013 at 11:21 #7369@bobbingbird you could have stopped that last sentence after “out”….
Truly, I think the saddest thing about the BBC is that they allowed Troughton’s era to be almost entirely erased. Honestly, when you were small and watching things like Power of the Daleks, Moonbase, Faceless Ones, Evil of the Daleks, Ice Warriors, Abominable Snowmen, Enemy of the World, Web of Fear, Wheel in Space and Fury from the Deep…well, your life was so enriched and changed. Mine, anyway.
Troughton sold me on acting and the theatre/television as a career.
The shock of seeing him, so shortly after War Games, playing the utterly vile Duke of Norfolk in Six Wives of Henry VII profundly excited me.
He hooked me on life.
1 May 2013 at 11:15 #7367@scaryb I am not hung up about who claims what really – but I confess to have been obsessing about what the GI are up to here – and it did seem to me that either the TARDIS or the Doctor would be the prize it most sought. And given that Snowmen showed the Doctor “creating” the GI, there would be a certain symmetry to the GI taking the TARDIS from him – or taking him and the TARDIS. (What an ending – a possessed Dr cackling away and dematerialising in the TARDIS…)
I wondered whether if the GI took possession of him, the only way for him to defeat the GI would be to regenerate, (perhaps with a push from Doctors 1 and 10 a la K’anpo Rimpoche) and, if he did, whether he would end up without memories, which is where Clara comes in – the TARDIS having archived the Doctor’s memories in her somehow.
But I do not subscribe to the darker Doctor is coming theory – I don’t understand why people say Smith is getting darker. He seems quite the opposite to me – he is getting lighter, more consistent, more sympathetic to others and, in relation to Clara, utterly confused.
Anyway – I am only really sort-of-sure of one thing: at the moment, neither the Doctor nor Clara know what she is for.
1 May 2013 at 10:20 #73571 May 2013 at 10:19 #7356@fulcanelli The cover……..Clara and two Doctors looking for something? Who is the faithful retainer/bitch? Rose ? River is flowing by majestically…what else?
🙂
1 May 2013 at 10:13 #7353@bobbingbird Ha! Are you suggesting I am not the voice of reason when he/she pushes me too far?? 🙂
Mind you, if asgill ever starts telling me about what was good or bad about either Troughton or Hartnell, I may well turn to an axe…
Seriously though……..its funny you say the “long September of Troughton”, because I often think of it that way – as an evocation of perpetual childhood. At the time, they were amazing days watching Doctor Who, at least for me, and they tie in with all my happiest childhood memories.
1 May 2013 at 09:57 #7350@bobbingbird I am wounded!
I would never wield an axe (Alexander Sheep though) and I would never wear orange (asgill though).
I see you in a different light now…
30 April 2013 at 16:49 #7285@timeloop In the words of the Third Doctor – practically everything! Sorry!
Has River lost the ability to regenerate? Or do you mean post being stored in Forest of the Dead?
Trouble is – we have seen her become River in Kingston form and we have seen her die/be saved by upload in Kingston form. So she has to be rescued from her fate in Forest (possible) in order to regenerate or having regenerated from the Kingston form she would have to regenerate back into it (A possibility, I guess, following Romana’s antics in Destiny of the Daleks).
Still….as you say, she could regenerate…somehow…
30 April 2013 at 16:11 #7283@timeloop Oh, and if I give you the clue “H” is for Hartnell and “T” is for Troughton, I’m sure you will work it out… 🙂
30 April 2013 at 16:10 #7282@timeloop Yes, you are right. Forgive me – I try to forget about Let’s Kill Hitler…
But…the Doctor’s first meeting with River as an adult, has that happened yet? Its a paradox. Isn’t it?
If Hartnell met River, then Tennant would remember her, but he doesn’t. River tells Tennant she has seen several faces – so she knows about him. So those meetings must be in Tennant’s future.
But when does the Doctor first meet River in his timeline?
The fact that River can regenerate makes this harder – she could have a completely different form (and name) when the Doctor first meets her – its possible.
30 April 2013 at 15:50 #7278@bluesqueakpip Yes. But, presumably, her bracelet would not take her now into Gallifrey’s past? But it might mean that she could have gone there before the Time Lock happened?
End of Time says this:
Inside the Time War, when the whole War was time-locked – like, sealed inside a bubble. It’s not a bubble but think of a bubble. Nothing can get in or get out of the time-lock. Don’t you see? Nothing can get in or get out, except something that was already there.
That’s really all we know @timeloop – plus this:
You weren’t there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the time-lock’s broken, then everything’s coming through, not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres, the War turning to hell. And that’s what you opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending!
But I don’t see that prior to the Time War anything was affected – in the sense that River could have gone to Gallifrey before the Time lock was created.
And, in a way, why not?
We have yet to see River’s first encounter with the Doctor. We have seen the Doctor’s first encounter with her, Silence in the Library, but not hers with him. Its possible that happened when the Doctor was Hartnell. We know River has seen more than two incarnations. If, somehow, River used the bracelet to go to Gallifrey, say. Or if she was caught up in something the Time Lords were sorting out – or if the Doctor had been on a mission and met her and fell in love and brought her back. There are any number of ways she could be Susan’s actual grand-mother.
30 April 2013 at 14:48 #7269And we might or might not find out more about the book – but River could easily have written it.
River and the Doctor have a lot to do before Silence in the Library – and part of that might include her participating in the Time War.
30 April 2013 at 14:45 #7266@timeloop Welcome. I think the thing is someone gives Clara the telephone number – that can’t be the TARDIS (unless her soul has been displaced and is finding a way back).
No doubt the TARDIS could direct a call made, but the woman in the shop gives Clara the number which is needed before the call can be made or redirected.
River pops up at different times in the Doctor’s life – when they meet she usually does not know exactly what is about to happen, but there is no reason she couldn’t.
But if River knows that for the Doctor to survive, say, he needs to meet Clara, she could just pop back in time to give her his number in order to try to make sure the Doctor does meet her. Rather like the way she turned up at the Rory/Amy wedding to leave the TARDIS diary which would trigger Amy’s memory and restore the Doctor.
30 April 2013 at 13:28 #7261Yes, its interesting isn’t?
Especially when you look at the poster for the final episode…
The TARDIS is a window across everything…
30 April 2013 at 12:44 #7257@fivefaces I very much like that notion of all the Doctor’s female relatives coming to his rescue…that would be great.
I don’t think River has to be connected to the Time War to be the woman in the shop. She just needs to know how the Clara storyline resolves and for the moment in the shop to have happened at a point where the resolution is in Clara’s future but River’s past. And the more I think on it, the more I think it probably is River in the shop.
Of course, the other great woman in the Doctor’s life is the TARDIS – so there is your Royal Flush!
I just posted this on t’other place and throw it in here for what it is worth:
As to the remote control…well, perhaps I am particularly dense, but it did seem to me that the central mystery of Journey was: “Where did that device come from and what’s it for?” That was the puzzle which had to be solved.
How it was solved involved timey-wimey stuff, but nothing that we really have not seen before in Big Bang or Wedding of River Song or Angels Take Manhattan.
It bothered me that the Doctor was found outside the TARDIS while Clara was inside it. My nephew (12) pointed out, though, that consistent withDoctor’s Wife, the TARDIS had taken him where he needed to be: outside, so that he could get the remote. And, the TARDIS had made sure Clara stayed inside, so that the Doctor would come looking for her and find the tear. It all made perfect sense to him.
And I think he is right.30 April 2013 at 11:59 #7255In other news, I am sure you all know this, but I was reminded by my nephew that
Clara Oswin Oswald
is an anagram for
A Window Across All
30 April 2013 at 11:42 #725330 April 2013 at 11:29 #7251@jimthefish I was so annoyed by Alexander the Sheep that I decided to rewatch War Games 10 to calm myself – and because I was worried that I had forgotten something and inadvertently misled you. Such a wonderful, heart-breaking episode.
But no line of TARDIS copies.
The Doctor lets Jamie and Zoe convince him to try to flee and they run for the TARDIS which has been parked by the Time lords next to a bank of SIDRATs (this is, no doubt, what you were remembering?). Jamie and Zoe are placed into a SIDRAT to be taken home.
The woman in the shop is obviously an important clue – and thanks @fivefaces for reminding me. You are right – Clara could have seen anything in the book. But if you are right, then it is likely to be either River or Susan or Jenny (either of them – have we discussed whether Vastra’s Jenny could be the Doctor’s cloned daughter from the Tennant story?) in the shop – Rose being in a different Universe. I suppose it could also be Kate or Martha. Sadly, though, it can’t be Donna. Except time can be rewritten…
@blenkinsopthebrave – yes, it is always great when Doctor Who makes you feel like a happy child again…these last three have done that for me.
30 April 2013 at 10:39 #7245@janetteb She says she was taught by him in Pandorica Opens but there is also this exchange:
AMY:How come you can fly the TARDIS?RIVER:Oh, I had lessons from the very best.DOCTOR:(smug)Well, yeah.RIVER:It’s a shame you were busy that day.
from Time and the Angels.
Might be nothing.of course.
On a different topic, there is also this from Pandorica:
People fall out of the world sometimes, but they always leave traces. Little things we can’t quite account for. Faces in photographs, luggage, half eaten meals… rings… Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely. And if something can be remembered, it can come back.
Much has been made of the Doctor erasing himself from history so that people forget him. But, of course, that means there will be traces, a footstep in the sand, something that will let others remember him .
I wonder if that is what the Great Intelligence is up to? Filling in the dots? Finding the Doctor, working out what he is and was?
30 April 2013 at 09:57 #7240This was always my favourite Dalek send-up (apart from Destiny of course…)
29 April 2013 at 16:09 #7167@jimthefish No Tardises on Gallifrey in War Games, just SIDRATs. The SIDRAT’s had no chameleon circuits.
🙂
29 April 2013 at 10:56 #7139You are very kind. 🙂
That quote made me think – more than ever – that the finale is going to be about why the Doctor left Gallifrey with Susan.
Journey has made me worry slightly that River is going to be Susan’s grandmother and that because the Doctor marries her in his future, somehow that defines or redefines his past.
The way Smith couches it “and the life of his companion” seems to indicate its not about Clara. River then?
I don’t think there are any hints in previous episodes about why he is called the Doctor. There is discussion about whether he is a Doctor of medicine but not why he is called the Doctor. Just as there is no discussion of why the Master is called the Master.
We have known since at least Edge of Destruction that Susan wanted to return to Gallifrey but the Doctor would not/could not return her. I always thought she wanted to go back to her parents or to find out what happened to them – but that the Doctor knew and wanted to spare her that.
As to what the “little bits and pieces” are – who knows? But I do wonder if that conversation about who taught River to fly the TARDIS might be one of them and River’s suggestion to the Dalek to check its records about who she is.
28 April 2013 at 11:27 #7024
!!!Spoiler speculation about series conclusion!!!Just been mulling overnight about the things Moffat has recently said.
First – he said that no one had guessed the secret. Well, we know he lies, so perhaps someone has…
Second – he said that filming for the final episode had only been completed recently – making me think that Tennant might be in that final scene. Perhaps Hurt too.
And he has said that whatever the big secret is, it is game-changing, will be something we have never known before.
So, I am starting to seriously wonder if it is going to turn out that the Doctor really is responsible for creation of the Daleks.
And actually, when you think about it, it’s a fantastic idea.
The Doctor (very young) is on Gallifrey, bored and irritated by Time Lord ways. So he goes on a joyride in a TARDIS – lands on Skaro at a point very early in the Thal/Kaled wars, maybe they have not started. Perhaps he sides with the Kaleds and believes them when they say the Thals started it – because he is young and inexperienced. He is naive and so does not establish where he is or who he is helping or, really, why. He perhaps tries to bignote himself, make himself popular. He helps them – gives them a secret which does one thing (maybe even the secret to time travel?) but also unlocks nuclear power (or something similar) and they use what he has given to devastate the planet and the cycle leading inexorably to the creation of Davros’ Daleks begins.
But before that happens, the Doctor realises his error and tries to fix things but is laughed at and ignored as the Kaleds rush for victory. Defeated, he runs away, dematerialises and calls for help ( sends a Time Cube), gets rescued, lies about not interfering and is reprimanded by the Time Lords ( perhaps aged by a 100 years or some other timey wimey punishment) and returned to the Academy and kept in after class (or the Time Lord equivalent).
He is watched, but he seems to settle down.
Eventually, he runs away, stealing the Type 40 and, with Susan, travels the Universe, determined to explore and right wrongs.
When he eventually arrives on Skaro, with Susan, Ian and Barbara, he does not recognise it – and neither does the TARDIS because when he was there earlier he used a different machine. He has that first adventure. For there to be any semblance of continuity, you have to take the position that Genesis occurs before Dead Planet ( at least as far as I can see) and accept that the Dalek Emperor/ Davros schism happens before Dead Planet too. The first three Doctors encounter Dalek Emperor Daleks – it is not til the Fourth that Davros and his Daleks are encountered. And thereafter, the Doctors only meet Davros Daleks mostly.
In any event, the Doctor does not know he caused the creation of the Daleks. But you can imagine how he might fall on Trenzalore if he is asked questions which he must answer and he or others find out what he has done…
There is a lovely symmetry too with Genesis. The Time Lords send the Doctor to, effectively, destroy the Daleks. It has always bothered me that they did that. But, it is more understandable if the Doctor was actually responsible for them existing to start with. They just want to fix the mistake he made – but in their typical “lily white hands” way, don’t tell him everything.
It also means that the references over recent years to why the Daleks will not kill him, why he is worse than them, why, even, they turn to him for help in Asylum, take on a different light. River’s challenge to the Dalek in Big Bang also takes on a different light.
The Doctor has always been inextricably linked with the Daleks – how remarkable if he has been hiding this secret, a secret which he could easily have learnt for the first time during the Time War.
Trick or trap, Clara does not know who she is. JLC has said that Clara has travelled with the Doctor more than we have seen – which, if true, seems to make her the TARDIS’ soul inside either Susan or Jenny or some other construct but cloaked as a human. Or Mary Poppins.
We seem to have three mysteries in this arc: what is the Doctor’s secret? Who or what is Clara? And why is the Doctor forgetting things? (A fourth might be – what is the Great Intelligence up to?)
He might be forgetting things because someone is trying to help him, so that when he gets to Trenzalore he can’t reveal a secret he has forgotten.
Clara seems to have remarkable powers for an ordinary girl, and Journey establishes the range of the TARDIS’ creative powers. She is certain to make him remember – in much the same way Mary Poppins makes Mr Banks remember the joy in life that he had lost.
Moffat has repeatedly described the Doctor as ” a mad man with a box”. Perhaps he means it. The Doctor is slowly going mad because of the burden of what he knows about his hand in the creation of the Daleks?
I can see too an alternate time line scenario, where the Doctor does become a Dalek post Asylum – feeding into the notion that he has come full circle, become the thing he caused to exist. He made the Daleks happen, only right he should join their ranks.
So, that can happen. But Journey shows us, clearly, that altering a time line can have retrospective effect ( the photograph shows that). So the Doctor can both become a Dalek and deal with the consequences of his initial actions properly ( with a little help from himself perhaps ) so that he never does.
Whatever happens, I feel optimistic – with the advent of Clara, the series is on a roll and looks like it is just going to keep on rolling…
27 April 2013 at 23:16 #697527 April 2013 at 23:01 #6968And thanks for all the good wishes – its been a tough couple of days and the next week will be interesting…but at least I got released in time!
Cheers to all.
27 April 2013 at 22:58 #6966@Galactacus
I must say I thought it was certain that we would find out why he originally left Gallifrey and I was not expecting it to be pretty. It might be tied into the Time War, but maybe not.
The speech in Rings about taking a precious bundle and running , protecting it – well, that seemed to be about Susan. So his past has loomed large.
I suspect he does something reckless – perhaps an act which creates the Daleks – which would be a nice twist to the Genesis reboot. Imagine if some meddling of the Doctor caused the Daleks to evolve but he ran away from Gallifrey before he knew what his meddling had meant?
Moffat says he will change the way we think of the Doctor. He is either lying or telling the truth. He usually lies – but he might not be this time. If he establishes the Doctor as a coward or a traitor or the real creator of the Daleks, then he will have changed the character forever.
Secrets protect us – Smith was talking about himself.
27 April 2013 at 18:18 #6882Yes, well….Outstanding. Cracking idea and, actually, fantastic on many levels. Exciting, surprising and chock full of clues…there are holes, but they scarcely matter. It’s thrilling from start to finish
Clara – extraordinary. Utterly mesmerising. (Her dress reminded me of Victoria’s in Tomb of the Cybermen). The interactions now between Clara and the Doctor, the hand-holding and the hugs – they are starting to look like family, even if they don’t know it. Not lovers, family.
Liked the three guest stars, particularly the one who thought he was an Android.
I don’t think I have ever seen Smith better in the role than he is in this episode. Really an outstanding turn from him ( Don’t get excited you “add an S people”…)
Much there deliberately to excite fans – open the console and hear the TARDIS memories (Susan’s first explanation of TARDIS, Pertwee’s voice, Leela’s wonderful “that’s silly” to Tom Baker in Robots of Death and his outraged response, Ecclestone, Tennant and Donna, Ian Chesterton’s remarkable speech as he came to understand what he and Barbara had stumbled on – there are more but these were all these aged ears could get), the swimming pool, the Library in which there is a History of the Time War ( and quite who wrote that? And this is where his real name is written? It’s such a secret but its written down?), the Eye of Harmony, Melody’s cot, a toy TARDIS (an in-joke or a clue?), Tom Baker’s magnifying glass, another umbrella, all good texture – and fun.
The Doctor is wearing a fob watch…
So many extraordinary moments:
“Right behind those doors is the salvage of a lifetime” – ” you meant the Ship, I meant Clara”. So he knows she is going to salvage (save) his lifetime?
“Come on Clara…talk to me” The Doctor says this when he has just made the air in the TARDIS breathable again – does he expect her to contact him telepathically?
“Whatever machine you require, this system will build it” – inside theTARDIS. Bet that power will come in handy before the Anniversary Special is over…
“The TARDIS is leaking… recent history. But it’s not real, it’s a memory” seems pretty clear, then, that the TARDIS is capable of archiving the Doctor’s past and present and rebooting him when necessary, if necessary. And the TARDIS can create anything to serve a needed purpose. Like Clara?
“You did this to me, just so you could be the captain of a piece of junk” – sounds like something which might be said to the Doctor…
“Secrets protect us, secrets make us safe.” “We’re not safe!”
“You won’t go looking for my name”. A chilling moment. What will the Doctor do to people who do go looking?
The extraordinary “What are you?” scene – terrific work from them both. Clara does not know what she is and neither does the Doctor. It seems.
I chuckled at ” Ten being “woo-hoo” and One being “aarrgghh “- foreshadowing a return of Tennant and the Hartnell Doctor? As I have said before, 1 plus 10 equals 11…
A couple of niggles. How did the Doctor come to be outside the TARDIS at the beginning, after the crash? Why did the burn mark on Clara’s hand take time to appear? What, exactly, happened to the pole which pierced the body of the pretend Android? If it was removed,surely his blood loss would have been overwhelming? There are too many questions about him – seriously, how could a human really believe they were an Android just because someone says so? (Especially, if he is the smart one…) Anyway…
Once again the idea for the ultimate solution was a gentle push from Clara: she was the one to first mention the need for a big red button. She planted the idea in the Doctor’s mind and the TARDIS and the Dr ran with it.
Also interesting was Clara’s remark about the Doctor being the kind of man who needs his mother to approve of the girls he takes out – mothers again. Is that a reference to the Doctor’s mother approving of the TARDIS?
But most interesting of all, change something in a person’s timeline and you can rewrite their history…
And next week looks…everything Doctor Who should be. Can’t wait!
Right, now to watch it again and read your posts and see what I have missed…
24 April 2013 at 21:50 #6618@phaseshift. Perhaps the TARDIS created the book? We know she archives things but not how?
My guess is Clara will read it. And have her eyes opened about something.
but I wonder if leaking vortex energy will mean she can’t remember? If we are out of sequence, not remembering could start here?
24 April 2013 at 21:38 #6616@phaseshift. Always liked Hex too.
thanks for your ( and everyone’s ) kindness and good wishes. Have to go back in tomorrow and not sure if I will be out by Saturday night…but fingers crossed.
Enjoy all!
24 April 2013 at 21:31 #6612Given “Clara” was a Dalek, I am not sure it is much of a step for Hannah’s mother ( what was her name) to also be created/controlled by Clara. But then that whole Dalek nano thingy device bothered me – because if the Daleks can do that on the Asylum, why can’t they do it everywhere and subjugate the whole Universe?
Not sure the Time Lords will return. It seems more likely to me that Smith will fall at Trenzalore, answer the question that must never be answered with “I don’t know?”, avert catastrophe, get restored by Clara and sail on.
But who knows?
@ardaraith. Why does it mean Tennant thought River may have been a Time Lord? I don’t understand? Sorry to be dim.
24 April 2013 at 21:20 #6610@phaseshift. I loved Ultraviolet!
24 April 2013 at 21:18 #6609Memories. The TARDIS will be full of memories.
24 April 2013 at 17:53 #6599@ardarith @jimthefish
If the Doctor meets the Doctor is a tease for this episode, my guess is that Smith will meet himself, possibly save himself, because of some timey-wimey incident of being in the heart of the TARDIS.
I am too old for the numbers deciphering…That’s a young person’s game… 🙂
24 April 2013 at 17:38 #6596Agreed @jimthefish.
In a way, who cares? On the other hand, though, I doubt its the name that matters (unless its Rassilon or Omega or something) but what the name means and why the name should or should not be evoked.
I suspect the big reveal is more about who he is than what his name is.
And if he falls at Trenzalore and is asked his name, he will have to speak the truth. But if he has lost his memories, he wont be able to do that. Someone has been manipulating all of this to avoid the fate that Dorian predicted – the baddies did not want him to answer the question, so that ties in with the GI being behind his loss of memory.
Perhaps his name is the key to the lock on the Time Lords which sealed the Time War and if he utters it or anyone else does, the lock opens?
For all we know at the moment, the woman with whom the Doctor discussed his summons in Asylum may have been not part of the Daleks’ plan, but part of the plan which is either behind Clara or is Clara? If Clara has the power to do the things she does, why could she not set the Asylum adventure up?
And, most importantly, Clara is never there anyway. Its only a voice the Doctor hears. What we see as the story unfolds is what the Doctor thinks happens – its only when he sees Clara in Snowmen that he can “remember” her in Asylum. She is a Dalek, fighting back full conversion, or so she says. She is actually just a consciousness there, manipulating the events. So Asylum is probably a clue in plain sight. We have seen what the Doctor remembers happening based on things which had not happened to him when Asylum happened to him.
As timey-wimey as it gets methinks…
Memory and reality – with the power of love, they are the recurring themes whatever way you look at it.
23 April 2013 at 23:12 #6537@lula. Ryan is an old friend of mine. He will love to hear that. He worries about his accent. I tell him no one is listening to his accent but somehow that does not reassure…
23 April 2013 at 22:45 #6524i am sorry if I have posted in the wrong place. Not sure how I should delete?
23 April 2013 at 22:21 #6516Hello all
I have been in hospital unexpectedly…I think asgill has a voodoo doll…a very effective one!
Anyway…
Clara does strike me more as Mary Poppins than anything else at the moment. She just seems to solve problems without drawing attention to herself. And she is capable of bringing the best out of others, being the perfect governess, having an affinity with umbrellas and speaking in ways which dislocate or seem odd, but, in the end, resonate. Then there is the music…
And the thing about Mary Poppins, of course, is that she had a bag that was bigger on the inside than the out…
Of course, like the Doctor, Clara can be many things at once. I don’t think she needs to be connected with her “other selves” – I think they are just other aspects of whatever paradox/time line solver/ aspect of the TARDIS / Other Time Lord relative/ Clone from Dr’s Daughter she turns out to be.
I don’t think she is a trap. She is a solution. But she is not the Doctor’s solution and she does not know what she is.
I suspect that when she solves the problem of the Doctor’s lost memories/soul she will revert back to a more normal persona. I hope that is Susan, or the TARDIS somehow, but it doesn’t really matter as long as its not another Pond! ( With apologies to Pond lovers everywhere)
I agree that this story arc will not finish with the end of this season – we will have a cliffhanger where it looks like Smith is lost to us and then he will be restored/regenerated in the Anniversary Special.
In Snowmen, Clara said she didn’t believe in Ghosts. There have been ghosts of one kind or another in every story since – the ghosts of the wi-fi victims asking for help, the ghosts Clara sacrifices in Rings/the ghosts of Hartnell and Susan/the ghosts of Clara’s family/the ghost or soul of Saldak’s daughter and the appearance of the “ghost” Martian ship, when Skaldak thought they were dead and the obvious and hidden ghosts in Hide. In this week’s story, surely the trip into the TARDIS will yield yet more ghosts ( I fully expect to see a ghost of a previous Doctor explaining some aspect of the TARDIS this week or some other genuine reflection of the past) and then there is a horror story (with a sure possibility of ghosts of some kind) and then the Cyberman story which seems it might be about the Cybermen not being the ghosts of the past everyone thinks they are ( which would hark back to how Jamie first encountered them, as the Silver Piper, in Moonbase). Ghosts everywhere.
I rave on about all this now because it occurs to me that Clara’s statement ” I don’t believe in Ghosts” may be what activates the saving/restoration of the Doctor.
He will become a ghost of his former self – by losing his memories, facing his bow-tie double, fessing up to whatever he has done that he has kept secret all this time, facing his reality – but Clara will not believe in that version of the Doctor and will create the better, wizard like mad adventurer we all know so well. And so he will be restored – perhaps with a little help from his friends who he has thought of as ghosts but who actually are with him all the time, in his mind, exactly as Troughton said they were all those years ago in Tomb of the Cybermen.
All of which makes the Ghostbusters line not as naff as some think it was.
We will see.
But, what I will say is this: I don’t care, actually, how it resolves.
But if the quality is maintained at the levels it has been since Snowmen, the 50th Anniversary will be well served indeed.
Unlike the previous two Moffat seasons, to misquote another iconic sci-fi/fantasy hero: I have a good feeling about this!
And, whatever, Smith is rising to the occasion – these Impossible Girl episodes have seen him at his best, most consistent form. Which can only be good.
These last few days have made me stop and think a lot – and the thing I realise the most is that the very saddest thing about the 50th Anniversary of Doctor Who is not what it will be, but what it can’t be.
I never imagined a 50th Anniversary story that didn’t feature Sarah-Jane Smith and the Brigadier. And yet, that is the only thing about the Special we can be sure about.
Life is strange.
One more odd thought – is Clara a contraption of Clarabelle? If she turns out to be the personification of the Cloister Bell, I am not sure whether I will laugh or cry….always a good reaction. Troughton taught me that.
All the best to you all.
X
20 April 2013 at 20:34 #6183@phaseshift – not sure whether to smile or blush re @asgill.
I would have to think I had been unfair to him – but, honestly….non-falsifiable dogma?
and just noticed – he’s back….
🙁
20 April 2013 at 19:52 #6172Okay – so this started extremely well, very Pertwee atmosphere, very Planet of the Spiders ( really, Matt Smith could not pronounce Metebelis properly? Or was that a clue? ) but also a touch of Tom Baker (Fendahl, Stones of Blood – that peculiar mixture of mundane and horrific ) and even, perhaps McCoy ( Ghostlight, Fenric ) but explanations were slightly rushed in favour of the Doctor alone in a scary forest. I would like to know what the Doctor did with Hila – where did he take her? He could not leave her in 1974 surely? But an excellent supporting cast makes this really shine – and JLC is marvellous as Clara (this was her first filmed episode as ‘normal’ Clara I think?)
But, in truth, the story was not the thing really – this was all about foreshadowing: people have surprising secrets, even lonely monsters need a companion, impossible things can happen, love can cross universes and timelines, great-grandchildren have real bonds with their grandparents, things can escape pocket Universes (House? Romana?)
Although – Is this level of foreshadowing really necessary? Can we not just have good stories told? Why do we need to be prepared?
Another Professor…this one unafraid to identify the Doctor as deceitful, a liar, one who has seen and done things and wants to escape that, who lies about his past and what he has done. The Professor is then revealed to be someone who killed and had others killed, who sent young men and women to their deaths but who lived on, carrying the burden of their deaths, always wishing he could thank them – sounds like a ghost of the Doctor? An oblique reference to the Time War? Or something else? Did the Dr just run away from Gallifrey for adventures or did he have to run away because he was a coward or guilty of some infraction that cost others their lives?
Interesting – the Dr has a sliver of ice in his heart ( which of course he would have given he sealed the Time Lords up forever ) and Clara should not trust him – but the Emma the Empath has nothing to say about Clara? Fobwatch in action?
Clara vocalises her fear that the TARDIS does not like her – but even then the Dr does not give her the key. Why not?
For whom the Cloister Bell tolls…was it summoning Clara?
The TARDIS thinks the image of Clara is one that Clara would recognise – suggesting, clearly, that whatever Clara is, it is not Clara? Clara is a disguise? Equally, though, it seems like the TARDIS might now be happy with Clara – but why? What happened to change that?
Did Clara operate the TARDIS? Or did the TARDIS drive itself?
Did Clara send a telepathic message to the Doctor just before he realised there were two lovers separated, one in the pocket Universe? You hear her voice saying Doctor…she also seems to work out the relationship between Hila and Emma before the Doctor ( given she drags him away from them, to give them some time together)
In Snowmen, Clara said she did not believe in ghosts, so perhaps she was on to the truth here from the start? She was the only person to detect the scuttling motions that signified there was a “something else”. Although she and the Doctor were scared by Mrs Crooked Man, the Doctor seemed to forget about that entirely, even when confronted with Mr Crooked Man in the pocket Universe.
But, on the other hand, she seems to be able to solve mysteries or puzzles or conundrums without knowing what she is capable of. Almost as if she is responding by reflex or intuition, without thinking or planning.
The Doctor appears not to trust Clara – but, then, he didn’t trust the Crooked Man until the reality was made plain to him.
Cute discussion about the difference between a companion and an assistant! And Clara’s speech about companions of the Doctor being ghosts to him – side-stepped by the Doctor.
The Empath’s costume reminded clearly of Sarah in Time Warrior – but what is the significance of 25 November 1974 if any? Almost a month before Tom Baker premiered in Robot – was there a repeat of Spiders then? Is it a reference to the discovery of the three million year old skeleton they called Lucy?
For those who are contemplating the role of music – the music room is the centre of the House and the Doctor quotes Cole Porter’s famous list song Lets Do It, Lets Fall In Love.
Could not see any Egypt references but no doubt @juniperfish will put me straight.
And next week looks very intriguing…
Right. Now to watch it again and then read what has already been posted and see what I have missed!
19 April 2013 at 23:17 #6113Definitely a swimming pool and a library.
Some reference to the Time War.
A strange power room – perhaps related to the Eye of Harmony?
A place where different time zones meet?
Maybe an echo of the white space we saw in Mind Robber?
A bedroom.
A music room?
Perhaps some accoutrements of earlier Doctors?
19 April 2013 at 13:56 #6069That the Master is the Doctor’s son and therefore Susan’s father?
19 April 2013 at 13:54 #6068@ardaraith Where does that synopsis come from? I must say I have always thought it would be a great story if the Master collected some of the Doctor’s old companions and then held them ransom…
Such a great poster! A smashed TARDIS, an enigmatic/slightly chilling Doctor, and a figure running away in the background…
I agree with you and @juniperfish that it is unlikely we will actually hear his name.
What have we always thought impossible???
That the Doctor would be utterly defeated? That the Doctor is a Dalek? That the Doctor would destroy the TARDIS? That the Doctor is or was a coward? That the Doctor would betray a friend to save himself? That the Doctor can regenerate into a form he has previously held? That the Doctor regenerates into the Master? That the last 50 years has been a dream?
What?
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