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5 August 2013 at 22:51 #15502
@tardisblue – I actually felt quite sorry for Rufus Hound. I know I’ve cocked up on plenty of occasions (admittedly not live on BBC One) and been so annoyed about the first mistake I’ve lost all concentration and made more. It’s what did for my football career. Well, that and the complete lack of talent.
As @MadScientist72 suggested, I initially thought it was because Peter Davidson was sitting there, it was only afterwards I thought maybe there was another name on his lips. Evidently not – thank you for the blogpost link, poor guy sounds gutted. Interesting though that The Moff was that close and yet wasnt on the live show.
5 August 2013 at 13:05 #15463@Shazzbot – ha! I’ll take that back then. The headlines on the front seem to be all using ‘Next Doctor’ : http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006q2x0
that’ll teach me not to delve further!
5 August 2013 at 12:13 #15458@thommck –
It was odd how they kept referring to PC as the 12th regeneration and absolutely no mention of where John Hurt fits in
Yeah, I noticed that too, and at first thought it may hint at the Hurt Doctor being a later incarnation. However, the BBC Doctor Who webpage seems to be being very careful to refer to PC as ‘The Next Doctor’ rather than the 12th. I suspect that whoever had scripted last nights special had no connection to the production team and hadn’t accounted for the mystery of the Hurt Doctor.
Clara & the Doctor – I can see him being in a paternal role towards Clara. She is going to be a little bit lost if she survives the 50th
Good point this and I think critical to her character next season – I can’t remember the exact quote, but at the end of TNoTD, she refers to not knowing who she is. If she’s fulfilled what she sees as her role in life then she’s going to need help finding herself.
5 August 2013 at 11:14 #15443@juniperfish @fishcombobulated –
Yeah, gore levels in Hannibal are pretty gross, but tended to be worst in the first 15 minutes or so to set up the killer of the week. Have had to look away from the screen on a good few occasions. However, the rest of each episode has then tended to be more psychological exploration, and Mads Mikkelson has utterly surpassed Tony Hopkins portrayal – charming, cunning, manipulative and highly intelligent. More psychopath, less pantomime villain. Which is what I’d like to see the next portrayal of The Master being.
4 August 2013 at 23:42 #15315Actually, if they could actually get Derek Jacobi back in a more long-term way, he’d be perfect…
Agree. Apologies, I was typing when you posted, so didn’t realise you’d posted the same.
4 August 2013 at 23:36 #15312@juniperfish – Think Eva Green’s tendency to lose her clothing may count against her for pre-watershed family viewing. Although could possibly render the Doctor speechless.
I’ve been really impressed with Mads Mikkelsen’s take on Hannibal – a lesson in reinterpreting an iconic character. Perhaps rather than going toe to toe with Capaldi on venomous anger, the new Master should take a leaf from this and be returned to being more calculating and manipulative – particularly if it could be used to make the Doctor look angry and bitter, and the Master calm and reasonable. I want the Doctor and the Master to be more of a psychological battle for the hearts and minds of those around them, not the unhinged nutcase we’ve seen since 96.
If we’re looking for a big name, I’ll go for a long shot with John Noble. Unless the new Doctor gets to spend time with an older version of the Master – a pre chameleon arche’d Derek Jacobi.
4 August 2013 at 23:01 #15300Oh, and I’d like him to be wearing a toga. With absolutely no explanation as to why.
4 August 2013 at 22:49 #15296@fishcombobulated – As a Briton, I have no idea why most of the celebrities were there either. Or whether they really qualify as celebrities. If the talking heads had been limited to current and ex-stars of the show, that would have been a start. When Bonnie Langford is one of the highlights of a Doctor Who related show, something is going wrong.
The whole thing has annoyed me because it smacks of the BBC taking a slapdash approach to one of it’s biggest shows (and cashcows.) Symptomatic of the whole approach to the 50th anniversary. Still no trailer…grr…
Despite that, I’m really happy and excited about Peter Capaldi as the next Doctor. To focus on the point of this topic – my guess is a Doctor who is observing, advising and encouraging others, rather than getting hands on in the action himself – not least because having made himself unknown to his enemies, it’ll be a bit pointless if they all immediately start finding out who he is again. I’m also hopeful for permanent multiple companions. And I can’t picture PC doing the Last of the TimeLords angst – I reckon he’ll either have come to terms with it, or won’t be the last anymore.
4 August 2013 at 21:58 #15268@shazzbot – Zoe Ball, convenient on payroll presenter who presumably wasn’t doing anything at the time. Married to Fat Boy Slim, who also has nothing to do with Doctor Who. Also appears to be turning into Tess Daly.
What worried me more about it was that it felt so cheap. Exactly the stick used to beat DW with BG – so if anyone with only a casual interest tuned in, they may have gotten the impression that the AG advances in production values had been reversed and the show was heading back to the 80’s underfunding. May be me just being paranoid of course.
4 August 2013 at 21:34 #15257Yeah, happy with Capaldi. Which worries me. Because I was worried about MS, and he’s surpassed my expectations (and will be missed in our house just as much as DT was.) So my judgement is clearly awful and therefore we should be concerned about this choice! But yeah, think he will do otherworldly and professorial well and I think the show will be quite different than the other AG series.
Think @bluesqueakpip is right – we’re in for a littering of roman references, but wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a reference to sometimes taking the image of someone the conscious or subconscious has once seen – another little continuity question mark waved away forever more.
Thought the live show was awful – cheap and largely pointless, and I reckon the absence of anyone currently involved with the show from the studio was telling. Got the impression the clip of Kate Silverton reading the news that MS was leaving had been faked as well (and I’m pretty sure she was wearing the same suit when reading the news 5 mins after the show) – if so, why? To create the impression that the BBC were always in control of the situation? It all felt a bit amateurish. Rufus Hound ‘Peter Eccleston’ – nearly gave the game away early?!
@shazzbot – cheers, and yeah the ninja toddler is grand. Just started shouting ‘Doctor’ when the live show started. He’s never said it before. Two very proud parents 🙂
4 August 2013 at 02:02 #15028Wow I go away for a few weeks and this place proves more challenging to keep up with than my ninja like toddler!
Congrats to @shazzbot on the promotion to über lord 🙂 Also loved the TARDIS translation circuits anti trolling – genius (@jimthefish I think?)
Lots of thoughts come
and gone as I’ve been reading through but as far as the announcement of the announcement of
the announcement is concerned – hopefully the start of a 50th build up by the beeb hence doing a big life show. Not sure it’s indicative of a big name. It could be the chance to hype up an unknown or they need 30 mins to introduce all 12 new doctors for next season (having failed to get traction for a doctor lite series theory I’m shamelessly taking @blenkinsopthebrave‘s multi regeneration theory and sprinkling in 12 doctors scattered through time and Clara has to choose the one who deserves to carry the name of the doctorotherwise, I hope it’s Andrew Scott, and I hope that’s why Sherlock season 2 has just been on to remind everyone that he’s bloody good. I also think its the best possible time for a female doctor – 50th anniversary, everything in the air continuity wise etc but I just have a feeling we won’t be getting one.
4 July 2013 at 00:44 #13149@MadScientist72 – welcome! And some lovely theories to start with. We had a bit of a debate over on the Name of the Doctor thread about whether the terms of the prophecy have been fulfilled yet and what it means for the Silence. As you say, it could be taken that they had no issue with the question being asked, just it being answered. So Silence falling isn’t an issue to them, it’s what happens subsequently. I think they may yet have a role to play.
Also, as @Shazzbot says, I’m glad to see you advocating Colin Baker – June failed to produce any real supporters on the Faces of the Doctor thread, so an alternative view would be good reading – I’d be interested to know why you rate him.
Personally, one of my earliest Doctor Who memories is PD transforming into CB but almost immediately I didn’t enjoy the show anymore. I was too young to know about the background shenanigans, production problems etc, all I knew was that I felt ‘safe’ with PD around, whereas I didn’t want the new Doctor onscreen. The costume and attitude just made me think he was someone I’d cross the street to avoid.
McCoy brought me back home to the tv show, while I’d also gotten buried in the novelizations and then subsequently the reruns of earlier Doctors. But seeing Colin Baker’s Doctor always reminds me of that detachment from the show I had, so I’ve never been able to bring myself to reassess the period – please feel free to try and convince me otherwise!
Anyway, look forward to seeing any more theories you may have… the more bonkers, the better 🙂
20 June 2013 at 20:52 #12680But, that’d be as daft as painting “duck” on a wall and making that work for people years later to avoid a thrown object.
You mean that’s not plausible?! Damnit, I’d been doing exactly that on my walls before I put the wallpaper up. You know, just in case 😉
20 June 2013 at 20:26 #12675@Wisht @htpbdet
The versions of Clara we saw in Asylum and Snowmen were not “whole” in the sense that her memories of her experiences since meeting the Doctor and how she came to be where she was were gone.
Do you think? I took it from the flashbacks in NoTD that Clara commentated on that she did remember the Doctor, hence the ‘It’s smaller on the outside’ reaction to the TARDIS in The Snowmen. But then, it appears in each of those cases the Claricle has lived a full life wherever she has been shattered to while Clara Prime has remained in the track of tears? Not sure, need to rewatch – certainly I got the impression that her original self hasn’t been able to/didn’t know how to leave.
20 June 2013 at 14:00 #12667@craignixon – yeah, I think there’s a reason we’ve seen the Doctor trying to teach Clara to pilot the TARDIS and I don’t think it’s just to prove that he can teach better than Sexy herself!
20 June 2013 at 13:55 #12666Although I’m still sticking with Hurt as potential 12th Doc (so we get to see past, present and future all on screen together), here’s a little bonkers theory that crossed my mind…
Doctor 10 and Rose are involved in a previously unseen adventure which (possibly thanks to the GI) results in the shock death of the Doctor, who then regenerates into Doctor 11.1 – the Hurt Doctor. The newly regenerated Doctor finds himself caught between having to allow the death of Rose (the companion who brought him back to himself post Time War) or walking away. Rather than finding a third way, he accepts the situation, walks away and disconnects from the universe by finding his own grave and walking into the timeline – all the good things Doc 10 and 11 would have gone on to do remain undone.
Clara and Doctor 11.2 (the Smith Doctor) having met the Hurt Doctor in the timeline, manage to restore the original timeline. Doctor 10 goes on to lose Rose but gets to meet Martha, Donna, stop the Master, Davros and the TimeLords and eventually in saving Wilf, regenerates into Doctor 11.2 – the Smith Doctor.
The Hurt Doctor, existed only in a closed timeline and never was. Doctor 11.2 can recall him in the same way that Clara’s memories from the closed loop in JTTCOTT were leaking back, a part of his history that he never experienced. 11.1 gets a moment of redemption and then coalesces with 11.2 as they regenerate into a new Doctor.
This can then be used as precedent for how the Valeyard could have existed ‘between the 12th and final incarnations’ without ever having to show the Valeyard on screen. The merging of multiple forms of the same incarnation possibly screws up the regeneration limit. The audience get an early warning that regeneration can bring about very different kinds of Doctors by seeing the a different version of the history they’ve known for the past 6 years. And Moffat gets to play with another of his timey-wimey loops of doom 🙂
20 June 2013 at 13:04 #12664A devious thought occurred to me, and I’m not sure if it’s been previously suggested. Moffat et al, deciding that much as they’d like a surprise regeneration realise that with Matt Smith’s film commitments, the three year rule of thumb approaching etc there was no way they could quell the speculation or prevent the news getting out. So they leak confirmation that MS is in fact leaving. The episode arrives, we all sit in baited breath, waiting for that blast of time energy, radiation, poison, stray bullet, TimeLord maliciousness or radio telescope to take out our hero and.. it doesn’t happen.
Series 8 starts with Matt Smith still twirling his bowties and it emerges that he’s contracted per episode rather than for the season – every moment of danger is then the one that could cause a regeneration, maintaining suspense until mid-season he’s off.
I don’t think for a second this will happen, because I think given that the regenerations are event episodes, they will always be used to lead in or out of the Christmas specials now, bookending the series. But if I were in charge and wanted to maintain an element of surprise…
19 June 2013 at 13:52 #12549@htpbdet –
The thing is, though, that the Eleventh did fall at Trenzalore. He was dying and then Clara intervened. Silence commenced falling – but Clara stopped it. The Eleventh stepped into his own time tunnel and has yet to emerge – so, for all relevant purposes, the Eleventh has fallen and we have not seem him rise. Yet.
I’m sure you’re right and the fall into the timeline was my initial reading of ‘The fall of the Eleventh’. He may not even exit the timestream back at Trenzalore, so to an observer there, he would appear to have fallen and never risen. I’m veering into over complicating in my quest for a universal theory of everything.
You might be right about the TARDIS. Nothing magical about my thought. I was just trying to come up with something that Hurt might do that might cause that reaction in Smith and be considered a non-Doctor thing to do. Deliberately killing the TARDIS to create the time tunnel, or even allowing the TARDIS to shut herself down for that purpose, seemed to me to fit the bill.
Hey, I’m not trying to shoot down any theory – they’re all good and keep me far too distracted 🙂 I do think that the non-Doctor action is likely to be of a more personal nature such as TARDIS related or to do with his departure from Gallifrey than of the genocidal, war mongering, planet burning type. I did wonder if it might be related to Susan’s parents and why he felt it necessary to go on the run with his Granddaughter, but suspect that may be too far removed from younger viewers who’ve only joined AG.
the three versions of the Doctor coalescing into one, thereby eradicating the Valeyard and other canon baggage (such as regeneration limits) and affecting the Doctor fundamentally, setting a new course.Also, another argument in favour of the Hurt Doctor being a future Doctor – past, present and future all together.
One matter of interest, to me anyway, was the “daisest daisy” line from Pertwee as Smith fell – which easily leads you to thinking about the hermit teacher and K’Anpo Rimpoche – and the idea that more than one form of the one Time Lord can exist simultaneously and then merge as in Planet of the Spiders.
Good spot, completely passed me by (on several viewings. I’d like to say it’s due to the dangers of watching with an 18 month old, but given the amount that commentators on this website and the Gruan manage to highlight that passes me by, hardly surprising.) As you say, leads thoughts towards your coalescing theory, but also points back at his younger life on Gallifrey. Perhaps we will find out more about why he ran away after all?
18 June 2013 at 17:39 #12495I’m still slightly wary that Doctor Ten and Rose will turn out to be Zygons as some part of a trap or misdirect. And I will be really quite annoyed if that proves to be the case. I want to see the proper 10th Doctor and Rose in action, not some misdirection (and that includes the Doctor-Clone).
Agree, I’ll be more than a little narked if we don’t get the proper Doctor Ten and Rose – and furthermore if they turn out to be extended cameos rather than giving us a full multi-Doctor adventure. However, I’m reasonably confident that won’t be the case
But I think it’s fairly certain that the Zygons having been revealed so prominently and so early means that they will not play much part in the 50th.
Yup, makes me wonder what they’re holding back as a surprise (assuming that Matt Smith’s departure wasn’t it) – it’s kind of a shame the Zygons didn’t get a standard episode return instead because I’d love to see them back properly, and I think this will be fleeting.
But I’m still pretty adamant that Hurt’s costume dates him pretty conclusively somewhere between McGann and Eccleston.
Maybe he didn’t have time to forge his own outfit – and has just been using stuff he already had lying around in the TARDIS that he’s not worn for a while 😉
18 June 2013 at 17:24 #12492@htpbdet – yes, your pairing of events to the prophecy makes sense, and I agree it is likely to be the events the prophecy was referring to. The argument I was making about prophecies though is that they can often be attributed to more than one event and the narrative of stories about prophecies is often driven by a character focusing on one event and being caught out by another.
When the ‘Fall of the Eleventh’ was first mentioned, the common assumption was that it would refer to the death/regeneration of Matt Smith’s Doctor. The events of TNoTD suggest it actually applies to the TARDIS falling from space or the events within the tomb. But perhaps the eleventh is still to meet his actual end, his fall, at Trenzalore and it is then that another question (or even the same question asked for another reason) is asked. The tomb was, after all, Eleven’s current TARDIS configuration (complete with recently cracked window).
To twist my own argument on it’s head of course, as many of us were expecting the prophecy to be occurring at the death of the Eleventh Doctor, it’s as likely that the events of TNoTD were the actual events of the prophecy.
Doctor’s Wife makes me think that the TARDIS would not want to live without her “thief”. So, I could see how the concept could be comprehended by the Eleventh.
Completely agree that the TARDIS wouldn’t want to live without her thief, but I took this as the TARDIS chose to shutdown at the demise of the Doctor, rather than her thief shutting her down first. I’d take the Doctor choosing not to carry on as the action not in the name of the Doctor and the death of the TARDIS being a consequence of that, rather than being the action in of itself.
Incidently –
Clara is lost in the “track of tears” and so the Doctor enters to save her. But it is unclear how he intends to do that.
But once he enters his own time tunnel, he surely would be able to know all of his future – because the whole of the life lived is there one way or another.
Which appears to be how he knows what the Hurt Doctor has done.
I like this, it’s neat and could be explained in a line of dialogue easily. As I’ve said I’m on the side of Hurt as a (potential) future Doctor but the sticking point is how the Eleventh would know what his future self had done (other than the Hurt Doctor having crossed his own timestream at some point in the past). If the anniversary is then about the Doctor crafting a new future for himself so the Hurt Doctor ceases to be, this would fit with SM’s suggestion that
‘…the show must be seen to be going forward. It’s all about the next 50 years, not about the last 50 years. If you start thinking it’s all about nostalgia then you’re finished…’
As canon appears to have been made selective, it would make sense for the episode to also be saying that the future is yet to be written. The Doctor knowing what his future holds from being in his timestream, uses help from his past (i.e. Ten) to change it. I think it would make Eleven’s regeneration – possibly as you say coalescing with ten into one form – quite an uplifting, positive change, rather than a mournful departure.
18 June 2013 at 14:20 #12488@htpbdet – Perhaps Clara locates Tennant and Rose (who are fighting the Zygons?),
I did wonder if the willingness to announce returning characters early is a big curve ball and what we’ll actually get is a previously unseen Ten + Rose vs the Zygons adventure that Eleven and Clara (or perhaps just Clara as you suggest?) stumble into, rather than the Zygons providing the main antagonists for the entire special?
I agree that whatever was done ‘but not in the name of the Doctor’ is not going to be the ending of the Time War. The Doctor is too accepting/guilt ridden over his actions for that to be a buried secret. I keep coming back to ROA and the Doctor stating that ‘we always stay and fight… unless we’re holding something precious in which case we run as far and as fast as we can’ (can’t remember the exact quote sorry) and it makes me think that the thing done not in the name of the Doctor, was to not stand and fight. But this doesn’t quite tie in with the Hurt Doctor appealing that ‘I did without choice’ and Eleven – despite being antagonistic towards the Hurt Doc – agreeing with this. This makes me think that it couldn’t be something like killing the TARDIS, because I can’t see Eleven ever agreeing that he had no choice in that.
It seems to me that whatever Hurt’s Doctor did can’t be in the past of the Eleventh – because otherwise, if it was so contemptible, why didn’t the Doctor redress the deed? There may be a good reason for it, of course, but non-intervention seems odd unless the reason is remarkable.
I think the majority view is that the Hurt Doctor is an unknown past incarnation, but you’ve summed up largely why I’m leaning towards a future one. It ties in with the themes of JTTCOTT, recognising future/alternative versions and changing the present to stop them becoming a reality, and possibly of having memories of things that haven’t happened.
Is this what the sSlence was trying to prevent? An envigorated Doctor with a new lease on life?
The prophecy is quite vague. Silence will fall when a question is asked, a question that must never be answered. Do the Silence want to stop the question being asked or stop the question being answered? If it’s the former, then they presumably want to stop silence falling. If it’s the latter, then they’re not concerned with silence falling, more with what happens afterwards. It may not matter, but I think it would guide us as to their motivation.
I’m sure the wiser heads will be able to expand on this better – but don’t most classical mythology stories about people trying to prevent or fulfill prophecies involve a misunderstanding of what the prophecy means? Perhaps the question is nothing to do with the name of The Doctor and we’re still to find out what the actual question is?
17 June 2013 at 15:32 #12422Hi @Shazzbot – I’d like companions to be, well, just companions – not necessarily needing to be ‘helped’ by the Doctor.
Yeah, I take your point. I was more thinking that arguably since Donna, there seems a need for their to be more to the companion than just their ability to be helpful, although you had romance arcs with Martha and Rose as well so perhaps it’s an AG generality, so was trying to think of new ways this could be achieved. As you rightly point out, the PG companions could be fully rounded without needing additional baggage and ideally future companions could go back to that, but I’m not sure that will happen while maintaining the extended family motif.
I’d also prefer a companion – or really, multiple companions – who aren’t from present-day London.
To play devils advocate, Amy was Scottish, who had been brought up in the English countryside (Why? Why not a Scottish aunt taking her in in a Scottish village? Always wondered that) but yeah, me too – would love to see an alien companion (even one who was conveniently human shaped to avoid hours in make up ala Leela). I think seeing Earth bound episodes through alien eyes would be good variation, but without the human companion you lose justification for so many episodes happening to take place in modern day London. I also much prefer the TARDIS with multiple companions, so perhaps a human – alien mix would work?
17 June 2013 at 13:51 #12408Greetings all, been lurking recently but haven’t had chance to contribute (arguably of course, I never contribute anyway, just ramble! 😉 )
Firstly, welcome back @htpbdet – good to see you back and posting, hope the recovery is going well. Glad to see you and various others singing the praises of Andrew Scott, think he would be a wonderful choice, although I suspect (as @chickenelly referenced as well) the Sherlock cross pollination would give him a rough ride with the SM detractors.
Secondly,Rory Kinnear. No issue with him at all, would watch as ever and probably enjoy, but can’t say the idea fills me with ‘Oooh, wonder what his Doctor would be like?’ Although saying that, the whole rumour feels very like the Paterson Joseph one that did the rounds just before Matt Smith was announced.
Thirdly, I’ve given up on guessing the identity of the new Doctor, because I’m sure that the names I can come up with are going to be too high profile, so I’ve been thinking about what I want the new Doctor to be like instead. I’d like the universe weariness to have gone, with more of a thoughtful scientist wanting to get under the bonnet of the universe, to be looking and trying to make sense of the unknown rather than the cleverness being in what they already know. Not so much trying to fix things as trying to understand them. I think that would then play well into science as horror type stories (e.g. please please please a Genesis of the Cybermen story as we discussed weeks ago). Perhaps companions being people the Doctor needs to find a way to help, rather than a mystery for the Doctor to solve. I’d like more historical stories as well (and by historical, I’m thinking pre-Victorian!) and given I spent time living in Japan, I’d like to see some trips to Asia in amongst the Earth based stories.
Finally, female Doctor. Been reading the debate on here for the past week or so about the justification or not for a female Doctor and I’m still in favour, as long as it is story driven and not tokenism. @arkleseizure made a good suggestion of it being linked to the Doctor River’s remaining regenerations. I like that, not least because Lets Kill Hitler is my least favourite episode of Matt Smith’s run thus far – and I wondered at the time if it was so busy closing some threads and planting seeds for new ones that it failed to be a story in its own right. This would back up that suspicion. I also like @bluesqueakpip ‘s suggestion that it could be necessary to change the future ala JTTCOTT. I wonder if, fitting with this idea, we’ll see this Doctor forcing himself to regenerate, rather than having to because of injury, poisoning, old age, having it hoisted on him by the TimeLords or due to being attacked by a radio telescope?
I don’t think there would be any issue about boys not wanting to watch a female Doctor – it’s not as if Buffy was unpopular with males, and I’m sure that wasn’t purely driven by attraction to Sarah Michelle Gellar (likewise, I’m certain our many female commentators, even if they do have a liking for Tennant or Smith, don’t purely watch because of the physical appeal of the lead.)
Ultimately, if you have well written, exciting stories with good arcs and characters that keep drawing us back to the show, it shouldn’t matter if the lead is male or female. As far as female representation goes, I think the lack of female writers is probably more pressing.
Anyway, enough of my rambling. Hope you’re all well 🙂
3 June 2013 at 15:20 #11754A regeneration in the now annual Christmas special seems the wrong time to do it.
Seen this mentioned by a few people, but it’s pretty much the pattern for PG-who. The Eccleston – Tennant regen led into the first Christmas special, and the first of ‘The End of Time’ 2 parter for Tennant’s departure was the Christmas day special, so while we haven’t seen a regen on Christmas Day itself, we’ve already had 2 of the 7 being regeneration related. Plus, British TV on Christmas Day evening often wades well into the waters of misery, so a post-dinner tear jerker would be completely in keeping with the national habit!
3 June 2013 at 14:58 #11753@Shazzbot – agree on bringing back Rose in S4 – it lessened the impact and emotion of that original departure. I’d have preferred for her return to have been along the lines of appearing in Turn Left but then not actually getting back to the Doctor, or ending up with a watered down knock off Doctor for a fiver off t’market etc.
I love NoTD as a River swansong, leave the rest of their adventures to the alt media, and don’t detract from that kiss and final goodbye.
3 June 2013 at 14:46 #11750@thommck –
what if series 8 had no Doctor! What if it was Clara and the TARDIS searching the universe for him
I was originally being slightly flippant when i suggested (over on the 50th Anni thread) that a Doctor-Lite Season could be used to get the audience comfortable with a leading lady (i.e. the companion, be it JLC or whoever) as a lead in to a female Doctor, but I began warming to the idea… but now you’ve produced the extreme example! I like it, think it’s got legs.
They’ve presumably been planning Matt’s departure for a while, but if auditions had already been taking place, I’m amazed the news didn’t leak earlier. And if auditions haven’t taken place yet, it’s surely cutting fine for the shooting of the Christmas special (if the new Doctor is to do anything more than be a face in a volcano) – so maybe a Doctorless Doctor Who could be a possibility.
Another thought – perhaps Clara is going to be searching for someone fit to take on the mantle of ‘The Doctor’? That’s why she’s a nanny – to nurse the new Doctor into the job, using her accumulated knowledge of all the previous incarnations. Is Trenzalore actually going to be the final resting place of this line of Doctors, with the title handed on to someone new?
2 June 2013 at 02:23 #11574Given the name of the thread… David Morrissey? Andrew Scott, already got ties with Moffat? We know he can do dark (although I fully expect the Valeyard thing to have been dealt with by the end of the anniversary). In all probability, someone I’ve never heard of. Or John Hurt.
To follow up on the female Doctor speculation from the other day, I’d have loved to have seen Suranne Jones or Olivia Coleman, but as they’ve both been in the show now, it’s unlikely. Natalie Robb as a long shot? Always stuck in my mind after a turn in Sea of Souls.
Gutted to see Matt go, but as @pedant says, in retrospect it does feel his story is wrapping up. Shame the news has broken, there seems to be a lot of tension being removed from the anniversary with these early reveals.
29 May 2013 at 12:43 #11310Mark Gatiss co-created Doctor Who? He’s still looking spritely then considering the show is about to turn 50! Well done Gruniad.
29 May 2013 at 12:40 #11308@bluesqueakpip, @scaryb – perhaps a variation on the ‘promoted companion’ concept could be used to pave the way for a female Doctor. For example, rather than having a Doctor-lite episode, they do a Doctor-lite season (or half season), with the companion using the TARDIS to hunt out the missing/hiding Doctor. The Doctor is still the main character (and could still be featuring in each episode just not with the companion), but effectively the companion doing the heavy lifting throughout. Having then established that the show can thrive with a female lead, the jump to a female Doctor becomes a little less controversial.
29 May 2013 at 12:15 #11304@whisht – thanks! Agree completely, if SM is making previous canon non-limiting, then why leave in place his own (unless he has a plan to resolve it soon enough).
Was wondering following the discussions upstream with @Shazzbot @bluesqueakpip et al about the regen limit though. Maybe it’s one thing that won’t get fixed in the 50th, purely because it’s useful dramatic tension. If TimeLords are guaranteed 12 regenerations, but after that, each death could lead to a regeneration or it could be it, then each life or death situation becomes that bit more tense.
@shazzbot re. Female Doctor being a ‘glass ceiling’ for female scientists. I vaguely remember (from re-runs anyway) scenes in the UNIT labs with Pertwee as ‘scientific advisor’ and Liz Shaw – it hinted at the Doctor enjoying science and being bright, having an enthusiasm for the world at its workings. It was a good example, and to reverse the roles somewhat, with a female Doctor taking the lead as the head scientist/teacher who wanted to tinker and understand things more, would be a great statement. Imagine someone with that kind of mindset then witnessing a Genesis of the Cybermen event and be torn between fascination with the tech and revulsion at the concept.
No thoughts on who to play the Doctor though – most of my preferences have guest starred so are kind of ruled out!
28 May 2013 at 17:19 #11232@scaryb – I think the not running is relevant too, as the Doctor has mentioned ‘all my life I’ve been running’. When he’s running he’s fulfilling the promise of the Doctor, but when he stops?
Good call on ‘more remorseful and guilt-stricken than evil.’ Almost appealing for confirmation that he was right.@Shazzbot – but I want a unified theory of everything! It’s why I tried studying physics. However the world and me rapidly came to a unified conclusion that I wasn’t very good at it 😉 I’m drawing a blank on how Moff is gonna get rid of the regen limit. To go to the bonkers degree, Eleven always regenerates into a new version of One, creating an infinite loop of Doctors who can have different adventures (and faces conveniently enough) before always eventually ending up at Trenzalore. If he/she ever breaks this pattern, they’ll end up as 12/13 and the end. Also avoids future writers having to come up with meta references to being the 37th Doctor or some such. And a new level of confusing debates for us. Before Gap vs After Gap? Tennant vs Smith? Old hat those. First Doctor version 1 vs First Doctor version 2 vs First Doctor version 3 is gonna keep us going forever more.
28 May 2013 at 16:39 #11229@scaryb –
All good points, and in my scenario if all defeats turned into death then he wouldn’t have lasted long enough to reach his own grave and prompt the events that led to the GI getting access to the timestream and creating a paradox.
I think you’re right in saying it his reputation was dying, but would that manifest physically? As we see others die in the changed reality (Jenny for example) the possibility exists that some of those defeats did lead to the Doctors death (and this is suggested by the flashback to the Asylum), which would have burned through his regenerations prior to this, leaving Eleven as the last.
re. GI as a sourpuss. The word sourpuss has always reminded me of Bagpuss. So I now think the GI finally finds contentment by taking the form of a grumpy fat pink toy cat and his whispermen get turned into mice 🙂
28 May 2013 at 15:59 #11220Just a couple of thoughts on the HurtDoctor –
There’s been discussion of where he fits in the Doctors timeline, and what he did that wasn’t in the name of the Doctor, but has anyone considered it might be what he didn’t do that was not in the name of the Doctor? Maybe, given his low regard for the TimeLords and antipathy towards the Daleks, he refused to fight at all for his own peace and sanity? The Hippocratic Oath mentions protecting others from harm and injustice. Perhaps by refusing to become involved, he failed to protect the innocent?
In RoA, the Doctor says to Clara, something along the lines of we always fight, we never run away, unless we are holding on to something precious in which case we run as far and as fast as we can. Can’t remember the exact quote, sorry, but I took the running with something precious bit to be referring to his departure from Gallifrey with Susan – could the bit about always fighting be a dig at the HurtDoctor?
On the other hand (because I like to play my own devil’s advocate), @scaryb –
A lot depends on where the HurtDr fits in. I keep trying to have him as the one who’s really dead at Trenzalore but I end up with the literal dead end problem. He presumably has to regenerate into one of the Drs we already know.
Unless he is the 12th Doctor, but travelled back in his own timeline to end the time war/do whatever it was he did. Would be recognisable to 8/9/10/11 because the current doctor at that time saw him do whatever he did and could also be used to explain the question that’s bugging me most at the moment –
Why was the HurtDoctor physically in the timeline when the other Doctors were ghosts? The only other solid presences were Clara and Eleven – have not seen enough bonkers theorizing to explain this yet, so I’ll suggest this as an extension to my previous wittering:
Eleven falls and regenerates at Trenzalore, into the HurtDoctor. Immediately recognising what he has become and knowing therefore what he has to do, he steps straight into his own timeline, and travels back to do whatever lost him the name of the Doctor, witnessed by his younger self who then has to live with knowing what he will eventually become/have to do (and increasingly fearing each regeneration as a consequence). HurtDoctor cannot then find a way back out of the timeline, so is still physically there when eleven and Clara arrive. 50th Anniversary sees the Eleventh resolve whatever the HurtDoctor did in a different way, so that his future is no longer anchored to known future actions in his own past!
Anyway, thats me. Any other thoughts on why the HurtDoctor has a more definite presence in the timestream than the other doctors?
28 May 2013 at 14:42 #11202@blenkinsopthebrave – Doubt we’ve seen the last of the GI. I suspect that the GI shards will be around to cause mischief, purely to avenge themselves on the Doctor for reasons they can’t remember. As you’ve pointed out, it’s hardly been the most mistreated of opponents for the Doctor, plans prevented but not really defeated as such – perhaps it now exists purely for revenge for revenge’ sake.And yes, for a ‘great’ intelligence, it didn’t seem to plan for what if’s following it’s attack on the Doctor. No contingency planning, no contemplation of cause and effect, no logical thought processes. Perhaps this is all being co-ordinated by the British Government.
28 May 2013 at 14:13 #11199Likewise, I agree that being in his own timestream could allow him to see his own future (and possibly did, if we assume HurtDoctor as Twelve/Thirteen or somesuch), but I was wondering does he have any future to see? It appears to be Eleven’s TARDIS console within the grave, the same crack in the window and Clara states that she saw all eleven versions of the Doctor. This suggests no future beyond Eleven.
I was thinking that from the moment the GI jumps into the Doctor’s timeline, we see the timeline start changing (notably from red to blue – I took that as this reality fracturing apart – but I think the actual lines were also changing?). The Doctor collapses and Vastra tells us his life is being re-written. We see him fall in the Asylum. Without Clara’s influence would there have been a regeneration then? What about on other occasions? Up to the moment when Clara jumped in, is it reasonable to assume the Doctor was finished inside his own tomb and therefore would have no future beyond that point?
This could explain the tomb-TARDIS being Eleven’s TARDIS (although could lead to there being two TARDIS flying around hmmm)
Clara’s actions restored the Doctor’s present (red shift changed back to blue, reality came back together, he was able to get up and start talking again) but at that point, the Doctor followed her into his own timestream. Perhaps, if the Doctor is physically inside his own timestream, it follows he isn’t presently outside of it, and without any real world presence, still has no future to be seen? Which could mean, that once they get out, the future is unwritten, the grave at Trenzalore gone etc.
25 May 2013 at 12:17 #10865I’m sure at some point the Master is going to escape that timelock, and it does occur that a marvellous arc could be developed in which he carried a few hundred non-Timelord Gallifreyans with him, as their “saviour”, to disappear to parts and times unknown. Not full Time Lords they would have every reason to hate and fear The Doctor, keeping him alienated. They could rely on lesser means of timelord technology like time rings to create havoc.
I like this. I can’t see the timelock/last of the timelords thing surviving past the 5oth, and this would be a good way to get some form of the TimeLords back without just resurrecting them in prior form. Can’t see the point in making all other canon hazy but leaving this millstone in place. as @bluesqueakpip says, sensible as it was at the time, it’s now a limitation – and the easiest way to end the lonely God thing would be for him to not be alone anymore.
Presumably the 50th is being pitched at a wider Who audience, perhaps people who haven’t watched recently but would be tempted back for the anniversary. If so I doubt it will be a Series 7 Part 3 – doubt we’ll see much about Clara’s backstory for example. As more of a standalone, it would make sense if it is dealing with wider themes – and to appeal to the widest audience this would be After-Gap stuff, so changing the Last of the TimeLords status would make sense to move the show forward.
23 May 2013 at 12:09 #10496I think the symbolism of Matt Smith’s Doctor continually making self-referential jokes about ‘Eleven’ is that he’s wiped the Hurt Doctor out of the continuity. The Hurt Doctor doesn’t count as ‘The Doctor’. He’s not worthy of the name. I am the Eleventh incarnation to live up to that name. I am the Eleventh Doctor.
I like that, repeating the lie until he convinces himself. Or trying to remind himself of who he is because he’s afraid he’s not living up to the name of The Doctor?
23 May 2013 at 10:54 #10485Capture one and have Edvard Munch use them for a painting. The Stetson/fez etc wasn’t really necessary.
🙂 Heehee. Love the thought of the Doctor trying to persuade Munch the picture would look much better if only he’d incorporate a hat.
23 May 2013 at 10:50 #10484Not sure I’ve mentioned this on here – it may have been T’Other Place – but John Hurt is the thirteenth actor to be officially credited as ‘The Doctor’ in the television continuity. Because the First was played by both William Hartnell and Richard Hurndall. Whatever his actual ordering in the continuity, he’s got to be the Dark Doctor.
I right in thinking that Eccleston was credited as ‘Doctor Who’ rather than The Doctor in the end credits? I seem to remember some controversy at the time and Tennant insisting on being the Doctor, but as I was out of the country, it’s the one series since the return that I’ve not seen fully/carefully.
Also about the Eleventh Hour clock symbolism – what if the Eleven was referring to the number of regeneration events, rather than the incarnation number (because, as the moment, Tennant – Smith was regeneration 10). Canon suggests 12 regenerations, 13 incarnations, which would tie with your suggestion that this references everything ending at 12. Could also be a get out for any dialogue referring to Smith as the Eleventh if the HurtDoc does turn out to be an earlier incarnation because this would make him the result of his Eleventh regeneration?
23 May 2013 at 10:33 #10481@chickenelly @janetteb @scaryb –
I did wonder if we’ve been given a bit of a misdirect in terms of why the Silence wanted to kill the Doctor, and who Madam Kovarian’s ‘endless bitter war’ was actually between. The GI (and his whispermen) manipulating people to his own ends isn’t far from the Silence’s own MO, so perhaps the endless bitter war was actually a turf war between the Silence and the GI.
What would be the easiest way to end this war (in the Silence’s favour)? – Stop the GI being scattered through time and space. How do you stop this happening? Prevent access to the Doctor’s tomb by taking out the only person known to have the password. Essentially the Doctor is just collateral damage in their long game.
I think the HurtDoctor is the Doctor’s own problem. His enemies aren’t keen on him in any incarnation (when they can remember who he is), so I don’t think their plans – or the Pandorica plan – would have been focused on preventing the HurtDoctor any more than any other version (and it was effectively Eleven who ordered the genocide of all the Silence – so what would the HurtDoctor have had to do to annoy them more than that?)
22 May 2013 at 13:41 #10344Looking at @badwulf ‘s list of HurtDoc possibilities above, I’m still inclined to (6) but thinking about what something elses could (8) be – I haven’t seen suggested yet, could he be all the doctors? They’ve all had their dark streak, some more than others admittedly.
It occurred to me that everyone we see in the timeline seem almost ghostly echoes running past, except for Clara (who jumped in) and Eleven (if that who he really is etc etc – who jumped in, so again is a physical presence) and the HurtDoctor. Does this mean that the HurtDoctor (which ever number he is) has also jumped into the timeline? Or is this the only place he actually exists – a physical incarnation of the sliver of ice at the heart of the Doctor? Or at the heart of all the Doctors, he’s always been there, influencing them to a greater or lesser degree?
21 May 2013 at 14:59 #10203Technically speaking, there are no changes to any of this. As with all time travel, you can’t actually go back and change time, because you already did. All time is happening at once. So therefore, Clara was always going to jump into the time stream, and therefore has always been there at every point through the Doctor’s history and future. She specifically states this, but that the Doctor doesn’t always hear her – in fact it appears that only 1 and 11 directly address her (and 10 in the 50th I presume).
I wouldn’t agree that everything must always have already happened. The assumption that everything has always happened and therefore must happen is just one theory on how the universe could embrace paradox. The multiverse/divergent-convergent realities is another theory. We can’t prove or disprove either in the real world, but we can see how the Whoniverse has been set up.
If everything that happened must already have happened, it follows that if I traveled back in time and killed my Grandmother, I must already have killed my Grandmother. But then I can’t exist, so I can’t go back in time., so I can’t kill her. This cannot occur in a universe where everything that happens has always happened, as I will always decide to time travel but my biological Grandmother cannot be both alive and dead at the same time.
Which is where the multiple realities theory comes in – essentially, the moment I murder my Grandmother, a divergent universe/reality has been spawned. In the original reality, I am still born, still attempt time travel etc. In the new reality, the woman who would have been my Grandmother was murdered. We end up with masses of universes branching out from each other like a really expansive family tree. With convergent realities, different events in different realities lead to the same overall result, merging 2 realities together – arguably, this is what Marty was actually doing in BTTF – he was forcing his new reality to merge with his original one so that when he travelled foward in time within that new reality, he would arrive home.
Canon already has it that there are multiple universes (Rise of the Cybermen for example) emerging to play out different events, and the fixed points in time are perhaps where realities converge again. So up to now we have seen the path through the various diverging and converging reality threads the Doctor originally followed, and the experiences that have made him who he is. Clara is trying to prod him down a similar path that will lead to him being much the same person. From here on in, we are following the Doctor down his altered path, so things in his history may now not be as we originally saw them – in fact, we don’t yet know how successful she’s been in getting him back to the same place. This could tie in with @ardaraith ‘s idea about the resolution of the time war being discovered to have changed when Clara and The Doctor emerge from the timeline (maybe because ClaraNanny makes Davros and Rasillon sit on the naughty step behind the timelock until they learn to get along 😉 )
21 May 2013 at 00:19 #10128Well, you perhaps have defined the entire post-2005 series’s Doctors. They are continually trying to remake that promise, leading to 10′s ‘I can change time to save people’ megalomania in the sincere attempt to regain the name of ‘The Doctor’ as a force for good. And to 11′s horror at being known as a force for evil, followed by his retreat from (but then re-entry to) doing good where he thinks he can.
Thanks! Very pleased with the idea that little old me could possibly sum up the post 2005 docs in one sentence 🙂 [OsakaHatter bathes in warm smug glow]
The reason I love this show (and this forum!) is that we can all take similar ideas and see such different potentials in them. You see the Doctors compensating for their past, I see them fearing what they know they are becoming (and trying to preemptively compensate).
Dunno why I’m so keen on the idea of the Hurt Doctor being a future version of the Doctor, just the feeling that other anniversaries have seen multi-Doctor stories, but always with the current doctor being the latest incarnation, so inverting whats been done before seems like a new twist. The idea of that future doctor going back and ending the time war while saving himself just seems like the kind of time loop that Moffat has been playing with throughout his showrunning tenure.
However, I was also thinking about ClaraPrime surviving inside the timeline. I’m beginning to swing behind the Clara as future Doctor theory – thinking that she needs to be to survive, and she only saw 11 Doctors because his time after 11 was in flux from the moment she jumped in (or couldn’t recognise/protect herself). Perhaps both Clara and the Hurt Doctor are potential future doctors, dark and light, but the Doctor having a low opinion of himself only recognises the dark.
Or, to use @ardaraith ‘s rather lovely suggestion that they manage to change the ending of the Time War, with healing rather than violence (and still trying to shoe horn my Doctor 12 theory in!) perhaps the Hurt Doctor is the future doctor who ended the time war in the current pass of the time loop I’m suggesting, but Clara takes his place and ends the war more gently, changing history and becoming Doctor 12 in the process – the audience then naturally accept a female doctor because she’s presented as the ‘good’ option.
I’m also still highly suspicious of the ‘Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor’ panel at the end. In fact, I’d buy him more as the Doctor (at any point in his history) if it hadn’t said that. It feels like misdirection. Particularly given the mischievous nature of Mr Moffat!
20 May 2013 at 17:11 #10057…He could have “broken the promise” during his first generation. This is equally as possible as him breaking the promise in any other generation after…
I’m just playing Devil’s advocate here. But I think this shoots the whole “He can’t be pre-Hartnell b/c he broke the promise, and the promise had to be made” argument out of the water.
I agree in that being the Hurt Doctor being Doctor Zero is no less likely than his being Doctor 8.5 for the reasons you state, but to play a different Devil’s advocate, do you think that a promise once broken can be remade?
@phaseshift has raised the Hippocratic Oath in terms of the Doctor (and was pretty much on the money, given that the ‘Name of The Doctor’ is explicitly stated as being a promise) and whether the Doctor will need to renew his oath. If we accept that he can renew his oath/re-make his promise, then the Hurt Doctor can fit into the timeline as Doctor Zero or Doctor EightPointFive. If you feel a promise once broken cannot be remade, then surely he has to be a future Doctor?
@davemorris316 – lovely idea that the Hurt Doctor is Doctor Twelve and steals (or tries to steal?) his people’s regenerations for himself for the greater good. Properly dark and delightfully bonkers, although may need tweaking so that the existence of the Doctors grave is explained? However, it could fit with my theory that it was actually Twelve that went back in his own timeline and ended the time war, so I’ll back you on that one! As he allowed his younger self (Doctor Eight or Nine) to escape, he knew what he was to become in the future (and knew it couldn’t be avoided as it would be a closed loop) and have been running from his destiny ever since. Hence the subsequent unwillingness to regenerate and horror at brief moments of TimeLord Victorious, and expecting to see John Hurt.
19 May 2013 at 20:32 #9880@shazzbot – just got a vision of Clara rounding off the movie tributes of this season by referencing Avengers – shouting “Puny GI” followed by punching Dr Simeon in the side of the head 🙂
19 May 2013 at 19:56 #9873@shazzbot – maybe the reason Clara often doesn’t interact with the Doctor is because she doesn’t have to? She’s focused on stopping the GI in the background so that the Doctor can do what he does in the foreground uninterrupted?
19 May 2013 at 19:43 #9868@shazzbot – fair point, we were taking Clara’s opinion as fact. The reason I brought it up though is more I’m happy (in my mind) to explain away that particular thread as due to the TARDIS avoiding potential paradox caused by picking up the wrong Clara. I’d be very surprised if it appears as any more than a running gag going forward.
19 May 2013 at 18:45 #9863@besd1, @juniperfish – perhaps the TARDIS’ waryness with Clara in RoA for example is because it was aware there were duplicates around, and couldn’t tell which one was Clara-prime?
19 May 2013 at 18:43 #9861@kurtcobanana – maybe because he can separate the John Hurt incarnation from the name The Doctor (because he acted not in the name of the doctor), but he can’t separate it from his birth name, other than by burying that name.
19 May 2013 at 18:13 #9856bullets went awol in the above, sorry for the unreadability!
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