The Next Doctor
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Craig 12 years, 11 months ago.
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5 August 2013 at 21:35 #15500
What ho!
Feeling a bit knackered so will be having an early night. I’ll jump in and answer some of the posts directed to me tomorrow.
Just wanted to share this. I remembered it from when Capaldi appeared in Fires of Pompeii and talked about the show to SFX in 2008. They’ve reprinted some of it in a profile today.
“When I was a kid, being a huge Doctor Who fan, I wrote numerous letters to the Doctor Who office largely inquiring about how the show was made.”
It was 1972 and Doctor Who was entering its ninth season on BBC 1.
“I was thrilled to have delivered to me a large package from the BBC containing two full studio scripts for the Jon Pertwee serial ‘The Mutants’, which they were making at the time.
“The package also contained set designs and studio floor plans for these episodes and a delightful letter from [producer] Barry Letts giving me an idea what all this stuff was.
“It was a fantastic exciting insight into both Doctor Who and television production generally. I had never seen a script in any form whatsoever before then and was immediately fascinated by the documents. And of course Barry’s kindness was a trigger to my ambition to work somehow (I didn’t know how) in TV. The scripts are still sitting on my bookshelf downstairs.”What an astonishing (and potentially life changing) gift from Letts.
5 August 2013 at 22:05 #15501@osakahatter and @MadScientist72,
Rufus Hound’s apparently very upset by his goofs last night. In a blog post that turned up on my smartphone’s newsreader, he says he “got all over excited … and just went into meltdown.” He did not know ahead of time that it’d be PC.
http://rufushound.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/i-want-to-shoot-myself-in-the-head/
(hoping my smartphone has learned its lesson about feeding me unverified fertilizer, so to speak. The blog post appears legit. And I certainly hope Hound has nothing more lethal than water pistols at his disposal.)
TardisBlue
5 August 2013 at 22:51 #15502@tardisblue – I actually felt quite sorry for Rufus Hound. I know I’ve cocked up on plenty of occasions (admittedly not live on BBC One) and been so annoyed about the first mistake I’ve lost all concentration and made more. It’s what did for my football career. Well, that and the complete lack of talent.
As @MadScientist72 suggested, I initially thought it was because Peter Davidson was sitting there, it was only afterwards I thought maybe there was another name on his lips. Evidently not – thank you for the blogpost link, poor guy sounds gutted. Interesting though that The Moff was that close and yet wasnt on the live show.
5 August 2013 at 23:17 #15504@chickenelly – it becomes even clearer that Plan A has been know for ages.
5 August 2013 at 23:18 #15505
5 August 2013 at 23:54 #155076 August 2013 at 06:02 #15511In light of the announcement of PC as 12, I have been thinking back to the Tardis makeover. At the time, there was a lot of discussion on this board about it, and, as I recall, a lot of people were quite unsure as to why it had happened. After all, it was expensive, and so many people loved the 11th’s Tardis interior from TEH on.
But now we know a lot more that may help explain the makeover, and perhaps even point towards the season 8. We now know that MS knew for a long time that he would be going at the end of the year. We now know that SM was planning ahead with that knowledge in mind. We now know that SM had only one person on his short-list for the 12th–PC.
So, I wonder if the Tardis got the makeoever it got in order to prepare us for the new Doctor and season 8? Because, when you think about it, it is a very different look. Gone is the steam punk clutter of the Tardis under 10 and 11, which suited the youth of 10 and 11. The new Tardis interior is, as others have pointed out, harking back to the simpler interiors of the early Doctors.
Somehow, I think this (the new Tardis, the new Doctor, the new direction for the show in season 8 that JC has talked about) has all been planned for quite a long time.
Of course, if the Tardis undergoes another makeover when 11 regenerates into 12, then it make rubbish of everything I have just said. But somehow, I think that this time the Tardis will stay the same.
6 August 2013 at 06:38 #15512as a counter point to the excitement, the guardian has reposted this, a comment article on Matt Smiths appointment.
http://www.theguardian.com/culture/garethmcleanblog/2009/jan/03/doctorwho-television
Worth a read
Nick
6 August 2013 at 07:39 #15513Anonymous @
@nick – there are lots of things in that article that, with the passage of time, are quite interesting to read.
Also, doesn’t anyone writing for a newspaper know the danger of making predictions?
Expect to see a lot more of Dervla Kirwan after her appearance in The Next Doctor at Christmas
the next maelstrom of giddy speculation can begin in earnest: the identity of his new companion. The smart money’s on Gina Bellman. Or Michelle Ryan.
6 August 2013 at 07:47 #15514@blenkinsopthebrave – @chickenelly posted a link to a BBC interview with Sophie Aldred yesterday, where Sophie made a point of saying that Peter Capaldi touched his lapels in the same way that Hartnell always did.
I tend to agree with your conclusion, the Tardis re-design and the hiring of PC point toward a revert to BG Who. It also makes me wonder just how much longer Steven Moffat intends to be showrunner – and whether it’s pertinent that Mark Gatiss is doing the ‘how we made Doctor Who’ special.
6 August 2013 at 07:52 #15515Ahhhh Gina Bellman, think she’d make a good Romana personally (if the other time lords ever came back into it)
6 August 2013 at 07:53 #15516Yes @pedant, Moff has clearly known for ages if scripts have been written already. As we’ve all said before (and he says himself) the Moff lies.
However the most exciting comment, in respect to our site, is that the Moff mentioned an ‘arc’. Oooh hoo bonkers speculation (well in 2014) ahoy.
6 August 2013 at 07:59 #15517@bluesqueakpip @jimthefish @Shazzbot
I thought a while about whether I should continue our discussion of not as this isn’t really the best place.
Whilst I don’t like how SM “created” River as a human with regenerations due to some mystical Tardis effect in the womb (because its a load of codswallop really) and that the “marriage” have largely been noted by its absence on screen (it looked more like a series of dates to me anyway), at least it makes some sort of sense. Both the Doctor and River have multiple regenerations are capable(in theory) of spending a long time together. I don’t think we know whether River ages as slowly as the Doctor (or how many regenerations she had before she became Alex Kingston alike), but there is much more inherent possibility in the relationship from the outset. Contrast this with say Rose, who is meant to be what 18 ?
The thing I find difficult to accept, is not that sex has entered the Tardis (I’m with Jim that it needs to be a given in the modern world), but the way the pre-River romance elements with Rose, Martha, Amy (and to a lesser degree with Clara) and Doc 10 and 11 were included and dealt with. My contention is that this could have been handled differently and without bring an element of Doctor romance into the equation so that we now (with an older appearing Doctor) or in the future (with a female Doctor) have this apparently age inappropriate relationship problem meaning that its difficult to see how the sex thing raising its head can be avoided with a older Doctor/young female companion or older female Doctor/younger male companion. Obviously, the “best mates” or mentor/mentee style relationship can work )and that is presumably how PC/Clara will work), but can this explanation be applied consistently now the genii is out of the bottle.
One other thing, we all accept that the D10/Donna relationship worked fine without any romance angle. But if you think about it, why shouldn’t Donna have fallen for D10 ? Are we saying its only possible for teenagers/young woman to fall for the Doctor ?
Bluesqueakpip is of course correct we can look back to Leela and Susan as BG examples. Given that BG Who didn’t handle companion departures at all well, using either case is difficult to justify rationally. Neither departures made much sense after all.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 08:07 #15518@wolfweed Brilliant cartoon. You are definitely our Finder in Chief!
@blenkinsopthebrave It’s interesting, isn’t it? Also ties in with Sophie Aldred’s interview where she mentions his referencing Hartnell with the hands on the lapels. Moffat has said in recent interviews that they changed it because they wanted to make it more machine like again, and that it was just a change because they could (Hmmm, yes if you so Mr M!) @bluesqueakpip‘s back to the start/rebirth (credit @juniperfish also) theory has moved up my list a bit further (tho still not discounting multiple Doctor arc). And yes, I agree, interviews with PC and SM suggest they’ve been hugging this secret for a lot longer than a few weeks (as we all suspected). Probably from before they announced the commissioning of S8. (Which according to the Moff interview “has an arc”)
@nick Thanks for posting the link to Matt’s appointment. Usual bunch of “I’ll never watch this programme again” along with “he’s MUCH too young” comments (before he’d even been on screen!)
General thoughts – I don’t care what age PC is, I don’t care what age, gender or no the companions are, so long as they can act and they get good scripts/direction. Any (small) disappointment about race/gender is well overcome by them resisting any pressure to go for a young Dr again. It strongly suggests a new direction and a long term plan. It keeps Dr Who as a show that’s prepared to take risks and shake it all up every now and again. PC isn’t a conventional “pretty boy” but he has a great way of using his eyes. If he inhabits the Doctor fully, the fans will follow (except the ARSE ones of course). But his casting could pull in a wider range of new viewers.
@phaseshift Thanks for the links to previous PC biogs – I just think it’s delightful (and rather wonderful) that DW has been in his life so long, acting out the show as a 9yr old. Shame Barry Letts isn’t still with us, hopefully he already knew the influence the show had on steering the young PC into an acting career.
FFS! John Hurt as the, sorry, a Dr in the 50th and Capaldi taking over the TARDIS keys at Christmas (unless they’re lying and Matt regenerates in the 50th!) – that’s impressive casting. In reply to comments about celebrities – PC might not have been one before Sunday night, but he certainly is now! BUT he’s an actor first, and a versatile one at that. Hope he’s coping with the onslaught OK.
My only problem with it – looks like we’ve another YEAR to wait till we see him onscreen properly!
6 August 2013 at 08:09 #15519Regarding PC’s prior career, this article is a must read
A few surprises in there
Nick
6 August 2013 at 08:11 #15520Apologies for repeating your comments – was busy typing when you were posting.
Thanks everyone for comments on the announcement special prog – think I’ll just stick to the edited highlights!
6 August 2013 at 08:16 #15521@nick – my two pence worth is:
I don’t think a genie is out of her bottle with respect to romantic entanglements in the Tardis simply due to RTD and SM. I agree with @jimthefish that there is a general cultural shift to acknowledging that people who work together might be attracted to each other, and that this can be shown on-screen nowadays where in previous decades it was ignored (especially for a whole-family, not simply adult, TV programme).
I don’t think Donna was ‘mates’ with Ten simply because she appeared on screen to be about 5 years older than him. @bluesqueakpip has argued this point quite effectively – she was older than Rose and Martha and had more life experience, so wouldn’t fall under the spell quite so easily of the so-called ‘dashing stranger’. I would add that she met the Doctor then went back and lived her life a while more before meeting him again; and what she did in the interim was mimic his type of work, not moon in her bedroom with a poster of him on the wall.
I’m quite happy to predict that a PC Doctor and Clara will be in paternal / avuncular / mentor mode and there will be no ‘age-inappropriate romantic relationship’ between them. (I do however, hope that kiss in Snowmen is referred to and dealt with, hopefully in a quick joke.)
6 August 2013 at 08:20 #15522Hi @scaryb – you haven’t watched the programme yet? Don’t worry if you haven’t. I watched it after the liveblogging and further comments on this site, and I’m kind of sorry I did. It was so very, very tacky and awful (imo) that it made me feel embarrassed for PC.
6 August 2013 at 08:37 #15523@nick I don’t understand why you’re assuming that the Clara/Capaldi relationship will be problematic. For one thing we have no idea how much of S8 JLC is contracted for. Not sure how much further they can go with her as the Impossible Girl now she knows who she is. For another I think PC’s casting throws up tantalising possiblities for a River return. If they’re looking at BG Who for influence then multiple companions in the TARDIS was the most common.
PC isn’t accidental casting. SM was looking for an older Dr, probably even more since he cast Matt last time, so keen to move away from suggestions of a formula. The writers know they are writing for an older Dr. While it’s completely undestandable that any young girl becoming a companion is going to be completely starstruck by the Dr (charismatic hero, bit naughty, flashy transport etc etc) it doesn’t have to last and it doesn’t have to be reciprocated. While I think it’s clear that the Dr (so far) loves his companions, he’s not “in” love with them.
They’ve done romantic with Rose, unrequited with Martha, “schoolgirl crush” with Amy (which she grows out of as she grows up), bessie mates with Donna. Clara seems to be a mix of crush and mates so far. Why would we not expect them to shake it all up again with a new combination?
I don’t think we know whether River ages as slowly as the Doctor (or how many regenerations she had before she became Alex Kingston alike)
In LKH Mels said she was a child in NYC before her regeneration. Granted we don’t know how many regenerations she had before she was that child, but it was strongly implied that was her first. From Mels she goes to River then gives her remaining regenerations to the Dr. She dies in the Library. But she is still much more of an equal to the Dr because she can time travel independently of him and has an understanding of it on a level which is more like his than human. And she’s self-assured, can look after herself (mostly) and isn’t afraid to challenge him.
6 August 2013 at 08:53 #15524I’m not assuming the Clara/PC relationship will be a problem. In fact I think the opposite will be true for Clara (because her time spent with D11).
My question or contention is that since its now effectively programmed into AG Who that the new young female companion to fancy the Doctor (they all have apart from Donna), how do you deal with that dynamic in the future with PC (or a female Doctor if we ever get one) and the post Clara companion ? Pretend it doesn’t happen ? You can deal with it in the way you describe, but then what happens when we revert to a younger male (or female) Doctor again. Does the romance come back ?
My opinion is that it would have been better to avoided the problem from the outset by making it clear with Rose that any romantic liaison just wasn’t going to happen in the first place, rather than RTD writing the D10/Rose love story and following up it with Series 3 with Doc 10 pining for Rose while Martha pines for him.
The point with River, is that the relationship makes much more sense (they are alike in many ways) from a character narrative unlike any of the previous cases.
Thanks
Nick
6 August 2013 at 08:56 #15525@nick re the sex genie out the bottle – I really don’t see the problem. It only means that there’s a side to relationships which couldn’t be shown on screen in the 60s, 70s (sex wasn’t invented then haha (just had a chuckle at thought of the formidable Mrs Whitehouse still being around now)) but now can be. It doesn’t mean it has to be, or that it has to be shown all the time. It’s not “programmed in”, it’s just another option that’s available if the writers want to use it.
On casting – One thing that’s noticeable is that most of the actors who were suggested (except for the clickbait race/gender articles) conformed pretty much to the Tennant/Smith mould, with the occasional ginger thrown in (He’s still not ginger I note – should gingers be worried? Is this discrimination?!). The final choice suggests that the creative team is MUCH more imaginative than the press (yes, well, talk about stating the obv) and the public. Let’s have a little faith in them! They will be very clear about the potential PR pitfalls of older Dr/young companion in a family show and will write accordingly. They also now have an older Dr to write for, which will have an influence on relationships among other things, but is a clear opportunity to shake things up a bit.
6 August 2013 at 09:06 #15526@nick– that article is a wonderful find. So funny looking back. Really makes me wish I could have seen the faces of a lot of them when they watched TEH.
Does make me think though, in a way it was actually a lot easier for Smith than it will be for Capaldi: almost everyone seems delighted with this casting, while Smith got a barrage of ‘oh he’s about twelve’ ‘ blar blar blar yoof audience’ ‘hur, he’s got stupid hair’, so expectations seem to have been in many cases very low. But Capaldi is expected to be fantastic, and while I’m 100% sure he will be, people seem to love to be disappointed.
One thing though- we do, actually- have someone from an ethnic minority cast as The Doctor. If we disregard the growing, and I think very unpleasant trend of referring to non-Caucasians as ‘ethnics’, one word, which seems to me in many cases to be something adopted by racists who think it’s just the use of no-go hot racist terms that decent people object to in them, and remember sensibly that everyone has an ethnicity, then, with an Irish mother, Italian father, growing up in Scotland, he couldn’t have been much more of an ethnic minority unless he really was an alien.
6 August 2013 at 09:07 #15527Its not discrimination, I’m ginger. Gingers suck 😉
6 August 2013 at 09:15 #15528people seem to love to be disappointed
Don’t they, though!
And thanks for pointing out the misuse of “ethnic”. It’s becoming a deeply unpleasant term as used by certain people. PC, like most of us, is a mix of all sorts of different races (a cultural mosaic/mongrel). Ethnic minority is a relative term in itself eg white causcasians are an ethnic minority in Africa, in fact probably also globally.
6 August 2013 at 09:32 #15529@scaryb– exactly, it carries a kind of assumption that ‘there are white people- and then all these other races’ and I’m starting to find it very disturbing.
On the other hand, I suppose the lack of rioting over the choice of someone with Italian-Irish ancestry, thus post-reformation Catholic stock, and a Scottish accent is evidence of progress in this country. I wish more history was taught frankly. If you could say to people: look how ridiculous your ancestors(/some quite near)’s prejudices seem? Now look at your own.
I think people liked being pleasantly surprised by Smith, but I think with DW backlash is inevitable. In that article, almost universal acclaim for Moffat. Now he seems to be’ the man who is ruining Who’. But I bet his stock raises when the new show runner takes over. If I was him I’d be tempted to step back just to let someone else deal with that flack.
6 August 2013 at 09:48 #15530@miapatrick I’m surprised there hasn’t been a backlash against PC for being Scottish, with accusations of ethnic nepotism being hurled at SM
SM will only be appreciated again when he’s left, as is the way with certain DW fans. The next showrunner will then be immediately accused of “ruining the programme”
6 August 2013 at 09:59 #15531http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/05/peter-capaldi-doctor-who
To some extent you get the opposite opinion here. Ethnic minority means in the UK of course. I think it is a fair question to ask why white male only casting and no females or persons of other skin colour as we live in a different society today than we did when the character was created. I’m not sure there is a satisfactory answer to that question other than to say that is the way the character was created and we’re not ready (creatively) to make such a fundamental change just yet. However, I think its just as valid to ask why should the Doctor be portrayed by an ethnic minority female to counter-point that strain of opinion.
I think the best thing to do is to ignore media and ARSE fan comment. I think its fine to say (for example) SM’s plot arc are too opaque and not properly developed in my opinion and have a debate, but we live in a shouty extrovert media world right now where its become the norm to shout your opinions as fact, simplify and exaggerate (if not down right lie) shout down and intimidate people with different opinions (they’re opponents after all).
Nick
6 August 2013 at 10:02 #15532re @miapatrick‘s comment re lack of backlash re PC’s ethnicity, there has been a notable number of outright ageist comments. Which is part of the reason I love that they’ve gone for someone who is likely to be very different from previous AG Doctors, and who doesn’t conform to the conventional leading man look. Change, and challenging expectations, is what the programme’s about.
@nick Non-white, non-male will come in due course, when the right actor and script appears. Meanwhile I don’t have a problem with it so long as there is not just genuine colour- (& gender- when they can) blind casting, but that they ensure they go out of their way to encourage actors (and writers) from every background to apply for DW. And agree, debate over mindless moans every time.
BTW Whoever suggested Eddie Izzard as the Master is a genius!
6 August 2013 at 10:23 #15533@nick– while I’d say that when DW who created I highly doubt they would have cast a Peter Capaldi, I would also say that although I disagree with the arguments against casting a female doctor, I can not for a moment accept any arguments against casting a non-white doctor.
I really hope he kept the accent. It would underline the ‘Brittishness’ of the Doctor over the ‘Englishness’ of him. And I think that would be a good step. Rita in TGC was British. British is a much broader concept, not entirely logically, but my mothers Welsh so I prefer the term anyway. And no, it’s not logical to have him constantly regenerate with the accent of someone from a really quite small island on Earth, but regularly switch regional accents, unless we decide he’s picking them from his companions. Having an actor with a foreign surname in the role is, I think a step forward. I’d be depressed that it’s such a relatively small step, only I really do think he’ll be great, and it would be very hard to suggest he got the role for anything other than his acting abilities and ‘full anorak’ love of Who.
@scaryb– yes, true. 55 is hardly decrepit. So Smith was ‘too young’, Capaldi was ‘too old’. I liked watching that TB who, and noticing how little running about he did. Surely the frantic action scenes can be the companions job? Especially when Capaldi is following the Gallifrayan pin-ball that was Eleven. (Not because I don’t think 55 year olds can run. But I think older Doctor is a chance for a change of pace.) The way people have wittered on about his age makes me think a lot of people must shamefully neglect their poor parents.
6 August 2013 at 11:09 #15534@scaryb — I agree that SM will only really be fully appreciated after he moves on. And also that there’s a threat that all this universal acclaim now will lead to a backlash against PC in the future. I hope not and when you look back at his body of work, there’s really not what you’d call a disappointing or bad performance in there…
I do wonder though if we’re looking at another ‘short run’ Doctor here a la Eccleston. He’s an incredibly accomplished man in a lot of different fields and clearly has a lot of diverse interests. I just wonder if he won’t find the all-consuming job of ‘being the Doctor’ (and all its attendant glare and baggage) a little constricting after a while. But then again, he is a seriously long-term fan so maybe this is his dream job. But there is an awful lot more BS attached to being the Doc these days. And I’m sure I could detect a slight air of ‘Christ, what have I done?’ in his face amid all the hoo-haa on Sunday night.
Oh, and a definite yes to Bing Hitler as the Master….
6 August 2013 at 11:24 #15535(because its a load of codswallop really)
You’re watching a programme about a time travelling alien in a police box and you’ve only just noticed? But River’s conception is a very soft SF extrapolation of a hard science fact – certain types of radiation affect a foetus. The Doctor doesn’t realise this because he hasn’t consciously connected his own genetics with a constant exposure to the radiations associated with the Time Vortex.
You’re going around in circles with this one. Paraphrasing what I’m getting: ‘I don’t like human TimeLord sex, therefore neither departure made much sense.’ Which is another way of saying that you don’t like the evidence, and so will ignore it. 😉
Leela’s departure didn’t make much sense. Even the actors concerned were going ‘where the *!@% is this in the script!’ But Susan’s departure makes so much sense that the Asexual Doctor Preservation Society generally insist she isn’t really his granddaughter – even going so far as to fail to spot Susan going into the TARDIS in The Name of The Doctor. 😈
What does this mean for the Next Doctor? (getting back on topic)
If they’re going back to Hartnell, the Doctor’s going to be more aware of his comparative age, and is more likely to mentor his Companions than fancy them. The Hartnell pattern with Companions was a female-male pairing, where any longing gazes were likely to be directed to their fellow Companion. There’s various versions of the fate of Ben and Polly, for example, but they generally end up with their getting together.
What might help is if River’s still around. The Smith Doctor clearly saw himself as a widower in the last part of S7; the Capaldi Doctor might not. Or he might; one of the undercurrents to the Hartnell Doctor was that he and his granddaughter had lost everything; ‘displaced persons’ (nowadays referred to as refugees) were very common in 1963.
The reason I’m saying ‘it might help’ is that @jimthefish is right – kids today expect adults to be paired up. Or in the process of pairing up. But they will get ‘my wife is in a different time zone/living in a Virtual Reality Database.’
6 August 2013 at 11:26 #15536Peter Capaldi at 55 is a Dr Who fan. How many other fans are of his generation? A fair few I’d guess. (I’m almost one of them.) I loved Matt Smith’s Doctor, I loved Hartnell’s doctor when I was considerably younger than I am now. People, especially “arses” make big issues of irrevelvant details. Age does not matter. All that matters in the end is performance as Matt Smith proved to all those who feared he was “too young”. The real question is “how long will be stay.” I hope that having an established career means that is his willing to commit for a reasonable length of time. I should not grumble about three years but it still seems to me as though M.S. has only just settled into the role and needs at least one more year to mature.
There have been so many wonderful links posted that I can’t thank all the posters in name though thanks are sent, but I must mention @nick‘s link because it included that brilliant scene from The Hour and saved me going through the entire series to find it to show my family. Anna Chancellor for the Master/mistress or even as a future Doctor?
As to sexual relationships in the series. I disliked the “elephant in the room” feel of BG Who and other series of the time where relationships were taboo but nor do I like the shoehorning in of sexual relationships which marred the Rose/Doctor and Martha/Doctor relationships. Donna made it clear that she wasn’t interested and I never thought that was due to her age, especially as it was during her time as a Tardis travellor that he met River who was older than her. (A.K. turns 50 this year too. A good vintage!! Just wish I looked as good as she does..) I attributed that to Donna’s personality and the realisation that too much romance turns the series into soap opera. (I really dislike claims that any romance= soap opera) however when the Doctor starts falling in love with every attractive woman who crosses his path it does get that feel. The occasional flirtation or hint of deeper feeling is fine and has the more impact by being “occasional”. After all any romance involving the Doctor should reflect the fact that he is a 1,000 + alien, something I felt that Rose forgot but was essential to his relationship with River. Re the other Time Lord/human relationships I don’t think age was a factor. Susan was young, probably comparable in age to David Campbell. Though the writing out of Leela was so badly written that the script writers later felt the need to apologise for it, there was no clear disparity of age between Leela and Andred. It was implied that he was young, on his first regeneration if mere citadel guards are even permitted to regenerate. It has never been made clear if regeneration is the exclusive right of Time Lords or the natural ability of all citizens of Gallifrey, assuming too that there is a distinction between the former and the later.
Now I have rambled on to much. Apologies. (Blame the rambling, typos and spelling errors on the excellent Barossa Shiraz..:)”
cheers
Janette
6 August 2013 at 11:33 #15537I’m not so sure that 1960’s or 70’s production teams wouldn’t have hired Peter Capaldi if he had existed at the time. I think its more pertinent to say that he almost certainly wouldn’t have become an actor given where he was born (in what would have been 1910 to 1920). Just look at William Hartnell’s early life (its more Capaldi-esque than you might think) and consider would he have been able to achieve what he did today ?
I think the particular change you are referring to comes about post 1945 and the rapid widening/development of British society that’s happened since then. I for example was born in a smallish manufacturing town in 1965 and was the first generation of my family (along with some cousins) to have gone to University, and even then was in a small minority of school friends who did so. In fact I fear we have rather gone backwards as a society since then, but that’s a different discussion.
@scaryb as well
I think commentators have rather forgotten just how much British society has changed in the last 50 years. In the 1960s we were a very racist, very sexist and very homophobic society. Today we are considerable less racist, less sexist and less homophobic, even if we still have a long way to go on those fronts. I saw an interesting documentary that claimed any society needed three generations (what roughly 75 years) to thoroughly change its state. I think this is broadly right and that we are only 2/3 of our way the thorough modernisation we are undertaking (and we’re ahead of much of Europe and probably the US on that journey). Certain commentators, let’s call some of them feminists, would like Who to be on the cutting edge of that change process and can’t see why we shouldn’t have a female and/or different coloured actor play the lead part. For others (SM himself maybe) it doesn’t feel right. I am not entirely sure I would like to see a female Doctor, but I cant provide any credible reason for that opinion. On reflection I would rather have liked SM to have challenged my pre-conceptions of what would work (and actually prefer that to some of the other things he dropped I !).
@jimthefish as well
I rather think there will be something of a backlash against PC in the next 18 months as I rather suspect he will emphasize some elements of the Doctor’s character he sees in previously portraits and add his own component in a way that some of us won’t like (ignoring the ARSEs who will always find something they don’t like). But unless he really hates the shooting schedule and the other BS which comes with the role then I think he’ll be around for at least two seasons, if not three.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 11:34 #15538@jimthefish– though to be fair the announcement show was pretty cringe-worthy. I think he was the only one presently connected to Who who even turned up- I’ve decided to think that the whole thing was more BBC than Who, really.
It would set a bit of a pattern if he is short term- Eccles was better known, Tennant and Smith (relatively) obscure. All the fuss that surrounds the role might be more bearable if it’s what’s launching your career. On the other hand, taking on two roles that threaten to type-cast you- Tucker and the Doctor- might cancel each other out, so arguably he has less to lose.
Backlash is probably inevitable, I think Moffat will get most of the flack, though. ‘Go a brilliant actor but still managed to fuck it up’ ‘would have been perfect, if he’d had decent scripts/storylines/companions/dalek designs- people are already pretty much saying this and he hasn’t even started yet.
6 August 2013 at 11:37 #15539@nick @bluesqueakpip @jimthefish @Shazzbot (and others!)
It seems a lot of people are forgetting that the Doctor is the same age, it’s just the actor that has got older!All these conversations about a companion’s relationships with the Doctor are no more strange now than they were 49 years ago. I, for one, found it really odd that the Doctor would fall for Rose but when you are a Lord of Time age really is just a number. People fall in love with people. Simple as.
As far as I’m concerned, River was the love of the Doctor’s life. He’s already been married with kids before he stole the Tardis and he’s had that weird relationship with Rose and the Girl in the Fireplace. I think he’s probably had quite enough of “love” for the time being.
In regards to Donna’s relationship with him, I think she expressed it well enough herself,
The Doctor: The last time, with Martha, it got complicated. And that was all my fault. I just want a mate.
Donna Noble: You just want to mate?
The Doctor: I just want *a* mate!
Donna Noble: You’re not matin’ with me Sunshine!
The Doctor: A mate! I want *a* mate!
Donna Noble: Well, just as well, because I’m not having any of that nonsense! I mean, you’re just a long streak of nothing, y’know, alien nothing!edit: just seen @miapatrick has managed to post similar sentiments before I could!
6 August 2013 at 11:47 #15540@thommck– it is interesting that people are more bothered about a physically visible age gap than the fact he really is ancient.
And I agree both about River and Donna.
Catherine Tate, incidentally, was a wonderfully surprising casting result. I get the feeling that her original casting was one of those one-off someone quite well known things (see Kyle and I forget her name, eastenders and Bionic woman) but then they saw how much more potential she had. I wish Donna could come back 🙁
6 August 2013 at 11:51 #15541Regarding the ginger – I think red hair is slightly less than 6% in England, higher in Scotland and Wales. So while we need a ginger Doctor in the next few regenerations, the fact that they haven’t yet found a Ginger Doctor isn’t definite evidence of Gingerism. 😀
Likewise, ethnic minority. As @scaryb‘s pointed out, Peter Capaldi would have been considered ‘ethnic minority’ back when the programme started – he’s of part Italian descent. Nowadays, the son of an Italian ice cream seller is apparently considered ‘white middle-class’. To which I say, thank God things have moved on at least that much. 😕
6 August 2013 at 11:57 #15542@bluesqueakpip It was actually @miapatrick who first pointed out about PC’s ethnicity (I just developed it a bit). But yes agree with your point
Miapatrick said “@thommck– it is interesting that people are more bothered about a physically visible age gap than the fact he really is ancient”
I concur completely.
6 August 2013 at 12:02 #15543He’s not “people” though. It’s like saying you could fall in romantic love with a Dolphin 🙂 Otherwise I’ll shut up on that topic.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 12:04 #15544@miapatrick and @thommck –
it is interesting that people are more bothered about a physically visible age gap than the fact he really is ancient.
I think that’s the difference between ‘show’ and ‘tell’. We can see the actor’s physical age, we’re told that he’s ancient. The instinctive reaction is to the apparent age; we’re programmed to judge age by appearance.
6 August 2013 at 12:05 #15545It’s like saying you could fall in romantic love with a Dolphin
I can see you’ve led a sheltered life…
😈
6 August 2013 at 12:12 #15546@nick I counted aliens as a “person”. I’m sure a TimeLord, or any of the more evolutionarily advanced aliens could have a romantic relationship with a sentient dolphin. Have you not met Captain Jack?
6 August 2013 at 12:14 #15547Certainly have when it comes to that sort of behavior 🙂 At least we might be getting the Paternoster gang as companions is Series 8. That should be interesting I think.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 12:15 #155486 August 2013 at 12:19 #15549@nick @thommck– yes I think sentience is the thing. But perhaps also more acceptable between humanoids (what a human-centric term!) interspecies breeding has occurred in the human past, I think? We just happen to be the only humanoid species on earth at the moment.
It’s like Madam Vastra and Jenny- from one point of view its a relationship between an ape and a lizard. But it’s really a relationship between two sentient, up-right walking humanoids with opposable thumbs and verbal communication, who evolved on earth.
(Captain Jack doesn’t count. That’s because he lost count a long, long time ago. ;))
6 August 2013 at 12:30 #15550@nick, @miapatrick and others
I think the salient point, which I believe was mentioned above somewhere, is that Susan/David Campbell, Leela/Andred and perhaps the Doctor’s parents (depending on how canonical you make the TV movie) proves that Gallifreyans and humans can form romantic and sexual attachments. The only questions really are should they want to and how much should we dwelling on it onscreen.
And, yes, to all those who argued that PC’s casting suggests that the return of River would make a lot of sense, even on a part-time basis.
6 August 2013 at 12:51 #15551@jimthefish– on the whole I think Moffat has tried to avoid the girlfriend-companion thing. Rose flirting with Captain Jack, Martha looking less mooney then she ever does in Blink, Ten swooning over MdP, Eleven arranging a romantic trip for Amy with her fiancé after she makes a lunge for him, River refusing to travel with Eleven full time.
River might quite like seeing her husband when he isn’t ‘insisting on the face of a ten year old boy’ (or something like that. Thinking about it, quite a nice snap back at all the initial responses to Smiths casting!)
6 August 2013 at 12:52 #15552There may have been (in some opinions its a certainty) interbreeding on a small scale between Homo Sapiens Neaderthalensis and Homo Sapiens Sapiens, but if it did happen it would have been between two versions of essentially the same species or between two very closely related species.
Whilst I don’t conceptually discount any close relationships between Humans and sentient non-Humans, the creation of viable cross specie hybrids would probably be impossibly difficult outside a laboratory. The laboratory creation of a pig/human hybrid as envisaged in Daleks of Manhatten for example will probably be possible eventually as we share elements of DNA in common (and that’s why we might be able to bring back wooly mammoths before then). With Aliens who knows ? One might assume the chemistry around life (RNA/DNA etc) might be quite similar, but if the chirality for example was different (we have right handed spiraling DNA, so that would be with a species with a left handed spiral in the chemical structure) I guess it might be impossible anyway.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 12:59 #15553We’ll see next summer I guess whether River will be back or not. I rather thought the way the River/Doctor departure was handled would count against anything happening soon, but I guess you can argue that she was saying goodbye to 11 rather than the Doctor.
Nick
6 August 2013 at 13:00 #15554@nick– though of course in Vastra and Jenny’s marriage, interbreeding isn’t an issue… arguably, now that same sex marriages are going to be legal (damn I have to buy my sister another present…) the breeding angle is no longer a defining aspect of marriage.
At the same time, River’s story now strongly implies that Timelord DNA is very like human DNA that’s been mutated by exposure to the Tardis. Which I suppose is a separate issue.
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