Forum Replies Created
31 December 2013 at 18:34 #23738
@Wisht – seconding @geoffers, I took that to be a step-mum (or potential step-mum). Rather ties in with the idea raised on here last week of Clara as the fairytale princess, waiting for the hero to ride in and save her*. From a tower (block). And a wicked stepmother!
*Apologies to whoever pointed that out, I can’t find the relevant post at the moment.
@arkleseizure – bet you can’t say Thirteen Theta Sigmas thirteen times fast!31 December 2013 at 15:24 #23713
I guess if they could send the energy through the crack why couldn’t they have just gone through the crack themselves?
Perhaps they could have, but they knew it wasn’t safe to do so – hence calling for the Doctor. He’s their man on the outside, waiting to let them know when it’s safe to come out. This does suggest that the saner elements of TimeLord society are in control for the moment, because the High Council we saw in The End of Time would have no compunction about storming straight through, even if it did lead to a resumption of the Time War.
I think the whole bubble universe solution to the TimeLords is rather neat. On my wish list for the anniversary was to remove the Lonely God shtick, but as @phaseshift explained so well in his blog http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/sidrat/time-lords-time-locked-and-im-loving-it/ having the TimeLords back wouldn’t be an improvement. This 3rd way neatly side steps both issues and as @bluesqueakpip points out, offers the opportunity for TimeLords to be in stories if the writer desires while having them out of the way the rest of the time. I’d be very very surprised if we see them merged back into the universe proper anytime soon. It’s just a vague motivation for the Doctor in the same way that getting away from them was for the first 50 years (well, 26 at any rate.)
Oh, and the Dalek problem. I presume there’s some reason Mr Moffat effectively went ‘ah, oops, no, I can’t have the Daleks forget the Doctor…’
Yeah, that jumped out at me too, but I guess it ties with the Cyber Controller saying he could be rebuilt from the gaps, River telling him he shouldn’t hide from the universe (or something on those lines) and with the memory themes of the last year – the Doctor finally accepting that he shouldn’t forget his own past mirrored by an acceptance that he can’t make the universe forget him.31 December 2013 at 12:56 #23698
@scaryb, @Juniperfish –
Glad to see staffing concerns have been addressed! Could be useful come kick out time too although I was also disturbed by the domesticity of a Dalek (in fact it’s a shame that episode is mostly remembered for the iDaleks – seeing them being onside was extremely disconcerting and a good concept for a story)
Are Boston Dynamic the ones that Google have just acquired? Just don’t call them SkyNet… 😉
Happy 1st birthday to the forum, and happy new year to all who write in her!30 December 2013 at 19:20 #23671
one section of the bar could be stretched to make room for a barista
Having worked in several bars around the world, while I’m all in favour of people bobbing in for a coffee in the morning and afternoon, I can honestly say there is a special layer of hell reserved for folk who think it’s sensible to order a bloody cappuccino* in a crowded bar at 10 o’clock at night. So I will only accept your space on the bar for a Barista, if it comes with a big CLOSED sign to be employed as soon as is socially acceptable to return to drunken normality.
*we always just gave them a latte with a little froth on top. No one – not one person – ever noticed.30 December 2013 at 19:08 #23670
I went on a school trip to Blists Hill museum when I was 10. Did you get chance to go to the Tar Tunnel at Coalport? It’s normally lit by electric lights but they allowed us to go down with candles (this was long before ‘Health & Safety’ came along and ruined all the fun). Very spooky!
We didn’t go this time, but I did that as a kid as well – if I remember right, they took us in with the electric lights, but then turned them off and gave us candles with an inadequate bit of foil to hold them in when we got further down. I reckon that they only had the lights off for a minute or two but at the time, it seemed forever!
The joys of a childhood with Guardian reading teachers for parents. Had no appreciation at the time for being dragged to castles, museums, mines and the like but now willingly going to the same places as an adult and reminiscing. Youth, wasted on the young. Etc etc.30 December 2013 at 18:55 #23669
Hello all, hope you had a lovely Christmas.
Having spent most of the year disappointed with the limited amount of ‘Who on TV, I’ve ended the year feeling rather spoiled. That was a lovely end to Matt Smith’s tenure and he really is leaving me wanting more. Personally, I think the consistency and quality of the last 3 years have set a high watermark that we’ll be harking back to for years.
There seems to have been something about this years episodes that really get under the skin – almost haunting in some cases. Rings for example was an episode that I enjoyed but didn’t rave about after the first viewing, yet it’s the episode I’ve rewatched more than any other from series 7b and have loved more with each viewing. I think when the worst criticism that can be fielded at most of this years run is that there wasn’t enough time to fully explore all the ideas and concepts crammed within an episode, we are lucky indeed.
That seems especially true of the ToTD. At the end of the episode – as others have mentioned – it almost felt as if not much had happened, but had not happened in a lovely way. And then I started thinking about what had happened and there was a lot of ground covered. I think the elements with Clara’s family perhaps suffered from a lack of space and jarred slightly with the rest of the episode, but also rounded out her character well I thought. I finally feel that we’re getting to know Clara, rather than trying to unravel a mystery but still think her family will be explored more in the future – introducing them here was the first shoots of a new thread I suspect. I’m going for Gran as an aged chameleon-arched Susan. Because I can’t let go of a good theory 😉
I was a little surprised that I was not moved more on first viewing – I guess after The End of Time, I was steeled for the emotional wringer but it had greater subtlety this time around. Amelia and Amy appearing of course, and that bowtie hitting the floor got me. But on my subsequent view, it was D11 and Clara’s last moments together as she read the poem and he thanked his impossible girl that really choked me – again, it was emphasizing Clara as a valued companion and friend, rather than a puzzle. And the Doctor was not alone at the end.
Time was the only thing that could do for the Doctor come the end. Utterly appropriate, the one thing the TimeLord cannot fight. No enemy could ever fire that shot, no fall from a tower would have felt as anything other than a convenient device. I loved the nods to Hartnell in Matt Smith’s aging make up – one day, he will return indeed. I also loved the attempt at one last grandstanding speech, that he didn’t quite have the strength for – and ended up all the more powerful as a consequence. Talked for a while, something happened, he got the credit… just as he said he would!
I’ll admit to having concerns beforehand about solving the regeneration issue by granting another cycle, mainly because it’s kicking the issue down the road. But it makes sense in universe, and made perfect sense for the TimeLords to keep their man on the outside going. And frankly, by the time it becomes an issue again, I’ll be needing my own new cycle.
I thought Orla Brady was fantastic, but Tasha Lem suffered from a lack of background. I do wonder if that was deliberate to give us something to ponder over the next few months. Tasha to River, River to Clara, genuine connections or just teases? Steven Moffat said at the ExCel Celebration that he thought River’s story was done. Of course, SM lies but I think on this occasion there was a truth there – I’m guessing we won’t be seeing Alex Kingston again. Expanding her story through other characters though? I wouldn’t put that past him.
While I’m on Steven Moffat ExCel quotes, he said something along the lines of that there is only one reason the show has broken America, that it was able to do a global simulcast, that it has never been more loved or profitable – and that reason is Matt Smith. Which seems as good a way as any of rounding off and saying thanks Matt, it’s been a blast. And you’re threatening McCoy for my number one spot.16 December 2013 at 18:35 #22915
@craig – hope you’re well. Having been limited to -at most – once daily lurking of late, I’ve been more reliant than normal on the Activity feed. Not sure if you’ve ever noticed, but sometimes when you click ‘Load More’ it loads entries from above the point that you’re at, so you’ll have a message from say 9 hours ago, press load more, and then the next message that appears is only from 2 hours ago. It always occurs on my mobile, but has happened on desktop as well (although I couldn’t replicate this afternoon). It seems to be when you get to the 2nd or 3rd load more it starts getting confused.
Not in any way a biggy or any kind of priority, just thought I’d let you know. I’m trying to catch up with the forums and blogs directly anyway which avoids the issue.
All the best, OH16 December 2013 at 18:25 #22910
@rob et al
I have a cafetiere and a kettle but NO BLOODY COFFEE. Life is unfair. Given all this talk, is the pub getting closed and replaced with a coffee shop? That’s very 21st century Britain!
Would it be inappropriate to say ‘Thanks for sticking your head above the parapet’? I’ll get my coat. No, seriously, cheers – I’m more lurker than poster at the mo but appreciate the work of all the mods none the less.16 December 2013 at 18:18 #22908
Recently been back to Victorian England (admittedly, only courtesy of the open air Blists Hill living museum in Ironbridge) but sadly the barmaid was no Clara. For one thing, he had a beard.
But other than that, RL has been largely nose to the keyboard, so haven’t had chance to do anything other than brief lurking of late. Just wanted to pop in and wish you all seasons best. Still haven’t even had chance to rewatch the 50th – hanging up my Whovian credentials in shame 🙁
Hello to @purofilion, @TheFerret, @MartyB, @devilishrobby, @arbutus and all the other new members who’s names have escaped me for the moment. Been enjoying reading your contributions, hopefully will have more time to interact in the new year.
All the best OH25 November 2013 at 20:20 #21589
Well, the only word I can think of for that weekend is ace. Which would have made me cool and hip in the early 90’s. Haven’t had chance to re-watch the episode yet, having only escaped the clutches of the South late last night and initial viewing was on a dodgy 14 inch in a Days Inn half way down the M1, so need to rewatch to collect my thoughts.
On first viewing, I was amazed at how well it lived up to the hype, reverential but told it’s own story, moved the show forwards and for the second time in a week, made me regret a Doctor we’ll never get to see more episodes of – not sure I’d want to see any more of the Time War, but I’d happily pay to see John Hurt playing the Doctor some more. ‘Oh for Gods sake…’ loved it. Twas ace.
Sunday at the Excel, fab day out. Sylvester McCoy was delightful (he’s my Doctor, I’m biased, but given it was there 6th panel in 3 days, he was still so full of beans) and seeing Matt Smith asking Jenna Colman to take pictures of him with the Moff in front of the crowd was touching – hit home that this was the last time he’d be doing anything like that as the current Doctor. I’ve loved his run and he’s leaving me wanting more at any rate.
Two amusing examples of ARSE in the crowd – a lad in a 6th Doctor jacket getting a proper sulk on (arms waving and everything) because he wasn’t picked during the costume contest in the special effects panel, and a girl asking Matt Smith “If you knew you were leaving after a half series and a couple of specials, why did you bother changing your costume?” [because he fancied a change essentially]
The ninja toddler is now pointing any image of a TARDIS, a Dalek, the show’s logo or Matt Smith and shouting Doct-Oooh. He was attacking me with toy Daleks this morning. Mission accomplished – corrupted and he’s not yet two 😉25 November 2013 at 19:58 #21585
It couldn’t be our @Shazzbot could it?
You know, that entire paragraph went right over my head because of the end of the article (suggesting that Peter Capaldi would be The Doctor from Saturday onwards) – really thought that I’d spent all week being hyper careful to avoid spoilers, only for the Graun to bloody ruin it! Fortunately, not to be.
@Shazzbot, if you must go cavorting with journos, can you at least insist on proof reading before they go causing mild panic in the Hatter household!?22 November 2013 at 22:16 #21180
Just a warning. I’ve just read a Zoe Williams piece in the Grauniad about the ExCel celebration. The last paragraph may be a cock up or a major spoiler. I suspect cock up, but recommend avoiding it til Saturday evening to be on the safe side.22 November 2013 at 21:35 #21178
@wolfweed – scotch and jelly babies. I’d like to say in tribute to the previous and next Doctors, but basically because I like scotch, scotchy scotch scotch.
I may break out the custard later. No fish fingers though. Unless I get really drunk.20 November 2013 at 23:04 #21055
@pedant – apparently, I’m The Defender, the Mrs is The Rogue and the little ‘un is The General. Which sums up our family dynamic rather well.
@all – all ready for Friday night, got a nice bottle of Talisker on stand by 🙂 To reiterate @whohar earlier today, see ya all (virtually) there – staying fairly Internet dark in the mean time for fear of spoiler.12 November 2013 at 19:37 #2058412 November 2013 at 19:31 #20583
@Shazzbot – cheers. Would love to be there in spirit via my avatar. Actually, would love to be there in spirits, but not to be!
my low res version will perfectly represent my low res observational ability so please use the one you have 🙂11 November 2013 at 19:01 #20540
Linking to this here to be on the safe side. Interview with MS and JC from 6 months ago that Den of Geek have re-released. Nothing particularly spoilery, but they’ve used the pictures that have been released recently.11 November 2013 at 16:35 #20533
The soufflé isn’t the soufflé. The soufflé is the recipe.
I wonder if it means ‘Clara isn’t the Clara. ‘Clara’ is a recipe.’
That is, Clara-from-Blackpool isn’t the original template. And the original template was created, like a recipe.
I like your thinking on this, it’s a line that bothered me from the first time I watched the episode. I thought it was a reference to the GI – he’s just a recipe, an idea that can be duplicated (he creates hollow personifications of himself.) It never quite fit though, because the GI can create perfect copies but the soufflé references are always about the failure to replicate the recipe perfectly.
So, taking your substitution of Clara for soufflé instead, I’d propose:
The Claricles aren’t Clara-from-Blackpool. Clara-from-Blackpool is a recipe.
i.e. Clara-from-Blackpool is the original (as made by her mum). But however many times that ‘recipe’ is attempted again, they’re never quite the same. i.e. each Claricle will be a little different. Which could pose the question, did any of the attempts to cook a Clara go properly wrong?8 November 2013 at 21:41 #20298
some fab ideas above which I’ll come back to, but just wanted to jot down a few guesses about the anniversary special before the trailer comes along and warps my mind again!
– the Hurt Doctor will be redeemed. But he won’t gain a number. He’s from a closed timeline. This may foreshadow the doctor’s entire line ending by looping back to the beginning – this version of the doctors timeline is ending at Doc 11, at trenzalore (900 years in one day theory, can’t remember who’s it was but you’ve convinced me!)
– The episodes will be more about beginnings than endings, so I think the start of the time war will feature more than the end. The HurtDoctor’s failing will be to do with participation, rather than with the ending of the war. That said, I don’t think the war will feature largely.
– We’ll see why the Doctor left Gallifrey. We may also see that he’s gone through this loop of leaving, living for hundreds of years and returning before.
– The time lock won’t be removed, although there may be a reset so far back in the doctors history that the time war has never happened, the time lords have not had chance to become who we know them to be etc.
– bit of a long shot this, but I don’t think we’re going to get D10 and Rose together immediately, I think they’re going to join the story at separate times.
– Clara will fill Susan’s role in helping the Doc flee Gallifrey but she won’t be Susan. Her backstory may involve Ellie being a rescued child of Gallifrey though – but that will be for next year, not the special.)
Apologies for typos, my phone is proving less than useful!5 November 2013 at 14:33 #20077
I now give you something that has been hiding in plain sight on the poster for the 50th…”Bad Wolf” painted on what looks to be the tiled walls of the London Underground.
I got nothing logical, so to give you something illogical – the HurtDoctor isn’t Doctor 0, 8.5, 12 or any other. He’s 9. An alternative version of 9, caused by 8 dying at a different point in time. The Bad Wolf events still played out with the HurtDoctor as the 9th Doctor but without Rose and in different locations.
Events are changed disastrously, when the Dalek invasion originally seen in the Parting of the Ways results in the HurtDoctor (with no Rose) using the Delta Wave, destroying the Dalek fleet and the TARDIS which in turn scatters Bad Wolf as a warning through time. Without the safety of the TARDIS, the injured HurtDoctor/Alt9 has to retreat into his own timeline as a method of survival. The HurtDoctor must now work with 10 and 11 to correct the timeline to ensure the correct version of 9 lives and that 10 and 11 can come into being, even though this means he will cease to exist.
There’s more holes in that than in the average troll after meeting @shazzbot ‘s shotgun. So, alternatively, it’s a left over from a previously un-televised Rose – D9 adventure that Rose will pay lip service to when seeing the graffiti again. But that’s far duller.1 November 2013 at 22:28 #19853
@whisht – both a delightfully bonkers theory and a wonderful delivery of said.
I will be peering in on the 22nd, sadly Mrs Hatter has been trying and failing to get out of work so we can make a weekend of it, but instead we’re having to make a mad dash for the south on saturday night when she finishes – and trying to get to our hotel in time for the anniversary, something that would be a damn sight easier to plan if we had a confirmed broadcast time (I’m assuming 7:30 but everything seems very vague at the moment.)1 November 2013 at 21:31 #19845
@craig – just to mirror the comments above, the black header was a lovely touch. Understated but respectful. I think this week has shown why this is such a special website, a community, not a fansite. I hope yourself and @Shazzbot are doing ok. I can’t claim to have had many exchanges with @htpbdet but I’ve found myself glancing up at the stars a few times this week.29 October 2013 at 17:26 #19536
I’m truly sorry to hear such sad news. My thoughts are with @htpbdet ‘s family. I’m glad he got to see his son and that McGann boy get hitched and best wishes to the both of them. I hope today’s posts provide them all with some insight into the respect, admiration and affection which those of us on this site held for him.
@htpbdet, your insight, patience, knowledge and enthusiasm will be sorely missed. Your writing has been a pleasure and an honour to read and I’d like to thank you one last time for sharing your story with us. Rest in peace.28 October 2013 at 12:22 #19452
Also if D10 alters the future then D11 wouldn’t need to go and find him (presumably) which means that D10 doesn’t then alter the future which means that D11 then does have to go and find him (presumably) etc. etc.
Then again, time isn’t a strict progression of cause and effect, is it?
Not in this show! I think it depends on what the change outcome is. It may have be getting the key to moving past Trenazlore – so D10 would never have known what was needed or what worked, but D11 having been there, now recognises something he needs. D11 could still end up crossing D10’s path again, but everything is subtly different each time round. We only get to follow the universe where the Doctor’s story continues.
To steal from Terry Pratchett:
‘We used to think time was like a river, we could row up and down and come back to the same place. Then we found it acted like a sea, so you could go from side to side as well. Then it turned out to be a big ball of water; you could go up and down too. Currently we think it’s like … oh, lots of spaces, all rolled up. And then there are time jumps and time slips and humans mess it up too, wasting it and gaining it. And then there’s quantum, of course.’ The monk sighed. ‘There’s always bloody quantum. So what with one thing and another, we think we’re doing quite well if yesterday happens before tomorrow, quite frankly’
Night Watch is a lovely telling of going back and crossing your own timeline.
Those TL’s with their head in their hands always reminded me – by their pose – of Weeping Angels.
I’m sure I read a theory on here about weeping angels being the physical shells of time lords who’d been uploaded to the matrix? Like it though, and as @scaryb says, it’s something that could be left on the back burner for years to come.
Always felt those bowed Time Lords were a plot line that needed some exploration in the End of Time specials, they seemed too tied to that plot to leave hanging.24 October 2013 at 21:13 #19236
@blenkinsopthebrave – a lovely summation of everything that is good about this site. Personally, I used to lurk regularly on the Guardian blogs, usually too late to the conversation to join in. However, the one word summations and the ‘Steven Moffat ate my childhood’ attitude of some really detracted from the insight, analysis and enthusiasm provided by those of you who @craig made this site for, so my lurking quickly migrated.
I was a little wary joining in – almost as if I was intruding on a private conversation – but was made to feel very welcome. The ‘core’ users do a fab job of drawing new members in (and keeping trolls out!) I wonder though, if polls were available, whether I’d have used them purely as a way of expressing my thoughts, and not taken the next step in contributing. I hope not, because I enjoy inflicting my inane ramblings on you all and I worry that polls would inadvertently be a barrier to others taking that same step.
I can see that it would be interesting to consider the different theories about possible themes of the 50th – the identity of the HurtDoctor, the involvement of the Time War, the significance of the Policeman, the possibility or type of reset etc etc – and see if the hive mind of the site can predict what it thinks will happen (or would like to happen) in the anniversary special.
It would have to be done in a way that promotes consideration though, perhaps rating contrasting ideas on most to least likely rather than just straight questions. However, by its nature, that type of poll would have to be the exception, rather than a weekly feature, so I’m not sure the development required would be justified by the use. In the end, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it and this site is far from broken.23 October 2013 at 19:59 #19162
In a way, such a resolution would tie into my 4th wall theory. As the show (and the Doctor) goes forward, it is in a unverse where the previous Doctors never existed, but one where they exist in our (ie, the audience’s) memories, and survive (like the lost episodes) as memories.
I was only looping back about 5 years – this does the full 50! Suitably bonkers, possibly a goer for resetting the show for the next 50 years. Would have to be very well done though to avoid making it feel like a ‘and it was all a dream’ cop out, as @timeloop says, it could have the potential for really annoying people.
Likewise I feel the Hurt Doctor could be the one referenced by the GI, particularly if he has traveled in his own time line and been involved in other battles. If the Doctor is now stuck only being able to go anywhere in his own time stream (from Gallifrey to Trenzalore) it could explain why it appeared to be D11’s TARDIS used as the tomb.
The Eccleston Doctor is facing all the earlier Doctors, as if he’s either holding them back or is horrified by what’s happened to them. The Tennant Doctor is very much in a ‘you want to get to the Smith Doctor, chum? Get past me first’ pose. And the Smith Doctor is the only one in the whole thing who we see moving.
I like this. Sure there’s a theory in there… food for thought and doesn’t rely on positioning the hurt doctor anywhere 😉 Think the Smith Doctor moving is a reference to moving through the timestream, the only Doctor who still has flexibility to twist, turn and… change?
I had an argument with @scaryb over the same thing
As my father would say, we don’t argue, we debate. Sometimes intensely. But then, he’s a teacher.23 October 2013 at 15:54 #19138
The only substantive objection I’m aware of (bound to be others though) is that D11 refers to him in the past tense. This and the apparent link to the Time War lends itself to a pre-11 setting better than a post 11.
This could be explained away by the timing of the HurtDoctor’s actions though. If the actions that were not in the name of the Doctor occur during the anniversary special, then they will be witnessed by both D10 and D11. Therefore, when D11 refers to him in the past tense, it is accurate because he witnessed those events when he was D10 – the event was in his past, even though the HurtDoctor is (at present) his future. If those events refer to the time war, he may have witnessed them many times.
Presumably, as D11 has already witnessed these events once (when still D10) and remembers, he will somehow alter them, breaking out of the loop. This redeems his future self while making the future ambiguous once more so he doesn’t have to become the HurtDoctor.
Series 7 has explored this kind of loop several times – The Girl Who Waited, JTTCOTT for example. I think this is shadowing the much larger loop we’ve been watching.23 October 2013 at 13:14 #19131
…It would almost be like reverse character development to go from Hurt to Hartnell…
I don’t disagree with you on this – I was intending to make the point that I’ve been enjoying reading the Doctor Zero theories because I’m not keen on the 8.5 idea, but that is where the thrust of discussion has been. My knowledge of the First Doctor is scant, but the lost, historian, almost hermit exile could perhaps be a shocked reaction to what he’d become in his previous incarnation? I’m not sure, but any new line of speculation is always fun.
My problem with the D8.5 theory is not dissimilar to yours with the DZero theory – the Doctor has only just regenerated in ‘Rose’ but is immediately introducing himself as The Doctor. If his previous incarnation had lost/shunned the title, was he able on regenerating to just say, actually, sorry about that blip, I’m The Doctor again now? I can see the PTSD throughout D9’s series, but I just can’t see that he was trying to reclaim his title, to prove himself as the Doctor once more. So I can’t imagine he’d be comfortable as the Doctor without some sort of redemption prior to regeneration for the HurtDoctor – but if he’s been redeemed, why would his future self still be denying that he is/was the Doctor?
Consequently, I find most of my speculation on the HurtDoctor fits better with him as a future incarnation, particularly given Moffat’s love of loops and paradoxes, and the difficulties of retconning the history of either D1 or D9 without either of the actors. However, future incarnation is proving a rather lonely drum!
Cheers, OH23 October 2013 at 10:17 #19112
Bit late to the party on this, but thought the trailer was superb – and others have said upstream, has sated the desire for a content trailer because this is so much more satisfying. Very lovingly made, clearly with the intention of packing easter eggs for both BG and AG fans, my first instinct was that this was just a treat for fans, rather than clues to the anniversary special.
On reflection though, we’ve become accustomed to the idea that Moffat likes to tease so it would be foolish to assume there isn’t something hidden in there. The policeman and D1’s faces struck me as odd – as someone else has mentioned, I initially assumed a clip from the Mark Gatiss docu-drama, but I think it is a case of remastering and then 3-d -> 2-d conversion. The whole opening shot reminds me of a panoramic photo stretching the image and distorting it slightly.
I can see similarities between the policeman and John Hurt, but I’m not convinced. I think he could be passing on his rounds, but the frozen in time affect makes it look as if he’s guarding instead. However the idea that he’s watching over the scrapyard is intriguing – protecting his future?
The opening sequence being in black and white and then going into colour as soon as the Doctor was on screen was interesting – if this was a tribute to the shows black and white origins, I’d have expected it to stay that way until later – so was this a hint that there is a pre-history awaiting ‘colouring in’? I think we are going to see an origins story – the day he becomes The Doctor, with the events for D10, D11 and the Hurt Doctor proving the catalyst that leads D1 to leave Gallifrey.
I do like the Doctor-Zero theories, mainly because the Doctor 8.5 concept has never felt right for me , although I still lean towards the HurtDoctor being a future incarnation who has crossed, and interfered with, his own timeline (hence D11 talking about him in the past tense, because it happened in his past, even though the HurtDoctor is his future) – I like the idea of a trinity of past, present and future Docs on screen together, and it adds a twist to multi-doctor stories that hasn’t been seen before. It would also allow a theme of the special to be ‘your future isn’t written yet’, which fits with the canon neutralising that the GI storyline has accomplished.
I saw Susan in the globe reflection – so I’m sticking with my Clara’s mum is Susan under a chameleon arch theory! But actually, I think this was just a tribute to the show’s history – first companion, latest companion and most enduring companion (on the grounds Sarah Jane bridged BG and AG Who) all in the same sequence. I was also convinced it was Paul McGann doing the voiceover at first, blending in to Matt Smith later on. Most of us seem convinced that the anniversary will touch on the Time War to some degree anyway, so is this another hint (or my overactive imagination?)
On another note, @enlighteneddespot – good point about the ‘fall of the eleven’ . Dorium has already corrected the wording of the prophecy on screen, but this just adds emphasis to the fact that anything can subtly change in the telling over time – particularly when it’s word of mouth. One way or another (and I think you’ve highlighted the two most likely ways), I think we’re going to find that prophecy doesn’t mean what we are currently reading it as meaning.15 October 2013 at 20:40 #18561
@craig – Apologies for not feeding back sooner, but loving your work. The site looks superb. The new recent activity sidebar is great and the links at the top to the latest posts really handy – particularly on mobile. The whole thing just looks really clean and tidy and is easy to use.
Just read that back and it sounds horribly sycophantic. I’m impressed, but I’ll try and think of something critical 🙂 In the meantime, hope you’re enjoying a well earned drink or two!12 October 2013 at 15:45 #18332
@Shazzbot – had similar thoughts about Groundhog Day when the name was announced #17122 🙂
Tend to agree with the posts above that suggest the special is going to focus on a massive timeloop. I’m still also convinced that the Hurt Doctor is a potential future Doctor – someone that 10 and 11 know they could become and fear doing so because they meet him and know what he does during this special. He is the outcome of this particular loop and is the Doctor’s future until they break out of the loop. I’m just not buying the Doc 8.5 thing, they’ve been too keen to drop hints in that direction while being really controlling about everything else (WHERE’S THE TRAILER!?) However it pans out I’m sure, as @janetteb suggests, the Hurt Doctor will only exist in the time loop we’re watching, rather than leading to a renumbering headache.
I’m still convinced the start of The Eleventh Hour is crucial. What was it about the regeneration of D10 – D11 that was so strong it blew up the TARDIS? My guess is that it was because this regeneration was a paradox that the TARDIS has been struggling to maintain, because the D10 – D11 regeneration has – or should have – occurred elsewhere and D11 already existed, but outside of this timeloop. We’ve already seen plenty of hints of 2 versions of D11 and we’ve already seen that paradoxes can blow up the TARDIS (River Song in The Pandorica Opens / The Big Bang for example).
Right, me n the little’un have got a date with The Aztecs 🙂12 October 2013 at 14:28 #18329
@Shazzbot – I use both. When I’m able to visit regularly, I use the recent posts links in the sidebar, but as I’ve been rather overloaded at late and only dipping in and out, the activity logs are great for getting a feel for where the conversation is at.10 October 2013 at 11:12 #18109
@scaryb – Thanks. I’m now aging quickly at the thought that there may be more Colin Baker episodes than we’ve already suffered. What if an extra season of Colin Baker was actually filmed while the show was on hiatus, and they’re gonna inflict that on us now, with the reveal that Docs 7-11 were all a closed timeline and PC will actually turn out to be Doctor 7. Argh.10 October 2013 at 11:02 #18106
@craig – just popped in to echo the above praise for the redesign – much better on iPhone and easier on the eye in general. I had a uni lecturer who insisted that any web pages should be dark backgrounds with pale yellow writing for ease on the eye. This was early era html with few pics or graphics, so it all just ended up feeling very oppressive. Grey with black text feels much better to me – neat and easy to read. I’m gonna pay homage by switching some of our work stuff to a grey background (bandwagon jumper? Me!?)
As far as the home page is concerned, I tend to use the activity bar / blog posts / blog comments etc boxes rather than the direct links into the forums, to see where the conversation is at present and what’s new. Would it be possible to use the top of the home page to highlight the latest blog post, currently most active topic etc, possibly even a live view of an ongoing conversation in an active topic? Then below that a few links to sub menus (so just one link on the homepage for the SM retrospective etc) to quickly access the rest.
Or – to live up to the site byline – could there be a rotating ‘highlight’ reel of comments to emphasize some of the bonkers theories that have been put up – I guess this would need moderators to flag comments they think suitable for this in the db though, so may require too much manual intervention but it would give newcomers an immediate view of what the site is all about.
Anyway, good work 🙂2 October 2013 at 11:37 #17756
Very lucky – and happy – bugger! We applied with 2 names/email addresses and were successful with one of them. We’ve got tickets for the Sunday, coz Mrs Hatter works Saturdays. Consequently, we’re having to do a flying visit to the smoke just for the day, so won’t be able to make the pub gathering. Ta for the invite though! You’ll have to live blog the night on the Rose and Crown for the rest of us… 😉1 October 2013 at 13:50 #17732
For those who didn’t manage to get tickets to the Doctor Who Celebration – they now have a few tickets available. Because of the insane demand last time, they’ll be holding a ballot for them.
The ballot is now open, and will be open until 10am 30th Sept.
Just bobbed on to say thanks for this spot! We managed to get some (having missed out last time due to forgetting about them til mid-afternoon)
Cheers 🙂10 September 2013 at 14:19 #17124
@jimthefish – yup, thought the same about the running time. It’s gonna be like early 90’s cinema.
In all seriousness, slightly less than a standard 2 parter after being an anniversary year that could politely be described as ‘lacking’ feels very underwhelming (while at the same time, will be eagerly devoured due to the paucity of episodes over the past 2 years)10 September 2013 at 13:13 #17122
Popping this in here to be on the safe side….
Anniversary special will be called ‘Day of The Doctor’ with a 75 minute run time.
Maybe the 11th Doctor stuck in one Groundhog-esque day because he can’t get out of his time stream? The day the Hurt Doctor becomes the Doctor? The day the Doctor became the Doctor? I’m assuming it’s not the day the Doctor saved the universe, coz we’ve had hundreds of those days already!13 August 2013 at 13:46 #16018
Doctor 2 claims to be about 450 years old (Tomb of the Cybermen)
makes you think, Doctors 3-11 really burned through the regens a bit too quickly didn’t they, around 700 years between them?
Assuming the energy source driving regeneration is linked to the space/time vortex (hence the TARDIS connection), perhaps there’s simply a finite amount of it, and the TimeLords placed limits on the use of it to slow down the march of entropy? Possibly controls on reproduction etc as well, as has been pointed out elsewhere, they’d need to do something to stop them spreading like bunnies. Or perhaps, with each passing regeneration, their ability to process the energy is diminished, so after 12 regens they can’t do it anymore without some form of medical intervention?
I think its fairly safe to imply that the 12 regeneration only limit no longer applies to the Doctor surely ? Of course, this doesn’t stop SM fixing it in a more permanent way, but it doesn’t feel like its the most difficult issue right now.
I agree it’s not the most pressing or difficult issue, but I think it’s more that there is a suspicion that this anniversary is being used to remove millstones from writer’s necks. Consequently, any pertinent continuity issues are being addressed now or in the near future. The GI has seen off most of them. The regen limit is likely to be in there.
For me, seeing how SM will bring back the TimeLords or fix the Hurt Doctor’s “not in the name of the Doctor” action to alleviate his guilt and “fix” his psychological problem seems like the real continuity eraser question ?
I think you’re right as far as the 50th is concerned, it will focus on fixing the Hurt Doctors actions. This may (if the Time War is involved) also lead to the return of the Time Lords. Restoring the Time Lords may also lead to fixing the regen limit. However, bringing back the Time Lords in their existing (albeit Time Locked) form just brings back that set of continuity baggage – so I don’t see them coming back in the Gallifreyan high society form we’ve seen before.13 August 2013 at 13:06 #16016
@nick – I’m not sure that every Claraicle is looking after hidden TimeLord children because for each to have that instinct to hunt them out, she’d presumably have had to have considered that prior to jumping in the time stream (and how do you find chameleon arched kids?) – more likely just a few of them (the 2 in the Snowmen, maybe the Maitland kids) that could have been placed where it was known they’d come under Clara’s care. This could possibly be done by the Doctor and Clara, knowing that there was already a Claraicle there who would look after them, so it’s not creating another Clariacle for another use, it’s using a resource that’s already there.
Possibly rather than TimeLord children, they’re the children of Chameleon Arched TimeLadies? Could explain what’s happened to the mothers?13 August 2013 at 12:52 #16015
Riffing off other people’s ideas: suppose Clara regards the Hurt Doctor as the person responsible for her mother’s death? Either because he came and took Ellie away – and then the family were told of her death; or because it’s the Hurt Doctor who is genuinely responsible for it.
That would certainly make you faint; you’ve just risked your very existence for the bloke who, it turns out, killed your Mum. And it would explain why Clara’s so insistent that she’s seen all the Doctor’s faces.
I like this and have been wondering along the same lines. My main hesitation is over Clara’s reaction – more, ‘who’s that?’ than ‘why is he here?’ which doesn’t suggest recognition (or, at least immediate recognition) However, I think it may be important that she fainted before he turned around – so any recognition or shock is based around either the view of the back of his head, or on his voice which wouldn’t necessarily make for immediate recognition.
Didn’t she say something along the lines of “But I’ve seen all of you, all eleven faces“? Can’t remember if I’m quoting correctly, but if so, it dovetails with her fainting before she’s even seen the Hurt Doctor’s face.
Another idea for why she recognises him – maybe she once saw the Hurt Doctor on Blackpool beach, and being a curious child, followed behind until she got lost (and maybe lost her confidence/mojo in the process?) – perhaps Ellie also noticed him and that’s how she was able to find Clara so quickly?12 August 2013 at 22:30 #15996
Replying here because it’s well removed from the companions discussion and I don’t want to cause the Topic Dalek to exterminate herself 😉
I did wonder – and it’s probably more of one for the Next Doctor thread – whether the lack of Time Lords and the regeneration limit, rather than being reset in the 50th by Steven Moffat’s Great Big Continuity Eraser (trademark pending) will be a major arc in the next series or so? After all, with the Doctor running out of regenerations and being the last of his kind, it would be understandable if he became more aware of his own mortality and responsibility as the last of a species. Could he find a way to bring the species back, or to preserve himself? Perhaps he’ll be trying with his Granddaughter, to run towards a new Gallifrey (possibly with the hidden timechildren as discussed above?)
and you replied:
Being the ‘last of his kind’ is an AG Who affectation (which isn’t even true, seeing as how the Master came back), invoked right from the beginning with Eccleston’s first episode, Rose. But it’s such a departure from so many more years of BG Who history, that I’ll be glad to see the back of it. Yes, there’s a certain frisson of character being ‘the last of the Time Lords’ but in my opinion, it’s edging into really dark Batman territory, and not staying true to what the Doctor, and Doctor Who, are all about as a full-family programme. Adults may revel in the self-centred existential angsty aloneness of a Batman-type character, but a family programme needs to take into account, well, family.
Having the odd Time Lord turn up to screw up / interfere with / bumble about trying to help with (and cadge food off ), etc the Doctor’s adventures seems, to me, more in tune with a family programme.
Completely agree, I want the show to move on from the Last of the Time Lords thing – and I think it will. I’m just wondering whether it will be done quickly (i.e. done and dusted with the 50th), or become more of an arc for the 12th Doctor, how to resurrect his species (without bringing back the nutcase element from the end of the Time War), or whether it’s morally right to find a way to gain more regenerations to preserve the race?
With yourself and @bluesqueakpip discussing the possibility of hidden time children, I wonder if it will be resolved over longer than an episode. Not so much as a Time Lord of the week run – more hints here and there that there may be remanants of the race, with a conclusion at the end of S8 that the Time Lords are back in some form.
As for the regeneration limit, I’d prefer for it not to be removed, as not knowing whether the Doctor can regenerate each time would add more tension to the end of each Doctor’s run. Time Lords are guaranteed 12 regenerations – anything else is a bonus sort of thing.12 August 2013 at 16:23 #15966
And I don’t want the Doctor to be running from Gallifrey, nor only meeting ‘renegade’ Time Lords who want to kill him. I don’t want to have a Time Lord Of The Week either; but it would be quite different, post 50th, to have a Doctor who’s more like ‘I hate my family when they turn up unexpectedly’ rather than ‘Fear me … I killed them all.’
Yeah, I’m not keen on family turning up unexpectedly either. They always expect to be fed.
I did wonder – and it’s probably more of one for the Next Doctor thread – whether the lack of Time Lords and the regeneration limit, rather than being reset in the 50th by Steven Moffat’s Great Big Continuity Eraser (trademark pending) will be a major arc in the next series or so? After all, with the Doctor running out of regenerations and being the last of his kind, it would be understandable if he became more aware of his own mortality and responsibility as the last of a species. Could he find a way to bring the species back, or to preserve himself? Perhaps he’ll be trying with his Granddaughter, to run towards a new Gallifrey (possibly with the hidden timechildren as discussed above?)12 August 2013 at 16:08 #15965
It’s your bonkers theory, Osaka – do you think she met Clara’s father strictly as an accident? Does he have any physical resemblance to David?
Same name. Both dark haired. Um.
I’d imagine that without any memory of her life as a TimeLord, she meets someone she falls for, oblivious to previous history. Happy accident caused by a leaf. Or by Clara throwing the leaf at them.
The fact that she died occurred just before the start of the new series (and therefore around when the Doctor regenerated into CE and potentially the end of the Time War) could be used to support the idea she was called back to the time war. Maybe the Doctor needed her help, but she didn’t survive?
As for placing Susan for the AG generation, I’m not sure if it would be done, but it could be done – we just need to see the Hurt Doctor walking up to the actress who plays Ellie Oswald, saying ‘Susan?’ and she begins to remember, finds her fob watch. New generation follow that she was a hidden Time Lady, older generation get to see who Susan became.12 August 2013 at 15:40 #15961
1) her travelling back from the future (assuming David has died of old age) so from around 2225 to before 1995 and falling for Clara’s father (I don’t think this could happen if she was fob watched) and
Well, it is a primarily bonkers theory, but say if the Doctor did turn up and persuade Susan to go into hiding, getting her to shunt back 300 years before she fob watched herself would be a pretty good way to do it.
2) The Doctor failing to recognize/sense another Timelord when he sees one
But he didn’t recognise the fob watched Master did he? And given he couldn’t remember the GI in the Snowmen, D11 seems to be a little forgetful (or preoccupied.)
I don’t actually think Clara will be anything to do with Susan, the above was just me what if-ing. I do suspect that Clara will turn out to his Granddaughter though (but not Susan.) So the next 50 years will start with the Doctor travelling with a Granddaughter again. And if the anniversary is to cover the Time War, he could well be running away from Gallifrey with his Granddaughter again.12 August 2013 at 13:29 #15943
Interesting thoughts on chameleon arches. If I remember right, the Master ran from the time war and hid using a chameleon arch. Not sure I like the thought of Susan hiding, but what if Clara’s mum’s ‘death’ was actually Susan coming out of her chameleon arched form and returning to fight in the time war?
Oooh, bonkers theory ahoy – what if the 8th Doctor had gone back to see Susan and persuaded her to hide, but later became the Hurt Doctor and went on a recruitment drive, encouraging all hiding Time Lords (including his own grand-daughter) to come out of hiding to fight? Maybe the Hurt Doctor was one of the last people to see Clara’s mum before she died and that’s who Clara saw in the time war book? The realisation that that was actually the Doctor then caused her to faint at the end of TNoTD.11 August 2013 at 01:22 #15884
Watching this first episode reminds me of how I felt when first watching it.
Exactly. I’ve watched the 3 parts today, with a grumpy teething toddler on my knee but it could have been 25 years ago, I could have been back in my parents lounge, watching with my Dad while he failed to do his marking (the amount of school work done by my parents being a measure of the quality of the show in our house.)
Watching this episode I immediately thought “It’s gloomy – I’m missing things – THIS IS DOCTOR WHO!”.
Yes – and that sums up how I felt about the show at this point after I was lost during the sixth doctor era. There was a sense that there was more going on with McCoy’s doctor than we were seeing and he hints at it here – mentioning ‘more games than even he could play at once’ (not exact quote but along those lines). There was mystery, adventure and manipulation about this Doctor – but also kindness – he was trying to bring Ace along (and by extension, us) and always humourous. I liked his condescension of those who tried him and the fact that you weren’t sure if he was being careless and flippant about how things could pan out, or whether he had a much bigger plan we weren’t party to.
There were some great touches, such as talking to the cockroach – would have been so easy to lose given how tightly cut this is, but I’m glad it stayed. As was discussed in the part 2 blog, too many characters were coming and going in 25 minutes to keep track, and the story would have benefited from a 4th part, to create room for that midsection to breathe. There’s a frustration as well – watching today reminding me that just as McCoy had completely made the role his own, when there were interesting ideas and stories being written and the show felt on the up, the rug was finally pulled
Many pointers towards AG Who – particularly with the focus on the assistant as a driver of the story and as a mystery the Doctor is exploring. Smith’s Doctor particularly has a lot of parallels with McCoy’s (in fact, I reckon this episode could have been lifted and planted as an eleventh Doctor adventure with little need for alteration.) .
Fenric is probably a better adventure story – but it doesn’t give you that clear sense that – in BG and AG Who – we’re watching the same series.
My 20 month old, who shouted ‘Doctor’ at the TV as soon as the music kicked in at the start of the Next Doctor Live Show repeated the trick today, immediately identifying the 1989 title music and credits with The Doctor – proof, if proof were needed that it is one and the same show 🙂9 August 2013 at 22:14 #158169 August 2013 at 22:10 #15813
Some intriguing theories above. I’ve warmed to Clara as a descendant of the Doctor over rewatches – I think it was the snog that put me off originally, but assuming that’s overlooked, it would make a lot of sense, tie into the blood calling out to blood from Hide and take us back to the beginning of the show if an older Doctor is travelling with his grandchild (and he’d taken both his grandchildren to the Rings of Akhaten etc)
I like @fatmaninabox ‘s suggestion on River being pregnant – but I think I’m leaning towards that child ultimately ending up with Amy and Rory. Just because it seems to wrap their story up quite sweetly. I do think choosing not to film the ATM postscript was deliberate though – just to leave it as an opening should they want to exploit it in the future.
Not sure on River as Clara’s mother (although could possibly see her as grandmother?) because it suggests that Clara’s mother was not her real mother – which seems odd given that she appears to have also cropped up repeatedly to be mother to the various Claricles (in the NoTD Claricle montage). As other’s have suggested recently (@bluesqueakpip maybe?) I think there’s something timey-whimey about Clara’s mum and we’re going to find out more.
There’s plenty still to be explained about Clara. ‘So that’s who…’ in the History of the Time War, who was the woman in the shop that gave her the Doctors number, why does she always seem to know what to do (e.g. directing soldiers in NiS) – and is that part of her being born to save the Doctor (actually – I guess it’s because the GI gave her an upgrade in BoSJ thus creating his own downfall). Is it important that she got lost on Blackpool beach and her mum found her? Why did she faint at the end of NoTD – not on seeing the Hurt Doctor, but on discovering that this person was part of the Doctor, but not The Doctor.
One rather bonkers thought to finish on – (apologies if this has been suggested elsewhere) – what if Clara is her own mum? It would explain why her mum is always with her (and can always find her). It’s suitably impossible, guarantees her own existence and justifies her specifically being born to save the Doctor. It’d also be the latest in a series of Red Dwarf similarities.8 August 2013 at 15:38 #15699
@htpbdet – I’m not convinced even the most ardent of spoiler adverse would regard a punishment quite that harsh as fitting for the crime.
@All but esp. @craig – just wizzed through the above posts and wanted to add my voice to those saying Thanks! for creating this little community and thanks to yourself, @jimthefish, @phaseshift and @Shazzbot for your constant hard work modding and troll proofing us. Hope @Shazzbot finds her way back soon.