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19 May 2013 at 18:12 #9855
Initial reaction involved a lot of whooping and a big WHAT!? in our house. Loved it. Although panicked when I saw Six’s coat. Didn’t need him coming spoiling my fun again 😉
Some thoughts (still need to rewatch, so apologies for any imprecise rambling I’m about to set down. Does apologising for something that you haven’t done yet qualify as timey-whimey?). Anyway –
@ardaraith – good call on the TARDIS helping the many Claras so being responsible for stealing the Doctor still. Its neat and explains how she knows where in the time stream to be / what to be doing. I think the many Claras are primarily stopping the GI from interfering, rather than explicitly saving the Doctor every time, so regenerations etc would still happen.
In Hide, the TARDIS shows Clara herself – taken as being bitchy, I guess it was actually showing her Clara-prime because it had no idea which Clara it was talking to (as TDW establishes the TARDIS sees all of history simulataneously).
If there are thousands of fractured versions of the GI floating around, are they going to act like little terrorist cells, popping up with no head that can be cut off so to speak – don’t think we’ve seen the last of it (but probably have for a while).
@pedant – Clara jumped to save the Doctor, so the Doctor had to jump in to save her. Pretty much the bridge in It’s A Wonderful Life yes?! And now his Guardian Angel was/is always there whether he knows it or not.Another prisoner who knows about the Doctors future, along with Prisoner Zero in TEH. Bit of a prisoner theme – relevant to the Hurt Doctor perhaps? Congrats to @jimthefish and all the other Dark Doctor adherents btw!
My initial reaction was that the Hurt Doctor was the Valeyard. My wife immediately thought the Doctors numbering had been thrown off and he was from the Time War. I can see opinion here is similarly scattered (with the addition of the Doctor Zero theories upstream, which I love). However, I’m going to suggest that he is a future doctor but went back in his own timeline to end the Time War, only allowing himself (as 8 or 9) to escape the Timelock. The Doctors survivors guilt is worsened by the fact that he knows what he is going to become, and he’s been running from his future, rather than his past. It would justify Ten’s ‘I don’t want to go’ (and going on the lamb rather than facing up to reality), as well as his horror at his TimeLord Victorious moment in WoM, and of course Eleven’s darker moments. And Doctors 9/10/11 couldn’t haven ever broken the Timelock even if they’d wanted to, because he has not yet created it in his own timestream.
But, ‘Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor’ – comes across as a Massive Moffat Misdirect (TM pending).
Interesting that the Tomb TARDIS was Eleven’s current set up. Implies that this is the final incarnation, as would Clara only fixing timestreams upto the Eleventh. I’m gonna guess the second half can be explained away by Clara only helping the Doctor become who he is when she met him. Or is the current design a ‘no personality’ template that Eleven hasn’t bothered changing?
I think the Doctors comments to River about it paining him to see her also explain the TARDIS refit and costume change. The previous set up was a constant reminder of what he’d lost, and it wouldn’t feel homely without his family, so a change would have been in order. In that mental state, the change wouldn’t have been to something warm and fuzzy.
Emphasis on Jenny’s heart by Strax when reviving her and I think Vastra calls her ‘my heart’? Could be imagining that though. Are we supposed to be thinking about heart(s)? Jenny as Docs Daughter Jenny theory back on? The original Jenny clone was only days old, so could she have regenerated as a baby with no memories? Put me in mind of the Power of Three as well but can’t see any connection.Anyway, time for a rewatch!
18 May 2013 at 02:07 #9505ok, my predictions:
Clara – thanks to @pedant ‘s spot on It’s A Wonderful Life having a guardian angel named Clarence, I’m going with Clara is there to convince the Doctor of his importance to the universe. We’ve been seeing flashbacks to examples of the benefits of the Doctor intervening, Clara is telling him these stories, while substituting as a generic companion because she doesn’t know what the other companions have been like (so we get no feel for her because we still haven’t met her being herself). We’ve also seen the Doctor wanting to jump off the bridge and remove himself from the universe, but we’re yet to see the universe with no Doctor – so I guess this is what we see in TNoTD. At the end of which, the universal Bedford Falls will come to the Doctor’s aid and he’ll be reunited with his wife. Clara gets her wings (learns to fly the TARDIS) but is scattered through time and space by some twist at the end which sets up the 50th.
Doctor – his name is the password for something. I’d guess the timelock because I can’t imagine anything else that important. Think the bomb in NiS is foreshadow of this. I’m guessing this is the thing that scatters Clara through time and space, so he ends up creating his own Impossible Girl. The speaking of his name (which we won’t hear) will not actually be related to the question being asked.
The Question – Doctor Who. I don’t think this will be in terms of what’s your full name? Dr what? etc. I think there is going to be a critical moment when someone asks, Doctor? Doctor Who? Because no-one has ever heard of him. I’m going to take a stab in the dark that the Silence will fall because they need someone to recognise the doctor to help defend their actions in some way. But no-one knows who he is, just asking .Doctor who?’ and then resuming their assault on the silence. (We only did questionable things to you to stop the Doctor. Doctor? Doctor who? Stop lying…)
Reset – suspect this is Moffat hyperbole again, but at most, I’m guessing that the Doctors memories will be gone, so old enemies will seem new again, along with said enemies not knowing him.
Anyway, enjoy the show one and all, and I look forward to the bone picking from tomorrow evening onwards!
14 May 2013 at 14:01 #9056@pedant –
Of course, every time a bell (of St John?) rings and angel wins its wings….
And getting your wings being slang for learning to fly, perhaps a reason why Clara has been getting lessons in TARDIS control? Has Clara saved the Doctor every time we’ve heard the bell? I can’t remember which episodes it’s been in now.
14 May 2013 at 13:47 #9049@osakahatter (I think) — I’m sure Matt would get his farewell moment, even if he turned evil. I think it would probably go something like season 2 of Buffy (or as someone said (ScaryB? It’s getting quite confusing now) possibly season 6 of the same show. Besides I personally hated that extended ‘farewell tour’. I thought it was indulgent and overlong and lessened the impact of the regeneration when it finally came (I was sitting there thinking ‘God, just regenerate already…’)
No, wasn’t me. I’m with you on the farewell tour, thought it lessened the impact of tens departure. I’m harsh, I think they should have gotten Ken Loach to direct it. Ten would have set out for his reward, but the TARDIS would have started playing up again and materialized in Jackie’s flat, just after everyone had gone out for New Years Eve. Rose would have been about to go back for something, but changed her mind. The Doctor ends up regenerating alone at the kitchen sink as Jackie and Rose disappear into the snow.
I do like @bluesqueakpip ‘s suggestion that a dark doctor could retcon the whole thing because there would be a damn good reason for him not wanting to go.
Also, it was me that nicked the end of Buffy Season 6 for a theory, with the Doctor doing a Willow. Didn’t Xander keep hold of a bit of crayon from when he first met Willow? A bit like Clara’s leaf? I’m grasping now. I prefer the It’s A Wonderful Life idea.
14 May 2013 at 00:24 #8981@jimthefish – hadn’t thought about it in terms of the multi doctor hints as I’ve always leaned towards them shadowing an increasingly split personality, rather than 2 physical entities. However, could see that working and giving the show a radically new direction, start the next 50 years with the Doctor running away from himself/herself, rather than from the TimeLords. I think we’re likely to see the Doctor stopped/saved if he goes dark in the finale though, it mirrors too neatly with the rest of the series not to. But perhaps, that cliff hanger for the anniversary (which I’m taking for granted we’re going to get), a hint that the other doctor is out there…
14 May 2013 at 00:08 #8978@pedant – ooh, no I didn’t pick up on that and haven’t seen it mentioned. And I am now kicking myself, it’s been far too long since I watched it. @timeloop – Clarence is the angel in Its A Wonderful Life. He shows George what the world would be like without him in it and in doing so convinces him life is worth living.
Oh Good call! I’m going back and seeing if I can shoehorn that into a theory! The Fall of the Eleventh – a placename rather than an event, like Bedford Falls!? Possibly getting carried away…
13 May 2013 at 23:41 #8974@timeloop – sorry for the delay, just spotted your question about the 12 regeneration thing. It was mentioned in Deadly Assassin (and I think that was the first reference but better minds than I can confirm that), which was a fourth doctor story. There’s also various moments that suggest the TimeLords can control regeneration (for example, they force the regeneration of the 2nd doctor into the 3rd as a punishment and the Master has been given additional regenerations as reward for compliance with the timelords). So whether that power now rests with the Doctor himself as the last of the timelords, who knows? Doctor 11 also said in the Sarah Jane Adventures that he could regenerate 507 times, but that’s been generally taken as exaggeration rather than canon.
13 May 2013 at 22:05 #8955@phaseshift – I think you’re pretty much on the money with the arc being more about the Drs darkness, although I doubt we’ll see a fully dark Doctor (at least, for any length of time) – the nature of being a family show I guess.
Can’t remember if I posted my somewhat stretched metaphor before, but it ties with your points above, so apologies if this is a repeat. It’s almost as if the Doctors relationships with his companions has become almost like a drug to him, he gets the highs of showing off the universe, the dangers and the excitement, and then the come downs of them leaving him. This time he’s risen higher than ever – his companions having a child, and that child being his wife, but then had the ultimate come down of losing them. Consequently, he tried cold turkey (again) but it didn’t work. And now, to try and get that old high back, he’s onto something else, a stronger drug, not just a companion, but a companion with a mystery, not just the girl who waited, but the impossible girl! And not just showing off the universe, but taking more risks, being more reckless, putting himself and others into greater danger. It is a dark path, but I expect something will wake him up to what he’s doing soon.
As @htpbdet (and others) have been saying, I believe Clara is traveling with the Doctor because she’s the impossible girl. But she will become the impossible girl because of traveling with the Doctor. Much as I’d love her to be something else as well, I think it will be that simple. The Doctor’s line in JTTCOTT “I brought you here to keep you safe, but you’re not” foreshadows this I think.
I rewatched RoA and have been thinking about it quite a bit, because I perceived it as the weakest of the current run (but enjoyed it far more on a rewatch). The introduction of that Mummy, with guards etc was scary. It seemed a real threat but then just turned out to just be an alarm clock for the real danger – Grandfather. On first watch it just seemed a bit of a rushed twist, and the resolution a bit odd. But Grandfather had been in plain sight throughout, appearing in background shots regularly (and illuminating every scene). I really think this must be relevant to the finale, that the real danger is not what we expect but something we’ve been looking at throughout. I’m not sure what I do expect though so this theory falls down a little!
So what has been hiding in plain sight the entire time, regularly in shot? The Doctor, The TARDIS and Clara are the only realistic answers to that I think. Who would the real threat be? The TARDIS is being difficult with Clara, casting doubt upon her. The TARDIS’ unreliability has been mentioned alot recently, and she seems to have developed a liking for being blown up over the past few years, with the potential for devastating effect. The Doctor as discussed has been getting darker. Purely on the grounds that the Doctor is the only one of the three who is also a Grandfather, I’m going for Dark Doctor being the real threat (and to be fully enlightened again by the end of the episode!) But then, to allow this to then mirror RoA, I’m guessing Clara as the false threat/alarm clock (and that becoming the impossible girl will trigger him into full on Dark Doc mode). Something, possibly involving topiary (well, and love inevitably) to calm him down again. And now I re-read this, I realise I’ve pretty much nicked the ending of Buffy Season 6.
Anyway, my predictions for the finale:
-Clara to seem dangerous but not be-Clara to have something happen to her to scatter her through time and space
-Doctor to become dangerously dark.
-The name ‘The Doctor’ to become something to fear. And then become Hippocratic again. Actual name will not be mentioned or involved.
-Doctor to be brought back to normality, possibly by being shown the Doctor shaped hole in the universe, and seeing who he should be. Possibly through music.
-Some kind of surprise or teaser at the end to lead into the 50th. Not sure that’s much of a prediction really.
I’ve also been hoping for a culmination of a 3 season arc, but I’m losing faith on that score, there’s not been enough lead in.
13 May 2013 at 17:10 #8935@bobbingbird, @jimthefish, @phaseshift – personally, I also found the S5/S6 approach better with a more solid arc to get our teeth into, but then have also thoroughly enjoyed each episode of 7b (I do however think the Clara mystery should have been either deepened or resolved by now). Thinking back, there was a hell of a lot of (spurious) criticism from the press during s5/s6, all that it’s too complex for kids nonsense. Wonder if there’s been a compromise this season for the 50th celebrations to avoid negative press and speculation about the future of the show? Can’t say I’ve noticed any negative stories recently?
13 May 2013 at 16:22 #8929@janetteb – I was more getting at that its not as simple as writing a long story and cutting it in half (and I’m not suggesting that that is what you’re saying) – both episodes need an internal structure. The first ep should leave you wanting to see more, not that ‘huh!? It’s already over?’ feeling. My least favourite episode of SM’s run is Lets Kill Hitler (and I’m no critic of the last few years, I think we’ve been spoiled with a generally very high standard) – and I think my Iissue with that was because it only works when viewed as part of the whole, as a standalone viewing experience it lacks something.
I’m sure I saw something justifying The Hobbit being split into 3 films was because 3 films could each have an internal structure and logic that couldn’t be managed with 2, without rushing one film and dragging the other out (neatly avoiding the ‘well keep it as one’ argument of course).
13 May 2013 at 14:31 #8919@phileasf – was about to say the same thing about two parters. They’re a hard thing to accomplish, 2 stories that work as standalones, but the first sets up the second well, the second resolves the first satisfyingly, viewed together they still work (which almost demands a 3 act structure across the 2 episodes.)
I think you’re right that most of this season’s run could have benefited from a longer run time, rather than 2 parts. And if fact, a two parter in some cases could have been detrimental – for example, CH as two parts we could have lost that wonderful flashback sequence in favour of more detail on Dr and Clara investigating. I’d have liked seeing more of the Dr contemplating what losing the TARDIS would mean in JTTCOTT but not over another full episode. Hide got criticised in some quarters for having too much ending.
On the other hand, RoA could have really benefited from being a two parter to contrast the wonder and excitement at exploring another world with the horror of sacrifice and imminent destruction. The switch from the false threat of the Mummy to the true threat of Grandfather could have been handled better over two parts (thinking about it – is this foreshadowing the end of the season, a false threat that is actually only a herald of the true danger in plain sight?)
I’m struggling to think of any non-Moffat examples that work completely. RTD S1 finale perhaps – his conclusions tended to fall a bit flat (to the point where the unexpected (if you managed to watch unspoiled) 3 parter at the end of S3 worked brilliantly for 2/3’s with Utopia and Sound of Drums, but Last of the Time Lords just didn’t quite live up to it for me). Quite a few of the others felt like too much story for 45 minutes, not enough for 90 – Rebel Flesh and Almost People perfect examples of this.
12 May 2013 at 19:21 #8765DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLE SPOILERS
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@zaphod – Yep, the 8-9 regeneration does leave more wiggle room for twists because it’s not been seen off screen. However, the speculation (and it was just that) I was referring to was whether more happened with the 10-11 regeneration than we saw, largely because of the fires breaking out on the TARDIS and various themes of mirroring, duplicates etc since. For what it’s worth, I’d be amazed if John Hurt turns out to be an actual Doctor. I’d guess either some aspect of his psyche (particularly given we’ve already seen scenes inside his head in the latest ep), or some kind of Doctor-that-might-have-been.
12 May 2013 at 12:42 #8705DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLE SPOILERS
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@htpbdet – Would also bring us into Valeyard terrority? I’ve always suspected SM wants to tie up canon to clear the decks so to speak, although my entire evidence for this is the TARDIS becoming less predictable again, so I’m not sure what prompted this. But this suspicion is largely why I’ve been expecting the removal of the timelock at some point (and trying to see signs of it in every mystery), the 12 regenerations/13 docs thing to be addressed (which SM has been questioned on in the past) and the valeyard to be met or refuted. So I suppose this idea of a new 9th Doc would be a way to bring forward the resolution of them in time for the anniversary. Can’t help but think though that if that is the case, resolving those will end up leaving SMs own threads hanging. And I wanna know why the TARDIS blew up in S5 dagnamit!
As has been pointed out in the NiS thread though, there seemed to be a pause in the flash of previous Doc faces between 10 and 11, the others flowed quite quickly. So I’d suspect that if (and it’s a big if) John Hurt is playing a version of the Doctor, it’s something to do with the 10-11 regeneration rather than an 8-9 retcon. Would also help explain why the 10-11 regeneration caused the TARDIS to take such a hammering.
12 May 2013 at 02:45 #8668Well I went to the Grun, but dear god, can’t imagine there bring more negativity on a CiF if Maggie had dragged herself from the grave to write an episode about flambe-ing miners in whale oil before serving them up disguised as Linda McCartney sausages to vegetarian public sector workers. 😉 *
Ill be staying exclusively here for my doc fix i think. once again, enjoyed the episode, cyber men back as both creepy and dangerous, delighted to see that finally. Think this series has been consistently good, unlike the hordes over at the G.
@miapatrick – good point on the universes reaction to that doctor shaped hole is similar to finding out what the silence have done. Wonder if that hole filled again will have the same outcome as the silence revealing themselves.
@bluesqueakpip – I got the programmed vibe from Clara as well, almost like she’s intelligent code, learning how to be a perfect companion based on input from the doctor. A bit like the spoonheads just responding to input to try and bluff their way as whoever they’re disguised.
thought the docs comment at the end about a tight dress was fatherly disapproval. It certainly jarred with the cyber docs thoughts – but lacking understanding of emotion has he misinterpreted The docs feelings? That locked part of his brain too, has the pocket watch just been to remind us of chameleon arch’s to foreshadow this?
Another numerical counted list – 699 something’s? Another TARDIS lack of reliability reference. Feeling sorry for the person who presses the button to destroy 1000 galaxies – different perspective on the doctors guilt, he is to be pitied for his responsibility? Why was the emperors throne a pyramid?
*As a fully paid up member of the stereotypical Guardian reader club, this is meant in a spirit of self depreaciating jest and I hope no offence caused!
9 May 2013 at 21:48 #8388@scaryb –
“This phrase does not compute, LOL
“Ha! It could of course mean Clara is actually the Doctor’s unknown delinquent son?
@htpbdet –
“Who needs Guantanamo Bay when you have Twin Dilemma?”
I heard it’s on loop 24/7 in there…
“Ahh, but assuming which part of the fanbase that is, you’ve talked about this earlier in the same post of yours (nice thoughts on companion arcs btw!) – “so many people have different starting points with the show” and “us fans so often talk about ‘our’ doctors and ‘our’ companions”. A lot of people started with nu-Who (as did I) and I can imagine people especially wanting ‘their’ companion to be part of the 50th anniversary celebrations.”
Completely agree, and I’m a bad hypocrite complaining about people wanting Rose (or references to her) when I’ve been enjoying the refs to previous docs in this series and the return of old enemies (and loved the Sarah Jane appearance in School Reunion). I’m with @craignixon on Donna – really didn’t want Catherine Tate because of her sketch show but then Donna became my favourite nu-who companion, so felt the end of her stint was a bit undermined by all the returnees – perhaps that influenced my feelings on Rose at the time. Ultimately, I like the show’s ability to refresh itself but the end of season 4 felt a bit inward looking.
However, I’m also still convinced that the anniversary will tie closely to nu-who in terms of story lines (Time War I’d expect, particularly after JTTCOTT), but be referential to the original beginning of the show, and am fully looking forward to the prospect!
9 May 2013 at 15:40 #8334@bluesqueakpip – Clara’s mother’s maiden name was Ravenwood? I missed that.. another Indy Jones reference! Does this mean the episode with John Hurt is gonna be rubbish!?
9 May 2013 at 15:39 #8333@Shazzbot – you’re welcome! I think it’s a worthy discussion, not least because us fans so often talk about ‘our’ doctors and ‘our’ companions, or an individual’s stories and time in the TARDIS, that you don’t take a step back and look at the evolution of the doctor-companion relationship despite it being crucial to the show. With such a long history, so many people have different starting points with the show and different perspectives. And from the writers point of view, to keep people interested in a 50 year old show must be a massive challenge/responsibility (given that most shows fall by the wayside by the 6th or 7th series), so the dynamic of that key relationship has to evolve, but in a way that is still recognisably Doctor Who.
I’ve found my views on the the companions have changed with distance, so comparing their roles is something of an impossible task. One of my early memories of the show is Five regenerating into Six and I immediately didn’t like Six – something that tainted my view of his companions as well. Guilty by association, I didn’t really give a monkey what happened to them and resentfully remembered Davidson’s stories instead. In the 90’s however, between UKGold replaying available Doctor Who serials on a Sunday morning and the novels, somewhat older (wiser?) I found my opinion on the 5th Doctor and his companions soured in favour of the Pertwee and Tom Baker periods (and I couldn’t bring myself to reassess Colin Bakers time). Similarly, I never had an issue with Rose when nu-who started, a likeable companion and my favourite show back! However, the desperation amongst parts of the fanbase for her to come back to the show put me off her (and I know that’s unfair, it’s not Rose the character I dislike – it’s the Rose deification). I need to go back and revisit old-who again, and see if time has changed my opinion once more. Not sure if I can risk Colin Baker though 😉
9 May 2013 at 14:11 #8317@ardaraith @shazzbot @htpbdet –
Just catching up on your discussion of companions and the Docs morality – some illuminating and fascinating observations there, thank you.
For my money, I think @htpbdet is spot on when he highlights everything changing with the Time War. As I see it, your personal morality constantly evolves based upon your experiences and the society around you – see for example how attitudes towards social security have changed since it’s inception. The Doctor’s own society is now gone, so his moral compass is only influenced by his own actions and has been corrupted by self disgust at committing genocide and self righteous arrogance because he did it for the greater good – and therefore his judgement is supreme. He now needs companions to act as a moral guide, but ultimately, they are providing human morality, so we as viewers understand where they are coming from, but also accept that the Doctor, as an alien, may not.
As far as how the role of the companion has changed, I think attaching the arc to the companion rather than to the doctor is just a mechanic that allows the show to play with new themes without relying purely on regenerations to spark our interest once again. I think this season has directly referenced this – for the Doctor, just a new companion and a new journey isn’t enough anymore, it has to be a mystery to solve, something to tax his mental prowess and the impossible girl has done that. Companions are an addiction, he’s periodically going cold turkey but he needs them – and like any dependency he eventually needs something stronger (or more mysterious in his case).
I still suspect that whatever happens in the 50th anniversary, and whatever happens to Clara (and especially if she turns out to be completely normal) the show will be set back up for doctor related arcs with companions developing through traveling with him, rather than the other way round – we may yet even get to see a happy parting of the ways!
7 May 2013 at 16:28 #8124@bluesqueakpip – I’d suspect so. 7-2 seems to have references to all the old-who docs in close to consecutive order (assuming we see something 6 and 7 related in the next 2 eps) but I’d been thinking they’d run out of episodes by the time they’d ref’d doc 7, missing out on the nu-who docs. Thinking about it though, the Doc said something was ‘brilliant!’ at some point (but I can’t remember when offhand) which reminded me of 10, and Timey-whimey made a re-appearance didn’t it (or have I imagined that due to too much time spent reading this forum)? Is the outfit change a reference to Doc 8?
7 May 2013 at 16:11 #8122@htpbdet – belated thanks for the info on Hartnell as the 1st doc (or not). Brain of Morbius was actually the first Doctor Who novel I read, but I’ve never seen it and my memory has done a Doctor, to coin a (disputable) phrase! Thanks again 🙂
7 May 2013 at 15:51 #8121Ok, bonkers theory from me time…
Part 1, Clara: building on @blenkinsopthebrave ‘s summary of possible true identities of Clara (Docs Daughter, Docs Nanny, Docs Mother, Susan) can I throw the following into the mix –
To lock something, you need a lock and a key. What if Clara was the TimeLock and the Doctors name was the password (key)? The Doctor’s statement of “Don’t you go looking for my name” (emphasis is mine) would then make sense in that the one person who really shouldn’t go near it is Clara without risking of opening the lock.
How would she be the lock? Well, perhaps after creating the timelock on Trenzalore, holding both lock and key inside himself was destroying his body causing him to regenerate. The TARDIS lands on the planet the Doctor knows the best and he stumbles outside, finding himself on a beach. As he transforms, the key escapes from him into a curious young girl on holiday with her family in Blackpool, who spotted a strange glowing man under the pier. The memory of what she saw was overtaken by fear from the realisation that she’d lost her parents. Looking in the history of the time war, she saw a picture of Dr 8 (or 9) and finally realised who it was she saw on that beach. Meanwhile, as the lock needs to reside in something permanent (or someone virtually immortal), she cannot die. But as a human, that is her fate, so the paradox resolves itself by recreating her in another time or place each time she does die, be that of old age or excessive Daleky-ness.
Part 2 – Why doesn’t the Doctor remember? Well, firstly, he wasn’t aware that he’d met a young girl during his regeneration into 9, he was too busy adopting a rather fetching Northern accent due to his locale! At some point while as Doc 10, the Dr decided to ensure his own memories couldn’t be used to steal the key from him by chameleon arching himself into the body of a TimeLord named the Doctor (we know the Chameleon Arches can be used to disguise TimeLords as Humans, but maybe they can be used to hide whatever you need to hide, be it your species or just certain memories/ parts of your history? I’d be amazed, if the CA’s are brought back in as a device if they’re used in the same way again). This then covers why parts of his memory are hazy – he can almost remember in the same way John Smith could, but he’s locked critical parts of his memory away.
Both the chameleon arched Dr and the actual Dr underneath regenerating in the End Of Time at the same time (in the same body in fact) was then the reason the regeneration appeared so much more destructive than usual, causing the TARDIS to explode, and his own timeline to fracture into two inter weaving realities – cracking time, exploding TARDIS(es?) etc.
Part 3 – Trying to embrace as many loose threads as possible – what happens next? The reality streams begin to re-merge. The Dr then has to choose (by opening the fob watch or not) which reality to accept as real and which memories to lose as a consequence – the silence disappear with the discarded history but being forced to lose precious history (River?) causes him to ‘fall’ into dark-dr ness. Trying to save him, Clara whispers his name to him, reminding him of who he is (in a manner that won’t involve it being spoken so the audience still won’t know), but inadvertently releases the TimeLock. The Doctor’s underlying theme is then reset from the lonely god of nu-who to TimeLord on the run from his own (newly released and somewhat miffed at being locked away) kind. Which looks back to the setup of old-who, but creates a new dynamic to carry the story forward.
Perhaps not in the right place, because it could touch on the anniversary, but hopefully bonkers enough for all! Touches on a lot of other peoples ideas about dual realities, dark drs etc, apologies for not crediting everyone, but am grateful to you all for warping my imagination!
6 May 2013 at 00:25 #7944@htpbdet – Well, yes, I expect in all likelihood the Fall of the Eleventh will prove to refer to the Eleventh Doctor, but somethings been nagging at me about it, it’s almost too telegraphed. Perhaps just because we were meant to assume fall meant end but it will be something more mundane – a fall in the literal sense maybe (although that wouldn’t be mundane if he falls into a black hole or something).
‘Silence must fall when the question is asked’ I think the quote is? Lots of people falling over in Trenzalore, so I’m guessing some literal, some metaphorical. Maybe it’s not talking about the Silence (species) but about the Doc’s silence (I guess about either the Time War or his departure from Gallifrey, as they are the two key events overshadowing the start of the original series and then the new series).
Was it ever definitely stated that Hartnell was the original doc? I know it’s been inferred into canon by various flashbacks etc, but was there ever any mention after the regen into PT along the lines of ‘Well I’ve never done that before’? If it turned out that there had been more versions prior to Hartnell, MS would fall further down the list, becoming 12th, 13th whatever. Just an odd thought that occurred to me.
5 May 2013 at 20:20 #7915@scaryb, @Shazzbot, @phaseshift – thanks! Hopefully I can pad it out into a bonkers theory succinctly explaining the entire history and future of the doctor purely based on North/South relations. And road signs.
@lula – We’ve always wanted to do a fly drive and see the American South, mainly for the reasons you’ve listed – you’ve got me sold!
5 May 2013 at 09:54 #7842@lula – I think kissing Jenny was just over exuberance on the Doctors part, presumably because of relief at being freed from petrification, rather than any romantic intent. Doc 11 has shown as more alien than 10 when it comes to understanding human emotion and boundaries – his empathy for example seemingly rather inconsistent. Of course, he could just becoming more flirty, thanks to River’s influence rubbing off on him! I wonder if when he’s dropping Clara off, it’s because he’s going visiting River?
Oh, and to give you a completely unbiased 😉 overview of the North/South divide, everything boss about Britain (as we say in these parts) is from the North. The BBC has recently accepted this fact and has moved North. Christopher Eccleston is from the North. Matt Smith is from a town that is named after the North in homage, so we’ve adopted it as our own. David Tennant is from so far North that it becomes a different country and actually has it’s own South. Which is still part of the North. Both North and South Wales are also co-opted for The North, despite Cardiff being further south than large parts of England that are indisputably in the South. This is largely due to the old Celtic kingdoms still being annoyed at having been overrun by Anglo-Saxons from the south east who were desperate to move north around 1500 years ago. The secret desire to move North must still exist today, because all over the South, the road signs all have directions to The North.
4 May 2013 at 23:50 #7826Really enjoyed that. Have always been a bit surprised to see Gatiss named as potential future showrunner, given his previous eps haven’t exactly been consistent (and despite people’s varying views on Moffat’s tenure, there seems to be universal acclaim for his episodes under RTD) but he’s written two cracking stories for this series. Not sure what benefit destroying most of the population held for Mr Sweet, but that aside, it was thoroughly enjoyable.
Another episode after TROA with a religious element. I think an army of clerics may yet be returning. Possibly with River?
Interesting after the discussions about family, parents missing children etc in the JTTCOTT pages to see an episode showing the damage a parent has done by being around. Mothers and daughters again, I’m sure that will be relevant to the mystery of who/what Clara is. Given all the film references we’ve had this year, I’m wondering if we are actually going to get a riff on the Luke/Leia love triangle – but with the Doctor and Jenny being related, not Clara.
Was the ‘monster’ doctor chained up behind a door with a red circular window? Another Dalekification – eye turret reference? And red, of course…
Clara seemed far more assured. Was wondering about Victorian Clara who was happy to follow the doctor and jump on his carriage, versus the current Clara who needs encouragement to follow. Is she finding herself and gaining confidence?
Another reference to how the TARDIS is different now than she used to be. Could this be because the Doctor is finally going where he needs to be, or has Idris given up trying to steer him for some reason? Or just trying to amalgamate the unreliable TARDIS of old-who with the slightly more reliable version of nu-who?
Fall of the 11th – I (and I guess most people) assumed this was referencing the 11th Doc. But what if its the fall of the 11th Cyber Fleet or something?
2 May 2013 at 12:36 #7589@shazzbot – I agree that omega would need more intro into nu-who and would be amazed if we get anymore than a hint in this series, possibly as a trail into the anniversary special at the end of series 7. While I think someone like that is necessary for anniversary gravitas, i can’t see SM winding up all this threads this year coz I haven’t heard any suggestion he’s going anywhere? also, he may just be leaving snippets for whoever does eventually follow him to pick up on just as RTD did.
1 May 2013 at 23:00 #7520The Doctor slowly becoming a mirror to Omega
I like this. A lot. Foreshadowing, or perhaps just a subtle reference to how other people were coming to regard the doctor in a way not dissimilar to how the TimeLords viewed Omega… nice legend but generally a nuisance if he turns up. Ties in with the other mirroring/duplication we’ve been seeing. Although that sets me wondering if the Doctor-enforced absence of the TimeLords has allowed others to deify Omega (and despise the Doctor simultaneously), what with religious armies displaying his name?
@phileasf @juniperfish – John Simm dragged up in End Of Time. Maybe he liked it. And just maybe a career in IT retail finally sated the burning hunger inside him? I’ve got it – The Master has been trying to annoy the Doctor by handing out his phone number to every computer illiterate in London.
@haveyoufedthefish – love the idea of 11 stealing the TARDIS and giving it to 1, delightfully circular. I was wondering with some of the speculation above whether 1 left with Susan for her protection because she was more than just a timelord (to twist on the cartmel plan for the 7th doc). It would presumably involve 11 going back to Gallifrey? I’ve been expecting the Timelock to get unlocked sometime soon, there must be something momentous in the anniversary plot surely (other than what has been officially announced)?
On a similar TARDISy note, the Doctors attitude to her has been interesting – very protective for 3 eps, not taking her into battle in BoSJ, going to great lengths to get a space bike thing in TRoA rather than using his own transport (although I suspect that one was clumsy plotting more than anything), reactivating the HADS in CW – it’s like he’s been expecting something to happen to her, yet his fears seem to have been well founded in JTTCOTT. What was/is he expecting? Was it this almost explosion or something more?
@lula – my sisters nickname, good choice 🙂 American or no, I always wanted Christopher Lloyd to become the Doctor, just to link my favourite childhood film trilogy with my favourite childhood tv show by merging docs! I do agree, John Noble would be a great guest star. Maybe if Omega were ever able to take physical form in this universe again…!?
30 April 2013 at 20:57 #7305@fulcanelli, reading @timeloop ‘s quotes above just set me thinking, and then you made a similar point in the very next post…! Something Clara saw in the Tardis (possibly the toy tardis, perhaps a raggidy doctor reference?) made her connect a character in (one of?) Amelia Williams book(s) to the doctor. ‘You’re mentioned in a book’ wasn’t a reference to the history.
I’m leaning towards the various suggestions above that whatever she saw in the history is related to whoever gave her the doctors phone number – it would naturally be something she’d be curious about, and wouldn’t be shocked to find a reference somewhere as they must presumably have a connection with the doctor – which would explain her lack of reaction. However, I’m not sure it was River. But only because I’m sticking to my theory that Clara being with the doctor now leads to a version of her being a dalek and the Dr becoming dalekised – and that’s why the TARDIS is pushing her away because keeping the doc and Clara separate will prevent that reality (ala the time zombies in this ep). And to me, that would suggest whoever passed on the Docs phone number had a more spiteful agenda. Just no idea who!
30 April 2013 at 00:07 #7218@Shazzbot – thanks! But just realised I failed to use cogitated, so don’t think it will qualify as a great post!
Personally, I love much of what SM has done with the show, but do agree that we need to relate to companions, and that seems to take time in this era. I thought Amy seemed underwritten until Rory was regularly there to give her purpose, but by the end both of them had had some astonishing performances showcasing how they’d feel to lose the other which I think provided the audience with that connection. Clara? She doesn’t seem overly keen on being there at the moment, but doesn’t seem to massively want to be anywhere else either. Perhaps she goes where she knows she’s needed? It’s that Mary Poppins thing again. Or was that Nanny McPhee?!
@blenkinsopthebrave – the more I think about it, the more I’m sure that’s exactly where we’re heading. Almost like SM wants to get to be able to hand over at the end of his stewardship (whenever that may be) saying, there you go, clean slate, I’ve taken the show back to the beginning and you won’t need to worry about continuity (or that pesky 13 regeneration thing), go tell whatever stories you want. Not convinced Clara will turn out to be related to the Doc or the Ponds though. I think she will be an ordinary girl who is made impossible because of the doctor involving himself in her life, but it’s that impossible-ness that has brought her to the Drs attention in the first place. It fits with the kind of loops SM has been playing with throughout.
29 April 2013 at 23:19 #7215Was thinking about the resolution of Time Crash, and wondering if – from a plotting point of view – this is why the dr is losing bits of his memory? Presumably SM doesn’t want another resolution along the lines of, I know what to do coz I watched me do it when I was you. So if by the time we get to the 50th anniversary, 11 is having bigger memory problems, the dramatic tension of finding a solution to whatever situation the Dr(s) face will be that bit greater.
29 April 2013 at 22:52 #7211@bluesqueakpip, @ardaraith… we’ve also noticed there’s been lots of parent/child themes in Moffat’s reign. As well as the examples you mention above, children either without parents or with substitute parental figures are frequent, maybe a mirrored perspective of the childless parents? Clara most recently (wonder if her getting lost as a child is relevant or just a riff on the same theme?), but little Amy seemingly alone in that big house (with her aunt if I remember right?), Melody growing up without parents, governesses substituting for deceased mothers. Dr Simeon? Miss Kizlet?
Parents link to the past, children to the future (red shift blue shift?) – without either, perhaps the doctor has nothing to define his place in the universe, as you said, drifting like a ghost, looking for companions, but any old companion won’t cut it anymore (“I thought she’d be more fun”). I don’t think it was a coincidence that he was at his most settled when he had his new family, in-laws and all.
It’s also a very clear difference from RTDs time when all companions had well established family lives. I’ve always felt SM is trying to move the series back closer to original-who in terms of moving away from the Doctor as all conquering super hero, back to more localised stories, rather than universe under threat, ever greater stakes type things. The TARDIS seems to be getting her eccentricity/unpredictability back, the Doctor feels more alien. I thought perhaps it would culminate with the time lords being re-instated into the universe. However, maybe as has been suggested above it will be more of a tie in with ‘An Unearthly Child’. Some restoration of the Doctors line would make sense of the family themes and give him new purpose.
29 April 2013 at 17:28 #7172Hi all
First post, used to comment occasionally on the Gruniad but generally got there too late, so had to content myself with reading your theories… hope I can assist with the bonkers theorising here a little more often!
Just a couple of thoughts on Clara from this ep:
The more I think about her calm reading and reaction to the (a?) history of the time war ‘So that’s who…’ comment etc, the more it just doesn’t sit right. My initial reaction was that it was about the doctor, possibly related to someone in our history (Merlin came to my mind too – not sure who mentioned it upstream, but that may just be my Arthurian-nerd side coming out). But if it was someone mythological or historical surely the reaction would have been more extreme (Merlin was real!? David Beckham is a 1200 year old timelord!). I’d expect at least a ‘Well I never…’ Which leads me to think whatever she saw/read (and I’m inclined to agree with the speculation above – @phileasf I think, apologies if not – that it was likely to be a picture rather than text) was information she was already looking for. Is she some kind of double agent (Was governess by day, barmaid by night in the Snowmen a hint at dual identity?) or did she find some information that related to her personally?
This however is in complete contrast to my gut instinct that Clara is an ordinary girl that is going to have something awful happen to her, scattering her across time and space . I suspect the Tardis is being difficult with her to protect the doctor – if she doesn’t travel with them, she doesn’t get scattered across time and space, there’s no Os-lek threat in the Asylum so the doctor doesn’t go and get dalekised. Or will the trauma of letting something happen to her again cause him to go dark and fall at Trenzalore?
Anyway, thanks all for picking up details I’d have missed without this website and the Guardian, your sharp eyes and bonkers suggestions have enriched my viewing no end!
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