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  • #12769
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    Time Lord

    @htpbdet

    Hmmm. If I can interject here:

    What do both Madame Kovarian and the Silence try to do? They try to kill the Eleventh Doctor. Kill him in a way that will stop him regenerating.

    Do they? When do they reveal that?

    If you see a problem with the contention that the plan was, in fact, to “Kill him in a way that will stop him regenerating”, can I ask you to explain what alternative you gleaned from Series 6?

    I’m interested.

    #12768
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    Time Lord

    I watched this afternoon, as it’s quiet.

    I think this is a fantastic episode, and clearly is a tale that Moff wanted to do for a long time, returning to it in an expanded form with the story of Amy.

    As a basic setup – the mad introduction between a young girl and the Doctor as he saves her from a monster in her own house. A bewildering exciting encounter with the Doctor which she takes with her to adulthood – a protector against nightmares that even the monsters under the bed are afraid of.

    The interruptions in time, and the young girl growing, remembering it like a dream, the sudden re-acquaintance and the realisation that imaginary friends can be real.

    Reinette: “It is customary, I think, to have an imaginary friend only during one’s childhood. You are to be congratulated on your persistence.”

    Thereafter, the intersection between two lives in a way that only time travel can make possible, the slow path and the fast path.

    Reinette: “How could you be a stranger to me? I’ve known you since I was seven years old.”
    The Doctor: “Yeah. I suppose you have. I came the quick route.”

    And when it comes to the end, as all people do, we have the final message delivered in writing. Many of the criticisms about how Amy and Rory ended their story could be applied here. The Doctor as a Time traveller could surely circumnavigate that problem and revisit her before her death? The problem is that he has just been told he doesn’t.

    I think with Mickey joining Team TARDIS it was a perfect opportunity to see how a three handed crew would operate. You have Rose showing Mickey the ropes, just as Amy did Rory, and echoes of the tensions between them as everyone is a bit unsure of the status quo.

    Tennant’s drunk scene is hilarious, as is “Look what the cat dragged in – the Oncoming Storm” from Billie.

    I love the sense of the absurd as well “There could be anything on this ship” – Sees Horse. Shortly followed by:

    Mickey: “What’s a horse doing on a spaceship?”
    The Doctor: “Mickey, what’s pre-Revolutionary France doing on a spaceship. Get a little perspective.”

    You can easily see those lines being performed by Eleven and Rory.

    I think it has that fairytale feel to it in a way.I love the production design, and the clockwork droids are stunningly beautiful. And then we have the name reference.

    Reinette: “Doctor. Doctor who? It’s more than just a secret, isn’t it?”

    It’s funny that the early fiftieth century has almost become a touchstone reference point for Moff. Jack was from that era, the ship here is, Silence is set around that time, and so therefore much of the future River plotline.

    Really enjoyed watching it again.

    #12747
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    Time Lord

    Just to keep you amused, this is from “Doctor Who at 40” – the Tom Baker special. It’s only 10 minutes, and the end bit talks about the story that had been voted to be shown – Pyramids of Mars.

    It does feature the lovely Liz Sladen and Louise Jamieson talking about the era as well as a few others.

    #12742
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    Time Lord

    @arkleseizure

    I’d certainly agree with you on all points. I mentioned a couple of points about stories in the Sixth Doctor era I hated, and Saward was responsible. In an era so misconceived, I really should have mentioned him be name. Many thanks.

    I along strongly believe (sorry @scaryb) that attempts to separate Colin from responsibility for the sixth Doctor shouldn’t really wash. He worked on developing that character, is quite proud of it, and therefore we should approach it from that viewpoint. The scripts were bad, but they were based on taking the character in that peculiar direction.

    @bluesqueakpip

    The main reason I find her accent funny is that it’s inconsistent and really is a caricature of “broad OZ”, something Janet cheerfully admits makes her wince. It’s like hearing someone attempting a strong regional accent from the UK, and going really over the top. It’s because her own accent is so mild I guess, and she was asked to harden it.

    #12734
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    Time Lord

    @Shazzbot

    I find Tegans accent really funny, but it amazed me when I discovered Janet Fielding has a massive following in Oz. Frazer Hines, who played Jamie is actually from Horsforth in Leeds, believe it or not (hence years in Emmerdale when it was Emmerdale Farm).

    I’ve watched the other two now, and they are really good introductions to those years. I was surprised they didn’t mention Susan leaving in the First Doctor one though, as it’s quite a big moment. Great that they picked The Aztecs to show though.

    @craig

    Yes, that was nice to view after writing that. If I’d seen it before, I would have had to rewrite my own in a way, because so much of it seemed similar (Tennant talking about a great double act with Jon, etc).

    My parents found it odd the people I enthused about as a child. I mentioned watching “Belles of St. Trianians” as a kid and seeing Roger, and that was due to a fascination with Alastair Sim.

    #12721
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    Time Lord

    Thanks @whisht. I sneaked that one in when everyones attention was elsewhere 🙂

    I commend you on your purchases. Those Star Wars figures were absolutely massive when we were young ‘uns.

    #12719
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    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    They are good points about the Valeyard and 12 regenerations. They are “writers traps” establsihed long ago for future writers (things that some aspects of fandom seem to expect to be accommodated). In a run that has been largely self contained, Trenzalore is another one. Another fact that some may wish to add to “The Bumper Book of Facts we know about the Doctor” – He dies/died at Trenzalore.

    So if Moffat sacrifices the end point he establishes (the death point of the Doctor) by somehow rewriting the Doctors future, perhaps that gives him freedom to sacrifice all those other future expectations as well (Valeyard, Regeneration limit, etc.) and leave the Doctor, as we suggested long ago – reset in a way. Every regeneration a chance, driving forward with no expectations. That would certainly be a birthday gift for the Doctor.

    #12716
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    Time Lord

    Many thanks for digging those up @craig, I’ve just watched the Third and Fifth Doctor ones, and will save the first two for tomorrow morning I think. They are actually better than I was expecting. Some good talking head contributions as well, which is nice.

    I’ve actually got links for all the Doctor Who at 40 shorts on each of the Doctors as well, and I was wondering about posting them at some point.

    @shazzbot

    Ahhh Mr. Waterhouse. Watch the BFI Panel footage of the TARDIS team together higher above and you may get a realistic appraisal of how the others view him. I’ve you’ve watched that though, you now get the joke in Crimson Horror about “trying to get a gobby Australian to Heathrow airport”.

    #12714
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    Time Lord

    The BBC have released a short video of Matt Smith thanking various people, including the fans for his time on the show.

    #12691
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    Time Lord

    My introduction to the character of the Master came through some of the early novelisations, particularly The Daemons and Doomsday Weapon (televised as Colony in Space). They were fun reads, and I was really interested in this character who was meant to be the equal of the Doctor in many ways. It was only when Doctor Who Weekly started years later that I saw a picture of Roger Delgado in a “Unit Fact File” – a page profile of the character and actor who played him. The picture amazed me – that had to be the Master I’d read about. I also discovered the actor was dead and I can remember being really saddened for a reason I couldn’t put my finger on.

    Armed with a very striking face to ponder on, I suddenly started to realise I’d seen him before. He was a guest star in the re-runs of The Avengers, The Champions, Randall and Hopkirk Deceased and many other shows that were on my favourite list.

    One day, when watching the film Belles of St. Trinian’s, I said, knowledgably, to my dad – “look – it’s Roger Delgado, from Doctor Who”. My dad looked up. “Ohhh yes. He was in Quatermass, you know. A reporter”. “Not – THE PIT?” (Quatermass and the Pit deserved capitalisation in our household. Something of legend to young me, due to stories abou it from my father). “No”, he said, “the one with the domes. He got killed.”

    I shrugged philosophically. Not in “THE PIT”, but still in Quatermass. The man had to have been some sort of acting legend to appear in so many good shows.

    I was thirteen before I actually got to see Delgado as The Master in a celebratory showing of The Daemons. It was brilliant and he actually surpassed what in retrospect were some pretty high expectations. I watched all his stuff over the next 10 years as it gradually became available on VHS. Only eight stories in total, but well worth the wait even if a couple are pretty flawed. Like the Doctor himself, sometimes the guests can overcome poor material to deliver a performance that makes them worth watching.

    The character was introduced in Series 8, Terror of the Autons, along with new companion Jo Grant and UNIT character Mike Yates. It’s a great intro for Jo and the Master, as he allies himself with the Nestene consciousness, and their Auton servants for their second invasion attempt.

    The battle between the Doctor and Master continued throughout that series, with The Master harnessing a mind parasite in a prison to gather physchic forces to force an atomic war on the humans (Mind of Evil). I really like this story, and am looking forward to seeing it finally restored in full colour on DVD. The Claws of Axos, I seem to have enjoyed more than others, but Colony in Space, as a story, was better served by the book I think. It’s very interesting – a communal colony who have escaped a polluted earth come into conflict with a corporation that wants to strip mine and exploit the planet. Underneath the surface is an ancient weapon the Master seeks, in his guise as a galactic arbitrator. The production values and pacing let down a good story. The season finished on The Daemons which I’ve always found engaging. Not only because of Delgado, but the fact this is a story for people like John Levene (Seargeant Benton) to shine.

    At the end of the story, our hero is led away in chains – incarcerated by UNIT.

    In Season 9, after a couple of stories in future and off-planet, we find the Master in prison, but like the trooper he is, still plotting. The time in conjunction with The Sea Devils, those aquatic cousins of the Silurians. Another story which I thoroughly enjoy. Not least for the scene where Delgado enjoys the Clangers. He escaped the resulting carnage of course, and laid low for a story before trying to trap Kronos the Chronovore in The Time Monster. Delgado is in it. That’s the best thing I can say about it, apart from some humorous references to how the Doctor and Master used to sabotage each others experiments in the Academy.

    In the middle of Season 10, with the Doctor free to roam the Universe again, the final appearance is in Frontier in Space. It’s a difficult story. The end was cocked up spectacularly. Film was lost, they couldn’t re-shoot and the Master just well – disappears. There is still stuff to enjoy. I loved the idea of the Master trying to engineer two great empires (Earth and Draconia) into war. Loved the design of the Draconians themselves (the modern Silurians owe a lot to them). Loved the reveal that the Daleks were behind this plan…. But ultimately it feels like what it is. A lead in to Planet of the Daleks, a story in which everything you’ve seen doesn’t really have any resonance anymore.

    Throughout these stories, Delgado becomes a binding force. The person on screen you are drawn to whenever he appears. It’s a graceful and charming villain. Largely, as the script said, he avoided melodrama but when he did do it (as in some extracts in The Daemons) he plays it as a performance to his devotees. You, as the audience, are in on the joke. He was sensational in his time, in that he was a sensation. The BBC production team were used to receiving letters from children addressed to The Doctor. Now they had a mail sack for The Master as well. Kids wrote to him c/o the BBC to ask him to mend his ways and join the Doctor on his adventures and free him from his exile. Those kids knew a good double act when they saw it, because Roger always seemed to make Jon better – as an actor and a Doctor. Natural chemistry perhaps, because they became good friends. His Master was a hard villain to dislike. Willing to act the fool on occasion. Or reveal frustration, petulance, jealousy, humour and charm. Much like the Doctor.

    Delgado had agreed to one more appearance in a cunning wheeze. He and Jon would leave together in The Final Game, a story which would see the Third Doctor regenerate. Many fan legends surround this – that it would be revealed that the Doctor and he were brothers, that they were Ying-Yang of the same person. All utter bullshit of course.

    The Final Game would have seen an alien incursion organised by the Master in which a time/dimesional portal was activated. To deactivate the portal whoever ventured into it would be exposed to radiation. The Doctor tries, and collapses. The Master pushes him aside, saving him (he would regenerate) but leaving the question – did the Master seek to save the Doctor or merely possess the power source that created the rift. Both would die, but with the potential to return in another form. You can see elements of that scenario in End of Time, but it’s explored more thoroughly in the Mark Gatiss Third Doctor novel Last of the Gaderene.

    Delgado’s tragic death in Turkey in a road accident robbed us of that ending, and much more I feel. He was being noticed and had many projects on his schedule. Had he lived I think he would have been an even more successful character actor of note later in life.

    I don’t think any actor who has portrayed the character since has come near to this Charming villain. To say that Derek Jacobi in Utopia portrays some of the elements I see in Delgado is, in my mind, a compliment. I think Jacobi, combining the outward charm of Yana, and the seething hate as he became the Master would have nailed it completely for a modern era, but we didn’t have the time.

    So – All hail Roger Delgado. The true Master, and rocking Black Sabbath devotee (OK –I made that last one up).

    #12690
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    Time Lord

    Peoples of the Forum, please attend. We control the horizontal. We control the vertical. We… oh, wrong show. We interrupt this celebration of an ill-dressed oaf to present a subject which demands your admiration and respect.

    Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks defined the character of the Master in this Document.

    IMPORTANT NOTE:
    The Master has a chameleon like ability to adapt to any society in which he finds himself. He will therefore be completely natural and convincing in his various human roles. He must not be written as a moustache twirling villain of melodrama, or given melodramatic dialogue; If anything his evil quality should be underplayed, though never forgotten

    One Roger Caesar Marius Bernard de Delgado Torres Castillo Roberto (Roger Delgado) was selected to play him. Tuesday 18th June 2013 saw the 40th anniversary of his death.

    #12599
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    Time Lord

    @wolfweed @htpbdet

    I love the sense of outrage Levine is summoning there.

    “People at the BBC may not have been telling me the truth”, exclaims man who recently leaked the news of Matt Smiths departure.

    Now that one is “take the biscuit” territory.

    I’ll wait for an official announcement. 🙂

    #12598
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    Time Lord

    @htpbdet

    I didn’t mean there was any specific reference to memories, because, like you, I don’t think there were in Name of the Doctor.

    It was a genuine question – I couldn’t remember anything, but when you responded it seemed to indicate you thought she had access to his memories. Viewing his physical existence and sharing his memories are very different things, and memories would have discounted the idea to a certain extent.

    If Clara can see him now, are you saying that is because the Doctor is there with her and opening up access to his suppressed memory? That makes sense I think.

    Hmmm. Back to memories. No – what I’m suggesting is that if you take the Doctors timeline, his actual physical existence and split it up into incarnations, periods composed of the years of his life, then some of those years took place in the Timewar. Everything about that period is timelocked, according to Journeys end. Presumably even those years of the Doctors life that existed in it. So, to me, that’s a good reason that, having supposedly viewed his life – past, present and future via his “time-track”, Clara couldn’t see this one. He remembers it – every action, but she couldn’t see the parts of his life that are time-locked. I can’t think of any other event that fits the bill.

    An event that has been largely ignored in SMs run until the book turned up in JttCotT. 😉

    #12540
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    Time Lord

    @htpbdet

    but not the memories. Lots of people remember the Time War even though its sealed.

    I’m not sure what memories have to do with this really, unless you spotted some reference to it in “Name of the Doctor”.

    Sure, the Doctor will remember everything about it, but Clara jumps into his personal twisty “time tunnel” From Gallifrey to Trenzalore. She’d have access to most, but the parts of his life that exist in the Time War? I think his existence and actions in it would be subject to the Time Lock. I don’t think there is any reference to her having his memories.

    Does the History of the Time War identify the Doctor’s name?

    Clara: “I don’t want to forget. Not all of it. The library. I saw it. You were mentioned in a book.”
    The Doctor: “I’m mentioned in a lot of books.”
    Clara: “You call yourself Doctor. Why do you do that? You have a name, I’ve seen it. In one corner of that tiny–“
    The Doctor: “If I rewrite today you won’t remember. You won’t go looking for my name.”

    I think if anyone wants to look for holes, you can argue that this is left ambiguous, but in conjunction with Clara’s “So that’s who” as she reads the Time War book, she learns the name from the book. The Doctor warns her not to go looking for his name. I think NotD gives us the reason for this. The person who wears this name isn’t “The Doctor” to his mind.

    #12537
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    Time Lord

    @shazzbot

    You may have to live with that at the moment. I’ve shifted mutiple comments from the News to Next Doctor thread, and posted a link on the News page. The Activity thread will still show the original post, and it’s not something I can change. Similar happens when comments have been moved to the Spoiler section on request.

    #12535
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    Time Lord

    For the sake of sanity, can we keep the next Doctor speculation stories to the Next Doctor thread?

    All comments have been moved to it.

    http://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/the-next-doctor/page/9/

    #12531
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    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip

    Agreed, and done.

    @chickenelly, @janetteb, @htpbdet

    Apologies, but we may as well have the conversations on this thread.

    #12524
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    Time Lord

    @shazzbot

    That probably answers the question on its usefulness 🙂

    If you click on your name and get your profile page, it’s that box at the top that says “What’s new username”. It posts a comment into the activity stream as an “Update”, but not into any specific thread (hence only @craig can delete it, not a Mod). If you scroll down the activity stream at the moment, you’ll see the effect.

    #12520
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    Time Lord

    Hi @craig, I was going to PM you, but thought I’d make a post asking for general feedback.

    I just noticed another spammer abusing the update function. I can’t access those to delete.

    I’ve never seen an active member make good use of the function (I seem to remember someone signed up to update us with the vital news of “how they were getting their feels on for 10 and Rose”) and it seems to attract spammers.

    If it’s an easy job, and a separate component could we disable this? Either by removing the input box or the the underlying script?

    After that I can delete any spam that gets posted into the threads.

    If anyone has strong feelings about missing the function, I’m happy to be corrected.

    #12509
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    Time Lord

    @wolfweed

    Ha thanks for that. I knew really, because something identical happened in the 40th anniversary year. It’s probably the same guy!

    Talking of buggers – the Guardian now have collapsible threads. Even more ways to ignore comments!

    #12508
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    Time Lord

    @jimthefish

    Not joining in the spoiler section, but I agree with Doctor Hurt being between 8 and 9. My reasoning is:

    • The Book of the Time War presents the Doctors name. Maybe the reason it does that is to separate the identity of the incarnation who didn’t do things “in the name of the Doctor”.
    • Clara thinks she’s seen eleven incarnations in his Time Line, but not this one. But from references in Stolen Earth/Journey’s End when they discuss the Time War, everything about the Time War was “Time Locked”. Surely that means the whole run, hence how Caan was able to rescue Davros and his ship from its fate. Therefore whatever aspects of the Doctors Timeline that fought in the war are still there.

    So perhaps this intervention and counter-intervention by the GI and Clara somehow altered events to allow some seepage of this personality (maybe by subtlety altering the Time Lock?

    The Zygons I think are pure distraction, like publicity shots of the Cybermen in “A good man…” Tennant really likes them and I can imagine a dangling carrot of “we’ll throw in a Zygon scene” could make all the difference. 🙂

    I’d like to think the 50th is more likely to be an expansion of “what it is to be the Doctor”. With the announcement for Matt’s end in the Christmas Special, we joked about “Twelfth Night” as a potential title, but that would work if there is some sort of reconciliation for a missing Doctor. Eleven becomes Twelve, and Twelfth Night sees the close of his run.

    #12494
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    Time Lord

    @chickenelly – yes, it’s a funny one that. He appeared in different roles in three of that Unbound series.

    + @shazzbot

    Not sure about Rebecca. She seems too calm and laid back in most roles I’ve seen her in. I didn’t think Arabella was that bad in the audio play she did, although the story she was in “Exile” was a bit too deliberately farcical for my tastes.

    That Doctor Who series “Unbound” was intriguing though. It’s deliberately non-canon, presenting potential alternative Doctors past, present and future, and is kind of the idea that @blenkinsopthebrave mentioned of lots of alternatives.

    So as the Doctor you have Geoffrey Bayldon, David Warner, David Collings, Derek Jacobi and Arabella. Michael Jayston returns to his Valeyard role to take centre stage in “He Jests at Scars…”, which would be excellent if it wasn’t for Bonnie Langford. Carole Ann Ford and Nicholas Courtney show up as alternative versions of Susan and Lethbridge Stewart. It’s all quite fun.

    #12493
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    Time Lord

    It’s a times like this I want to summon the spirit of Senator Vreenak in ST: DS9

    “It’s a faaaaaake”. Wise words.

    Massive backtracking on the missing episode rumour story.


    http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/06/17/more-on-those-missing-doctor-who-episodes-or-less/

    Very much “business as usual”.

    #12456
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    Time Lord

    Heh. I was looking for a video clip of something, and came across this, which is quite funny. Back in 2003, UK Gold was doing the anniversary thing rather than the BBC. Interest had been increased because it was only a couple of months since the announcement that the BBC was bringing it back in 2005.

    This short feature was on a female Doctor done for Big Finish. Arabella Weir was the Doctor. What’s quite entertaining is that she mentions a friend in the biz who was hugely excited for her. He appeared in the audio and in this clip. One David Tennant who was her Lodger once upon a time.

    #12451
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    Time Lord

    @bluesqueakpip @craig @chickenelly

    To be honest, I just didn’t want to race ahead, so thought I’d ask.

    I honestly think the BBC have just squandered a massive opportunity. In “Name of the Doctor” you had Hartnell, Tom Baker, McCoy in clear view and representations of the others. Anyone with a brain cell should have thought “What a perfect opportunity to show some old stuff and helpfully point out where they can find more – for cash”.

    We know that BBC America have some mini-documentaries for each Doctor. It really wouldn’t have taken much effort to capitalise on that. Ah well.

    #12429
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    Time Lord

    @shazzbot

    Yes, there are lots of rumours, but I can’t say I’m that interested in them to be honest. The only thing that seems certain is that Tennant had signed on as Ten well before Rose was broadcast. He knew he’d be doing a regeneration scene, and that may have been it if it had flopped.

    When CE was announced it astonished many. It was a brilliant move because it seemed like a statement of intent for some reason. He was a big serious actor with TV series aplenty (Cracker comes to mind) and movies (Shallow Grave, et al). The problem is, he’s one of those private actors who doesn’t particularly like to promo circuit, and it was always going to be difficult to get him to sell the series in the same way that Tennant and Smith have since.

    Ultimately, I think it did work and he deserves a lot of praise for taking the part because I can’t help thinking a lot of people would have been telling him he’d made a mistake. I think the same applies for a lot of the guest stars for the first series (Richard Wilson here, Simon Callow, Simon Pegg and many more) who came in and were pretty damn good. Now it’s taken almost for granted that the series can attract big names. Back then, it still had a lot of late 80s baggage and preconceptions hanging around its neck.

    #12424
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    Time Lord

    @htpbdet

    I think maintaining my sense of disbelief is more healthy considering how many of these rumours I’ve read over the years. It’s far better to be pleasantly surprised by being proved wrong. 😉

    #12423
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    Time Lord

    @arkleseizure

    By the way, why did they keep doing this? Doctor Who, at least then, was supposed to be episodic. Another sign, I suppose, that when they were making the early home videos, the BBC just didn’t understand Doctor Who.

    Ahhh – you remember those early Vid releases as well!?

    I actually met someone once who was involved at the time. Basically it was a tale of market research gone spectacularly wrong. When the BBC looked to release tapes, advice came from the major distributors which were the rental outlets (it’s hard to remember that in 85/86 the rental market was massive in comparison to people buying tapes). So they launched thinking it was based on sound research that presenting them as “movies” would increase uptake. Although I prefer my DVD of Robots of Death (in episodic form), I thought the VHS of the series actually made a cracking 90 minute feature on video. The longer stories really were difficult going though, and didn’t have the same feel (Sea Devils for instance).

    #12421
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    Time Lord

    I seem to be keener on Eccleston than many, but I’m not one of those who wished he’d stayed on longer than he did any more. That’s largely because I think they did a superb job in bringing the show back, and in the space of a thirteen episode run introduce a new audience to every important characteristic of Doctor Who, including the excitement of regeneration. While at the same time introducing new concepts like the Timewar that both simplified the backstory, but presented something new for older fans.

    A tricky job well done.

    To answer a question now that @shazzbot put to me on the Faces thread, I do find Eccleston charming in the role, and these two episodes really bring out that side in him. I love the scene in the nightclub and his look of cheerful bewilderment at the reaction to his “stupid” question “has anything fallen from the sky recently?”.

    The flirting between Rose, The Doctor and Jack still makes me laugh. It’s just so lightly done

    Rose: “Actually, Doctor, I thought Jack might like this dance.”
    The Doctor: “I’m sure he would Rose. I’m absolutely certain. But who with?”

    Although the parent-child relationship and name have become something since, here I don’t think it signifies much itself. Here, I think, Moff is a “man without a plan”. He tells a cracking story that lashings of atmosphere, and is writing for someone else’s arc. His introduction of a character that he and RTD worked hard on wins the day, and John is on his best form as Jack here. No-one knew at this point if the series would be a success, so it’s difficult to believe Moffat was planting any seeds of what was to come.

    I can still see why it won the Hugo that year. It was up against Fathers Day, Dalek and Battlestar Galactica.

    I can’t help but think that if, in 2002, someone had said to me that two of the biggest TV events in 2005 were to be relaunched series with the titles Battlestar Galactica and Doctor Who I would have laughed my head off and asked for some of whatever they were smoking. I would have been even happier to have been proved wrong.

    #12418
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    Time Lord

    @shazzbot

    That was you?! I didn’t stop until I reached John o’ Groats! 😆

    #12416
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    Time Lord

    Hi @danmartinuk

    Ooohhhh gossip!? I heard before the event the guests were just confirmed as Frazer and Tony Selby. I guessed Colin had priced himself out of the market.

    Quick question if you don’t mind. On one of your articles earlier in the year I seem to remember you mentioning rumours that the BBC had unearthed some old episodes. I hadn’t heard those at the time, but rumours seem to be all over the place at the moment.

    I just wondered if this was what you were talking about? I absolutely love the idea this has happened and therefore don’t believe it for a second. Some of the serials mentioned (Evil of the Daleks being one), weren’t even sold in Africa to my knowledge.

    #12415
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    Time Lord

    @scaryb

    Hi. I’m not too sure about what the friendship funxtion actually does in all honesty, but you don’t need to be friends to send a PM (you contacted me once yourself ages ago on another issue, if you remember).

    I’m a bit bemused by the friendship requests sent out. I’m not used to social media. I keep thinking what this would be like in real life – being approached by someone in the street you’ve never met before, who says nothing and just waves a placard in your face with “I WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND” on it.

    Honestly – you’d run a mile wouldn’t you?

    If @Chameleon4rch would like to make an actual post and explain why they want so many “friends” I’m sure we’d all be fascinated.

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    @shazzbot

    Apologies for singling you out, I just think you may have articulated why you had reservations about dipping in the BG era pretty well on the Faces thread.

    + @miapatrick

    I think there is a lot to fascinate about this era. When I wrote my praise of the Paternoster Gang, I wrote that the Victorian era is a pretty good one to tell stories that can reflect modern concerns.

    I smiled a lot at Jago’s reference to newspaper reporters from “Grub Street”. When we have had the Leveson enquiry into press standards, it really does leap out at you. It was widely believed by the Police at the time (and by researchers since) that one of the letters “The Ripper” allegedly sent the Police originated in Fleet Street to keep the story going.

    The Police at the time were the first kind of Bobby we’d recognise, and preferable to what came before, but Robert Peel’s creation was institutionally racist (and very class conscious), with crimes involving “immigrant” populations barely investigated for the most part.

    As to the Chinese population, even those who led completely blameless lives had probably had contact with their own criminal underworld, as they were involved in people shipping and drugs. It led to particularly closed pockets of society with most gaining menial jobs. The wall of silence (party through language, and partly through fear) meant that places like Limehouse (as referenced) were pretty hard places to investigate.

    In all honesty this is, I think, a pretty good honest presentation of that time and place.

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    @dontplaywithfood

    If your only purpose in joining is to post pretty meaningless and irrelevant video clips in threads, I can assure you that I can delete them far quicker than you can post them, and your presence here is likely to be short lived. We have a music thread for Videos and appropriate threads to discuss The Crimson Horror.

    Posts can actually be constructed from words to form arguments with which to engage others in conversation.

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    @chickenelly – Can you believe six episodes? How did we cope?

     

     

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    @wolfweed

    Yep – Opium gags, lit Cigars, and offering hard liquor to Casey. You just know you are back in the 70s! There is a great interview with Hincliffe in which he confesses if he didn’t get an incandescent irate letter from Mary Whitehouse during a series he thought he wasn’t doing his job. There was a sweepstake about what would annoy her in coming episodes.

    I’d completely forgot about Dudley Simpson being on screen until you mentioned it.

    Working on something else I was reminded about one of the “Missing Adventure” books that showed how “The Doctor” was supposed to aquire his costume here. “Evolution” by John Peel. Great fun with The Doctor working in cnojunction with a young Doctor/aspiring writer called Arthur Conan Doyle investigating hybrid humans. May be available in some good second hand bookshops.

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    Quick question for @bluesqueakpip – Where we doing one episode or the entire story? I can probably fit in both this weekend, but if we prefer one a week that’s what I’ll watch. Cheers.

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    You know, even as a seven year old, I seem to remember understanding the theatre part of it really well. My parents used to watch “The Good Old Days” on TV pretty regularly which tried to recreate the music hall atmosphere of the time in period dress. I’d always enjoyed the really peculiar way the compares would introduce the acts, using the most outrageous language possible, so Jago was a character I seemed immediately to like. Christopher Benjamin appeared in “Unicorn and the Wasp” in the PG series.

    I love the foggy, dirty way Victorian London is portrayed here. I suppose it’s pretty much a cliché in itself, but works. It serves the macabre story “Talons” is as much as the fairytale Victorian London serves “The Snowmen”.

    After the minor controversy of the Eleventh Doctor leaving his TARDIS door open in series 7, here the fourth shows the way. He leaves it open, and when he walks back past it, it’s shut! Obviously some fiendish time-close mechanism. I love the relationship between Leela and the Doctor, and basically Leela being Leela.

    “You can’t go around wearing skins in Victorian London – you’ll frighten the horses!” “When we arrived she was trying to strangle him with his own pig tail” – “Girlish enthusiasm?”
    “PUT OUR PRISONER TO THE TORTURE!”.

    I still find the dummy, Mr. Sin, a really creepy presence. He was played by Deep Roy, who played all the “Oompa Loompa”s in Tim Burtons “Charlie and the Chocolate factory”. It’s really weird hearing a casual opium gag on TV, when the girl is levitated – Mr Sin “She has been smoking pipe of poppy”.

    Big elephant in the room – the portrayal of Chang by John Bennett. I’m noting it in passing because it’s one of the aspects that is forever trotted out to suggest Doctor Who is racist. Putting aside modern sensibilities, I enjoyed his performance then and now, although, yes, the dialect is odd. There are many apocryphal stories about the casting, From the unlikely “art imitating life” (a couple of famous magicians on the Victorian circuit went “Yellow-Face” to channel the wonder and mystery of the Orient) to the mundane explanation that casting couldn’t source an authentic actor of the right age. Nobody knows for sure, which is why it’s a bit of a dead end argument.

    Giant RAT – OMG indeed!

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    @curvedspace No problems with timing at all. Glad you decided to jump in. I’ve had to watch this early myself as I’ve just discovered I’d miss the old scheduled time spot after all for phone calls!

    I don’t know if it’s just the fact that I grew up with this one, but the title sequence seems just so doom laden after you are used to the modern era interpretations (or the ones in the eighties, which I’m sure you’ll get to in time).

    Older people (and occasionally even younger) still say “That takes the biscuit”. I’m sure I remember reading that it came from a period, where if a party of people were offered a tray with the last biscuit on, you’d have to be surprisingly impolite to actually take it. Hopefully someone will correct me if I’m wrong!

    I’ll agree with you on the husband, but the old woman (or “ghoul” in the credits) I genuinly love. Those lines – “Enough to make a horse sick” and “In all my puff”. Reminds me of a mad aunt (“The Witch”) I used to have.

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    Thanks @craig, and have a good weekend. The reason I suggested “Talons” is that it’s pretty well recognised as a great story, and has featured in many of our personal “Top50s” (certainly mine and @htpbdet s). I think many of our newer viewers may be in the situation that @shazzbot suggested. Interested, but slightly concerned by jokes about production values.

    This then is an experiment, for anyone interested. I’ll be watching at its scheduled time of 5:30pm, but feel free to watch whenever you like. Taking an episode a week (seriously old school) to begin with. It would be really interesting to hear comments from people who may not have watched it since broadcast or who have never seen it before.

    The only backstory that may require explanation is a quick note about Leela. Leela was born on another planet colonised by humans in the future whose society had reverted to a more primitive level. She’s a hunter, living by her wits and instincts. She’s handy with knife, crossbow, unarmed combat and Janis Thorn (a toxic and paralysing plant from her own world).

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    Hah – just saw your comment on the G @jimthefish

    Just to prove that “teeny, tiny little trains” can be every bit as thrilling as the full sized variety, here are Steed and Mrs Peel in “The Undertakers”. 😉

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj8lm2MAvUU

    #12264
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    Over on the Guardian, DanMartinUK is celebrating The Deadly Assassin.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jun/14/deadly-assassin-doctor-who-classic-episode

    I just noticed the next one he intends to feature is Talons of Weng Chiang, so it kind of works if we went with that as the first BG episode (although at an ep a week, his review will be up well before we finish!).

    I also think it would be good because there are a couple of references people may pick up on if we are watching Empty Child/Doctor Dances. As for other BG episodes, it would be good to pick ones that may have relevence to Moffat era/anniversaries. Certainly as we approach the 50th it would be good to jontly watch Unearthly Child if possible.

    Welcome Back @htpbdet

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    @craig

    I’d go for the weekend, and try to make it a regular fixture. At 25 mins an episode it’s not a massive investment in time. It may give the oppotunity for people who are just looking at the site infrequently to express an interest.

    #12224
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    @craig

    I remember it well. I think it was Talons you mentioned at the time.

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    @bluesqueakpip @scaryb @janetteb @whisht (and anyone else)

    I’d be up for the rewatch idea if you went ahead with it (but may be missing for a period of weeks over the coming months).

    One idea I had though regarding the BG series was to take one story, and if enough new watchers were interested, do an experiment at watching it at the pace it was intended (one episode per week) and see what the reaction is. I realise many people don’t have access to DVDs and other stuff, but there are YouTube sites with a few great stories on in segments. Robots of Death, Talons, Curse of Fenric, etc. I normally don’t advocate breaking copyright, but I;m beginning to suspect the BBC isn’t going to be showing much classic stuff.

    Anyone interested in this idea? We could take a few weeks to decide on story, and if anyone wants to purchase the DVD in advance, they could do so.

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    @plymouthherald

    Thanks for that link. It’s everything I love about local newspapers. The slightly desperate air of trying to work out a local angle on a national story! The determination by someone to truly do justice to a really bad idea!

    Only capped by the two comments in the thread below that make you wonder – If you found yourself posting troll standard comments on a local newspaper like that, wouldn’t you really consider when your life started going wrong?

    Marvellous, marvellous stuff.

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    @scaryb

    I think I’ll leave it next time we are in this position. Expand the article, make a spurious “infographic” showing Doctors per 1,000,000 inhabitants for the regions, put in a couple of “anonymous quotes” (“why can’t Welsh children have a genocidal role model?”) before making it a post, and ask people to nominate their favourite Welsh actors in the comments section.

    Then I’d ask everyone just to post a link on any of the many, many threads they have access to “Some interesting names on here….” or “I realise this was raised as a joke, but…..” and see if it could become “a thing”. I’d probably ask Dan if he could namecheck it in a throwaway manner in one of his posts (“should the next Doctor even be Welsh”). It would just be interesting to see what the uptake and reaction would be. I don’t do or understand social media, but anyone who does who frequents the forum who wants to play would certainly have my blessing to create #doctormustbewelsh or whatever.

    Of course, in the unlikely event they cast someone Welsh, I’ll have to think of another “issue”.

    @janetteb

    A convert! Rhys Ifans was largely a joke based on that recent interview with a Times journo. Brydon wouldn’t do it, but I think his comedy characters are really interesting. Very convivial on the face of it but with hidden depths that you can only speculate about. To be honest, it was his performance as Uncle Bryn in “Gavin and Stacey” that made me watch the programme.

    I’ve never been very good at working out what people find fanciable in men, but I can assure you I went to see Brydon in Scarborough doing his one man show. Very funny, but I was astonished at his female following. Ages from teenagers to grandmothers made up a good 70% of the audience. There was a great deal of light hearted knicker throwing going on.

    @timeloop

    In fairness, all the Catholics I know would have laughed at the black smoke gag. Then they would have felt immense guilt.

    #12119
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    @scaryb

    esp the question that suggested approx 20% of people thought it was important the Dr is English actor. Considering that 2 of them have been Scottish!

    Yes, funny wasn’t it? I’m beginning to wonder if it’s too late in the day to see if we can’t start a new “Doctor Who regeneration rage” meme?

    Doctor Who is “thunderously” regionalist says Doctor Who Forum

    The Doctor Who Forum has reviewed the hysterical press speculation regarding the Next Doctor. Worthy causes such as “the next Doctor should be a woman” and “the next Doctor should be black” have been mentioned, but our blood has boiled for our Celtic cousins as a huge injustice has been omitted. The next Doctor should obviously be Welsh.

    Despite being centred and filmed in Cardiff, the programme itself is clearly anti-Welsh. Let’s look at the evidence:

    No Welsh actor has ever been cast as the Doctor. A huge injustice considering we have 2 Scots and 9 English Actors.

    Welsh actors are regularly used as evil characters. Yes, some of our brightest acting talent has fallen into the trap of portraying the Welsh as evil fiends. A continuing form of propaganda since the Roman invasion of these isles. Michael Sheen as the voice of “House”, Jonathan Pryce as an ineffectual Master? Philip Madoc was cast as a villain in three stories, and as an amoral character in the Dalek Invasion of Earth film!

    Welsh stereotypes. The Welsh are only good for drilling and mining (“The Green Death”, “Cold Blood”), sing a lot (“A Christmas Carol”) and make stupid decisions like shooting harmless Silurians or being easily captured by them. These crass stereotypes must stop!

    We therefore present an all Welsh lineup for your consideration:

    The Time Lord Chameleon – Michael Sheen An actor who could deliver a complex Doctor by being each of his predecessors in turn, and something else at the same time.

    The Dangerous Doctor – Rhys Ifans A darker Doctor for darker times. May let the PR machine down by reducing journalists to tears if they ask him “which was your favourite Doctor”.

    The Cosmic Joker – Rob Brydon His convivial easy going charm may mask a dark obsessive madness. Keep him away from Ronnie Corbett impersonations, and he’d be great.

    The Rising Star – Iwan Rheon As Simon in Misfits, he was a hit, and dealt with a very timey-wimey plot to boot!

    The Unknown – Aneurin Jones An actor so unknown that we’ve made him up for this article!

    SORT IT OUT BBC!

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    @bluesqueakpip

    Yes – I think it will be going above and beyond the call of duty for Jenna at the moment and until the next Doctor is announced.

    I watched her meeting with the Queen yesterday and was astonished when she said that the Queen was just about the only person who hadn’t asked her who the next Doctor would be.

    Mrs Phaseshift had to remind me that, as a die hard fan, she would have been briefed on such an important matter of state during one of her regular meetings with the Prime Minister (“I regret to inform Your Majesty that black smoke still rises above the offices of BBC Cardiff….”) 😀

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    @bluesqueakpip

    Brilliant isn’t it? It’s even funnier that I got to the results through an article in the New Statesman that profiles the choices by political affiliation (wrongly in some cases).

    http://www.newstatesman.com/broadcast/2013/06/lib-dems-jon-pertwee-and-ukip-wants-straight-doctor

    It’s at that point, and I quite understand where you are coming from @jimthefish, that you realise that this is pure media silly season. Politics is slowing down for the recess, the weather is hitting those unheard of temperatures of the mid-20s and the media goes “bat-shit crazy”.

    Last year they rejoiced in a State silly season with the Jubilee year and Olympics, this year is Doctor Who! I was going to write a piss-takey blog post on the results of the survey pointing out that 31% of the nation having an opinion makes it officially more exciting that who gets to run our police forces (low 20%), and the 1999 European election (29% turnout).

    Then I realised it would be a lot of work, and I’m feeling pretty warm and lazy.

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