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25 May 2024 at 21:54 #75869
I’m curious what ‘Old Ruby’ said to all those characters to have that effect on them.
Secondly, this is the third time we’ve seen alternate timelines so far in Series 14
Two of which involved stepping on something plus ‘Boom’ hinging on that as a plot point. Anyway, we have Roger ap Gwilliam (son of Gwilliam?) and Henry Arbinger. Could mean absolutely nothing!
4 June 2013 at 18:22 #11843@Shazzbot Wouldn’t be concerned with rambling! But yeah, I did wonder if that was a bit too human in thinking; it did remind me of a previous discussion (which I think @ardaraith began) on another aspect of the Doctor. Hmm… his morality! Yeah, that was it.
The gender mirroring; well, that just made me think of the Plato tale but again that’s a sexually-related thing. Not sure whether he was a Time Lord or not 🙂
4 June 2013 at 17:49 #11841@Shazzbot (and others) Interesting point about a female Doctor and TARDIS but might it be that the change in Doctor’s form could also alter the TARDIS in that way? We’ve seen it does change upon regeneration – it is linked – so why not that way if it were to be personified again?
I don’t think it has to be a matter of ‘The Doctor’s Husband (or Wife)’ in that way, more an equal partner to the character. Equal and opposite to current gender. No?
31 May 2013 at 19:57 #11467From last thread…
The ‘Clara Oswald’ anagram by @whisht
DW now L; CALs OS Aria” (still waiting for mentions of Aria!!)
The one played by Dalek claricle? Not explicitly mentioned but still 🙂 That reminds me, was there bonkers theorising on the music used and referenced throughout the series? If there was, which is probably a safe bet, I’ve not seen it.
28 May 2013 at 21:39 #11250Any other thoughts on why the HurtDoctor has a more definite presence in the timestream than the other doctors?
I had thought it served as a kind of prison. That, assuming he had (or, as you suggest, hadn’t) done something, he was compelled to face the consequences of it – both from his stance and not running from whatever he was looking at. Might that be a suitably Time Lord/Doctor punishment to mete out?
On top of which, I think it goes back to the attitude of Kahler-Jex. Perhaps.
27 May 2013 at 12:18 #11124@scaryb Sorry, is the leaf that led to her parents meeting the same one as that in the diary or is it that one fed to grandfather? Either way, I think there may be a memory issue for Clara; at one point, she says ‘I don’t know who I am’ as well as the phrase ‘I don’t know where I am’. Back to the beginning?
27 May 2013 at 11:21 #11119@scaryb That confused me with the previous conversation of how the Doctor had the leaf after Grandfather had eaten it and my suggestion of two leaves. So I rewatched! The leaf from the book was different to that eaten by Grandfather and given to her in the timestream – both two and three were identical in shape, if not from the same point in time. Unsure how to explain that or her lack of recognition! When I said there were two leaves, I thought he gave her the one from the book but no. That is odd to me. Could the timestream have affected her memory to an extent? Avoiding the Souffle Girl thing now 😉
26 May 2013 at 21:25 #11083The Doctor’s wearing a Double Albert chain, which has a T bar to securely hold the chain to the button hole. . The charm might be a St Christopher – very appropriate, if so. The watch, if there is one, will be in one of the waist coat pockets.
Of all the things I’ve read on here, this amazed me. No really. I’m nearly sure I read of his charm being used in another time travel way, perhaps even the Doctor. Hmm. Either way, blimey there’s a lot more to pay attention to isn’t there?! Aside from the bowties of course 🙂
26 May 2013 at 16:36 #11027psychology degree sounds a lot more useful than the ‘humanities specialising in creative writing’ that I’m doing.
I suppose so, it’s certainly part of why I’m doing it, but I think usefulness isn’t the best reason (or indeed most… valid one) for undertaking study especially at this level. To do it from interest? Yeah, that 😀
negative feedback on the OU website (credit to the OU for including it- or evil mechanisms of the OU consciousness?)
I think you might be on to something! Online only course is the most evil thing I’ve ever encountered. A 10 week war of attrition.
if it’s too easy, it isn’t much of an achievement.
That’s another good reason, the challenge of it. It’s part of my goal 🙂
26 May 2013 at 15:48 #11024One thing I noticed on rewatching TNotD is the GI’s plot was so it could have ‘peace at last’. Important in light of HurtDoctor’s words?
26 May 2013 at 14:21 #11010@bluesqueakpip Sorry, I wasn’t entirely serious about that; I actually like the tagline of this place! And my (possibly needless) theory as a riff on yours! As the Doctor is in his own timestream, his memory (of Clara using the SG name) would scatter just as Clara’s did – see the Oswin nickname become a real one. He would not realise that as pre-jump version receiving post-jump information, it would just be there in his head when triggered. No?
Could it be he didn’t/doesn’t survive the jump intact? Hmm, anniversary speculation.
26 May 2013 at 13:55 #11006@scaryb Not at all; I had initially come up with them merely coming up with the name independently but, well, we’re here. That’s much too straightforward. We don’t like Occam’s razor 🙂
26 May 2013 at 13:20 #11002@scaryb No, I meant in terms of referring to her as Souffle Girl. While she calls herself that twice in TNotD, her future version doesn’t know it when the Doctor uses it. Yet he wouldn’t have heard Prime use it until just before she jumped. His earlier pre-jump self couldn’t recall it unless he’d affected his own memories through his own jump, albeit in pieces. The memory of adventures would be affected by Clara and GI actions; something on a smaller scale may not be. Not least as the GI had jumped in before she used the nickname so couldn’t be aware of it. Unless, of course, other claricles were Souffle Girl(s?).
Blimey, names eh? 😀
26 May 2013 at 12:11 #10996@scaryb @bluesqueakpip Yeah, fair point. I’m rubbish at analysis! Hopefully my ‘Doctor’s jump affecting his pre-jump memory’ idea does support notes on Metebelis, breaking in TARDIS etc. Didn’t both the Daleks and Cybermen describe the Doctor as their potential saviour?
26 May 2013 at 11:26 #10990@bluesqueakpip Well, there is that possibility (which I hadn’t thought of!) or that another Wonder is gone and it has taken the number. Or a mistake? Nah!
He didn’t know Prime made souffles? Too simple again. When jumping into his own timestream, he somehow imbued his pre-timestream self with echoes of memory. Not just his own since then (rather, from encountering claricles to jumping) but those he witnessed of Prime’s life within it. In fact, might it be that his dodgy memory is a cause of that jump? Much like claricles have elements of Prime – from Oswin, computer skills, souffle, governess/junior entertainment officer? Never all at once.
I’m nearly sure that makes a sort of sense.
26 May 2013 at 10:55 #10986@bluesqueakpip Few things about continuity rundown.
The Snowmen
Continuity:The TARDIS, halfway through the episode, is visibly more battered and paint-peeling than at the beginning.
The control room has changed.It was also a bit roughed up in Crimson Horror; I thought that he’d visited Victorian claricle after the end of that episode. The control room may have changed following the loss of Amy and Rory? Not sure who suggested that one but I liked the idea.
Nightmare in Silver
Continuity:
The Cyberman is the 699th Wonder of the Universe when it should be the 700th.
Not sure about this; after a previous conversation with @Shazzbot, I dug up a reference to the 700th Wonder of the Universe (the Great City of the Exxilons) being lost in the 4th Doctor’s era. What was it… Yeah, Death to the Daleks. Another continuity thing!
Souffle Girl? She simply called herself in the beginning of TNotD based on her mum being excellent at them and trying to repeat that. Plus, you know, she is a girl. In the second mention near the ending, it’s a reference to ‘getting it right’ – undoing the influence of the GI. How does the Doctor know it in AotD? Well, it could be from learning she, Dalek claricle, made them and her gender. I know, too straightforward.
Question to people, when Jenny and Strax died how come Vastra didn’t die? Can anyone explain?
Yes. In the original timeline, Strax died in AGMGTW and was brought back by Vastra and Jenny to form the Paternoster Gang. Jenny was saved by him. Vastra didn’t die but was stopped from killing workers in the London Underground. Had the Doctor not done that, she’d have continued along those lines.
25 May 2013 at 19:09 #10941@miapatrick Oh, I didn’t think you were, know them to be quite good for supporting disabled students; again, based on the experiences of others, ‘classmates’ and such. And yes, plain psychology degree 🙂 Heard some good things about A215!
25 May 2013 at 18:13 #10932@miapatrick It’s a bit of software for psychology (or maybe social science in general) students. Horrible really, pretext of presenting video logs and such in ‘real’ situations – complete with bad res, sound etc. When it does work anyway! Not sure that’s valid so much now. I don’t know why they do it but it’s used in a few other bits. Didn’t know the forums had spellchecker at all! Dyspraxia is tough to get recognition for in general, I think. Not me, family.
Phew, I do that as standard! What are you studying then? That’s you as well @bluesqueakpip!
25 May 2013 at 17:50 #10928@miapatrick You think that’s bad? Ever tried using fOCUS? I don’t know why it’s written like that.
I hope my assignment hasn’t been eaten.
25 May 2013 at 12:32 #10866Clara also means bright, as opposed to the effects of the GI.
24 May 2013 at 22:20 #10775@Shazzbot Also just read your Cold War theory post in full. This’ll teach me to not skim posts!
24 May 2013 at 20:37 #10749I’m clutching at straws to build my theory that we haven’t been seeing Clara Prime this whole half-series. I think it’s a good one, and I think the fainting business might be a key to unlocking it.
Back in the mists of theoretical time, I had suggested/asked (from someone else’s words) that curious Clara Prime scene in Cold War could be her having an echo step in to deal with Skaldak. Say she had a psychic link with the TARDIS – which she now does and which may have been… included on ‘page one’ in a timestream-y way – and the HADS activation had a consequence. That bit is new.
24 May 2013 at 17:59 #10721@budinacup Oh yeah! Forgot about that in the read-through.
Another thing. Who did take those photos of Fragment Claras? Is that what we’re calling her?
24 May 2013 at 17:51 #10718Catching up!
And then the reveal of the extremely dark, guilty secret in his personal cellar – this person who has done terrible things, but who in some ways is him. He’s confronted directly with his own death (and the death of the Tardis who has been his one constant) and he becomes more open emotionally than we have ever seen him. Matt has never been better I think. He plays the Dr as emotional but as drawing a strength from being more honest (to himself) about how he feels.
This reminded me. Amontillado?
Crimson, eleven, delight, petrichor.
Maybe it refers to the (Hurt / Tennant / Smith) Doctor’s joy at the Tardis finally taking off from somewhere. Just need the Crimson bit now. Red Tardis anyone?
Red setting? Crimson Horror? Hmm, first three could refer to that episode couldn’t they? Not sure of last one.
24 May 2013 at 09:01 #10668Well, the first leaf we saw was that which smacked her dad in the face. That’s the one the Doctor was shown investigating; who’s to say he didn’t take it around that time? The second leaf, the one eaten by Grandfather, could have been kept by Clara in memory of her mother. Not shown until then and fits with memory theme. The point of the episode. Both are symbols of potential – of a life that is and one that was.
I’m sure it’s nothing but red leaves, blue fruit 🙂
24 May 2013 at 08:30 #10659Aren’t there two leaves?
23 May 2013 at 23:20 #10626Oh, back to theories, what happened to the ‘cameos’ for past Doctors? Did that run throughout this half of the series?
23 May 2013 at 23:04 #10621@budinacup Thanks. Yeah, sorry, the thing about that ‘trailer’ was the Silence mention. They’ve been such an integral part of the Eleventh’s tenure, you see, and have been out of sight – whether defeated or gone to ground – for some time. That was my reasoning behind spoiler query. Kneejerk reaction before considering (read: having pointed out) it was likely much too early for such things but you never know in the circumstances. Probably. Then came the other reflex of slapping my own face.
Other ‘enemies’ are much more ambiguous, especially if they’ve not appeared in the show for a ridiculous amount of time. Like Zygons. Personally, the Ice Warriors also fit that description. I knew one was in Cold War but not the context beyond ‘classic monster returns’. The drawback/benefit of only seeing from Nine on?
Now, jammie dodger?
23 May 2013 at 22:26 #10610Zygons? Never heard of them. I predict they’ll somehow help the Doctor out of the timestream using Nessie. Does it matter that they seem to be enemies?
23 May 2013 at 12:12 #10497@scaryb Ah. Yes. Right. I’d go sit in a corner but in the name of peace and sanity?
23 May 2013 at 11:43 #10491That suggests his secret (the other?) is indeed dangerous. What could be worse than ending the Time War?
23 May 2013 at 10:43 #10482so what would the HurtDoctor have had to do to annoy them more than that?
Capture one and have Edvard Munch use them for a painting. The Stetson/fez etc wasn’t really necessary.
22 May 2013 at 22:15 #10409I had wondered about that very point, a dead person/creature could lie but difficult to tell in the Whoniverse! Of course, it could be referring to Clara’s question ‘Who is he?’ – a second instance of the question according to Dorium – in the timestream.
22 May 2013 at 17:58 #10373@budinacup If the Silence actually appear, spoiler. If just the speech, not a spoiler. Phew then! It’s trickier than usual as it’s the event it is! Spoiler avoidance will be up to eleven. Sorry. We’re very good at speculation. Or bad. Well, both really 😀 Spoilers are like Weeping Angels (good avatar there) in reverse I suppose; don’t look at any videos, awareness won’t move an inch and creep up on you. Terrible analogy?
what about the moment in TroA when the Doctor says ” ive been here before, years ago with my granddaughter” add to that the fact that they refer to there “god” as ‘Grandfather’ and do we have The Doctor as some early template for there god?
No-one has suggested that before! Bit like how the title of Doctor spread based on his adventures?
But who said we here at the DWF are logical? Perhaps; but surely more, we’re bonkers. 😀
Exactly!
22 May 2013 at 17:26 #10361in fact if you are to watch the 50th anniversary trailer on BBC it is very heavy in The Silence.
Spoiler? Oh well.
22 May 2013 at 11:25 #10334@brotherjohn @mtgradwell She calls herself Souffle Girl near the start of this episode when attempting to make one the way her mum did and ‘this time I’ll get it right’.
22 May 2013 at 10:28 #10325The desktop thing could be odd, I suppose, but she’s also time travelled. In the TARDIS. An injoke then 🙂 I think the Taj Mahal was the important thing, being a giant mausoleum to honour a wife’s memory. Again, mirroring and stating who built his tomb?
@Shazzbot That is the question! One theory could hinge on who created the Trenzalore prophecy. Was it an echo of Clara (did Prime ever hear it from the Doctor?) or the GI in a long game? A third party? You would think that the most likely possibility as she needed the question answered and he wanted it. The Silence took their name from that prophecy – did they think it referred to them or were they preventing ‘the question that must never be answered’ from a wider perspective? The bad guys never think they’re bad!
Oh yeah, been thinking on the mystery Doctor. If you think back to TBoSJ, Clara would have pressed 3 for the password but skipped that to 4. A hint of where he and Smith fall in the overall timeline? On top of that, the missing years of 16 and 23. 7 and 5. 12 and 3 (Smith and Hurt) overall and new series count? Could be nonsense of course!
21 May 2013 at 23:40 #10305@Shazzbot? What are you sorry for? I don’t have a real clue about the series either, that’s the appeal! 😀
But yes, the Silence. They are/were both religious order (seemingly as an alliance of several races) and species, the latter being those freaky electricity flinging bulbous headed… amnesia blokes?
If you look at Clara being the focus (yes I know, companion’s journey etc), suppose the series has been about getting her to the point of becoming the Impossible Girl and saving the Doctor/undoing GI damage. After all, he only became curious about the puzzle of her after AotD and The Snowmen – that’s a loop which had to happen. He had to go to Trenzalore and live on (I think) by her actions. Another loop?
Had he not, silence would have fallen in many places. Stars do make noise after a fashion.
21 May 2013 at 22:57 #10295@scaryb 😀 Courtesy of @whisht.
@badwulf Sorry, what’s series 6C about? I’m still going for the first theory but open to other past tense ones!
@chickenelly Yes, Ten got shot by a Dalek in Journey’s End and used his spare hand (lopped off by a citrus hater, which is just wrong) to absorb regeneration energy and stop himself snuffing it.
21 May 2013 at 22:46 #10288So, assuming both 10 and 11 seemed wary of what may turn up next and the ending of TNotD might it have been due to Nine absorbing the time vortex and somehow being able to control it? To attempt prevention of the Time War? Drastic by the sound of it but done in the name of peace and sanity.
I know there’s the argument of what has happened must always happen, meaning Nine always died from vortex energy, but can that really be the case with the events of JttCotT?
21 May 2013 at 21:46 #1025921 May 2013 at 21:39 #10253Does anyone remember that Prisoner Zero taunted Eleven then by singing “the Doctor in the TARDIS doesn’t know”. Does the Hurt Doctor have a “dark TARDIS” (visually, I’d love to see that!). Or is he “the Doctor without the TARDIS”?
Brilliant. Might have to rewatch everything now. Is it possible they meant River though? River always knows and was a Doctor if I remember. Not as good, that, and I’m clueless on academic titles. How could a Doctor end up without a TARDIS? Explosion? Hmm.
21 May 2013 at 21:24 #10248@chickenelly Oh yeah, that reminded me of that curious Cold War scene. Is it possible that Clara Prime was… paused for an echo to face Skaldak?
21 May 2013 at 16:22 #10216@bluesqueakpip Ah. Had wondered why it was so important. Thanks 🙂
21 May 2013 at 16:04 #10213@Shazzbot Yeah, that is an interesting angle. Could explain the ‘breaking TARDIS in’ comment from Cold War. I had thought of and looked for an avatar (mainly as having a load of consecutive faceless commenters can get confusing) but a picture of an orange was scrapped.
21 May 2013 at 15:34 #1021021 May 2013 at 15:04 #10204I’m disturbed by the specifics of the canon we saw changed as per your comment – no Daleks survived Exxilon but in AotD we see Exxilon Daleks
I don’t know when they first showed up but is it mentioned when AoTD occurs? It could be a future for the civilisation Dalek Clara belonged to while human but the Doctor’s pre-Exxilon past? OK, maybe not that as they’re insane from meeting him. Could’ve got away with it if not for that!
Curious about it so snooped. The end of the original episode/serial has the universe’s wonders being reduced to 699; hello chess playing Cyberman 🙂
21 May 2013 at 13:45 #10193if all time happens at once, then Clara prevented the GI from doing those deeds at the same time. What we saw was on screen was just a way to represent that process to us mere mortals. I think.
Basically, two positions flickering at super-infinite speeds?
21 May 2013 at 12:52 #10177Sorry, wasn’t his tomb from his death by the GI’s actions? By visiting it, has he not changed the time and location of his own death?
21 May 2013 at 12:17 #10169@scaryb I think the adventures we’ve seen are the ones that have always been, from the discussion between @whohar and @mtgradwell mentioned at the top of the page. Ever since Gallifreyan Clara convinced him to pick the ‘right’ TARDIS, it’s been set if I understand right. Had he chosen differently all those years ago, so the experiences would have been different. Less fun for one thing 🙂
Does put the kibosh on my ideas about the Silence war but I’m OK with that! Trenzalore couldn’t have happened without them and their prophecy after all. I think.
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