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21 May 2013 at 10:31 #10162
@Shazzbot Yeah, realise I didn’t really answer your question on the Silence. Well… I think there’s maybe two possibilities after Utah. If they were all on Earth, having all moved in there to parasitise, then they’re likely extinct. That might be the case going by their… hubris towards their hosts. On the other hand, they might be elsewhere as well – it’s clear they’ve done the same routine before, with those TARDIS replicas in The Lodger and Day of the Moon – and have just gone, well, silent from believing the Doctor dead. Their aim achieved. The species would presumably still exist, as would Madame Kovarian; she only died in a redundant timeline.
Why have they not continued on from subsequent evidence that he’s alive? He’s been wiped from history. Perhaps by someone with the ability to affect all of his timestream. Perhaps it means their war never happened. Yet River exists? Yes; Amy and Rory still travelled with him. The only (possible) difference is her never being fashioned into a weapon. I think. It’s tricky!
I had thought them responsible for the exploding TARDIS (well, there were a few of them weren’t there?) but that could be the GI’s influence. Which means it has also been undone, I think. Oh, and perhaps that mystery room in Amy’s house was similar to that in The Lodger; I forget if they explained that beyond being Prisoner Zero’s hideout.
Erm, think that’s all!
20 May 2013 at 20:52 #10106@Shazzbot D’ya know, I’ve heard of another analogy (which I can’t remember) and a tesseract but never in the same sentence!
I can see a few parallels between that story and the show.
20 May 2013 at 20:29 #10102Are we ever to learn, as viewers, how River comes to know all of this? As per this episode, the Doctor says ‘River would know … River always knows.’
This could mean River is Clara or that her link with the TARDIS allows her to know relevant stuff.
20 May 2013 at 20:14 #10097Echoing some of the stuff said above, I suspect that the anniversary episode will see the Hurt Doctor rehabilitated or redeemed in some way, rather than him being some unrepentant evil that has to be fought to the death By the end of the episode, I expect that he’ll be redeemed and will have earned his place as a ‘proper Doctor’.
Physician heal thyself? (Hopefully got the hang of quoting now or above will look wonky) Like the idea anyway!
@Shazzbot It’s Steven.
20 May 2013 at 19:30 #10081@scaryb Yes, sorry, you’re right. Time travel! I fall into a trap of thinking of each incarnation separately, a bit, which could get really complicated if I’d seen BG series! In any event, her first and (perhaps) last meeting with Eleven.
I did say phew 😀
@juniperfish OK, Hurt Doctor! Or Doctor Hurt? Yeah, maybe not. Anyway, interesting idea. He’s fighting against himself forever. Blimey.
20 May 2013 at 18:59 #10076@Shazzbot Ah, that. No, first meeting with Eleven. Although that makes me think their meeting here might well have been just after she’d been uploaded into the Library. She dies in front of a bemused Ten, he ‘saves’ her, the conference call is gathered then Trenzalore.
Phew.
The Silence, blimey. What do I think/remember… Misguided crusade; a religious order without a leader though? Odd. Kovarian was unlikely to be it. Papal Mainframe? Perhaps but I thought that was a woman/female in charge of the Headless Monks alone. Didn’t one Monk summon him to the Asylum? Hmm… Only really thought of their weapon against him being a Song; that was always going to go well eh? 😀
They can build TARDISes, well get someone to build them. That’s never been explained either, I don’t think. A rogue Time Lord or someone with that sort of knowledge? Omega with those symbols all over the place? I know next to nothing about him.
Ultimately pawns of something or someone else. Think that’s my take.
@juniperfish Shadow Doctor as Set?
20 May 2013 at 17:54 #10063@Shazzbot Yeah, that surprised me even with the habit of misdirection. They were trying to stop him from, what, visiting his eventual gravesite and having his entire history rewritten so he never had the impact he did and they didn’t have to put up with him in the first place. Yeah? How do they do that? By repeatedly trying to kill him.
Suppose it’s notable that River’s first meeting with him is mirrored here.
20 May 2013 at 16:42 #10055@scaryb That’s true but I think TARDIS (does anyone use Idris?) has created a door to that room (then locked it) as in JttCotT. Seeing the Doctor’s fate, she would’ve had something in place to prevent all that time mucking up business.
20 May 2013 at 16:23 #10048@scaryb And why would the GI need the Dr to open the doors if they were already inside?
To get into the console room, location of the timestream. Although a sealed door in a dead TARDIS… Perhaps just mostly dead?
20 May 2013 at 15:42 #10041About CAL River ‘sleeping’; the Second Doctor mentioned his family sleeping in his head, those memories of them, and waking sometimes. I know someone posted a clip of it, more than once I think. There’s also a sleep mode thing?
Beekeeping? Perhaps he’s why all the bees have vanished in Ten’s lifetime! Or it’s just a little nod to Mr Gaiman 🙂
20 May 2013 at 14:31 #10017@jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave Hmm, I suppose that makes sense in a logical sort of way but for a person who can visit the site of their own death etc, it’s entirely possible to break a promise you’ve not yet made. I think.
There might be a very questionable argument there. My poor theory!
@Shazzbot Do you want to flesh this theory out, by thinking about her different characterisations in different episodes?
Oh, that’s interesting! One person as… octuplets/smaller -lets?
20 May 2013 at 12:01 #9991@blenkinsopthebrave Not at all! We may indeed be onto something, that old (and apparently reviled) Cartmel Masterplan? I didn’t see the BG series so I’m not disgusted by the idea. Do remember it being mentioned in light of the Doctor’s digs in TBoSJ – Cartmel Priory?
20 May 2013 at 11:38 #9989@blenkinsopthebrave John Hurt is the timelord before Hartnell–the reason that Hartnell ran away in the first place, and the reason that Hartnell called himself the Doctor.
That’s my theory as well; still working on why though. I thought it from the dialogue and Hurt not running in the finale (perhaps being condemned to look at what he’d done?) but all other versions doing so.
20 May 2013 at 09:11 #9971Ta @scaryb!
@thenightmarechild Is the great intelligence the Valeyard that somehow escaped or is the Valeyard just the evil version of the doctor? He said he’s been thwarted every time by the doctor, but we’ve only really seen him like twice this series. And of course John Hurt is who the Doctor saw in the God Complex episode
No? Yes he’s a future version of the Doctor (from past series), GI has been thwarted by other Doctors (or maybe just by one of them) and yeah he is!
Had the thought that he could be a version of Ten who hadn’t saved Wilf. Just a thought.
20 May 2013 at 09:01 #9969@janetteb Bananas?
20 May 2013 at 08:39 #9964Probably a minor thing but above clips – Two and Eight in the same era?
19 May 2013 at 21:04 #9888@juniperfish We seem to have near consensus that Hurt Doctor (and isn’t that name wonderfully symbolic in itself) is Time War Doctor. I’m looking forward to finding out more in November.
I’m in two minds between that Shadow Doctor (or Doctor Zero). I do think there’ll be some struggle for control between him and Eleven anyway.
19 May 2013 at 17:20 #9848@bluesqueakpip @thebadfairyprincess OK, I’ll accept that. Had thought maybe Hurt was the original Doctor, the past one the rest are running from (partly as they are all running in the timestream/memory thing while he isn’t), but that doesn’t fit with their personalities does it? Eleven could be Twelve but call himself Eleven (when does that happen anyway?) as mystery one has been stripped of the title.
Now we know what happened to Clara Prime, what is the missing years stuff about? Just a meta thing?
@topperofgallifrey He’s not human and doesn’t really have a knack for distinguishing between us pink weasels?
19 May 2013 at 14:43 #9823@scaryb Random thought – Was the dark Dr originally intended to be Eccleston but he wouldn’t play?
That’s very good. Could Tennant have done that?
About Gallifreyan Clara… she could have been the Corsair. Maybe Jim the Fish too. Maybe?
19 May 2013 at 14:07 #981319 May 2013 at 14:01 #9808@badwulf Is there something even darker in the Hurt Doctor’s history?
That’s my thinking – that it is what made him run in the first place.
19 May 2013 at 13:01 #9784Was it his timestream or his memories? Shadow Doctor (it might stick!) did talk to him, whatever that could mean. It does seem that he may be running from that one’s actions before (and perhaps reason for) adopting the name of Doctor – all other incarnations were shown running about while he stood still. More terrible than ending the Time War?
19 May 2013 at 12:07 #9760I wonder if the 5oth partly involves a battle with that Doctor to take control of the body.
@Shazzbot She ignored that instruction 🙂
19 May 2013 at 11:01 #9740@northumbria Just as the name of a scenic artist working on the show.
19 May 2013 at 10:50 #9737So, Clara gave herself the TARDIS phone number, she was his time (Theta Sigma’s friend and ruler), John Hurt’s Doctor was what he saw in the God Complex and he’s stuck in his own mind. Yeah?
18 May 2013 at 22:52 #9656@bluesqueakpip Clara knows the Doctor’s birth name. The TARDIS made sure she knows it. Why? She has no need to know it. But the TARDIS sees her as ‘an exception to this rule’.
I do like the theory, especially the final bit, but wouldn’t she recognise River? Unless… some Chameleon Arch type thing?
18 May 2013 at 20:52 #9605Oh, and does that mean John Hurt was stuck in a twisted 8os hotel?
18 May 2013 at 20:29 #959617 May 2013 at 17:45 #9457@ardaraith OH!! Could Clara be either RiverSong OR RiverSong’s granddaughter from an alternative timeline??
That’s possible and could, in that mind-frying way, explain how she didn’t recognise the River (theory of course) who gave her a very useful phone number. Stumped about how River would know her though! Well, no, there is that whole River’s past being the Doctor’s future thing. Paradoxes eh? 😀
Yeah, that works. I think.
Oh yeah, that discussion of River and Romana nonchalance over regeneration. Didn’t the Master influence his change from Yana? Although, yes, I suppose he was dying at the time. Makes you wonder why the Doctor hasn’t gone ginger.
17 May 2013 at 14:55 #9441@scaryb A Time Lord, inc the Corsair (love that one)
That’s mine! 😀
A reincarnation of any previous companion (anyone but Mel!!!!)
I saw a suggestion elsewhere that she was River. Yes really.A present to the Doctor from the universe
I quite like this one.
In a show where memories are currency, if no-one remembers you, you are effectively dead – more than that, like the effects of the crack in time, it will be like you never existed
Yes. So when pressed to truthfully answer a question that (I think) hinges on whether you’re alive or dead, you can lie. Rule One.17 May 2013 at 13:17 #9428Well… As the series has focussed on memories, mentioned two ‘names’ (as in reputation) of The Doctor (is it The?), had Clara splintered in time and seen a timeline repeated until it was ‘fixed’, I have a little theory.
The Doctor is called to Trenzalore by, it seems, The Whispermen (mirror to Silence?) to answer that mystery question. If it is what the title says it is, it’s defining himself as one of those Doctors. Why has he run from that? Well, that’s beyond me really. Could be setting a thing in stone, authority, that. Because it’s a place where truth must be told, he also learns what Clara is/becomes from that splintering. Perhaps he ‘fixes’ that so it didn’t (well, doesn’t) happen. She lives on as present Clara.
The Silence (who I think are still about, just as he is) sought to stop it being answered as, if he chose the first meaning, the original meaning, that would cancel their reason to exist – their endless war. They’d fall. It would also mean River never became a weapon and possibly that Rory never punched Hitler. Unsure what other effects that timeline editing would have though.
I bet that’s much too simple and I’ve missed something (or several somethings) important. That’s what I do.
Oh yeah, do we know any dead characters? Living creatures may not speak falsely or refuse to answer.
16 May 2013 at 15:23 #9371@bluesqueakpip where the different personalities cannot be contained and their version of dementia sets in.
The ‘madman in a box’. That’s something that’s been hiding in plain sight since The Big Bang; Eleven is convinced he’s gone nuts. His mirror in The Crimson Horror: Mrs Gillyflower, who is completely bats.
Much like the initial behaviour of Ganger Doctor? Horrendous thought.
16 May 2013 at 15:08 #936716 May 2013 at 15:03 #9366@ardaraith @miapatrick Interesting. Perhaps it’s slightly different as, even with that ability, Melody/River was originally human? Or, well, she just wasn’t bothered! A young ‘Time Lady’ with no real sense of what it meant to change.
16 May 2013 at 00:06 #929215 May 2013 at 20:35 #9261@timeloop Beside the point: I really think “mhm mirrors, clever girl” Is a nod in the direction of people like you guys =D stands out more in rewatch (somebody might have mentioned it before)
Ah ha, thought did enter my head! Then I got paranoid.
15 May 2013 at 19:44 #9252Curious now… @htpbdet Has the Cyberiad been mentioned before in the series? Wondering from seeing “The duo are best friends and rivals. When they are not busy constructing revolutionary mechanisms at home, they travel the universe, aiding those in need” as part of a synopsis for a book by that name. Those possible little nods again.
15 May 2013 at 17:40 #9228@Shazzbot (and I’m looking a total fool to everyone now)
Nah. Have you seen my theories? Everyone’s a fish. It’s not easy!
Back to the other stuff. Perhaps one thing to note from that line of thought – the infinite potential of that leaf, all those possibilities that could have been (and so have yet to be), in consideration of the same quality the Cyber-planner (or Cyberiad unless there’s a distinction) sees in children but sees even more in the Doctor. Still thinking on what that could mean.
Hmm, there is a bit of a focus on children as pivotal figures. OK, maybe two things to note.
@htpbdet That’s very true. I’ll have to rewatch TRoA now! I don’t mind the singing.
15 May 2013 at 17:00 #9221Oh, and I struggle with the name as well. He’s that person blogging dem (damn!) excellent TARDIStimes?
15 May 2013 at 16:45 #9219@Shazzbot Ah, see that got me thinking! Had wondered about the focus on it and the lack of previous, considering they’re all the same bloke with a facelift, but it could be a hybrid of what Cyberiad took over (bit like that battle with Morbius which @htpbdet mentioned somewhere) and those memories the memory-chowing planet gobbled up. I do think some, maybe a fair chunk, were taken then.
That could be completely wrong 😀
Perhaps that regeneration created Jim The Fish? I’ll leave it now.
15 May 2013 at 15:07 #9208@jimthefish Oh. Well. Erm, well, timey wimey explanation? She’s future/alternate you? If the ‘eh?’ was also for the last chance bit, before Saturday dashes/confirms theory of… Fishness.
I just want an episode including him/her/you really.
15 May 2013 at 15:01 #9205@wolfweed I’d watch that.
15 May 2013 at 14:26 #9197@thommck et al. It was included as it’s 11’s creation; all ‘his’ experiences stem from that moment. Probably. Did everyone think it was something more?
@htpbdet Not being confrontational, but I don’t understand why everyone finds this Clara blank or non-reactive. She does not strike me as blank – quite the opposite in fact.
Yes. Her scene about viewing the entirety of Earth’s existence was anything but that.
She’s also Jim the Fish. Last chance theory!
15 May 2013 at 10:20 #9177Perhaps there’s nothing more to the gap between 10 and 11 than the nature of 10’s death? Particularly violent change to 11 due to all the radiation.
@scaryb However, I also wondered if the emotion in the cp could be down to the fact that he/it was in the Dr’s brain… the influence can go both ways?
That’s what I thought, being a new/unknown type of brain to convert.
14 May 2013 at 23:31 #914014 May 2013 at 16:43 #9070@lula @bluesqueakpip Think he is, yeah; they (old interviews by RTD and Moff) certainly used the idea of focussing on other characters than Buffy to The Doctor in ‘Doctor-lite’ episodes as in The Zeppo to Love and Monsters, Blink and some others. Plus I’d say The Whispermen are a clear riff on The Gentlemen in appearance at least.
14 May 2013 at 12:40 #9036@scaryb @bluesqueakpip Oh go on then! I did have a related-ish one (only with much less evidence) that she’s time. His time. From being born behind a clock to her other names – divine friend and ruler of the lonely god (who is, at the very least, called Os aka Theta Sigma)? That, and “I’m the boss”. As he once said “I can run away from anything I like. Time is not the boss of me”.
Yeah, probably a stretch! Oh well.
14 May 2013 at 11:45 #9027@bluesqueakpip she’s Doctor Who – the programme
I quite like that one! Dying from a fall in ratings and people thinking they were better than it? Present still running, being clever, staving off the GI/Mr Clever masses. Future? Who knows.
Too meta?
Dark Doctor theory; how does the Valeyard fit into things then? I thought the Cyberplanner was emotional as (A) it’s somewhat independent from being, well, the planner/thinker or (B) the influence of The Doctor – an unknown – as some suggest he may have affected GI.
14 May 2013 at 00:31 #8983@timeloop How do you guys keep yourself from reaching out for spoilers?
Erm, well, I just don’t look really. For spoilers or Wispas stuck under benches. Fortunately I find Tumblr really bizarre so don’t use it!
14 May 2013 at 00:12 #8980@scaryb Fireball=The Big Bang? An hour could be interesting. Perhaps it’ll change once this film is shown?
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