The Day of the Doctor
17 December 2013 at 18:50 #22997billyboy1989 @billyboy1989
i loved this episode had everything special about it from seeing the old doctors to having a great story line this is why this show is one of the best around even after 50 years .17 December 2013 at 19:43 #23000Craig @craigEmperor
@MartyB Yeah, I think it was just Russell T Davies having a laugh and causing trouble on t’internet. Nice if it was true though! “Quelle dommage” indeed Russell. 😉18 December 2013 at 02:22 #23016Anonymous @
There’s also a Tenth Doctor crossover story, ‘The Wedding of Sarah Jane’ (also a 2-parter) which also gives a bit of context to The Doctor’s ‘farewell’ in EoT.
There are a few clips on youtube but sadly, not the full episodes. That said, they are regularly repeated on CBBC often in the form of back-to-back episodes on a weekend.18 December 2013 at 11:00 #23045Anonymous @
It’s interesting, I really enjoyed the Second Doctor ones I’ve seen, even though he’s pretty hapless. In him I find it endearing.
Have you seen much of the first Doctor, Hartnell? Your ‘hapless’ comment is intriguing. You’re correct, the first two Doctors are the opposite of the last two. I haven’t liked Superman In Space as much as I liked the original characterisations. Part of that is, even though it’s clear in An Unearthly Child the Doctor and Susan have been travelling a bit before shipping up in 1963 London, they’re still pretty new to it. Once we get to Tennant and Smith, they’ve done more time travel than really anyone else. And that changed the Doctor’s character. More experience means less ‘hapless’.
And of course we learnt in The Day of the Doctor about the War Doctor’s effect on Doctors from 2005 on.
I agree with you about excitement for Peter Capaldi’s take on the Doctor. With the Time War cleared up, and no Big Red Button pushed, perhaps PC can regain some of that endearing haplessness of the originals.18 December 2013 at 17:30 #23067ThatsBrilliant @thatsbrilliant
@MartyB – I’ve seen a few of Hartnell’s sets and it’s true, he’s pretty hapless as well, but his mistrust and anger kind of overwhelm that. I need to see more of his later ones where he’s friendlier. I just watched “An Adventure In Space and Time” and it made me more interested in seeing the character develop, not that I wasn’t interested already.
BTW if anyone is looking for episodes of anything don’t forget to check dailymotion.com, they often have stuff that youtube doesn’t. I found lots of full episodes of early Who there.
@wolfweed – I have pet rabbits, so I nearly died when Ten had his heart-to-heart with a lop. Good catch on the stuffed bun!20 December 2013 at 06:31 #23140ThatsBrilliant @thatsbrilliant
Hah @MartyB – I watched another Second Doctor set, Seeds of Death, and he definitely wasn’t hapless in that one. 🙂 Ok, enough off topic for this thread.22 December 2013 at 20:08 #23239Anonymous @
It would appear that I’m in the minority here but I was not at all impressed by The Day of the Doctor. To me it looked like Moffatt had given the continuity team time off. The was so much waffle that didn’t need to be in the programme, such as the QE1st scenes, and so much mentioned in the story from different Doctor’s that should have been.
Here we were, witnesses to the Great Time War and what did we see? A few distant scenes of daleks wrecking havoc and a confused Gallifreyan politicians wondering what to do next? Where was the Hoarde of Travesties or Nightmare Child that Davros’s command ship flew into the jaws of? Where was the Could Have Been King and his army of Meanwhile’s and Never Were’s? There were great opportunities that Moffatt could have picked up on but never did. How great would it have been to have had Timothy Dalton in this episode? He’s a great Dr fan and I wouldn’t have thought it would have taken a lot to get him in the 50th Anniversery episode.
What we were presented with was a ridiculous inclusion of QE 1st that childised the seriousness of the episode and served no real purpose but to provide an entry for the greatest Doctor, David T; a total mis-casting of Billie Piper; and a storyline that barely held together. Yes, the moral message was there, but Doctor Who is more than just getting a moral message across.
It was great to have an input from Peter Capaldi in the programme, announcing his entry as the 13th Doctor, but that throws everything into confusion as well. If Peter is Doctor number 13, then Matt Smith is Doctor number 12. So, what is going to happen on the fields of Trenzoalore when the 11th Doctor is supposed to fall – Dorian’s phropecy from his head in the box? Will we see David Tennant, the numerically correct 11th Doctor? or will Steven Moffatt rectify his mistake by changing the last eight years history of Doctor Who?
Doctor Who is science fiction, and strange things happen in science fiction, but not so strange that Steven Moffatt can re-write all of the great work of Russell T Davies. Keep The Faith Moffatt or please step down and give someone else a chance.22 December 2013 at 21:07 #23245
Yes, I think you’ll be in the minority if you talk about ‘continuity teams’. Russell T Davies’ comment on canon/continuity was that there’s no such thing. The word was never used in the production office under his watch.
You can see this in action if you compare ‘Dalek’ (set in 2012) with Army of Ghosts/Doomsday – which appears to be set before ‘Dalek’. So how come Van Statten doesn’t remember the Battle of Canary Wharf?
With regards to your complaints about lack of Time War and too much Queen Elizabeth, I can only refer you to nine older pages, two blog posts and a Doctor in a pear tree. 🙂
We don’t yet know Peter Capaldi’s ‘number’, but there has also been some extensive discussion about the Smith Doctor being the real ‘Twelve’.
Or maybe he isn’t. Who knows.
Who knows. 😀22 December 2013 at 23:26 #23251Anonymous @
@RTD fan Yes, I’d echo @bluesqueakpip in her excellent and concise discussion about the reason for Elizabeth the 1st’s inclusion in the plot -the Queen had been referenced by RTD in Tennant episodes more than once and of course it was an excellent point to introduce the Zygons (a super creepy alien and a nod to old Whovians) at the Tower (where the stasis cube was also introduced). As others have said in long posts (me included), as an adult and mature kid’s program we don’t really need to see more ‘bombing’ than we already did. I think that single groups of Daleks pausing to kill the family, with the young girl holding her teddy, was more powerful than all the bloodiest destructions Call of Duty and Assassin’s Creed could produce! Kindest,
PS: you obviously are a real fan with the inclusion in your post about The Army of Neverweres etc: I can never fully remember all those dreadful Time Lord weapons: they are terrifying aren’t they?22 December 2013 at 23:28 #23252Anonymous @
sorry that was @RTDFan above! 🙂23 December 2013 at 10:19 #23273Anonymous @
Certainly am. Some people call Doctor Who a religion, Wrong, It’s much more than that.23 December 2013 at 21:38 #23303soundworld @soundworld
@RTDFan Isn’t it marvelous how different aspects of Who appeal to different people? I think thats the beauty of the format, that all manner of different genres and styles can be brought into play. Sometimes where I have thought an episode was weak, on rewatching, I’ve ‘got it’. The 50th anniversary episode meta could be seen as ‘the day it was impossible to get it right’, tying together strands from various ages of the show. For me, it worked marvelously.24 December 2013 at 01:45 #23307Anonymous @
good point @soundworld and @RTDFan it is important to recognise the show continues to bring in diverse peoples with different opinions -and that can only be a good thing. Re-watching it is also wondrous. Think of all those episodes years ago when no-one had DVD/VCR and there was no way to re-watch unless the BBC/ABC repeated it graciously one evening. Now, we can pick apart every single frame on multi-pixel technology. In the end, despite all the great tech, it’s about the story: the warmth, the poignancy, the mad man with inscrutable eyes and a mischievous smile twirling his arms and offering you the world. And that’s just like Christmas. 🙂
purofilion24 December 2013 at 10:27 #23319
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already, I have been away from the internet for too long now and I just don’t have time on Christmas evening to read everything 😛 Anyways, after I rewatched Smith and Jones, where the Doctor got a “brand new sonic screwdriver” or something like that, how does that work with the “same screwdriver, different shell” thing?
Sorry if I’m a bit slow 😉24 December 2013 at 10:43 #23320toinfinityandbepond @toinfinityandbepond
It’s like a timey wimey version of “Trigger’s Broom”24 December 2013 at 12:30 #2332424 December 2013 at 12:38 #23325thommck @thommck
@eloise, the Sonic Screwdriver has been explained a lot on this forum already, I suggest you look back on some of the older comments if you want to know all the details.
Basically, the screwdriver’s operating system is the same, and most likely is run in the TARDIS. It’s only the casing that changes.
@toinfinityandbepond Love the “Trigger’s Broom” analogy 😉24 December 2013 at 12:40 #2332624 December 2013 at 22:19 #233431 January 2014 at 09:39 #23759topperofgallifrey @topperofgallifrey
I loved John Hurt’s beard.6 January 2014 at 07:35 #23985Anonymous @
@MartyB – Your post 22720 was great. The brief history you provided matching companions to doctors, is very informative for AG fans like me. It is also an amazingly insightful discription of how Whovians have transitioned following regenerations for fifty years. It helps me put my feelings into perspective right now, following the loss of my first Doctor Matt Smith.
@bluesqueakpip – I always thought that popping 10.5 in an alternate universe and having him age as a human was simply a convenient device. Namely, to enable future producers to bring back David Tennant in a guest spot after he’d visibly aged beyond his ‘current Doctor’ years.
Please forgive me for saying this Bluesqueakpip. I have read and really enjoyed many of your posts and I know you are brilliant. Amazingly clever as the doctor might say. But I think your reason for why 10.5 was created is too cynical. It is probably mostly true, but I think it was also intended to help people transition from ten to eleven a little easier. They were starting over with a new doctor and a new companion at the same time, which had rarely happened in history. Considering that, at least Tennant fans would know that somewhere he still lives. I know that makes me feel better about losing River Song.
Now for Matt Smith fans like me, still having Clara does make the transition a little easier, although another season between her and eleven would have helped build more of connection. I still feel like I hardly know anything about her.
<Slaps Self>, “What am I blubbering on about…not knowing Clara well enough…haha, like thats a bad thing. After all, the mystery surrounding River Song is what I loved most about her.”
How can Clara snap her fingers and close the Tardis doors?
Enough said I think, bring on season 8. Can’t wait!24 January 2014 at 00:26 #24571
Been away a while, dealing with life-things and dreaming up other whacky ideas:
I have been thinking about what initially looked to me like a plot hole in tDotD. I was also rereading some of the theories around about “the woman in the shop” who gave Clara the Doctor’s number in tNoftD.
Now I want to combine these two things…
Here’s how it works: We see the Machinations of Moment as causing a change in the timeline. Events that had gone one way were changed forever when she brought the War Doctor together with 10 and 11. However, I say that CAN’T be the way it happened. If it did – if 10 had originally been left on his own in 16th century England — then he wouldn’t have let the Zygons get away with planting themselves in the paintings. And even if he had, there would be no reason for 11 to have FORGOTTEN about it. He (11) should have been expecting the Zygons to eventually break out sooner or later, and not so clueless when it happened. (BTW, putting of solving the Zygon problem until they broke out would have been a pretty lazy approach to stopping the invasion.)
No. This wasn’t a CHANGE in the timeline. The timeline was ALWAYS that the Moment brought the three doctors together. Therefore 10, rather than dealing with the Zygons as he’d planned, whisked off with the other Doctors to help stop the Zygons in the future and thus had no recollection of that part of the events.
Moreover, the War Doctor, having reached his decision during the Zygon/Unit negotiations, returned to the barn and USED the Moment to destroy the Time Lords and Daleks. That’s what always happened.
What changed is Clara.
So here’s the whacky part: the Moment had done her best to convince the War Doctor to not burn Gallifrey. And failed! All the events after that, including the Doctor’s guilt and 9’s resultant demeanor, happened as we knew it. But… the Moment tried AGAIN, a different tactic. She picked a very special time and place. She appeared to Clara as “the woman in the shop” and gave her the Doctor’s number!
The Moment was responsible for bringing the Impossible Girl into the Doctor’s life. Knowing it was Clara who would change things, who would inevitably talk the Doctor(s) out of using the Moment.
The scene with the three of them, with their hands on the Big Red Button – THAT’s where the original timeline changed. Because Clara was now there to convince them not to do it.24 January 2014 at 00:45 #24572Anonymous @
Interesting @brewski very thoughtful and persuasive. I need more time to think about it but one thing I find compelling is that Clara always spoke about being born behind a clock. I wonder if the Moment, being a clicking, ticking weapon, was somehow near her….at least metaphorically. After all, The Moment doesn’t fly around ticking: it has a human presence. But if The Moment appeared to Clara to give her the telephone number, in which form did she do this?
I was under the impression that The Moment used the data base (incorporating Rose) as her physical presence: it was known to The War Doctor -and only he could see it? So are you suggesting that the data base changed her appearance (a ‘not -Rose’) to speak to Clara or stayed the same? We’ve often assumed that it was Rose who somehow gave the number to Clara and yet, in the timeline, that couldn’t work. So some of use thought it was River, or a relative of Susan Foreman.
Hmmm postulating and thnking…. Kindest, purofilion24 January 2014 at 01:37 #24574
Hi @purofilion. Thanks.
My original thoughts about Clara and the Clock Face involved a Chameleon watch. (I posted that on the Fan Creativity forum recently.) But I think most of that didn’t pan out. (And was not entirely serious. 🙂 )
You are right about the form chosen by the Moment. It probably would not chosen Rose since this had no meaning to her. However, remember that Rose had no meaning to the War Doctor, either. The Moment chose a form from the Doctor’s FUTURE.
It is still possible that the “woman in the shop” was the Moment looking like someone Clara will know later.24 January 2014 at 02:18 #24575Anonymous @
The Moment was responsible for bringing the Impossible Girl into the Doctor’s life. Knowing it was Clara who would change things, who would inevitably talk the Doctor(s) out of using the Moment.
There have been a lot of theories about Clara being part of the Moment’s plans, but yours makes the connection with “the woman in the shop”. I am not certain you are the first, but I don’t remember thinking that before. IMO, that’s a good one. I am almost certain the Moment (Bad Wolf form to me) played a part in bringing Clara and Doctor together. I think your theory is probably right, since that is when the ‘Real Clara’ first contacted him.
If the Moment gave the number, I just wonder how she did it now? Since, as you mentioned, only the War Doctor could see her. So, that is still a mystery to me. I hope we eventually get to see the answer to that. But considering how powerful she is, you would think finding a way to give a number would not be that difficult. 🙂24 January 2014 at 02:37 #24577Anonymous @
@barnable and @brewski if, as previously mentioned, the Moment and Time Energy/vortex and other material which formed the TARDIS are similar artefacts of Gallifreyan space, then we can assume that The Moment could re-form and create a person (temporarily) which could attract Clara Prime’s attention.
This person could easily be, as Brewski said, from Clara’s future (as Bad Wolf was ‘all time and space, as the time vortex is also). As to “only the War Doctor [being able] to see her”, could The Moment (being a Vortex artefact just as the TARDIS is) create this ‘person’ because it is what was ‘needed’ by Clara as opposed to what we (or Clara) generally ‘wanted’?
This is referred to a lot over a two season arc. How the physics behave is a mystery to me, too. Mind you, many of us have riffed the “take us where we are needed not where we want” motif to death. Personally, I love it 🙂
Kindest, pur.24 January 2014 at 04:15 #24578Anonymous @
I am glad you mentioned how the Moment appears to operate by some clockwork mechanism. Now I can definitely see the point you were making about Clara. Way too many clocks to be coincidence, but I still have no idea how any of the pieces go together though. TGitF ep had clockwork aliens in it, so I think I will try watching that again to see if there are any more clues.
Trying to answer, how Bad Wolf gave the number to Clara?, as “The woman in the shop”, might unravel the whole two time lines. 🙂 We should have got the answer before the old time line ended, if Bad Wolf did it. So now I’m going to have to change my mind on that (apologies @brewski 😳 ) and search for another possible “woman in the shop”. The only one I can think of would be River. Maybe Rose or Donna too ( 😮 Martha’s in UNIT) – LOL. I really don’t know?24 January 2014 at 04:51 #24579Anonymous @
@barnable yes, I agree but what if The Moment and The Bad Wolf energy are the same artefact? Could they operate on the same timeline? Could they operate on different timelines or on one timeline at different points in the continuum? Or even not in a linear continuum? So Bad Wolf is the Moment on some occasions but not others? It (The Moment) uses some vortex energy at different times to speed along a situation. We might call that particular vortex energy Bad Wolf. Also, whilst it appears (The Moment I mean) as RoseInterface to The War Doctor, to Clara, it might appear as someone different -it could be an AmyInterface (possibly not River) but to each corporeal person, the interface may look different. The vortex/Bad Wolf/interface may control its own ‘presentation’.
Kindest, pur24 January 2014 at 05:38 #24580
Interesting speculation, all of this. In my opinion, this is the biggest strand still hanging from the Impossible Girl arc; at least, it’s the one that bugs me the most!
My first thought was that The Moment as The Woman in the Shop made a lot of sense. But @barnable‘s point is well taken. From a “story-arc” perspective, I suspect that we are done with the Moment, and that there will be another explanation. I don’t think it can be River, since Clara didn’t appear to recognize her in the Name of the Doctor, when they met in Vastra’s seance. Martha would have been able to do it, but for what reason on earth would she have given the Doctor’s phone number to a strange woman in a shop? Ditto Rose and Amy.
It has to have been someone with the ability to know how necessary Clara will be. This takes us back to The Moment, except that we have had no evidence that the conscience of The Moment is able to manifest itself to anyone other than the person trying to use it. I have wondered whether it might be the Doctor’s mother, who was certainly able to appear to Wilf in The End of Time, so might be able to appear to Clara. But again, I’m not sure how she would have known that it was necessary to do this.
Deeply puzzling, this question!24 January 2014 at 05:58 #24582Anonymous @
@arbutus @barnable yes indeed, some posts ago I believed that the Moment was a one-off thing to be used, cleverly, to tie up that part of the Doctor’s History and to use Rose (a well loved character actor) in that Anniversary Special. Whilst there is no evidence that The Moment can re-manifest itself, I did wonder about its stopping point. After the War Doctor needed it no longer, where did it go and what happened to its energy? I believe that it contains vortex material and other Gallifreyan artefacts. Therefore it could manifest on other non linear time lines for slightly different reasons with the result (or the motive) being the same -convince and persuade for the sake of peace in the future or the past. If the Moment wandered into the Doctor’s timeline whereupon the GI was splintering itself (and the Claricles too), could The Moment change and re-sentiate. I’ve now totally made up a word! Cool 🙂 OK, settle down, purofilion24 January 2014 at 06:06 #24583Anonymous @
oh but hang on @barnable you said ‘if the timeline ended we should have got the answer from Bad Wolf’. I understand the 2 time line theory but I also say that Bad Wolf and The Moment can exist separate, together and on different streams. I think Bad Wolf certainly can. If it/she can then bits of her can connect with The Moment. Or at least Bad Wolf can re-appear if The Moment already has: if one does, the other can too? I think I’ve said this 3 times and it’s all bollocks! I’m reading the paper now 🙂24 January 2014 at 06:13 #24584Anonymous @
Hang on why are we talking about 2 time streams?? Why can’t there be three? They fold together innumerably, even: “two places where time and space was not meant to touch”. But the Doctor could be wrong. Could be there are more than two streams and more than two possible outcomes? I’ve a migraine coming ….wa wa wah.24 January 2014 at 06:15 #24585
@purofilion I’ve read the paper, and it’s all bollocks. 😆24 January 2014 at 07:21 #24588Anonymous @
@arbutus yes I know. Nothing but the Murdoch Press here which is terrifying. Even the TV channels -bar one, are all repetitive, fitting the 4-7 year old mind. It’s all droughts, bad boat people, fires. Words of 1-2 syllables. I read periodicals when I can: but like me, they babble and some are $15 per month. Madness for other reasons: education becoming elitist.24 January 2014 at 12:43 #24591Anonymous @
I also think that the ‘woman in the shop’ was The Moment. I think it’s also likely that the ‘mysterious woman’ in TEoT was also The Moment – not the Time Lady on Gallifrey but the one in the twin-set and pearls that only Wilf could see.
I seem to remember RTD stating (I think it was in the ‘Confidential’ for TEoT) that in his mind, she was The Doctor’s mum who was telepathically linking with Wilf but he deliberately left it unanswered as a ‘leaving present’ for SM to answer.
It kind of makes sense for her to have been The Moment as well – helping Wilf to make sure that The Doctor didn’t die at the hands of The Master (and I mean actually died, with no chance of regenerating). If he had, then Eleven wouldn’t have existed which would have messed up the pressing/not pressing the BRB scenario.24 January 2014 at 14:47 #24595
@fatmaninabox I think it’s also likely that the ‘mysterious woman’ in TEoT was also The Moment – not the Time Lady on Gallifrey but the one in the twin-set and pearls that only Wilf could see.
This is an interesting thought. The timing would be right (pun intended), since we know this is when the War Doctor has just stolen The Moment. Also, glad you clarified that you mean only the vision seen by Wilf, and not the Time Lady whose form she took.
This could mean that the Time Lady is someone Wilf knows in HIS future, which is why The Moment once again took a form she thought would be recognizable to the person. (But still muddling up the past/future thing.)24 January 2014 at 14:54 #24596
@barnable Trying to answer, how Bad Wolf gave the number to Clara?, as “The woman in the shop”, might unravel the whole two time lines. We should have got the answer before the old time line ended, if Bad Wolf did it. So now I’m going to have to change my mind on that (apologies @brewski ) and search for another possible “woman in the shop”. The only one I can think of would be River. Maybe Rose or Donna too ( Martha’s in UNIT) – LOL. I really don’t know?
No apologies necessary. 🙂 However, I might need some Clara-fication. I do not see The Moment as being Bad Wolf in any way other than her outward appearance. She (The Moment) was only using a form she thought the Doctor would recognize and feel comfortable with. She was just confused about whether the form was from his past or future.
So how does the “real” Bad Wolf’s timeline have any bearing on this?
As far as the Woman in the Shop being River, Rose, Martha et al, well… those thought have been done to death it seems. And in this land of whacky theories, its just a lot more fun to think outside the blue box.24 January 2014 at 17:49 #24598
@brewski I hadn’t thought of this, but yes, the mysterious woman’s appearances to Wilf and the Doctor taking The Moment did happen somewhat simultaneously. Better and better, because I never found the idea of the woman being the Doctor’s mother especially interesting.
So then, we have the Moment, activated by the Doctor, intervening simultaneously in several different places on the timeline. She helps the Tenth Doctor by ensuring that Wilf is at his side to be, in a way, his conscience, and to ensure that his fixed-point regeneration happens on schedule. She helps the Eleventh Doctor by ensuring that he meets Clara, who saves him throughout time, acts as his conscience thereby preventing him from destroying Gallifrey, and helps him to survive Trenzalore by addressing the Time Lords on his behalf. (I know that we’ve debated exactly why the Time Lords would help the Doctor based on Clara’s plea, but I think it’s fair to assume that there is a connection.) And of course, she introduces Captain Grumpy to his future selves, thereby enabling the Eleventh Doctor to prevent the destruction of Gallifrey.
Timey-wimey, anyone? 🙂24 January 2014 at 19:08 #24602Anonymous @
This could mean that the Time Lady is someone Wilf knows in HIS future
Or his past? Read further for a very bonkers theory 🙂
I never found the idea of the woman being the Doctor’s mother especially interesting.
To be honest, despite RTD stating that ‘Mysterious Time Lady’ (henceforth know as MTL) was The Doctor’s mum, I’ve never believed that she was. I’ve always thought (perhaps bizarrely) that she’s a regenerated Donna.
The Doctor told Donna that if she ever remembered him, it would kill her. Well, she remembered him (or at least had visions of him) in TEoT and, despite a severe headache, didn’t die. She’s part Time Lord so should, theoretically, be able to regenerate (but maybe not as many times). MTL also told Wilf ‘she was lost once’ – Donna, with her memory suppression, could be said to be lost.
Having regenerated, Wilf wouldn’t recognise her but The Doctor would be able to ‘sense’ who she was (and he definitely seemed to recognise her). Of course, how she ended up on Gallifrey is a mystery for someone else to solve 😀24 January 2014 at 19:23 #24604
@arbutus I never found the idea of the woman being the Doctor’s mother especially interesting.
Agreed. I really wanted her to be a Post Library Sort-Of-Regeneration of River. One whom the Doctor recognizes as part of his past (since she is moving backward along his timeline) but NOT recognize later as River Song.
(This does not change the above discussion of The Moment being the woman who appeared to Wilf, since THAT would only have an image that was chosen by the Moment.)24 January 2014 at 19:30 #24605
@fatmaninabox To be honest, despite RTD stating that ‘Mysterious Time Lady’ (henceforth know as MTL) was The Doctor’s mum, I’ve never believed that she was. I’ve always thought (perhaps bizarrely) that she’s a regenerated Donna.
Whoo! Ya gotta love that for shear bat-poo bonkers! We are all agreed that MTL as the Doctor’s mother is BO-RING! I’m glad RTD decided not to make that explicit. Or we’d have a helluva time twisting our way out of that! 😀24 January 2014 at 19:40 #24606Whisht @whisht
following (and frankly not-quite-following) all this is fun!
Based solely on the posts here (without, y’know, re-watching the episodes and giving it any deeper thought…..)
@arbutus – when you describe something helping the Doctor and Wilf along the timelines, if you were to replace the word “Moment” with “Clara” then it would also make sense…
(Claricle helps Claricle find Dr; Claricle helps Wilf help Dr). Its almost as if Clara is an entity of vortex energy that has aspects of Clara, Moment and Bad Wolf…)
oh, and now I’ve mentioned something that might appeal to the three-in-one aspect of so many different mystical myths.
and @fatmaninabox – I love the Donna theory! oh I’m sure there are people here who could get her to Gallifrey in bonkers-seconds flat!24 January 2014 at 21:19 #24607
I’ve always thought (perhaps bizarrely) that she’s a regenerated Donna. Oh, cool. It may be bizarre, but I like it. Maybe it’s just a reflection of my deep affection for Donna. She is my favourite AG companion, and I hated what happened to her. Somehow becoming enough of a Time Lord to be able to regenerate would be so much better!
A further argument in favour is that, if she and the Meta-Crisis Doctor exchanged genetic material, someone should have come out of it with the ability to regenerate, and it certainly wasn’t the MC Doctor.
The Moment being the woman who appeared to Wilf, since THAT would only have an image that was chosen by the Moment. And in fact, the Time Lord Donna theory would explain why the Moment chose to appear to Wilf in that form. Just as it chose Bad Wolf Rose without realizing that the Doctor had not yet met her, she could have unknowingly chosen Wilf’s granddaughter in a form of which he was unaware. Because, you know, past and future, so complicated.
@whisht Well, certainly we have three different beings capable of spreading themselves through space and time to influence events. Maybe they are One. Uh oh, Unscheduled Faith Change ahead!24 January 2014 at 21:49 #24609Anonymous @
You are right, that the Moment could have done it still (even on two time lines). But on two time lines, I don’t see how we can get an answer since Bad Wolf no longer exists (IMO). The Moment could have a shared consciousness with Bad Wolf though, that would allow us to get an answer still. But in that case, the Doctor would have to meet the Moment again in the future for that to happen.
The Moment could have made contact with Rose, Martha, River, etc… and told them to be the “woman in the shop”?
But after watching tBoSJ again, I started to wonder, why the Doctor was waiting at the monastery? I think he was there to avoid running into any more Claricles, while he waited for Whomever he asked to help him locate the Real Clara. He probably asked everyone he could think of since he didn’t know, ‘where in time she would be?’ That explains his asking, “Who gave you this number?” So that is why I think the ‘woman in the shop’ was probably someone the Doctor knew. And we can still get the answer sometime in the future since the Doctor knows who it was (even if the person -woman in the shop- no longer remembers the other time line).24 January 2014 at 22:14 #24611Anonymous @
Very interesting theories. I forgot all about the mystery lady from TEoT, so I haven’t even started to think about how she might have been involved. I will try to join in on your theory, after I re-watch some episodes and think on it a bit.24 January 2014 at 22:35 #24612
@brewski, @barnable and @arbutus – with regard to The Woman In The Shop, my personal theory is that it was Sarah Jane Smith. Who ‘recognised’ Clara because she’d also seen the photos of Clara and the Smith Doctor in various situations in the past. So she gave this younger Clara the TARDIS phone number, making sure that she did meet up with the Doctor.
The Woman In The Shop being The Moment is superbly bonkers, so I’d suggest the following: the Moment doesn’t have to create any kind of physical body. As the scene with the Oswalds showed, it’s pretty easy for Time Lord technology to transmit a hologram to someone’s visual/audio cortex. Since the Moment could only be seen and heard by the Hurt Doctor, it’s a reasonable guess that she was doing just that.
It’s quite possible that Clara was the only person who ever ‘saw’ The Woman In The Shop – and never realised that she wasn’t talking to a real person. The Moment was projecting her image (and telling her the phone number) straight into Clara’s brain.24 January 2014 at 23:56 #24616Anonymous @
@barnable @ Whisht @brewski @bluesqueakpip @arbutus why am I always asleep (or with migraine) when these great theories are out and about. In my mind, I see all these wonderful people with theories on a leash wandering about in cyberland. The leashes break and the theories take on a life of their own. They start to talk about their ‘masters’; the people themselves, and laugh about which person they think is more sensible and likely.
Right, the Moment doesn’t need a physical body to manifest -it just helps 🙂 Reminds me of BoSJ with the spoon heads delivering vast data into someone’s brain? So the Woman in the Shop existed for Clara’s sake only and information could be transmitted (like a thought transmat) into her mind (as per Bluesqueakpip’s point)
Light years ago 🙂 I postulated the idea that Bad Wolf and The Moment were made from Vortex energy and were Gallifreyan artefacts. So The Moment can be seen by the Hurt Dr in that timeline at the necessary point, but Bad Wolf is interspersed across time acting where it is significant to do so. The Moment can change, IMHO, to suit conditions and time lines due to its unique energy. “Can the real Bad Wolf have any bearing on this”? (@Brewski), yes I think so: as the energy is TimeLord and exists across time and space.
As for the Woman being The ‘Wilf Lady’, brilliant idea @fatmaninabox !….more to think about. I agree with others that the White Lady being the Dr’s mother seemed to be a desperate hope from those knowing how lonely this ‘Lonely God’ was. From later seasons, we begin to see that the Doctor has marvellous friends who have looked after him during “the most terrible times” and have answered him when others have called out (on his behalf). The Doctor now looks forward.25 January 2014 at 04:46 #24619
@bluesqueakpip I think that the Sarah Jane idea is quite plausible. She’s the kind of person who might have done such a thing without even really knowing why she was doing it, beyond a general understanding of how the Doctor’s universe works!
I’d agree that if it were the Moment, that’s exactly how it would have worked: a mental image, just like the one that Captain Grumpy saw. I think that if we are going assume that the Moment did anything anywhere, there has to be a way to tie it in with the Doctor’s activation of the device and awakening of the Conscience, because personally, I’m not convinced that there is an entity that can exist free of the device.
@purofilion We know that Bad Wolf was definitely created (inadvertently) from the Time Vortex, when it merged with Rose. It would be reasonable to guess that The Moment is also created somehow from the Time Vortex, as it was made by the Time Lords and its conscience is able to manipulate time and space to some degree. Which brings me back to wondering what The Moment would actually have done to Gallifrey. I like to think that it is capable of something more significant than simply blowing things up! Maybe it removes a planet’s future from the time continuum in some frightening way? Something to do with the Time Vortex from which it was created. Hmm. Not great at doomsday concepts, myself, but it seems as though it ought to be something pretty big.25 January 2014 at 09:21 #24621Anonymous @
@arbutus yes I agree….to a point. In real world ideas of script and cinema, the Moment existed and…its story is over. We knew about it before, we finally saw tBRB…the fact 🙂 it’s made of some time vortex energy or Gallifreyan whatsit is very interesting but I don’t really see how it can actually work. I want to know who the Woman in the Shop is, but like the pond and ducks, maybe this was left ‘hanging’ (although we know about the Pond and the filming issue there). I’m not sure we need to know: but I expect we will and it will be a pedestrian answer. Funny, today, I feel a bit ‘well, oh whatever’ and so my care-factor is limited; my bonkers ideas burnt out! Could be the rain, could be I’m tired…who knows 🙁 Kindest to you. In the morning, I expect a lot of wonderful ideas will assert themselves from ‘youse’.25 January 2014 at 10:23 #24624demafromua @demafromua
I actually wonder – what brought all Doctors from First to Ninth to Gallifrey? How did they know when and where to come? The didn’t even know about the Time War in the first place! If this was already explained, please, point me in right direction.
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