The Day of the Doctor

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  • #24637
    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    @fatmaninabox, @arbutus, @brewski

    I never found the idea of the woman being the Doctor’s mother especially interesting.

    Me neither. I’ve been trying to put together some understanding of the political history of Gallifrey during the Time War. How did Rassilon come to resume control of Gallifrey? Given that he had to wake from his eternal sleep to take over, it seems unlikely that he would have been able to use the proper constitutional means to take over. This suggests a coup d’état. Perhaps he was originally revived as Gallifrey’s greatest general to lead the Time Lords militarily against the Daleks, but he used the troops’ loyalty to him to overthrow the sitting President.

    (Such an action would be consistent with a popular idea about Rassilon’s first seizure of power, in which he overthrew the government of Gallifrey with the troops he’d led against the Great Vampires, but I digress).

    The woman seemed to me to be more a prisoner of Rassilon than an aide. This suggests to me that she was the deposed President, who still had some use to Rassilon. So why her apparent connection to the Doctor? Because he had saved her life in the past, and it was on his advice and encouragement that she ran for President in the first place, on the last occasion we saw the Time Lords in the Old Series.

    Conclusion: The woman was the Inquisitor.

    #24667
    Anonymous @

    Hello @demafromua.  🙂  The explanation I believe is that bringing all the doctors together at the same place and time would be a paradox that could not happen without the Moment’s involvement, similar to how we saw her bring WD, Tenn, and Eleven together.  We just didn’t get to see it.  Not only did the early Doctors show up, but 12 did too (and he didn’t even regenerate yet).  But he should remember to show up from his memories of Eleven (who I believe remembers the events of DotD, unlike WD and Tenn).   The doctors who didn’t know about the Time War yet, should have forgot their involvement afterwards too.  Maybe there is another answer that we just haven’t learned yet?

    #24892
    Krys636 @krys636

    So did anybody else squeal with delight when River showed up (More correctly when ‘Not the one with the big hair’ was said) and then just teared when she faded away. Oh my I’ll learn to adore Clara but will always Love dear dear River.

    #24970
    Brewski @brewski

    Here is a multi-part question for my fellow theorizers. (Caution, the questions may contain some trickery):

    1. Why did the War Doctor not remember the events in The Day of the Doctor?
    2. Are you sure?

    There may be follow-up questions.

    #24972
    Anonymous @

    @brewski  my answer is:

    1.      it is always sexier and more tele-visual to have a haunted and guilty character than one who is not

    2.     yes

    Kindest, puro

    PS: probably not what you’re looking for! 😉

    #24974
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @brewski

    Aha, a puzzle. I worked out a lovely complicated explanation for why the Doctor doesn’t remember what happened in DotD. Then I looked at your question again. If you are asking why the War Doctor specifically doesn’t remember, then that’s easy. Because he regenerated immediately afterward and didn’t get the chance to remember or not.

    In fact, that’s a actually a cool thought. Maybe Nine, Ten, and Eleven didn’t remember saving Gallifrey because Captain Grumpy regenerated immediately afterward, and regeneration confusion/memory loss set in and removed the recollection from his mind. Although, the doctors all did seem to know that they wouldn’t remember, in any case.

    My other explanation has to do with the Tenth Doctor’s line “The time streams are out of sync”, and some confused thoughts about what that actually means vis a vis the dual time stream theory. I think that the period of time when the three doctors are together is the point of divergence. But eventually time heals itself, and brings those two time streams into sync with one another, leaving only the smallest differences between the two. This is why the doctor will forget: all three incarnations are aware of both streams of events now, because the time streams are still out of sync, but once they are realigned, the doctor will forget what happened when they were out of sync.

    In answer to question 2, the answer is no. Not remotely!  🙂

    #24980
    Brewski @brewski

    Hi @purofilion.  Your answer has given me a lot to think about.   Now if I could just figure out what that is. 😛

    @arbutus I started liking the notion of War Doctor not remembering because of his regeneration following immediately. But, as you say, that does not explain 10’s loss of memory.

    “The time streams are out of sync”, and some confused thoughts about what that actually means vis a vis the dual time stream theory. I think that the period of time when the three doctors are together is the point of divergence.

    I think this is the “generally accepted” answer.  And is the one (quelle surprise) that I have a problem with.  Here’s why:

    If the time lines go out of sync at the moment an earlier Doctor meets up with a later one, then the War Doctor SHOULD have retained his memory of the events prior to that.  Specifically, his meeting the user interface to the Moment.

    His memory loss wouldn’t begin until she pushed him into his own future.

    That being the case, he would have to recognize Rose Tyler when he met her shortly thereafter.

    Why did he have NO recollection his interacting with the Moment at all?  (And yet knew he’d used it.)

     

    #24981
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @brewski

    Why did he have NO recollection his interacting with the Moment at all? (And yet knew he’d used it.)

    Um, probably because (in the two time streams theory) his interaction in Time Stream A probably consisted of:

    Moment: Are you really going to do this?
    The War Doctor: Yes.
    Moment: B*gg*r.
    😉

    Without Clara there, there’s no way the Doctor is going to change his mind. Three of him together won’t change his mind… and The Moment, who can see past, present and future, will know that.

    So it would have been a terribly unexciting interaction (well, apart from Gallifrey blowing up, billions dying, bits of Daleks all over the place, that sort of stuff).

    #24983
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Much bonkersness all over the place!

    😀

    @arkleseizure

    re Rassilon – my fav theory is that could have been the “alternative plan” that the High Council were cooking up while the rest of Gallifrey was out fighting Daleks in the streets. Defrost the nearest, most powerful megalomaniac and set him to work. The MTL (and 1 other?) covered their faces because they were ashamed of having been part of the plan, but realised there was nothing they could do to stop Rassilon. At least not without most likely sacrificing themselves, and, unlike the Doctor, they are not prepared to go that far. They will still take their chances on some degree of self preservation with Rassilon.

    @arbutus

    but once they are realigned, the doctor will forget what happened when they were out of sync.

    That’s possible, but I think it’s also likely that the Doctor will still remember  both/all versions. Even Amy, as a non Time Lord time traveller remembered conflicting versions of events (having/not having parents)

    @bluesqueakpip ( nice alternating timeline sort of a new avatar btw 😉 )

    So it would have been a terribly unexciting interaction (well, apart from Gallifrey blowing up, billions dying, bits of Daleks all over the place, that sort of stuff).

    OTOH it would have made a certain faction of fandom deliriously happy!

    #24987
    Anonymous @

    @brewski  I guess I became confused with the re-explanation you wrote? 🙂 Forgive me, but you said: “If the time streams go out of sync at the moment an earlier Doctor meets up with a later one, then the War Doctor SHOULD have retained his memory of the events prior to that.” Are you saying that the Hurt Doc should recall the exact events prior to changing into Eccelston, whilst he is the Eccelston Doctor and remembering the Clara/Tennant/Smith/Moment time stream?  Or are you suggesting that even Tennant should have some residual memory? Secondly, as we see Rose Tyler as The Moment, are we assuming the Hurt Doctor sees/views/interprets her the same way the Eccleston Doctor later sees her (as a corporeal Londoner in bad jeans 🙂 )?

    Kindest, puro

    #24995
    Brewski @brewski

    Hi @purofilion.

    Are you saying that the Hurt Doc should recall the exact events prior to changing into Eccelston, whilst he is the Eccelston Doctor and remembering the Clara/Tennant/Smith/Moment time stream? Or are you suggesting that even Tennant should have some residual memory?

     

    Neither.  I’m talking about the period of time AFTER the War Doctor activated the Moment (and talked with her in a form that looked like Rose Tyler/Bad Wolf) and but BEFORE the time she opened the time vortex and caused him to meet up with his future selves.

    Why does he have no recollection of THAT time?

    #24997
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @brewski   Yes, I agree that Rose becomes a problem. However, I think it could be pretty easily explained away. For instance, regenerative confusion might have led him to forget the form taken by the Moment. Or, perhaps the time streams went out of sync slightly earlier, as in when the conscience of the Moment first appears. This could be the point of change, since we know that the first time around, the interaction must have gone quite differently.

    #24998
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @scaryb    Except that if the doctor does remember both versions, that would imply a completely rewritten timeline, in which the doctor’s behaviour would probably be quite different than it was. But there’s nothing (in The Time of the Doctor, at least) to indicate that the doctor now has a past that differs in any significant way from his first one.

    Amy”s situation is hard to compare to, because I think we know less about it. We don’t know exactly when the time streams un-synched in her case, nor do we know exactly how closely they re-aligned afterward. And there must have been three time streams, one in which she had parents, one in which the cracks appeared and she lost them, and a third in which the parents were back. It may not have been possible for all that divergence to properly realign, which might have been why she was confused and remembered both having and not having parents.

    #24999
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @purofilion     That’s a cool notion, that Captain Grumpy might actually see The Moment/Bad Wolf as looking and acting fairly different than Rose Tyler, to the point where Nine might not actually recognize her when he encounters her later. There, @brewski, there’s a third possible explanation for the Rose Tyler/Moment memory problem!

    #25003
    Brewski @brewski

    @arbutus brewski, there’s (@purofilion’s) a third possible explanation for the Rose Tyler/Moment memory problem!

    Hehheheh… I love this!  We get to come up with these terribly serious theories AND revel in the sheer nuttiness of them.

    Kudos to both of these explanations!

     

     

     

    #25005
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @arbutus

    Re reconciling timestreams – Amy asks the Doctor explicitly at one point why she can remember 2 versions of events and the Dr explains it’s because she’s a timetraveller now, and lives partly outside time. So while the timestreams themselves will realign, it’s more than likely that the Doctor, as both a timetraveller and a TimeLord, will remember various different versions. Maybe the aborted ones are fainter or something. I presume the doctor’s view of all of time and space is somewhere between human linearity and TARDIS/Moment simultaneous bonkersness.

    Re why the War Doctor doesn’t remember The Moment/Rose (before she/it creates the portal) – maybe because things get timey wimey as soon as the Moment is activated,  not just from when the future Doctors get brought in. But I also like the idea that he doesn’t necessarily see her as “Rose”.

    @brewski

    Hehheheh… I love this!  We get to come up with these terribly serious theories AND revel in the sheer nuttiness of them

    haha – that’s what it’s about 🙂

     

    #25007
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @scaryb   My only problem with this is that I thought that it had been stated pretty explicitly that the Doctor will not remember. That is, Eleven remembers it happening after the place in his timeline when it occurred, but that up until that point, he has had no recollection of it. This suggests that the only way for him to now remember it would be if there really has been a rewriting of all the events of the AG series up until TotD, because if he can remember it now, that means that he has remembered it all along. I guess this is possible, but I can’t say I would be comfortable with it as it would mean that we now have no idea of the Doctor’s history between the Time War and now.

    I can only explain the conflict between this explanation and what the Doctor said to Amy as a result of there being something specific to this situation that is different to others. I suspect that if there is, it has to do with the Doctor crossing his own timeline. Because presumably all those earlier doctors who show up to help save Gallifrey won’t remember it, either.

    Okay. Head hurting now. Need more tea. (And possibly to get back to my actual work!)   🙂

    #25008
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @arbutus

    Ah, now I see your problem.

    Eleven remembers everything, but only once he’s experienced the events in DotD. He doesn’t remember as 9, 10 and 11 – up till it happens in 11’s timeline – because it doesn’t happen till then! Before that it’s the old Timelords crossing their own futures/pasts don’t remember get-out clause. Although Eleven has a “moment” when the whirly portal appears, and the fez. Which does beg the question of whether he could have remembered it before it happened (to Eleven), if he’d been given the right psychiatric help at a young age!

     

    #25009
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @scaryb   Okay, yes, I think we were actually talking about two different things.  🙂  Because I was trying to figure out why the Doctor as Nine, Ten, and most of Eleven would not be able to remember these events, based on the line about the time streams being out of sync– which as you suggest is probably just technobabble for “get out of jail free card so that different doctors aren’t stuck knowing all kinds of things about the future that they shouldn’t, because of having met their future selves in a timey-wimey way”!    😀

    And yes, Eleven should not have been able to remember the appearance of the fez followed by himself, except that if he hadn’t, he wouldn’t have known to throw the fez and jump in. This is the same thing that came up in Time Crash, when Ten and Five met, and Ten remembered what to do because Five saw him do it.

    Sometimes I think being a DW fan is a lot like being a Baker Street Irregular. It is really, really difficult getting all this stuff to make sense, when we can’t just admit that the answer is “the writers change the rules to suit themselves”!

    #25012
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus and @scaryb I think I recall the Doctor ‘forgetting’ a few things around this time/during the ToftD. He also looked confused when he saw the whirlpool and then finally said: “I kind of remember this. This is where I come in”. I imagine that experiencing events in his timestream when he jumped in to save Clara could have either triggered the later memories or, as we also saw, caused ‘mindwobble’. Kindest, puro.

    #25015
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @everyone – I think, myself, that the fez is covered by the events in Christmas Carol. Kazran ‘remembers’ the events in his ‘past’ as they are changed by the Doctor.

    Similarly, the Smith Doctor ‘remembers’ the fez as the Moment changes his past by opening a time portal.

    #25017
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip eloquent as usual! yes, the Moment opens the portal thru which he jumps thus changing his past and affecting, as well as effecting, the future? This he remembers as it is happening.

    #25018
    Arbutus @arbutus

    Ah yes, @purofilion, mindwobble, I hate when that happens!  🙂

    #25021
    Anonymous @

    @brewski

     In DotD, Eleven recognized the painting and the fez. I think this is explained by his being inside of his time stream in NotD.  @bluesqueakpip ‘s explanation is very good also. Eleven definitely remembers the events of DotD, because he mentions it in TotD (he remembers trying but he is still unsure if the TLs were successfully saved in the paintings).  

     The memory loss of the other doctors is best explained by two time lines (IMO), because in that case, the events we saw in DotD did not happen the first time the WD had the Moment.  If the Moment Interface/Bad Wolf wasn’t there the first time, then that explains why the WD used the Moment the first time, but he didn’t use it in DotD (the second time).  And since Bad Wolf/Moment Interface wasn’t there the first time then the WD, Nine, Ten, and Eleven would not recognize Rose the first time they met her on the time line we saw.  I believe the Rose/Moment Interface (in DotD) was really Bad Wolf (energy form traveling back in time to change history on the first time line).  (After history was changed, the second time line was created) maybe the doctors remember DotD on that hidden time line, and might even recognize Rose then (new time line only).   Who knows if things would change on that time line, even if they did recognize her on the new time line?  But I think this explanation would be a great way for the show to take a new direction if things did changed, but that will be up to what the producers want. 

     The time streams being out of sync are another possible explanation.   It is the best explanation for the memory loss on one time line.  The writers say that the result of the “out of sync” is memory loss; therefore no further explanation is required.  But just for fun, my bonkers explanation is the Moment has a “mind erase power” she used to prevent the doctors from knowing too much about their futures. 🙂

    #25023
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus @Purofilion

    @scaryb

    Eleven remembers everything, but only once he’s experienced the events in DotD.

    I agree with this ScaryB, but didn’t know how to explain it.  I think it has to be the case, if there are two time lines.  It is the best explaination for the memory loss on two time lines. 

    On the first time line they don’t remember because they haven’t experienced the events of DotD yet.

    On the second time line they do or should remember the events of DotD. (But we haven’t seen that time line so we don’t know for sure yet).

     

    #25025
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @barnable

    But the doctors themselves agree that they will not be able to remember, both the War Doctor and Ten say it specifically. So I really don’t think there’s any question of them remembering it on the second time line, unless they were wrong when they said it. But I would expect the Doctor to know how these things work.

    Also, on an artistic level, I’ll admit I don’t like the notion of a massive retcon that renders the entire run of the new series to this point irrelevant. And if, in the second time stream, the Doctor remembers not destroying Gallifrey, there are so, so many events that would have to happen differently, that we would have to assume that much of what we have watched since 2004 has now never happened. I get that the showrunners can do that if they want to, but in my view it would be pretty cheap. (Hopefully that’s not too ARSE of a viewpoint!  🙁  )  Personally, if the out of sync time stream thing seems just too vague, I rather prefer @barnable‘s Moment-mind-power idea over the idea that the Doctor actually can remember what happened. It’s actually a perfectly reasonable idea. And of course, by remembering, I mean prior to the Eleventh experiencing the events himself.

    I also like @bluesqueakpip‘s idea that the Moment, in a sense, allows him to remember the fez by opening the portal in front of him (like a memory jog).

    #25027
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus –  I agree that @bluesqueakpip ‘s explanation is great, the more I think about it the more I like it.  😉

     But the doctors themselves agree that they will not be able to remember, both the War Doctor and Ten say it specifically.

     They definitely do say that, and they were not lying.  But I don’t think that proves they won’t remember it on the second time line. (WD regenerates so really doesn’t matter for him) Ten came from the first time line and I think he returned back to the first time line, where he doesn’t remember DotD.  However, I believe a second version of Nine and Ten existed on the second time line (once it was created).  They existed at the same time as the first versions, but on the second time line they do remember the DotD.  The two separate versions of the doctors would be just like the second versions of Mickey Smith and Rose’s Dad in the parallel universe (same people but completely different personalities).

     No matter which theory explains the memory loss, I can understand how the AG series could be considered pointless now. That is unavoidable because a major plot point of the story (last of the TLs) was changed, so all the torment the doctors went through was (for lack of a better term) pointless. 

     Under the one time line theory, Was the Moment ever actually used?  Even if it was used, the TLs were never really destroyed; the doctor just thought they were.  We watched him suffer because he simply didn’t remember saving them.  So the torment we watched was only the doctor’s mistaken belief that he killed them.  That to me would be pointless since it never actually happened.

     Under two time line theory, the doctor did use the Moment and he did kill all the TLs.  So the torment the doctor went through was ‘Real’ on the first time line.  But he went back and changed his past, creating the new time line (which does make the first time line obsolete in a sense).  But the first time line is not completely pointless because it still happened and created the second time line.

    We would have to assume that much of what we have watched since 2004 has now never happened.

    The things we saw did happen still, they might have been changed on the new time line though.  I don’t have a problem with something I thought happened changing,  so long as there is an explanation for why it changed.  That happens a lot in DW and I really enjoy it when it does happen (Teselecta 🙂 ).  But I do see your point that it is like finding out it was all just a dream now. However, I enjoyed the AG stories so much, that I can never see them as pointless.  I think the most important thing is just to find an explanation for ourselves that will allow us to still enjoy the episodes and not feel ripped off. 

     DW is a kids show (that adults can love too) so there needs to be a simple explanation that they can grab onto.  But I think there could also be a complicated explanation, which I would prefer.  DW has always been able to satisfy both groups in the past, so I don’t think that will be a problem this time.

    #25029
    Anonymous @

    bye bye

    #25031
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus and @everyone

    I apologize for waffling a bit on the two time line theory.  I definitely like the two time lines for explaining the memory loss.  But I am completely unsure about how much the doctors changed on the second time line.  That is why I have been wibbly-wabbly on it lately (hence the amendment I posted). 

    It really is up to the writers now, on how much they want to change.  Maybe they will change nothing or change alot, both are possible and completely believable.  That is really what I like most about the two time line theory, because I don’t know what will happen next.   I have never been able to figure out what will happen next and I hope I never will.   That’s truely my favourite thing about DW.  Surprises  🙂

    #25032
    Anonymous @

    @barnable so you’re saying that  Nine wouldn’t recognise Rose because she hadn’t yet ‘gone back in time’ to be Bad Wolf? Only when she had become Bad Wolf could she then take on the appearance of Bad Wolf as The Moment? So then if The Moment, as you say in an earlier post, is Bad Wolf, then we might not really have one or two time streams but a cyclic/circular or folded- over universe which is obviously changing, depending on where you happen to hop on or off.

    #25034
    Anonymous @

    @RTDFan  “bye bye” ? Are you leaving us? 🙁  Are the bonkerised ideas=bonkerideas) causing you to throw up? 🙂

    Stay!  Kindest, purofilion

    #25036
    Anonymous @

    @purofilion

    Hi 🙂

    Nine wouldn’t recognise Rose because she hadn’t yet ‘gone back in time’ to be Bad Wolf?

    I think that might be right. 

    I was saying that there were two different senarios for when the WD had the Moment.  I think we never saw the first time WD had the Moment with him.  If that’s true then I think it was just a box sitting there.  There was no Moment Interface/Bad Wolf there to talk to the first time.

    DotD was the second time WD had the Moment with him.  I believe the Moment Interface we saw as Rose was really Bad Wolf from the future (DotD time of Eleven).  I think Bad Wolf had the ability to travel back in time (from the time of DotD of Eleven) to talk with the WD.  She chose the time of DotD before going back to the WD, because Clara was with Eleven by then (and they were learning about the paintings). All the peices were then ready for Bad Wolf to help the Doctor change his past. Clara was the important part of Bad Wolf’s plans to change the WD’s mind of not using the Moment.  And the paintings were used to save the TLs.

    Since the DotD of Eleven happened way after Bad Wolf met Rose, then you could be right about Bad Wolf only taking the appearance of people she has met already. 

    Thanks for helping me explain it better.

    #25038
    Anonymous @

    @barnable you always explain things well! You have an excellent handle on all the wibbly stuff which can set my teeth on edge-I’m more intuitive than conceptual? So, understanding theoretical physics and entertaining ideas about time streams is tough for me to do, let alone explain it all in a sensible fashion. Kindest, puro.

    #25039
    Anonymous @

    @barnable as the Interface/Moment was sentient we can assume (maybe that’s a bad word!) that it learns as it goes and changes its mind, yes? Therefore, it probably was more than a ‘box’ the ‘first’ time but not what it came to be during the later (second or continual cyclic) time….line. It modelled itself on what the WD needed and of course that included something powerful like the Rose Image and also Clara’s necessary involvement. She was the one who ultimately gave him the final nod. The Moment gave the kick-start…but then it stalled… Or the Doctor did. Kindest.. puro

    #25040
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @barnable

    But the first time line is not completely pointless because it still happened and created the second time line.

    It’s not pointless at all! The Smith Doctor said: “Gentlemen, I’ve had 400 years to think about this…”

    If Gallifrey had never been destroyed, there wouldn’t have been anything to think about. He wouldn’t have gone through every possible solution in his head (each time coming to the conclusion that it wouldn’t have worked). If he hadn’t gone through every possible solution, he wouldn’t have been able to realise that – now Clara and the Moment have changed things – that 400 year calculation trick can be used to save Gallifrey.

    More, those 400 years take him from a journey; away from ‘The Doctor’ to ‘Warrior of the Time War’, then moving from warrior to ‘hero’, finally back to ‘The Doctor’.

    Who is the Doctor? It took him 400 years to answer that question, after the Time War lost him his sense of ‘who’ he was.

    We may find that some parts of history are subtly different, but I doubt that there are major changes. As far as the rest of the universe is concerned, Gallifrey was known to have been destroyed. As far as the Doctor remembers, he destroyed it.

    The only difference is that in the Main time stream everyone later finds out that Gallifrey survived. The events before that discovery would proceed exactly as in the first time-stream. 😉

    #25041
    Anonymous @

    @purofilion – you are absolutely right that there are other possible explanations.  I just picked the one that makes the most sense to me and doesn’t make my entire theory implode. 🙂

    The Moment Interface could operate on a cyclic time line like you discribed.  Thinking about circle time lines will definitely make me dizzy though. 😮   You are a much better theorizer than me.  This could be the last good theory I ever come up with.  Where you seem to produce a new theory every night, very wibbly indeed.  😉

     

    #25042
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    I agree not pointless, just trying not to be too definite for those who disagree. 

    We may find that some parts of history are subtly different, but I doubt that there are major changes.

    That depends on what is considered a subtle change and major change.  I was thinking about changes like Amy and Rory not getting pulled into the past. Or River not getting saved into the library computer.  Or River still having the ability to regenerate.  I don’t know if those are subtle or major changes.

    I think that anything could change as long as the things we know for sure right now are not changed. 

    1. Clara is the Doctor’s companion
    2. Capaldi is the new Doctor
    3. TLs are in the paintings

    If these things are not affected, then things could have changed on the new time line, is all I was trying to say.  I am not certain what changes would not affect these things though. 

    1. Amy and Rory living might have stopped Clara becoming a companion? Or maybe it didn’t because the Doctor insisted they stop traveling with him.
    2. River not being in the computer might have prevented Eleven from reaching his tomb (NotD)?  But maybe she used the TL technology like Tasha Lem to communicate instead.

    I don’t know for sure what will change, but if the writers come up with a good reason why those changes would not affect the current things we know, then I think it would be fine to change them.  The two time lines leaves that possiblity open for the writers to decide. 

    Always a pleasure @bluesqueakpip 😀

    #25044
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @barnable – yes, Amy and Rory not getting stuck in the past would have meant that Clara was never a Companion. It’s a major change.

    Basically, the reason the Doctor is in Victorian England in the first place is that he’s in mourning for Amy, Rory and possibly River.

    If they hadn’t died, he wouldn’t have had an extended stay there; would never have met Victorian Clara; would never have got curious about Clara; would never have gone in search of Blackpool Clara; would never have taken her on board the TARDIS; would never have taken her to Trenzalore.

    Therefore Clara would never have stepped into the time-stream; Dalek Clara would never have saved Amy, Rory and the Doctor, and the resulting paradoxes would destroy the universe. Probably. It certainly wouldn’t like it.

    Which is why Rory can’t die. He has to die in New York, in his eighties. Not doing so will cause a really massive set of paradoxes.

    River not dying would also cause massive paradoxes; the Doctor’s entire life with her is coloured by his knowing the date of her death.

    But River not dying is also more thematic. The Doctor has to stop being the eternal child, afraid to be a grown up. The Man Who Forgets has to remember that he’s a Grandfather, a married man, probably a widower. The only way he can do that (that will be meaningful to the audience) is by going through that cycle again, in front of us.

    So he meets a girl, marries her, loses her. He grows old, he becomes Grandfather to the children of Christmas, he dies.

    Well, not quite. And not in that order. But this is a children’s story, and like a lot of children’s stories, it’s ‘about’ growing up. And like the very best children’s stories, it’s one that the adults will enjoy as well. 😀

    I discuss this a bit in my Wibbly-wobbley blog post.

    #25045
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

     You are correct that those would be the effects of changes to River, Rory, and Amy on one time line.  But I am talking about changes to a new time line that in no way changes the first time line. 

     The only example I have to use to help explain, how changes to the new time line never change the first time line is Amy’s parents.

     The crack in Amy’s wall that caused her parents to disappear was what brought the Doctor to Amy in the first place.  So on the first time line the crack in the wall should be a fixed point, that can not be changed or the Doctor would have never met Amy (paradox). 

     But they did change it.  Amy’s parents never disappeared on the new time line, because there was never a crack in the wall on the new time line.  On the new time line, Amy grew up with her parents and had birthdays, holidays, etc. that she and her parents both remember.  To her parents the first time line never happened, but Amy, Doctor, River, Rory all know it did happen because they are time travelers.  The first time line must have still happened or the tremendous wibbly-wobbley paradoxes would have destroyed the universe from the Doctor never meeting Amy.  So the new time line did not change the first time line, even though Amy and the Doctor would have never met each other on the second time line.

     If a new time line was created as a result of DotD, then the same rules should apply.  So if Amy and Rory never got pulled into the past on the new time line, it should not affect Clara meeting the Doctor on the first time line at all.  It still happened; Clara and the Doctor remember it happened, even if everyone else on the new time line never even remembers the first time line existed.

    Btw, Great Wibbly-Wobbley blog  🙂

    #25047
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @barnable     I think the most important thing is just to find an explanation for ourselves that will allow us to still enjoy the episodes and not feel ripped off.

    Agreed. This is why I also subscribe to the “create your own canon” school of fandom. Although if something in my personal canon is flatly contradicted by the show, I will usually, if ungracefully, give in. (Although not always– my Doctor is not half-human!  🙂  )

    In this case, I agree with @bluesqueakpipAs far as the rest of the universe is concerned, Gallifrey was known to have been destroyed. As far as the Doctor remembers, he destroyed it. This works for me, and I’m sticking to it!  🙂

    #25051
    Anonymous @

    @arbutus

    My Doctor is not half-human!

    I’m with you on that too.  That’s why I have no problem with “Rule No. 1”.  My Doctor definitely lies! 😆

    Re: Faces of the Doctor post – the Doctor changed his future in tWoRS.  (So the ripple affects were not noticeable from our point of view, but yes there was two time lines again).  We didn’t see the rest of the first time line, where the Doctor really got killed by River (My guess is, it would not have been good without the Doctor).  On the second time line he used the Teselecta to change his future and not die, and we saw what happened on the rest of that time line. 😀

    This works for me, and I’m sticking to it! 

    I think that should be my strap line. :mrgreen:

    #25114
    Monochrome Dimension @monochromedimension

    Okay this is nothing to do with any of the conversations currently going on in the thread… but I thought I’d mention it;

    In the scene where all the Doctor’s arrive to save Gallifrey, there are two Seventh Doctors. 😀 At one point he’s wearing his outfit from the series (without coat) and at another he’s in his TVM outfit (and of course his hair is longer). All thirteen Doctors eh? Nah… there were just two Sevenths!

    #25115
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Monochrome Dimension

    there are two Seventh Doctors.

    Yes, I noticed that as well.

    Clearly the Seventh got lumbered with the trickiest set of calculations – it took him his entire regeneration to work out where the decimal point went!
    🙂

    #25208
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #25248
    amypond6123 @amypond6123

    David T: its the white things!
    David T: what are the white things?
    Matt S: I don’t know but I LOVE them!
    David T: I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #27271
    wolfweed @wolfweed
    #27274
    Anonymous @

    @wolfweed thank you for the link to the great article. In fact all the articles you link to are wonderful!  I made the unfortunate mistake of reading the comments attached to the above link and boy were there a lot of illiterate, angry bunnies having a go at each other. I’m so glad I’m on this site where people are witty, sardonic and can…well…basically spell! Oh totally, dude.

    Kindest, purofilion-dudette.

    #27278
    janetteB @janetteb

    Thanks for the link @wolfweed. Glad  I didn’t make the mistake of reading the comments. I was having so much fun watching the fan vid’ which I hadn’t seen before. Let’s hope we can forever keep this wonderful site free of “illiterate, angry bunnies”  though I am not in a position to comment on the spelling bit. 🙂

    Cheers

    Janette

    #29910
    nefariousorator @nefariousorator

    So I just re-watched ‘The Day of the Doctor’ and noticed something I was hoping to get an answer to.  When the War Doctor arrives in England he mistakes the 11th and 10th Doctors for companions of the Doctor.  However, the 10th Doctor had already met the 5th Doctor in the ‘Time Crash’  mini-episode and since the War Doctor is a later incarnation than the 5th Doctor, shouldn’t he presumably recognize the 10th Doctor when he sees him?  I mean, the 10th Doctor recalls those events with extreme precision so I would imagine the War Doctor would as well.   Was this explained somewhere and I just missed it?

    #29922
    TheEleventhDoctorsWife @theeleventhdoctorswife

    The Day Of The Doctor, The big bad wolf, 3 doctors, and a sad and unforgiving past come together in one.

    ~Always remember rose..~

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