Spoilers (2)

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    bendubz11 @bendubz11


    Clara stuck inside somebody’s head

    (I doubt any new threads started in Sleep, Raven or Heaven, so I’ll leave it at that)

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @puroandson the Suicide Moons are mentioned at the start by the Shadow Architect when talking to the Judoon, just before noticing Colony Sarff. When I first watched the episode I did some research on that as well and found no reference to them in the Whoniverse anywhere so logic must dictate they’re connected to a future storyline.

    I definitely view the Jane Austen thing as similar to Ten marrying Queen Elizabeth, it’s just I only just noticed it and it made me chuckle. As for the glasses I’m sure they are for something, but the further into the series we go the less likely it seems to me that they’re just to monitor Clara, CapDoc’s timeline seems too jumbled for that (might have to resort my working out for that as well, some bits seem out of place still)

    Starla @starla

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Well, your ‘baby archaeology’ sounds very similar to what I’m planning on doing with my year 7’s first term next year. I do love getting the students actively involved in learning. They are far more engaged that way.  What kind of objects did you bury, and how long for? (Okay, I just usurped this board for my own nefarious lesson planning purposes, muhahaha!)</p>

    Anonymous @

    @starla lets go the pub for this?

    Starla @starla

    @puroandson  Hmm, newbie question.. which forum is ‘the pub’? 😊🍻

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @starla I think it’s The Fox Inn, don’t hold me to that though I may be wrong

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @starla  @bendubz11    Yes, the pub is The Fox Inn : the place for discussion of any topic not directly related to Who.

    Anonymous @

    @starla apologies! Yes go to home page and then you’ll see  The Fox Inn -best place for something other than this particular thread.

    🙂 see you over there with some lager.

    Puro (just)

    james @jammiedodger

    sooo in the trailer you seee what seems to be a time lord turning into a statute perhaps the origin story of the weeping angels ?

    Starla @starla


    RorySmith @rorysmith

    Maybe this was mentioned and I missed it but I bet my Sis a candy bar if Clara regenerated and she said “well no because what about Orson Pink?”

    It took a bit to hit me.

    Clara regenerates into Orson!!!!!

    bonkers? Yes.

    Moffat? Oh yes.

    lisa @lisa

    Just  watched the  newly posted trailer.   Sliders and Wraiths down in the depths of the

    matrix oh my!


    Been wondering if that inspiring “cruelty begets cruelty’  -“this is not a game’  speech

    the Doctor made to bring peace between the humans and zygons in the ‘Inversion’ episode

    will   come into play for the finale?  I liked seeing those   political undertones. So maybe this

    is a opportunity to  reinforce that lesson .  Can   the   Doctor remain consistent  about that in

    spite of his anger issues with the TL’s?



    lisa @lisa


    I respect that view but cant share it.   I think any opportunity  to lay out

    the speech’s perspective is good.  I’m concerned that people can

    never hear often enough  that  we need to try to redirect our tantrums. It may have

    a small impact?  Maybe this is an unorthodox way to send a message?  But its

    still a good a message and worth thinking about. Especially because of  what is going

    on now in the news.


    Sorry Mods!!  meant to post on the Fox page   🙁

    Anonymous @


    oh bloomin heck that IS wonderful bonkerising. bahabahahahba.

    Anonymous @

    ooh. A ‘cloister race’. Are they the beginning of Tardis’ ? Because we know Tardis are sentient. Maybe all cloisters can do is ‘ring’.

    I have no idea. None at all. The soldier calls them ‘sliders’ and is clocked!


    So, is there a cloister and TL hybrid?? No, can’t be. Why did Clara say ‘take this one’?(when ‘saving’ Harntell)

    That last question is answered already I believe.

    Mudlark @mudlark

    @puroandson  I got the impression that the Cloister in this case has some connection with the Matrix.  The soldier is sent down into the Matrix to find out why the cloister bell(s) are ringing and reports that the ‘sliders’ – um, sorry, wraiths are active, and we see what look like the moving shadow of a Time Lord in full regalia. Subsequently they are referred to as ‘Cloister wraiths’, apparently dangerous and not to be approached.

    My guess is that the wraiths have some connection with the minds/personalities of dead Time Lords which are stored in the Matrix along with their accumulated knowledge (Ref. Trial of a Time Lord, I think).

    Perhaps the Cloister in the Tardis represents some kind of remote extension of the Matrix ???

    RorySmith @rorysmith

    I keep picturing the lava things from Journey to the Center; those were essentially dark echoes of the people that were in the Eye of Harmony’s energy field. This is the representation of  another form of the yin and yang separatation. The Valeyard is the Doctor’s but in a different sense. I think Missy had him stored in the matrix until she could catch up to Dr12. Looking back at old episodes, it fits quite well. Dr6 had a good deal to do with that. A voice cameo would be sweet.


    jphamlore @jphamlore

    I could never figure out why the Time Lords would want Ashildr or how she would get to Gallifrey considering what an arduous journey it took for the Doctor to return home.  Until now.

    What if Ashildr’s physical body could somehow be replicated by the Time Lords into many more immortal self-repairing human bodies.  What if these bodies were somehow more resistant than normal human ones, or possibly even Time Lord ones, to the time vortex, in particular, to the time winds from the Fourth Doctor serial Warriors Gate.  Then this would be a way for the Time Lords to leave their dimension and travel wherever they would like.  But it would come at a terrible price:  They would be reduced to the memory capacity of a mere human like Ashildr is.  Their lives would become for the most part literally stories they wrote themselves, and who knows how accurate such stories are.  Such a civilization could easily be imagined to become a group of monsters devastating the cosmos, its members without the capacity to accumulate true wisdom through their long lives.  It could be a threat worthy of the Doctor being willing to pay any price to prevent.

    Anonymous @

    dear @mudlark

    Thankyou  Mudlark. Mum and I got both mixed up there!! We thought the man said “cloister race”

    not “wraiths”. I don’t know what a wraith is. I must Google it 🙂


    Son of Puro

    Anonymous @

    @arbutus @tardigrade

    Could we conclude that the ‘cloister wars’ are now connected to the conversation @tardigrade mentioned on the HS thread and which things are in the new teaser above?

    Also, @arbutus perhaps it is the Doctor who is Heaven Sent to the TLs who fear “they are in grave danger” due to the sounds the Cloister wraiths are making. They be ringing bells!

    This reminds me of a throwaway line of Rose’s when she said back in Ten’s time: “we are in grave danger” (possibly near or around Queen Victoria) using as much aristocratic fussiness in pronunciation she could muster.

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Tardigrade just gave me a thought. What if we’re wrong about this series being about the Time War? What if what we’re about to witness is the Cloister War that Missy mentions in Apprentice?

    Starla @starla

    I assume the time lord figure we see in the previous trailer, whose face flickers in and out of view, is a cloister wraith. Makes sense.  This time lord version of a wraith then fits with @mudlark ‘s view that these wraiths are time lord personalities  (‘souls’ if you will) uploaded to the matrix. It seems less ‘spirit’ like, and more like a file or saved data entry.

    Frobisher @frobisher

    So, do we think that there could be versions of Doctors 1-11 + War “sliding” about as wraiths? I did see someone (forgotten who, sorry) mention that the wraith shown flickering in the trailer looked a bit like 10. Will the Doctor come face to face with the ghosts of his previous selves?

    Mudlark @mudlark


    So, do we think that there could be versions of Doctors 1-11 + War “sliding” about as wraiths?

    I very much doubt it.  The minds stored in the Matrix are, if my memory is correct, supposed to be those of dead Time Lords – i.e, those who had run out of their allotted number of regenerations and were no longer incarnate – not earlier incarnations of those who had regenerated but were still living.

    @starla  @puroandson

    The most likely explanation for the wraiths seems to be that they are ghostly manifestations of the dead Time Lords, visible as moving shadows or silhouettes or as more solid-seeming apparitions such as the one Starla pointed out. There need not be anything supernatural about them, since they could be images and holograms of some kind projected by the Matrix.  It suggests that the Matrix is not just a passive resource to be consulted at need, and that the minds within it can act independently to draw the Time Lords’ attention to some particular threat or danger. The appearance of the wraiths perhaps indicates indicate a level of threat even greater than that signalled by the ringing of the Cloister bells.

    I have been thinking this morning about the seeming connection between the Matrix and the Cloister.  The word cloister derives from the Latin claustrum, meaning inclosure, custody, confinement, a boundary, which in turn is linked to the verb claudo, to dam, shut up or enclose, to render inaccessible.

    It would seem that the wraiths are dangerous in some way, since the soldier was warned not to approach them, so it would make sense that measures have been taken to pen them up or inhibit them within the larger context of the Matrix, and my guess is that this is what the Cloister represents here.  At the very least one can understand why living Time Lords might not welcome constant intervention and meddling by stroppy deceased ancestors.

    Frobisher @frobisher


    Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying. I wasn’t sure what the nature of the wraiths was, as I’m a relative newbie to regular Who watching. 🙂

    lisa @lisa

    Wtraiths would be to TL’s what  the gooey remains in the Dalek sewers are?

    The Me on Galifrey  may be a future version and also the Presidents wife?

    Cloister wars?   Were they happening simultaneously with the Time wars?


    Mudlark @mudlark


    Wraiths would be to TL’s what the gooey remains in the Dalek sewers are?

    Probably not, since the sentient goo in the sewers on Skaro was composed of the decayed but still living physical remains of Daleks.

    If I have understood the Matrix correctly, it is supposed to be something like an immensely powerful computer into which the minds of dead Time Lords are uploaded, so it doesn’t entail the preservation of living remains.  Within the Matrix these minds may retain their individual identity, perhaps experiencing a kind of afterlife in a realistically simulated virtual world. I was speculating that these stored minds might be capable of manifesting themselves in the real world, using some method of projection.

    If the wraiths have any physical solidity it would probably be as hard light holograms or equivalent, but the fact that they are referred to as wraiths suggests that they are insubstantial.


    Starla @starla

    So… uploaded minds, simulated world. Library anyone? There are parallels for sure.

    On an unrelated note, I just recalled that we haven’t found out any more about the ‘minister of war’ ‘war minister’ (I forget the exact title, correct me if I’m wrong) mentioned in Flood. At the time there were suggestions of Ashildr, I doubt there will be resolution this episode. Perhaps it’s a future theme.

    lisa @lisa


    I take your point.     But to the extent that they might both be the remains of a previous state

    was  what I was thinking too?  The Dalek goo seemed to still have unusual Dalek instincts

    and I am looking forward to seeing  these Wraiths !




    tardigrade @tardigrade

    Missy refers to being friends with the Doctor since the time of the Cloister Wars. Since they’ve known each other since childhood, does that mean the Cloister Wars were back in the time of the First Doctor? If so, and those events are playing out, then that’s the time Twelve has arrived at. In one trailer, the president asks “Where has he gone?”. Is it possible they mean One after he’s recently run off? Twelve then sending word he’s come back “the long way around” makes sense. One has run off because he’s recognised he was the Hybrid in the prophecy and was putting distance between himself and Gallifrey, fearful of the prophecy playing out if he remains there.

    A possible resolution to the Clara arc has occurred to me…

    Clara might somehow have been uploaded  to the matrix on her death – perhaps the purpose of a confession dial is to transport the consciousness of a dead TL to the matrix and the Dial was really for her, or was repurposed for her when the Doctor realised she was doomed. So he sought to save her similarly to what he did for River. Ashildr brought the dial with Clara inside to Gallifrey and Clara entered the matrix, possibly long before the Doctor even existed.

    The tardis cloister bell also rings in time of trouble, and the tardis is known to have a consciousness. Is it possible that consciousness is a wraith? Clara’s consciousness inhabits a tardis – the one that a Claricle points One towards. And it turns out that Clara has been travelling with the Doctor all along, saving him and taking him to where he needed to be.


    jphamlore @jphamlore

    @tardigrade: The Doctor seemed to know something about quantum shades, and quantum shades seem to want to capture souls for some person.  Also, quantum shades are said to be able to pursue a victim anywhere in space and time.  I wonder if a quantum shade can cross dimensions.

    I therefore hypothesize if some version of the Clara who was killed makes it to Gallifrey, it would be by way of the quantum shade that killed her.

    lisa @lisa



    Why were you thinking that about Cloister wars and the 1st Doctor?  I’m not

    a before gap expert but I think perhaps not?    But it is interesting that Missy

    might have been implying a new status in her relationship with the Doctor

    since the Cloister wars.  The Wraiths sound like they are a ‘special ops’  sort

    of force to protect the TL’s?   Also,   I like the idea of either a Claricle as part of the

    Tardis  or a Wraith  version helping the Doctor and taking him where he needs to go.

    Mudlark @mudlark


    I wonder if a quantum shade can cross dimensions.

    Quantum entanglement?

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Have been reading through the comments, and am surprised by the assumption in many posts that Ashildr is on Gallifrey. If you look at her very brief appearance in the Next Time trailer, she seems to be wearing modern clothes and sitting in a modern leather chair. Not Gallifrey. I surmise that this is at the end of the episode–post Gallifrey and back on Earth. And I think we will be seeing Maisie Williams again. A lot.

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    Why were you thinking that about Cloister wars and the 1st Doctor?

    It wasn’t anything to do with pre-gap knowledge- wouldn’t know much about the 1st Doctor anyway. It’s because:
    1. It appears that the reason that the Doctor left Gallifrey in the first place is going to be resolved, so a story set in that era makes sense.
    2. The quote “Where has he gone?” might refer to the 1st Doctor’s recent departure.
    3. It’s been established that the Doctor and Master were childhood friends, so if Missy’s statement (“Since forever. Since the Cloister Wars…”) is to be taken literally (dangerous!) then that may also place the Cloister Wars in that era
    4. There’s an old president (pre-resurrection Rassilon?) in the trailer
    5. And to support my guess that Clara might end up as the consciousness of the tardis (so an assumption to support a shaky hypothesis, for what that’s worth 🙂

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    I therefore hypothesize if some version of the Clara who was killed makes it to Gallifrey, it would be by way of the quantum shade that killed her.

    Interesting, since that would imply that the Doctor may suspect she’s gone there and been given a reason to return to Gallifrey. He does say “You’d still be gone”, not “dead” when addressing Clara in his internal dialogues.


    Have been reading through the comments, and am surprised by the assumption in many posts that Ashildr is on Gallifrey. If you look at her very brief appearance in the Next Time trailer, she seems to be wearing modern clothes and sitting in a modern leather chair. Not Gallifrey. I surmise that this is at the end of the episode–post Gallifrey and back on Earth. And I think we will be seeing Maisie Williams again. A lot.

    It’s possible that she’ll be left as a loose end or something that’s addressed in the Xmas episode. If not, then putting her on Gallifrey would seem to be the most likely way to resolve her story arc. There are a number of references that might refer to or involve her (me/Me, President’s wife, little girl, possible involvement in the hybrid), and she had vowed to follow the Doctor around and has the longevity to do it. There are a number of ways her character could be used, so it’s tempting to incorporate her in your preferred bonkers theory (or mutually exclusive theories 🙂 ). But the way the character has been set up, she could also be intended as an ongoing recurring character as you suggest.

    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave


    My thoughts are about Ashildr are based on the way she has been used thus far. I think the Doctor feels guilt over what happended in The Girl Who Died. On the other hand, there would be no love lost between them as a result of her role in Face the Raven. I just have this feeling that Ashildr, as a recurring character, will act as a sort of conscience, or even mentor, to this Doctor.

    I don’t think she will appear in the Christmas episode, because she is intended (according to the Blenkinsop theory) for serious episodes. And I think she has been introduced by Moffat for the precise reason that she is part of the new hybrid arc/dimension to the Doctor.

    Whether he is the hybrid or has created the hybrid, I have no idea, but he created another hybrid–Ashildr–and so I think she will attend this Doctor in series 10 as his conscience/mentor as long as that hybrid theme remains.

    Anonymous @

    Again, reading the comments -a bit like “no, me”,  “no it’s this”



    totally agree re: Ashildr. Your Blenksinop theory holds intact

    @mudlark thankyou Miss Mudlark (this is son typing now as Mum is having a rest). She wanted to say a specific thanks to all the definitions of cloister you wrote. Of course: people being cloistered. I should have known that myself. Also, thank you for telling about the wraiths. I didn’t know what they were and I didn’t know there was a history in old who about them either.

    @frobisher I know hardly anything about old who -I’ve tried though. Tried and failed.


    Are you suggesting that this is the Doctor going waaay back in time? That he will have twelve’s face but actually be the 1st doctor and will leave Gallifrey and steal a tardis? Whoa. Double whoa. I kind of hope not because then the 1st doctor’s stories are sort of ignored. In a way. No?


    tardigrade @tardigrade


    Are you suggesting that this is the Doctor going waaay back in time? That he will have twelve’s face but actually be the 1st doctor and will leave Gallifrey and steal a tardis? Whoa. Double whoa. I kind of hope not because then the 1st doctor’s stories are sort of ignored. In a way. No?

    Not exactly- the Doctor’s existing timeline would be intact- I imagine there would be serious fan backlash if his history was significantly retconned. No I’m thinking that the 1st Doctor has departed for Earth before CapDoc arrives and is off doing his thing as events play out. He returns a long time later in his own timeline having regenerated to CapDoc, but not much later in the Gallifrey timeline- he’s gone “the long way around”. Potentially could be earlier and the Doctor plays a part in his own creation in a bootstrap paradox, but he wouldn’t actually become the 1st Doctor. More likely I think Ashildr played a role in the Doctor’s creation and completes a bootstrap paradox that way.

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    I was just doing my standard Friday night look at the cast list for tomorrow’s episode and I’ve noticed something. according to Wikipedia (not always the most reliable I know), Maisie Williams character is TBA. Not Ashildr or Me. I’m wondering whether we may be about to find out just how important a character she is to The Doctor.

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    The Wikipedia reference for Maisie Williams’ appearance is the “Next Time” trailer, so I don’t think there’s any evidence that the Wikipedia writer has any information outside that.

    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @tardigrade ah yes I see, as I said I wasn’t certain that it meant anything, but it definitely had piqued my interest

    Anonymous @


    This is son of Puro replying: thankyou for replying to my question. I wasn’t sure what you meant but I have a much clearer idea now. I can see that what you’re writing is making a lot of sense. Could that be that the ‘now’ doctor is going back in time (without knowing it) to the departure of the 1st doctor which is why mum said “they are saying where is the Doctor and might be referring to the 1st doctor who has -as we know it -vanished from Gallifrey frightened of something and stolen a tardis but with the claricle’s help” That is (I hope) what mum said to me and I think wrote it out right. I hope!!

    So you have made my mum really interested in that theory too. That is before the time war and around the time the doctor vanished from Gallifrey the first time? Which means it’s before the Master even got the drums inside his head maybe??  Even before the TLs have been cup off souped?

    I expect then that when they meet him they’ll say “oh you’ve regenerated haven’t you” in other words youre not one or harnell (spelling?) .

    Do you kind of agree with that? Sorry if Im slow on the uptake (my uncle says that to me a bit)

    Thankyou for reading.

    Just son of Puro 🙂

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    We don’t see Doctor who until the next night in Brisbane its not shown on Saturday night and also on Sunday its shown at early time of 7.30 because its family viewing.

    I noticed last week that the episode was available on iview (ABC catchup service) at 8am Sunday- that’s AEDT, so that would make it 7am in Brisbane, which by my calculations makes it half an hour after it starts in the UK. So assuming it’s the same this week, if you were so inclined you could skip to the end and see that before it airs in the UK :-). So I’ll be watching it as soon as it’s available.

    iview is geoblocked, so you need to be in Oz for anyone else reading.

    tardigrade @tardigrade


    That is before the time war and around the time the doctor vanished from Gallifrey the first time? Which means it’s before the Master even got the drums inside his head maybe?? Even before the TLs have been cup off souped?

    The Doctor and Master were similar ages and the Master got the drums when exposed to the Untempered Schism as a child. The Doctor was hardly a spring chicken when he left Gallifrey, so later than that, but well before the Time War. It occurs to me that maybe the Doctor left in part because he was getting old enough that he was fearful of finding himself regenerating on Gallifrey and becoming the hybrid of prophecy.
    “Cup off souped” ?? May be my turn to be slow on the uptake.

    I expect then that when they meet him they’ll say “oh you’ve regenerated haven’t you” in other words youre not one or harnell (spelling?)

    Yes- might not be the face they were expecting (Hartnell), but you’d have to assume they’re used to time lords changing appearance from time to time, even if they didn’t expect he’d gone through so many in the interim.

    Starla @starla

    @tardigrade @puroandson
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>I watch on iview every sunday morning, approx 7am. I have no patience.</p>

    Starla @starla

    @puroandson @tardigrade

    Cuppa soup or cup of soup… 11 suggested when they trapped gallifrey in the statis cube (forgetting terminology, you know what i mean) that it would be like a cuppa soup. Just add water.

    tardigrade @tardigrade

    I just had another random thought- so it seems there’s still time for some “out there” theories…

    The term “suicide moon” has been mentioned, by the shadow proclamation. I was thinking- if dead time lords usually enter the matrix, perhaps those who died by suicide are prevented from entering the matrix, for reasons of stability- I can’t imagine the mentally unstable would be a good addition. They might be shunted off to a moon somewhere instead, a “suicide moon”. If the matrix is TL heaven, then the suicide moon is hell.

    Now the Doctor has been persuaded in the dial to commit suicide hundreds of billions of times. If a wraith is created each time, someone may have built a massive army of hell, billions upon billions of wraiths all hell bent on revenge. You could understand why the wraiths in the matrix are panicking.

    Starla @starla

    Now that’s some Grade A bonkerizing! To add to @tardigrade ‘s theory, something as devious as forcing the Doctor into a position where he must suicide billions of times, thereby creating many billions of cloister wraiths – hellbent and angry – in fact, a veritable army of wraiths, could only be concocted by Missy. After all, wasn’t that her motive in season 8, to make an army for the Doctor?

    Meanwhile, I keep leaving Clara out of my theories, as I am really not sure where she will fit in. I would love resolution to the Orson Pink situation , but I can accept if it was a story thread that needed to be let go. I also think there is potential for her to be part of the hybrid reveal, but not sure how yet.

    Anonymous @

    @starla @tardigrade

    Just Puro here -yes, it can get confusing when the 14 year old is writing and forgetting (clearly) the difference between “off” and ‘of’ but yes, he understands cup a soup -we have this here too. And he loved the concept back in the 50th but hasn’t seen it since….aaand he’ll not know the word ‘interim’ – he should but I shall explain that. Thank you.

    Generally I sleep in very late for the very obvious reasons so I like to wait till the evening for a watch around with the family.  I didn’t do that last week -needed to see it first. As to tomorrow, we’ll see. I might, I might not. 🙂

    G’night all: by the time I awake you’ll have ‘the knowledge’.

    I hope it’s a good one.


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