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5 December 2015 at 11:27 #48682
Yes- it would have to be Missy. She had access to the confession dial and could have managed to take a peek, discovered the Doctor’s secret (as the first Doctor he recognised the ongoing army as his future self somehow and fled Gallifrey hoping to avoid it happening) and concocted a plan to wreak revenge on the time lords for the drum business and anything else, real or imagined, that they’ve done to her. Plus she gets to torture the Doctor in the process. If anyone can embrace revenge, it’s her!
Assuming a wraith army is bearing down on Gallifrey, driven by grief over Clara, possibly the only thing that is going to stop them would be Clara herself. So she has to put in an appearance of some sort.5 December 2015 at 12:57 #48683Mudlark @mudlark
As far as I am aware the Cloister Wraiths have never been mentioned before. although my memory of BG Who is patchy, to say the least, since there are a great many episodes, even of those surviving, which I haven’t watched since they were first shown. All I have written is of course still speculation, arrived at by been adding two and two, and for all I know making the answer five 🙂 Only seven hours to go now before we find out here in the UK, and I’m feeling quite excited. The episode will be hard put to equal, let alone top last week’s episode, but the omens look promising.
As for the cloister thing, I supposed most people would think first of its meaning as the private, inner part of a monastery or nunnery, so I just wanted to show how the word might be applicable in a wider context, and in this context in particular.
Son of Puro. I sympathise with your not being able to get into old Who. I used to watch it at the time because it was entertaining and imaginative and sometimes provided food for thought. The often crude effects and relatively slow pacing of a lot of it didn’t bother me at the time, because that was fairly typical of the BBC, which didn’t have big budgets to play with. When I watch episodes now, though, I tend to get impatient with the slower pace and the amount of ‘padding’, even though some of the stories are very good in themselves. People expect much higher production values these days, and young people in particular have, I think, become a lot more sophisticated about these things.5 December 2015 at 22:37 #48736Anonymous @
Oh yes, you are right about the sophisticated thing but you know when I watched Buffy there was a lot of exciting action missing but in the end, it was the stories which mattered. Until I watched buffy I never knew that -I have been spoilt for choice since watching Buffy. Even Fringe, which I’ve started watching is something Mum and I keep saying about: “this is pretty good. Yes, it’s good isn’t it?”
As if we have to convince ourselves. I loved Tom Baker’s years. And some of Davison (with a ‘d’ or not?) and I also liked some of the first Hartnell’s ones but very few really. I found the really slow action scenes just so slow with nothing happening and the actors (xtras) stand around looking confused. But still (as mum writes a lot) where would we be without Hartnell?
You will have seen it by now. We are looking forward to your review of the episode. Mum will probably watch it now. I wish I could but I have to go out and sing hymns -and carols (carols are OK)
Rightio -we say that in Oz.
Thankyou for reading.
Love, son of Puro5 December 2015 at 23:49 #48748Starla @starla
So so good. Love love love it!
Wasn’t the President’s wife he stole, it was his daughter… Susan?
Just dawned on me… Orson Pink problem solved. Clara still time traveling. Potential there?6 December 2015 at 02:27 #48769
@craig – this thread is bumping up against the limit. Seems an apposite time for a spin-off.6 December 2015 at 05:10 #48778bendubz11 @bendubz11
Orson Pink problem solved. Clara still time traveling. Potential there?
Indeed, and what’s to say she doesn’t bump into a certain lovable villain on her adventures?6 December 2015 at 18:23 #48840xemoboix @xemoboix
Why does it seem to me Moffat is pushing the idea of of a female Doctor? First, he changes the Master into Missy and then the General into a woman by having the Doctor shoot him and forcing a regeneration. This in itself is a bad enough breach in the Doctor’s personality, but back to my previous point, it almost seems as if Moffat is trying to prepare fans for after Capaldi leaves. I for one would be disappointed if the next Doctor is a woman.6 December 2015 at 18:48 #48847Craig @craigEmperor
I for one
Okay. That’s one. Anyone else out of the millions who watch it?6 December 2015 at 18:50 #48848Craig @craigEmperor
@pedant Got about 30 more posts to go, but thanks for raising. I like to play close to the edge (or go over it).6 December 2015 at 19:11 #48854JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
@xemoboix — he’s just done more than that. He’s pretty much created a female Doctor because that’s what Clara is in all but name now. The Governess maybe? As for the next bona fide regeneration of the Doctor being female. Bring it on, I say.6 December 2015 at 19:23 #48857bendubz11 @bendubz11
@jimthefish He’s pretty much created a female Doctor because that’s what Clara is in all but name now. The Governess maybe?
I think something more like The Nanny is more appropriate considering Bells of Saint John/The Snowmen. After all, she’s probably travelling time and space, taking care of people.7 December 2015 at 01:33 #48896
Why does it seem to me Moffat is pushing the idea of of a female Doctor? First, he changes the Master into Missy and then the General into a woman by having the Doctor shoot him and forcing a regeneration. This in itself is a bad enough breach in the Doctor’s personality, but back to my previous point, it almost seems as if Moffat is trying to prepare fans for after Capaldi leaves. I for one would be disappointed if the next Doctor is a woman.
I’m open to the next Doctor being a woman (assuming of course a suitable actor)- might give some room for different stories and mix things up, which is a good thing. Having said that, the more secondary female characters that are introduced, the less likely I think that the Doctor will be cast as female.
I didn’t care for the Doctor shooting the general, without really much necessity- forcing a regeneration is not a minor thing and seemed significantly out of character for the Doctor. Really just seemed to be thrown in to allow the gender change.7 December 2015 at 02:41 #48909Anonymous @
Hello there Puro there -I see Son was on the other boards chatting merrily.
Some good points raised here though. I would think that the War Doctor made his little appearance -escaped out of the genie bottle as it were? 🙂
I think his shooting of the general knowing he had 3 regens left (whilst out of character) was essential. What it did was show how far the Doctor was prepared to save his Clara (“my Clara my Clara”) .
It also then showed Clara saving the Doctor, yet again. This time from himself -not from all the monsters which the Doctor must face with the claricle’s help – like in Silence in the Library. @bluesqueakpip has a very good argument about that on the Hell Bent thread if you’d like a read. Once Clara sat the Doctor down and said “I don’t believe you did this” he was able to re-set himself. I feel that she saved him one last time in the Tardis with her comment “Run you clever boy and be a Doctor,” which, in light of his behaviour on Gallifrey (a very angry man -and perhaps to be expected) was a necessary and final piece of advice.
We are never very far from the opposite of ourselves and must be reminded of who we have vowed to be. The Doctor vowed never to be cruel and yet he was: that episode reminded us of the War Doctor and his passion, his overwrought qualities. Also he made a mistake, a dreadful one, and by losing Clara – possibly – he is redeemed.
At the same time, he had suffered for the cardinal sin of killing the general -but I view his punishment backwards in time -being in the vessel or container of the Confession Dial. There he atones for that sin. This is an unusual way of looking at it but it bears some thought. Mind you, the Doctor did suggest the general would regenerate and one could compare it to “man-flu” – but that is this Doctor’s particular brand of flippancy and I imagine Eleven wouldn’t be thrilled seeing that 🙂
I agree with your point about the correct actor for the job of Doctor -it really does matter, doesn’t it?
@craig -oh I say bring on a female Doctor too. As long as we have a great actor like Gomez as Missy -what a hoot that was this past two years. And we have as yet to work out “her brilliant idea” in Episode 2.
Kindest, Puro7 December 2015 at 03:00 #48911
oh I say bring on a female Doctor too. As long as we have a great actor like Gomez as Missy -what a hoot that was this past two years.
I think a female Doctor would play really well opposite Gomez as Missy. Missy could really get her b*tch on (her word, not mine!).7 December 2015 at 03:40 #48917
@tardisgrade, (love the name btw that is one of my favourite images) I think the shooting demonstrated just how “out of the character” the Doctor was. He is breaking all of his own rules. He is deeply traumatised and angry. He is not “the Doctor”. When he picks up the velvet coat at the end it signifies that he is healed. He is taking back on the mantle of Doctor and all that goes with the name/title.
Personally I though it about time we saw some powerful women in Gallifrey. I understand that it is a deeply sexist as well as elitist society, which I find rather hard to equate with their great power and supposed “superiority”.
Janette7 December 2015 at 03:41 #48918
@tardigrade. Sorry for that, especially after commenting upon your name.
Janette7 December 2015 at 04:00 #48920Anonymous @
Oh that’s awesome ! I love it. And in the episode, it brought our little house down!
@janetteb hello to you. Hope all is better in terms of fires in SA -though better would hardly be the word. These people have years of re-building to do and some may never be able to do it.
Indeed: I loved your explanation above. He is traumatised (and who wouldn’t be) and they took him away from Clara and he couldn’t even mourn her loss. Then he was determined to do anything to keep her safe within his bounds of care. But those bonds had to be torn for them to grow apart correctly: they were too close and as a consequence of her vainglory (yes, I stole said concept from another poster) she lost her life.
Why could she not be offered a second chance? Wouldn’t’ anyone jump at that? Usually it’s the people left behind who want that chance. I think young Clara said “Whatever you are going to say, don’t. I know it. We are always running out of time”.
How true. And apt that you pointed out both the sonic and the jacket -this was his symbol -no more war-y doctor antics, no more banter in the face of sorrow, just the idiot back in his box. Travelling with a companion – not a part-hybrid, so close that together they could well kill the other. And it happened -for her, once and still to come. For him, billions of times.
It’s a beautiful metaphor for relationships, the interactions we share with others, the concept of life and death, the earth and how it is abused and used and so on. So many threads we can unpick from this and see the episode in a new light each and every day.
Kindest, Just Puro7 December 2015 at 04:07 #48922
I think the shooting demonstrated just how “out of the character” the Doctor was. He is breaking all of his own rules. He is deeply traumatised and angry. He is not “the Doctor”. When he picks up the velvet coat at the end it signifies that he is healed. He is taking back on the mantle of Doctor and all that goes with the name/title.
Yes- I think you’re right that’s how it’s meant to play out. But the way it’s set up, it isn’t an act of desperation, it’s a calculated act, and not sold for me as necessary. How was the unarmed general going to stop him that the other few TLs in the room weren’t (presumably by calling security for help)? If he’s not prepared to line them all up, ask their regeneration number and shoot each in the chest in turn, then shooting just the general doesn’t achieve anything. Not that I’m advocating for that revised scene, because that would be really ugly.
And np on the handle- I can understand in context how it’s hard to type “tardi” and not add an “s” 🙂7 December 2015 at 04:10 #48923
You posted while I was between reading and replying. Sorry for the repetition. You said what I was trying to say. That will teach me not to refresh the page more often.
Janette8 December 2015 at 01:56 #49033
@tardigrade I didn’t care for the Doctor shooting the general, without really much necessity- forcing a regeneration is not a minor thing and seemed significantly out of character for the Doctor. Really just seemed to be thrown in to allow the gender change.
I thought the shooting was a way to show that yes, the Doctor really was prepared to commit serious mayhem on Gallifrey (“I’m just getting started”). It was a shock, though. Fortunately safeguarding Clara came first, and she got him re-focused. More about that, maybe, after re-watch.
@janetteb the shooting demonstrated just how “out of the character” the Doctor was. He is breaking all of his own rules. He is deeply traumatised and angry. He is not “the Doctor”. When he picks up the velvet coat at the end it signifies that he is healed. He is taking back on the mantle of Doctor and all that goes with the name/title.
Yes — and that includes what he’s learned from traveling with Clara about sticking with his own rules, whether he actually remembers Clara (in one way or another) or not. But I’m still having a nitpicky problem with that burgundy coat that seems to travel a bit on its own, at least in Hell Bent.
Writing a Doctor Who script to fit a season arc must be a bit like *being* the Doctor — all that data amassed from all the previous seasons, and the job is to manage to keep all of it accessible while still picking out the signal — the bits that enhance the story you’re working on and secure it to the whole business — from the general noise. And what’s signal and what’s noise changes with the shape of each season’s arcs.
Hmm. I picture the Doctor (some time in S10, perhaps) looking for something in the Tardis console and coming upon those cue cards . . .8 December 2015 at 02:27 #49036lisa @lisa
This is about writing the script for Face the Raven and the surprise of Clara’s end
For all the writers on the forum8 December 2015 at 03:26 #49042
Personally I though it about time we saw some powerful women in Gallifrey. I understand that it is a deeply sexist as well as elitist society, which I find rather hard to equate with their great power and supposed “superiority”.
Definitely- I have a feeling the newly regenerated general will be president when we next see the TL’s. It’s a bit hard to see how sexism could persist in a society where anyone could find themselves changing gender. A misogynist who regenerated as a woman would be in for a rude awakening. Can’t say I’m comfortable about the apparent class structure on Gallifrey either- something the Doctor could perhaps do something about. Those outside the citadel were described as “no-one who matters” by Rassilon. Of course Rassilon’s list of people who do matter might well consist of only his own name.8 December 2015 at 19:58 #4908815 December 2015 at 06:22 #49436gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar
Due to the latest season of Doctor Who, I have fallen behind on my Torchwood news. I’m glad to say that after the return of Jack in “The Conspiracy”, Ianto returning in “Fall To Earth” and Qwen and Rhys coming back in “Forgotten Lives”, we see the return of Yvonne Hartman from the Doctor Who episode “Amy of Ghosts”. The head of Torchwood One returns in her audio play “Rule One”. A great radio play with a strong story in my mind.15 December 2015 at 06:52 #49438
@tardigrade (Shooting the General) Yes- I think you’re right that’s how it’s meant to play out. But the way it’s set up, it isn’t an act of desperation, it’s a calculated act, and not sold for me as necessary.
That’s the point, IMO: the Doctor didn’t *need* to kill him, although I think what he was calculating was how far the General would go to enforce what he saw as his military duty to take charge of Clara and send her back to the Raven, and how quick the soldiers would be to continue that enforcement if the General died (and regenerated); not very, as it turned out, so he and Clara could run out of there together. The “normal” Doctor would have talked it over; the “hybrid”, full of pent up fury and outrage, doesn’t think twice about it, a la WarDoc. That’s evidence for why he and Clara have to part company — so he won’t be moved by fear and anger about what’s happening to her, fall into that kind of icy, calculated violence any more.15 December 2015 at 07:27 #49439
That’s the point, IMO: the Doctor didn’t *need* to kill him, although I think what he was calculating was how far the General would go to enforce what he saw as his military duty to take charge of Clara and send her back to the Raven, and how quick the soldiers would be to continue that enforcement if the General died (and regenerated); not very, as it turned out
If he was truly calculating, then the Doctor would have used one of the neural blocks available in that room to cause all the TLs to black out and wipe the last half hour from their memories. He could then have strolled out, requested a tardis using his authority as president, and be long gone before anyone knew anything was up. Instead he shoots the General, meaning undoubtedly one of the others in the room would be onto the military in around three seconds of him leaving the room. It’s not just the cold-bloodedness of it that bothers me- it’s also the lack of foresight it shows.
Also, we’ve seen the regeneration process used as a weapon (Time of the Doctor), so I’m not sure that by shooting the general he isn’t potentially giving him a weapon.
Seemed more like Missy than the Doctor in some ways though- she’d ask the general’s regeneration number for the same reason Rassilon did of the Doctor- so she’d know how many times she’d need to shoot to finish the job. There’s true calculation at work 🙂15 December 2015 at 08:52 #49440
@tardigrade If he was truly calculating, then the Doctor would have used one of the neural blocks available in that room to cause all the TLs to black out and wipe the last half hour from their memories. He could then have strolled out,
Well, he could have; but his calculations were over-hasty and heavily tainted by roiling emotions, so what he *did* choose to do works for me. That’s not to say that there weren’t other alternatives at hand — if he’d cared to consider them. After those 4 + billion years, I’d say he was primed to kill somebody; pity it wasn’t Rassilon, but the bad choice just confirms the perilousness to all and sundry of this man loaded up and let loose as a loose canon.
Er. Cannon, damn it. Though a “loose canon” is one of the more charming and inviting aspects of DW, if only to rattle the cages of the “tight canon” crowd.
Whoo. Its late. Can you tell?!
ichi15 December 2015 at 10:49 #49441Mersey @mersey
Thank you for sharing that piece. I’ve just spotted it. Every piece of news about the process of writing DW is extremely interesting.19 December 2015 at 12:27 #49521blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
This is a rather monumental spoiler for the Christmas special:
Seriously, only read it if you are truly prepared to be spoiled.
In fact, given that the London premiere has already happened, if you want to watch the special unspoiled it might be a good idea to avoid all newspapers and the internet until then.20 December 2015 at 06:47 #49542jphamlore @jphamlore
@tardigrade: As I have written elsewhere, as a fan of the Fourth Doctor serial The Invasion of Time, I found it perfectly within the Doctor’s character to shoot the General and force a regeneration. The Fourth Doctor was willing to appear to be a traitor to Gallifrey, assuming the Presidency apparently to destroy the transduction barrier to allow in the Vardans, only to double-cross the Vardans trapping them in a time loop. And when the Sontarans took advantage of the barriers being down, the Fourth Doctor assembled a forbidden weapon that could erase the Sontaran leader from existence. And then the Doctor even lost some of his memories following that adventure. To me it was as if Moffat brought back old good times.
The Doctor in subsequent trips to Gallifrey found out the Time Lord leadership was worthless. Even his mentor Borusa betrayed everyone seeking immortality in The Five Doctors. I think the Doctor thought no, this time it must be different. That is why he ordered the exile of Rassilon and then followed it up telling the General that the High Council should also go into exile on the next shuttle out. But that still wasn’t enough. Because the likely successor to at least administer the transition to a new government, the General, was an old man. That just would not do.
So now I think the Doctor shot the General both to deliberately tick off the General, because the last thing the Doctor wants is his version of Davros’s Nyder, and to make the General regenerate to be a younger, perhaps far different person. Because that’s what Gallifrey needs at the moment, fresher blood.
The scene this season I still cannot accept is the Doctor initially running away from kid Davros on Skaro. How could the Doctor not reason that at the very least, leaving kid Davros alone in a hand-mine field with the Doctor’s sonic screwdriver might have exactly been the catalyst for turning Davros into the monstrous genius he would eventually become. That’s basically Time Travel 101. How many times has the Doctor seen that ends justifies the means evil with respect to time travel merely creates the terrible outcome one is trying to avoid. Or what if Davros happened to be as common a name on Skaro as Smith in certain regions of this world?20 December 2015 at 18:45 #49544lisa @lisa
A thought about the General. I’m feeling that regenerations never fundamentally
changes the people that are having the regeneration and they don’t always go
younger. The Doctor certainly hasn’t. I don’t think you an predict that. However,
as with Missy I think there are some gender quirks and also some new preferences
and tastes. So I can agree to an extent that we may have a fresh take on the General
but as to how he/she becomes a new sort of a General is not clear to me. How the basic
regime on Galifrey might change now that Rassilon and his council are expelled
has been given some new wiggle room for this General and should probably make another
very interesting episode though.
“The left Hand of Darkness” by LaGuin is a very good read young son ! 🙂27 December 2015 at 06:52 #49722jphamlore @jphamlore
Here’s my bonkers theory for season 10, perhaps Moffat’s swan song. We are going to see an evil Doctor, but not the Valeyard, because Moffat redoes as much as he can from the classical series, to paraphrase, not as history repeating, but sometimes having it rhyme. And who better to play an evil Doctor than Capaldi himself?
But this evil Doctor I think will not be the Doctor, it will be Rassilon regenerated impersonating the Doctor. I think we fans are going to have some fun seeing things throughout season 10 that are just a bit off, just a bit different, on purpose.
After all, why not get as much mileage out of Capaldi as possible? We have been shown in Heaven Sent it is possible to have an entire episode of Capaldi talking to himself.24 January 2016 at 17:46 #50413
It occurs to me that the mysterious Kettering shoot, noted upthread by @sirclockface is still unexplained….23 February 2016 at 22:07 #51073gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar
Hi guys, more great Torchwood news. Though the first series of radio plays have air there will be a second series of radio plays published by Big Finish. The first audio play, The Victorian Age, will center around Captain Jack. The second play, Zone 10, will be about Tosh, played by Naoko Mori. The third play, Ghost Mission, will star Tom Price as Andy Davidson while the fourth play title Moving Target will star Indira Varma as Suzie. There is no release information about the last two plays but I can’t wait for the new radio dramas. The first one will air in March so keep listening.1 March 2016 at 12:25 #51136nerys @nerys
Not sure if this is considered a “spoiler” since it’s making the rounds in the news:2 March 2016 at 16:57 #51150blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave
Just chipped myself out from under the Canadian ice, where I have been buried for some weeks to find this on the web:
I hasten to add that I was not actually reading the newspaper in question, but saw reference to the story in a rather more reputable corner of the internet.8 March 2016 at 21:02 #51227
So those assuming a new doc with a new showrunner, maybe not so much:9 March 2016 at 03:12 #51244
Not saying “I told you so”. Not saying it.:-)
Well hopefully that will silence the gutter press for a while. Fingers crossed he will decide to stay on.
Janette9 March 2016 at 03:56 #51248
@janetteb Oh yes please — I definitely want more CapDoc! I can’t imagine what directions he’ll be looking in for his work after this show . . . who’s knowledgeable enough here to supply some info on where recent Doctors have gone for their post DW careers? I know a little, not much . . . Eccleston’s in a very quirky and provocative series resuming on US TV this spring, “The Leftovers”, but that’s all I know. Haven’t kept track of Tennant, as I don’t find him a interesting or attractive actor — taste, that’s all. Smith — superhero stuff? What about BG Docs? I gather Tom Baker had trouble getting work after his extended stint as the Doctor (which I loved, although I remember feeling that it was getting a bit stale later on in his day).
But why expect any sort of patterns to this — chance and timing are such potent and unpredictable factors in the lives of performers, aren’t they, partly because it takes so many elements and people to come together just right for any project to come to fruition . . .10 March 2016 at 05:41 #51270Anonymous @
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