31 October 2017 at 13:24 #6230231 October 2017 at 16:24 #62303
@thane15 I understand what you’re saying that a relative lack of characters could be to the benefit of Twelve’s finale, but as @bluesqueakpip pointed out at least “Time of the Doctor” worked in a bunch of villain cameos, plus the Time Lords just offscreen. 😉 And the story had a grand scale, with some huge time jumps and significant plot developments, culminating in the Doctor getting a new lease on life/lives and making short work of the Daleks. It wasn’t huge the way “The End of Time” was, granted.
“Twice Upon a Time” doesn’t seem to have much going for it plotwise. Time standing still? That’s no big whoop for a single Doctor much less two. Hardly Twelve’s “darkest frozen moment”. And not giving any hints to the villain of the story suggests to me that either the BBC doesn’t find whoever it is exciting enough to hype (“Oh, Cybermen again?”), given their tendency to give away big spoilers of late, or there isn’t an antagonist at all and time freezing is more of a “clerical error”, as Twelve might put it. 😀
That said a minimalist story might be what’s needed to solve the key dilemma of Twelve not wanting to regenerate. Looking at things from his perspective, he’s got no reason to change; he’s happy to be who he is, a good man, and he went through a lot to get to that point. If he dies for good, well, at least it’s on his own terms. As of the end of “The Doctor Falls” he has no companions (and believed his most recent one to have died a Cyberman), no best frienemy, no confidante (this would be a great excuse to bring back someone like Ohila — to mend the fences), no wife. He scored a moral victory and took down a troop of Cybermen, but as we see in the real world, that only goes so far to keep up one’s spirits. It’s tough to keep fighting a good fight sometimes. 😉 Maybe that will be plot enough. If they could get “Heaven Sent” to work…
I am looking forward to the show in any case, but it’s been such a rough year for all of us my expectations are higher than usual for something uplifting. 😉1 November 2017 at 04:53 #62304janetteB @janetteb
@missrori I think you are worrying too much. I am sure that the Christmas special will deliver. Firstly it is Moffat’s last story and I suspect he is going to throw everything he can into it. Secondly it is a Christmas Story and they are always uplifting. Moffat is not going to make a Christmas Special sad. He struggled with writing out Matt for that reason. Yes there will be sadness but also joy because that is the way he rolls. Also as we have seen he usually ends the series on a down note then redresses that in the Christmas Special. The final episode deliberately ends with the Doctor alone, without friends or support which will be turned around in the next story because that is how narratives work. You leave your hero in a bad place so that he/she can be pulled out of that and all made good in the conclusion. So trust Moffat. I am certain he will not let the Doctor, (and us) down.
Janette1 November 2017 at 05:32 #62305gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar
@janetteb I agree with you janetteB. Moffat isn’t going to make a Christmas episode sad. I think we can all trust Moffat on this. Of course there are going to be sad moments but there wouldn’t be a story if weren’t any sad moments. But Christmas episodes are happy and we can count on it again this year.1 November 2017 at 12:03 #62309Anonymous @
The only way Moff worked in a load of aliens or monsters in Matt’s farewell was the sheer speed of them -a weeping angel grabbing a foot, another looking at itself forever. And yes Daleks but again quickly done.
I don’t think you can make a decision about how the episode will look when you and us are really not aware of what’s going to happen. “Time frozen” can be a very big whoop indeed, imo. @janetteb speaks sense and @gamergirlavatar (good to see you here and hope you are doing well <waves hello>) too, in my opinion but it’s healthy to worry: adrenaline keeps you scared, keeps your heart beating (now where have I heard that before ? 🙂 )
One way is to look at Moff’s previous Christmas episodes using empirical evidence mixed with practicality. He’s not going to unleash nightmares on us all! Usually he likes to use nuance and simplicity instead of throwing more and more at something which may have cost viewers during Sherlock for instance. In between the breaths is where this man lives and eats. It’s his vocation! The fact not much is being said is a good thing actually.
Also there’ll be change which is good. And he’ll expect us to face up to it which we’re strong enough to do. The next doctor is still The Doctor.
Thane1 November 2017 at 12:09 #62310Anonymous @
You have a huge obsession with Ohila. 🙂 She isn’t going to need to be there is she? That is her story, done for now having spoken to the Doctor and knowing what he was like as Number 8 (the War Doctor) and how easy it is for him to find friends and then lose them when he’s caused it in many ways. Without meeting the Doctor Clara would be living a more normal life, Amy could’ve had more children and then there’s Torchwood etc…
Ohila doesn’t need to apologise to anyone. I rock that chick -you know. For 5 mins and then I forget about her. The actress is terrific. A great deep voice.2 November 2017 at 04:03 #62312gamergirlavatar @gamergirlavatar
Nice to hear from you as well. I liked your reasoning for the new episode. And I agree that this up coming change is going to be good for the show. I can’t wait to see what it’s going to be like.2 November 2017 at 17:15 #62314
@thane15 I think it’s not so much an obsession with Ohila but with the idea of making amends. 🙂 The Doctor adds to his credo at the end of “Hell Bent” that if one is ever cruel or cowardly, “always make amends”. Between that and the Doctor’s discussion of the value of forgiveness in “The Zygon Inversion”, it’s odd that we never saw the Doctor head back to Gallifrey, or at least Karn, to rebuild the bridges with Time Lords and/or Ohila once his head was on straight again. It would have been a wonderful summation of the Doctor’s compassion in Series 9 — he extends the olive branch of forgiveness, and is himself compassionately forgiven, whereupon he moves on.
They didn’t so much as mention him ever getting around to those things in Series 10, so the Xmas show is the last chance for that to happen, and it’s just something I’d like to see — certainly would be happy!
Of course, it can be argued that the Doctor was just talking about being a Doctor in general and he did nothing to apologize for in “Hell Bent”. Who wants to be part of a “jerky club for jerks”, as Homer Simpson might put it? 😉3 November 2017 at 07:41 #62321Anonymous @
The value of forgiveness is obviously discussed by the Doctor in the Zygon Inversion and in Hell Bent.
However, there’s always the angle of “don’t play weak” when up against your enemies or people who have urged one to regenerate into a “war Doctor” which wasn’t Karn’s decision -or Ohila’s but I reckon Gallifrey think Karn’s bizarre ability to regenerate and choose what a person becomes thru some wizard process isn’t necessarily good.
Ohila did whatever she could to help the Doctor when Mr Snake arrived on Karn. And we find the Doctor hiding behind a rock. Later, she storms into the Gallifreyan High Council to see what’s cooking there and probably has a few words to say to the Doctor.
But when the Doctor refers to making amends it’s towards people who he has been cruel towards or cowardly not those who need to be told a thing or two like the High Council and the Karnish (as I call them).
Gallifrey aren’t going to be anything but suspicious towards him. After the other guy ordering the soldiers to fire on him and them missing and the people of the drylands respecting him but not with words -with actions there’s nothing for the Doctor to make amends for.
Shooting the General was something he wasn’t happy with -but the general got up and recognised he was actually a ‘she’ and this was what she had preferred -all that male hormone was “ridiculous”. So I don’t think she felt any anger toward the Doctor in fact possibly respect.
Gallifrey was hidden in time far from the Daleks. The Doctor did that –all 13 of them. He/they saved Gallifrey. For the children, not the snot-nosed Council who never cared for the Drylanders.
My opinion is that we’ve seen enough of Gallifrey. And the best of the show is not where Gallifrey is -but out on adventures on earth or other planets. I know some youtubers accused Moffat of promising a ‘whole lot of Gallifrey’ and only giving them a bit which isn’t really true. We saw enough from the 50th anniversary onwards. Those people who complained are those who think they understand storytelling while the others actually understand good storytelling. The stories will probably go back to being about the Doctor and a companion/assistant etc with the Gallifreyans or the 3 friends of his (keep forgetting what they are: one’s an ‘ex’ Sontaran) seen rarely. I think that allows for more mystery? Each character should be changed by the intervention of the Doctor -or the Doctor herself changed. If that can’t happen or if we’ve seen some change, some momentum, then it’s time for other stories.
It’s like Stranger Things. Once the mystery’s solved the mystique’s gone. And you’re left with brief humorous cracks which get old quick or over the top grossness which isn’t where this show should sit (imo).
Sorry, I got side-tracked about another show entirely.
From, Thane and a good free man… 😀3 November 2017 at 10:31 #62323
I’m still pondering how the Twelfth Doctor will be convinced to accept his transformation — especially when he finds out Bill got her old body back in a new-and-improved form. If Bill didn’t have to accept becoming a Cyberman and find a way to make that work for her, Twelve shouldn’t have to accept losing his identity and form and find a way to make it work for the thirteenth time in his lives. Neither person wanted to change, they were great people just as they were, but it was pushed on them nonetheless and they had to change to keep on living anyway. Going by that parallel, Twelve should either die or become a new-and-improved version of what he is now — same personality, same looks, new awesome flying powers and laser eyes. 😀
Of course, Bill is human and Twelve is a Time Lord, but the Doctor is far more human than others of his kind and doesn’t see regeneration the way they do anymore…he’s too aware of what he loses. And where Eleven came to his end on the surprise heels of a huge triumph with a beloved companion at his side, Twelve is…not so lucky. He’s undergone a lot of sorrow and loss, probably believing all that effort of redeeming Missy was for naught. So the glass is half-empty for him while it was half-full for Eleven.
But I can think of lots of ways the episode can make Twelve’s change a happy occasion.
- As I previously suggested, Bill chooses to become The Good Cyberman again as a show of support to the Doctor and this encourages him to embrace change at last too.
- The regeneration takes place…but along with the first ever gender-flip for the Doctor, this regeneration is the first one that does not alter their personality at all, because Twelve really is too good to lose. Thirteen has the same personality as Twelve so she can go into her adventures feet first, without all that soul searching Twelve had to do.
- Twelve realizes he’ll get awesome new powers as Thirteen, which would parallel Bill getting new abilities as a pilot like Heather. This turns Bill’s unhappy Cyberman tenure into growing pains towards a positive end, like Twelve’s identity crisis in Series 8 was for him. And Thirteen thus has flying abilities and laser eyes. 😉
- Missy comes back — or her next self, who is still good — and the Doctor is thus reminded just how good change can be.
I’m pretty sure the Moff has something different planned to get to the happy ending, but don’t you want flying abilities and laser eyes? 😀3 November 2017 at 10:40 #62325
As a note, the Doctor not getting superpowers with this regeneration is not a deal-breaker for me but the ratings aren’t what they used to be and they’re shaking things up anyway… 😉3 November 2017 at 13:24 #62329
@bluesqueakpip I read your column on what the Moff may have in mind for the Doctor’s acceptance of change (that One recognizing Twelve will help, and Twelve will accept the idea of not always being a white guy, etc.). I think you may be on to something. But how do the other confirmed characters fit into this, and how can humanity’s resilience help the Doctor come to terms with something they don’t have to endure (and if they do it usually isn’t good)? We will have to see! 🙂6 November 2017 at 14:50 #62339
I was just thinking — remember how some of us were theorizing that “Twice Upon a Time” might be the Twelfth Doctor’s version of It’s a Wonderful Life? How does that work if there aren’t any returning characters aside from One, his last companions, and Bill? Guess that theory was wrong… 😉6 November 2017 at 15:12 #62340JimTheFish @jimthefishTime Lord
Not necessarily. For one thing, it is possible that all you’d need for such a plot is Bill and Clara. But at the same time we don’t know one way or the other who (or what) is returning. They’re clearly keeping quite a lot under their hat and don’t forget Rachel Talalay did tweet some time back about the heavily ‘fangasm’ nature of the script. That suggests to me more than One and Bill….6 November 2017 at 16:25 #62341
@jimthefish Hmmm, I missed that tweet, but I have hardly ever been part of the Tweet-o-Sphere anyway. Good to know. 😉7 November 2017 at 03:20 #62344RorySmith @rorysmith
After a rewatch of Broadchurch, I feel good.
Im ready.10 November 2017 at 14:44 #62384
@jimthefish — I don’t quite follow how Twelve can be shown how his life/lives are/were worth all the trouble if there are no characters besides Bill and maybe Clara returning. Could you elaborate? 🙂
Also, as someone who is frustrated by how Twelve wasn’t as popular as Ten and Eleven with “the masses”, I can’t help but fear that the BBC went cheap for his finale and that’s why all the recent news has been about looking ahead to Thirteen. 😀 I really thought that by now we’d hear about other cast members, the villain, the runtime (movie-length or not?), etc.10 November 2017 at 20:01 #62390
Filming is underway…10 November 2017 at 20:58 #6239210 November 2017 at 21:04 #62393
Won’t be satisfied unless all characters (Including aliens) speak with broad Yorkshire accents…
Filming at charity shop this morning, so maybe that’s where the new costume is supposed to herald from…
— Bur Morgan (@Fishmorgan) November 10, 201710 November 2017 at 23:39 #6239610 November 2017 at 23:47 #62398
It’s Children in Need next Friday & we’ll get a sneaky peak at the Xmas episode!11 November 2017 at 01:46 #62399
Won’t be satisfied unless all characters (Including aliens) speak with broad Yorkshire accents…
Every planet has a Yorkshire. Okay, I’m starting to get excited about this. 😀16 November 2017 at 19:18 #62430
— Girly Letters (@GirlyLetters) November 16, 2017
The same person who was at #LIWho said Edward Russell would not go into detail about the thirteenth Doctor's earring (yes, it was mentioned as singular, not two earrings so it might be connected Bajoran-style) and "there's a definite reason for it".
— Girly Letters (@GirlyLetters) November 16, 201720 November 2017 at 17:30 #6244321 November 2017 at 12:22 #6245422 November 2017 at 16:29 #6245922 November 2017 at 20:22 #6246023 November 2017 at 11:30 #62463
I note that Whittaker has the kind of body shape that can actually carry off the Capaldi costume, so it wouldn’t surprise me if Chibnall does the same thing Moffat did, and have the final costume reveal as a statement about the kind of Doctor she’s going to be. The Smith Doctor spent most of The Eleventh Hour in the Tennant Doctor’s costume.
Though now my mind is vaguely wondering whether, if so, Time Lord underwear is programmed to regenerate with the wearer (switching to more gender-appropriate undies), whether poor old Jodie Whittaker is going to spend most of the first episode bra-less, or whether there’s something about the Capaldi Doctor that we were never told… 😈25 November 2017 at 13:47 #62477
Series 11 set to film in South Africa…
— Girly Letters (@GirlyLetters) November 23, 2017
— Girly Letters (@GirlyLetters) November 24, 201725 November 2017 at 14:20 #62479
Yes, someone tweeted that one of the crew members mentioned South Africa. At the time, I thought the crew member was taking the p*ss, but possibly Chibbers has done a ‘less episodes/same total budget’ deal, which would allow them to use South African locations.26 November 2017 at 14:22 #62486Craig @craigEmperor
I’m closing this thread as we’ve gone over the page limit (which stops direct links to posts working).
You can find the new thread here: https://www.thedoctorwhoforum.com/forums/topic/spoilers-4/
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