The Time of The Doctor

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  • #24137
    Brewski @brewski

    @arbutus Thanks.  I’m afraid I’m good for little more than bonkers ideas.

    As for rules of fiction:

    Prior to TTotD I read several posters on various sites who swore that “if they don’t honor the 12 regeneration limit I will NEVER watch the show again!”

    But, um… if they DO honor the 12 regeneration limit (i.e. this is the last Doctor) you STILL will never watch the show again.  There won’t be one.

    Or, to put it another way…

    Dalek: (To Doctor, tied to a chair) Doc-tor. You will die. (Aims egg whisp) Bzzorp!

    Doctor: AUGH! I’m dying! (Begins to glow). But now I am regenerating.

    Dalek: Explain! EXPLAIN!!

    Doctor: I’m a Time Lord. I can regenerate 12 times!

    Dalek: Bzzorp!

    Doctor: AUGH! I’m dying again! And regenerating!

    Dalek: Bzzorp!

    Doctor: (Etc. Repeat 10 more times)

    Dalek: This is your last life Doc-tor! Now you will die for the last time! Bzzorp! Wait! What is hap-en-ing? You are not dy-ing! And you’re making my heat ray is des-troy ME! How can this be? HOW CAN THIS BE??!!

    Doctor: Science Friction!

    Dalek: (Vanishes in a puff of discontinuity.)

     

    #24138
    Brewski @brewski

    @arbutus forgot to mention.  I’m actually a rare breed, one who LIKED Adric.  But your notion that Tasha is actually there to guard him from getting back did make me giggle… 😀

     

     

    #24139
    supremegrocer @supremegrocer

    I am sorry if this has been brought up before, and I admit, I might be forgetting something. But, How did the Doctor regenerate at the end? I know they gave him a new set of regenerations, but that isn’t what I mean. Unless I am missing something, the Doctor has split timelines and it doesn’t work out.

    This is my problem with the situation. As I remember it, in The Impossible Astronaut, the Doctor was killed by the Astronaut and they burned his body. Then, they all go to the Diner and find a younger Doctor there as well. From then on, they continue from the younger Doctor’s timeline.. Whose future will always lead him to that lake where he is killed.

    I hope someone can point out what I have missed because this is driving me nuts.

    #24140
    Anonymous @

    @brewski – Welcome

    I’m afraid I’m good for little more than bonkers ideas.

    That’s what we’re here for. The more bonkers the better 😀

    According to various scientists, due to a massive Coronal Mass Ejection, there was a possibility of seeing the Northern Lights as far south as London. I’ve stayed awake in the desperate hope of seeing them but, so far, they’ve failed to materialise. Your argument for why Tasha is Adric has bought a smile to my extremely disappointed face (as well as causing me to spray coffee over my keyboard). Thank you 🙂

    #24141
    Anonymous @

    @supremegrocer – welcome

    The Doctor that ‘died’ in TIA wasn’t really The Doctor, it was the Tesselector disguised as The Doctor (which was revealed in The Wedding Of River Song).

    Hope this helps.

    #24142
    supremegrocer @supremegrocer

    Yes! Thank you! I was pretty sure I had forgotten something. That would have been a pretty big mistake lol.

    #24143
    Anonymous @

    @brewski ha 10 mins?  No, no it had to have taken longer!  @arbutus, yes, I wasn’t particularly anti-Adric either although a number of friends found him obsessed or, at other times, disconcertingly sluggish and stupefied: all of which I put down to his complete distance or aloofness (is that a word?) from others.

    This brings me to another point: the one of attempting to understand the utterly harrowing, and at times, beautiful landscape of Gallifrey. the language alone, with its relentless circles, multiplying from more circles: action from re-action, unconfined but inexpressible to us; nonetheless aesthetically attractive and clever. To be the lonely Doctor for all those years and to remember the stark beauty of his home before the High Council’s madness turned it into a planet from which even young Cass ran.

    I guess being with my Czech relatives for a week this past Christmas reminded me of how words are connected to feelings and ideas that are often difficult to translate beyond the rigid and unfamiliar tongue. Other words and phrases revive old expressions and resurrect a new articulation. The Doctor was excited during tDofD to realise that his planet now occupied a pocket universe and of course recognised his mixed feelings regarding the TL’s beliefs; their delusion and grandeur; their unlimited vanity but also he missed his beautiful home: “the shining world of the Seven Systems….in the mountains of solace and solitude… stood the citadel of the Time Lords only to watch never to interfere”.

    All those years to be away from one’s home (however mixed those feelings might be) would have been so difficult. His thought patterns, away from Gallifrey, would have of necessity, become different with more common thoughts becoming inexpressible (as I remember he said to Martha in Tennant’s second season). I recall my parents’ arrival in Melbourne having escaped Prague: they felt very close to other refugees, even those with whom friendship in their own village would not have come so readily.

    But same seeks same just as The Doctor still desperately wished The Master would regenerate as they were the only “ones left”. The Doctor and The Master had ears and eyes fixed irrevocably in the ancient confines of their own unique language. In every other place, across universes, they were tourists – but always knowing they could never ever get home. That I think, is a dreadful thing. At least some families, such as my own, whilst not wishing to be permanent residents in Prague, could at least re-visit and reacquaint themselves with the eloquent, fundamentally witty, politically charged and very rhythmic language of that small portion of Europe.

    Is it no wonder the Doctor has old eyes? Perhaps his were often looking back to the red grass, the illuminated moons of the harsh light of Gallifrey and the desolate, awesome vortex which roared from behind the Citadel.

    Now at least we’re on a new chapter: a Gallifrey to be found, and whilst not a permanent resident, the Doctor can be more than an admiring tourist -firstly, he has to be the diplomat and intermediary.

    Kindest, purofilion

    PS @arbutus in Sydney I had a few of those mocha frappes -I’m horrible like that. I rarely inch my way into the ‘menus’ of 12 pages or more of coffee recipes! Generally, my iced coffee is just crushed ice and a coffee brew with a blob of brown sugar. Whew. It sure waketh the demon!

    #24144
    Anonymous @

    @fatmaninabox  LOL  my own nephew who lives somewhere between London and Sydney also did the same thing! I mentioned to him that you could ‘hear’ the coronal mass injection via a tune -in to a radio station. He didn’t understand when I said what if the ‘noise’ came from a Gamestation cybernetic human controller who gives someone the transmat coordinates to a Dalek spaceship. I think he wanted me medicated. Of course that’s what they probably said about the controller in Bad Wolf 🙂 …. Kindest, purofilion

    #24145
    PurpleCup @purplecup

    Sometime after Demon’s Run, Dorian (spelling?) said “On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer… etc”. So this is refering to the truth field. But the Doctor never answered the question. He sat there for hundreds of years and never answered. He heard the question and he knew the answer but didn’t reply. On a technicality, should he have? Was there a compulsion to answer the question?

     

    @purofilion – we tried to see the Southern lights last night. They were anticipated to be seen down our way, but still too close to town. Will try again tonight.

    #24147
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @Purofilion

    re your post 24143

    That is such a moving parallel to the Doctor’s experience of being a “displaced person”.  Thanks for posting

    Hi and welcome to @brewski – I can see you’re going to fit in well around here 😀

    @fatmaninabox I gave up on aurora-watching around 2am – too much low lying thick cloud

    @purplecup re The question – the prophecy is:

    “On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered.”

    So the prophecy is fulfilled, and in fact the question was answered (by Clara) (Note that the prophecy says the question “must never be answered” not that it “will” or “won’t” be answered). Or maybe it’s not – damn tricky things, prophecies 😉 (Not to mention their usually dubious sources – in this case a bodyless blue head in a box, with a reputation of being, in his former existence, shall we say, a bit shady?! )

    #24149
    PurpleCup @purplecup

    @scaryb – you make a good point, a shady man indeed! And thinking more about it, he said “fall of the Eleventh” which was at the end when he was goading the daleks etc, which is when Clara spoke to the TLs. So forget I asked, but thanks for helping me think a bit more clearly !

    🙂

     

    #24159
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purplecup and @scaryb We also saw an example of not failing to answer in the early conversation between the Doctor, Clara and the couple. Clara’s asked “What did you say your name was” – and replies truthfully. But not to the question asked. Instead she blurts out “bubbly personality masking bossy control freak”.

    The Doctor doesn’t answer with his name, either. He just keeps telling them he’s wearing a wig. 🙂

    You can’t fail to answer and you can’t lie. You can, however, not answer the question asked.

    Oh, and you can also lie by telling the exact truth – since ‘Rule One’, the Doctor picks that skill up pretty quickly.

    #24161
    Brewski @brewski

    @purofilion ha 10 mins?  No, no it had to have taken longer!

    All right, you caught me. 😉 Still, it was better than my first attempt: “The Alzariuses moper mouth”.

    Hi @scaryb. And thanks!

    @purplecup and @scaryb: re Dorian’s prophesy:

    Not to mention how tricky prophesies become when you are dealing with multiple possible-futures!

    For example: in one future (where the Doctor dies and is buried on Trenzalore) he may well have been compelled to answer the question. In the future we saw, a “different” Doctor, following a different time stream did NOT have to fulfill that other timeline prophesy.

    There are, in a sense, two of them. A classic Pair o’ Docs.

     

    #24162
    Brewski @brewski

    Now it’s my turn to ask a question. This is regarding the hologram clothes and the members of the church of the Papal Mainframe:

    At Clara’s turkey dinner, we learn that only Clara can see the Doctor’s hologram clothes. (Much to the horror of her father and delight of Hollow Gramma.) Because the hologram was only being projected on Clara’s eyes.

    So… when they went to the Mainframe, did the Doctor adjust their holograms to project on all the church members’ eyes?

    No. Because Tasha says “Thank you for your nudity.” And no one else questioned her saying, “What do you mean? They’re wearing clothes.”

    So then, who was the hologram for??

    And why later does Tasha say everyone in the church is trained to see through holograms? Does that mean they DID see holograms? If so, why did she thank them for their nudity?

    And why did Clara say “Great” sarcastically upon discovering that they could see through her hologram? After all, Tasha thanked them for their nudity in the first place. What did Clara THINK they were seeing?

    I think it may be less a case of Clara not having underwear and more one of the writer’s slip showing.

    #24166
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @brewski. In the show, the hologram was for Clara; she didn’t feel comfortable seeing herself or the Doctor naked. While I’m sure she was ‘aware’ it was only a hologram, she didn’t realise everyone on the Papal Mainframe could see through it. As in, see through it, rather than seeing that they were wearing hologram clothes rather than real ones.

    In the wider world, the hologram was for the audience. Otherwise there would’ve been a lot of small children complaining “Mummy, why’ve you put your hand over my eyes? Mummy, I can’t see.” 😈

    In terms of the plot, the need for nudity in 50th Century churches (which, whether Moffat knows it or not, harks to Early Christianity – adults being baptised had to be naked) explains why the Doctor’s wearing a wig instead of showing off his new lack-of-hairstyle.

    #24167
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb @purplecup

    (Not to mention their usually dubious sources – in this case a bodyless blue head in a box, with a reputation of being, in his former existence, shall we say, a bit shady?! )

    you make a good point, a shady man indeed!

    I’m not a shady character and to prove it, I’m sending my ‘associates’ round to ‘convince’ you otherwise 😈

    #24168
    Brewski @brewski

    @bluesqueakpip.  I can accept your explanation about the holograms being for Clara’s benefit.  Thanks.

    However, I think the reason the early Christians were naked for baptism is because using clothes lines was such a pain in the neck and as soon as the dryer was invented they put a stop to all that nudity thing!

    As far as the practical issue of nudity on prime time t.v., they would have simply blurred out the naughty bits.  So the question would have been “Mummy why are they all blurry like that?” and Mother could answer, “They’re just a little pixelated.”

    @fatmaninabox you ARE a shady character!  But a rather fetching shade of blue.

     

    #24169
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @brewski – you do realise that some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches still have nudity in baptism?

    I think there’s even a joke about it in My Big Fat Greek Wedding – the protagonist’s best friend is, if I recall, very enthusiastic about being godparent to the fiance. [Who has to get baptised if it’s to be an in-church wedding].

    The fact that this role means she’ll have to put chrism oil all over a very hot, very naked guy is, of course, completely unrelated to her enthusiasm. 😉

    #24175
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @brewski     A classic Pair o’ Docs.       Can I be president of your fan club?   🙂

    #24179
    Brewski @brewski

    @bluesqueakpip   you do realise that some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches still have nudity in baptism?

    I did not.  But it might be enough to make me religious again….   mmm…. nah.

    The fact that this role means she’ll have to put chrism oil all over a very hot, very naked guy is, of course, completely unrelated to her enthusiasm.

    LOL.  Holy Crisco!

     

    #24180
    Brewski @brewski

    @arbutus Can I be president of your fan club?

    😉 Provided you don’t eventually decide to beat me with it.

     

    #24186
    Brewski @brewski

    Kidneys!!

    Is there a renal theme here?  Is Moffat very organ-ized?  Or is it a case of bean there, done that?

    I thought something sounded familiar, so I went back and checked.  Here is a snippet of the audition script for the 12th Doctor:

    THE DOCTOR: Right then, eyesight. Not bad, bit blue. Ears – not pointy, right way up, more or less level. Face – well I’ve got one. Oh, no – French!
    CLARA: French.
    THE DOCTOR: I’ve deleted French! Plus all cookery skills, and the breast stroke. And hopping. Never mind hopping, who needs to hop. Ohh, the kidneys are interesting. Never had that before – interesting kidneys.

     

    #24198
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    I’ve had a bit of what is probably a bonkers thought. We all assume that the doctor only realised the probability that gallifrey was not destroyed after events of DOTD. But given that he almost seemed to be expecting the return of the crack and that in TGC it was revealed in TOTD that the crack was the doctors fear in his room (btw indicating that even the doctor has a faith, even if it’s in himself). I am wondering if he had an inkling that the Timelords and thus Gallifey was still around. As to the truth field on trenzalore surely if this was a timelord invention as soon as the doctor realised it existence he would have smelled a proverbial timelord rat. Also given the doctors rule 1,and given that in the past the doctor has been considered a “renegade” surely he has developed methods to circumnavigate around said field.yes I think somewhere at the back of the doctors admittedly enormous mind he must have known that his fellow Timelords were still around. It also begs the question that given he knew he was in his last regeneration was there some master plan in staying on Trenzalore with possiblity that the high council or others of the timelord race would save him.

    Argh this is making my head swim with all the twisty possibilities 🙂

    #24202
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Just had another bonkers idea, we’ve had mentioned that the regeneration process almost seems to have become a weapon in the Timelords arsenal, but what if the massive power surge was more to do with the fact that the Timelords were effectively resetting his regeneration cycles. I imagine this would take significant amounts of “power” so to speak so the destructive power that destroyed the Dalek mothership was actually incidental, though possibly not unexpected and given the Timelords propensity for each action having more than one effect killing two birds with one stone. 1 giving the doctor his new regeneration cycle and 2destroying his attackers. In addition along with others I am thinking of capaldidoc as doctor 2.0 in some respects but with capdoc asthe first incarnation in the new cycle with 12 more regenerations left not 11as some might think. With the Matt/Peter regen being a resetting process, hence possibly the fact that capdoc seems to have some memory problems as I am sure something like that would at least temporarily scramble anyone’s brains.

    #24203
    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby  sorry LOL ‘Master’ Plan? Master? Anyone? Nope. Not funny. OK. I think that the Truth Field was something he was happily surprised to see? “I haven’t seen one of these in ages” much like in Tennant’s first episode (also a Christmas special) when he said “blood trance [something along those lines] haven’t seen one o’ these in years. Course it doesn’t really work that well.” Anyway, it appeared simplistic to Mat in the town of Christmas so I think he may not have initially thought it was Gallifreyan inspired ?  As for thinking that the TLs might show up and give him a helping hand (LOL. Sorry), it just strikes me that the Doctor wouldn’t behave like that….but then….he did take up the offer regarding the tesselector…thing is, it’s just not normally his way to ask for assistance. I think he knew it was all done and dusted. But, for the Impossible Girl who intervenes…now that’s allowed. 🙂

    Kindest, purofilion

    #24204
    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    Lol @purofilion I did say they were bonkers thoughts 🙂 and desperate times need desperate measures

    #24215
    Anonymous @

    @devilishrobby    oh I need the bonkers thoughts please. Keep ’em comin’ as sadly, what do I do when watching the last 3 episodes for instance? I reflect!  Cripes, like we need more of that.  🙂 So, I’m hoping to add some bonkers thoughts in my account at this site (as it were) otherwise I shall find myself overdrawn!

    #24272
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick, @bluesqueakpip     But I have to ask myself, is Clara asking nicely absolutely the best idea that the production team could come up with to resolve the end of the Doctors regeneration cycle and the beginning of a new one ? … But, and this is a big but, as an idea in of itself, is it sufficient to deliver the punch line for an entire era ?

    Forgive me for lifting this bit out of your dialogue and moving it over here, but I think that Nick is right and it is a slightly different topic from the rest of the discussion. And I think it’s a good question. The time lords have been sitting there for a long, long time, the Doctor on one side of that crack and Gallifrey on the other. Did it not occur to them before Clara spoke that they ought to help the Doctor? Surely, if they understood enough of what was going on to open and close cracks, and send that regeneration energy to the Doctor at just the right time, they must have known for awhile that this was indeed the real Doctor, but that it wasn’t “safe” for them to return. For that matter, they obviously realized that he needed regeneration energy, and they could only have known this by observing the Doctor through the crack all this time.

    Does the “Clara asking nicely” ending exist because it was the best solution to the problem, or because the writers wanted Clara to be part of the solution? If the time lords were always intending to help, why have Clara ask? If they weren’t, why not? And why would Clara’s asking be enough to change their minds? I have no problem accepting that it went that way, for the sake of a story that I really quite enjoyed, but from a storytelling perspective, it does seem a bit weak. I wonder if there could or should have been some other motivation to propel the time lords to action. I don’t seem to be able to come up with a better resolution myself, though, so I can’t be too hard on theirs.  🙂

     

     

    #24273
    Nick @nick

    @arbutus

    Regarding the question I posed – its one of opinion and preference.

    The fair answer, I think is, time will tell. Will we be looking back in 5 or 10 years time (or more even) and saying that was a really great story that tied up large elements of the Moffat era story arc in a really satisfying way with a superb  regeneration scene at the end or great regeneration – its a shame about the rest of the story.

    Right now, I think the latter is closer to how I feel about this episode and that the resolution concept was a poor one, well executed in a story with some great scenes, but overall the total was less than the sum of the parts. That’s my opinion today and I know it won’t be the universal one. Since series 8 filming has started, its clear now that Moffat has been busy writing and editing the next series, along with Sherlock and probably some other things we don’t know about yet, but it seems to me that the “Brains’ Trust” in the production team has the skill experience and talent to have come up with something better than this even allowing for all of these commitments.

    The story itself

    We may still get some pay-off in season 8 and beyond, which may deliver missing back story (Tasha Lem) or explain the TimeLords perspective of all this, in fact Moffat is clever (I think) at introducing these ideas and leaving them open for later reinterpretation and explanation. That strength is also his great weakness as well in my opinion.

    I for one would really like to know how we got from the Doctor being stuck on Trenzalore with Clara in his own timeline at the end of series 7 to the two “specials”.

    Cheers

    Nick

    #24276
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @nick

    I for one would really like to know how we got from the Doctor being stuck on Trenzalore with Clara in his own timeline at the end of series 7 to the two “specials”.

    That one’s easy – it turns out there was a production problem. Matt Smith injured his knee and it was all he could do to pick Jenna Coleman up. He certainly couldn’t manage the ‘turn and leap for freedom’ that they’d planned to show the exit from the timeline.

    Sometimes the best-laid scripting plans come up against real life…

    #24278
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @arbutus and @nick

    Did it not occur to them before Clara spoke that they ought to help the Doctor?

    Good question: what I would ask (since it’d need a detailed rewatch) is: do the Time Lords have any idea how they need to help the Doctor?

    What I mean is: their last view of the Doctor is of thirteen Doctors. The Tennant Doctor’s regeneration to the same face happened when they were completely out of events (whether time-locked or destroyed, they were out of it). Clara’s first ‘Doctor, can you explain the plot?’ discussion about not regenerating and the waiting tomb takes place up on the clock tower, not near the crack.

    As far as they’re concerned, the Smith Doctor is the owner of Body Number Twelve – and can regenerate. I don’t think it’s until Clara’s second visit that there’s an entire conversation about dying and a predestined death near the crack.

    As @phaseshift pointed out a long time back; it’s important that the Doctor himself doesn’t ask for immortality. In the Whoniverse, that’s always bad; always a sign of impending madness. Thematically, I’d say it’s also important that the Doctor accepts that he’s going to die – it’s the last thing he stops running away from.

    I’m sure the Time Lords were smart enough to figure out that there was a problem. I’m just not sure they knew the real problem. They may have been patiently (or not-so-patiently) waiting for the Doctor to tell them all through the events of Time of The Doctor. 🙂

    #24280
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @bluesqueakpip, @arbutus, @nick

    I may be missing something quite obvious, but if Clara could communicate to the Time Lords through the crack, and if the Timelords could send the regenerations through the crack, then can we not also assume that the Time Lords have always been able to see through the crack? If so, then can we not assume that they are well aware of the Doctor’s approaching mortality, and decide to award him the regenerations when it suits them–that is, after he has spent 300 years defending the town of Christmas, and before he dies.

    While Clara’s plea (“If you love him…”) might have a Tinkerbell ring to it, It might be because it now suits them to do so.

     

    #24283
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip, @arbutus, @nick, @blenkinsopthebrave

    In TGWW the robots would say “It’s a kindness” and their intensions were good, but their medicine resulted in death something we saw as bad.

     In TTotD the result of the regeneration energy was life something we saw as good, but their intentions could have been bad.  

     The Doctor was definitely happy to get the regeneration energy, so maybe he tricked the TLs into giving it to him. If what the Doctor said about the Minotaur in TGC was also related to himself, “to such a creature death would be a blessing”. My bonkers theory is that the crack WAS inside room eleven and the Doctor knew that, so he said that about the Minotaur while knowing the TLs were listening through the crack. They would then send more energy because the Doctor said he didn’t want it.

     I have no idea how Clara fits into this theory though. Maybe that’s why the Doctor kept trying to send her away so many times? 🙂  But a better explanation is, the Doctor knew Clara would try to save him and she would call him Doctor (the only name she knows him by) which the TLs probably hate. He knows just hearing his name makes them angry and ensures their wrathful retaliation of sending regeneration energy

    #24284
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip  @arbutus @nick  now this is  a silly idea/thought but I recall that Dr Smith at the end of Cold Blood pulled a piece of the TARDIS from the Crack. This means that other ‘bits and pieces’ from the Crack can interchange; for example, Smith ends up ‘hopping’  into the Crack before being ‘remembered’ back by Amy (“you’re late to my weddinggah“) and the poor forgotten clerics in Flesh and Stone disappear into the Crack together with the weeping angels.  People are ‘remembered back’ or restored after the re-boot. Are we assuming the clerics return to 2010 also?

    Do we then consider that the Angels (and I grant that there are many of them in different places around the universe/space and time) can return from the Crack and appear like wounded soldiers in the snow (in the town of Christmas) but perhaps with weakened powers? I understand that many warriors (Daleks, Cyberman etc.) were assembled above Trenzalore for the final “minor skirmish” but I wondered if the some of the Angles arrived via the Crack spitting them out? If something is behind the Crack and regeneration energy can be sent by the TLs from inside the Crack, what else is in there waiting to come out? What else could still go back in?

    As I said before, I found it intriguing that Smith could put his hand in the Crack (‘ouch that’s hot’) and pull out an obvious piece of the TARDIS. Could there be unexplained energy leaking in and out as Smith did that: did it provoke the TLs to come looking for the Doctor at this ‘point’ with more conviction? Assuming that the TLs, whilst in stasis, are moving, more or less, according to acknowledged linear time?

    Kindest,  purofilion

    #24287
    Nick @nick

    @purofilion @barnable @blenkinsopthebrave @bluesqueakpip @arbutus

    I’m with Blenkinsopthebrave on the cracks. I think the Doctor said (paraphrasing) that the cracks remained as points of weaknesses which in the rebooted universe after he restored it and that the Timelords (being outside the universe) were using these weakness to get back inside the universes. From TotD, I think it follows they can use any crack to survey the universe (I don’t know what was said earlier, but i assume the cracks are spread throughout the universe from big bang to nothingness at the end).

    The question is can they come though the cracks unaided or not. TotD implies (but doesn’t state) they can’t, but…

    I will offer any idea though. If I was a sneaky TimeLord I’d use the signal to draw the Doctor and all the  “big bads” to Trenzalore while sneaking back in somewhere else.

    I think it’s always going to be in the TimeLords interest to have a “Doctor” out there in the universe as a direct or indirect agent (occasionally) and long standing foe of the Daleks (especially) so they shouldn’t need much motivation to issue a new regeneration cycle to him.

    Nick

     

    #24289
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    That one’s easy – it turns out there was a production problem. Matt Smith injured his knee and it was all he could do to pick Jenna Coleman up. He certainly couldn’t manage the ‘turn and leap for freedom’ that they’d planned to show the exit from the timeline.

    Sometimes the best-laid scripting plans come up against real life…

     

    Thanks for this – I hadn’t heard this before. Even so, the end of series 7 called for some sort of solution where the Doctor/Clara removed or absorbed the Great Intelligence from the Doctor’s time line doesn’t it before they can “leap free”. As I said on your blog post about Deus Ex Machine I’m guessing the series 7/series 8 cross-over has been affected by the need to regenerate plus Moffat wanted to avoid writing the Capaldi era themed around the Doctor’s struggle to avoid becoming the Valeyard…meaning he’s left an unresolved gap in the narrative.

    Thanks

    Nick

    #24293
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    some sort of solution where the Doctor/Clara removed or absorbed the Great Intelligence from the Doctor’s time line doesn’t it before they can “leap free”.

    @nick. Yes. It does. The solution was called ‘Clara’.

    What did you think she was doing in there? 😀

    [There was in fact a line or two explaining that spending too long in someone else’s time stream is slightly fatal. The Great Intelligence, it was explained at 90mph, would be scattered along the time stream and would die – but not before doing the damage that Clara leapt in to repair.]

    #24294
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @nick

    More thoughts on the crack in the universe.

    It still exists, so it is highly likely it will feature in S8. If the Time Lords can see through the crack and send regenerations through the crack, what else might they be able to send through?

    I think we can safely assume they cannot send all of Gallifrey through, but might it be possible to send one Time Lord through? If so, who? OK, now this is bonkers speculation, but, a steely, slightly fierce Doctor like the Capaldi Doctor might be up for an ongoing battle of wits with…the Master.

    Yes, probably just wishful thinking on my part, but still…

    #24295
    The Doctor @thetasigma

    So is Tasha Lem a previous regeneration of River Song because, for one she can fly the T.A.R.D.I.S and the Daleks claim they killed her multiple times before extracting information about The Doctor from her*. She mentioned River by stating that the Papal Mainframe engineered a psychopath to kill him, but that information could easily be obtained from a database such as the T.A.R.D.I.S, just as River discovered who she was by using the Teselecta to change into River Song.

     

     

    *Most of you will probably say that the Daleks killing Tasha would have triggered the regeneration cycle, unless she chose to remain the same…( I believe that’s possibly)

    #24297
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick     We may still get some pay-off in season 8 and beyond, which may deliver missing back story (Tasha Lem) or explain the TimeLords perspective of all this, in fact Moffat is clever (I think) at introducing these ideas and leaving them open for later reinterpretation and explanation. That strength is also his great weakness as well in my opinion.

    Good point about the perspective of the time lords, there may well be more to come there when we meet them again. You’re also right about Moffat’s inconclusiveness being both a strength and a weakness: great when it keeps the viewer interested and postpones some of the payoff, but annoying when threads are left dangling for too long!

    #24298
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick @purofilion @barnable @blenkinsopthebrave @bluesqueakpip

    I’m sure that @bluesqueakpip is right that the time lords didn’t know until Clara’s return that the Doctor had used up his regenerations. However, they did have some time between that conversation and when they actually got the job done. Viewing it from a storytelling perspective, Clara asks the time lords to help and then they do. So this implies that they helped because she asked. It’s possible that the timing was simply coincidence, but this isn’t what is suggested by the writing. So I guess I will be hoping to learn what it was in Clara’s words that elicited the help.

    @blenkinsopthebrave     and decide to award him the regenerations when it suits them–that is, after he has spent 300 years defending the town of Christmas, and before he dies.     I guess they’re just lucky he wasn’t instantly killed at some point in those 300 years, in some scrimmage against a Cyberman!  🙂

    @nick     The question is can they come though the cracks unaided or not. TotD implies (but doesn’t state) they can’t, but…     This is a point that has bothered me. It is indeed implied that the time lords could return without the Doctor’s help. And yet, it took him so much effort and impossible time-line-crossing to send Gallifrey to the pocket universe, that it would be nice if it wasn’t too easy for the time lords to bring it back. I know that there could be lots of possible explanations for the fact that they could do it, it’s just that it isn’t very satisfying.

    @purofilion   I guess it depends on how we think the cracks actually work. It’s tempting to think of them as doorways, but I don’t think that’s how they were originally depicted. Earlier, they seemed to be more like voids. People who went through were just gone, had never existed, unlike when Rose & Co. went to Pete’s World, but everyone from our universe could still remember them. I would guess that the reason that the piece of TARDIS still existed to be pulled out was that it was the centre of the explosion. It caused the cracks.

     

    #24299
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Even more possible, it seems to me, is that the Master could sneak through somehow. If the time lords had their choice of anyone to send, I’m not sure why they would choose the Master, as he would be highly untrustworthy. Can’t you just see him, having been sent through to help the Doctor restore Gallifrey, saying, “To heck with Gallifrey! They can stay on the other side of that crack. It’s much more fun over here without them!”  🙂

    I’m with you, though, in hoping for his return, possibly in a slightly quieter, wittier relationship with the Doctor!

    #24301
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @arbutus

    Viewing it from a storytelling perspective, Clara asks the time lords to help and then they do. So this implies that they helped because she asked.

    Granted. But while Clara’s plea does have a rather Tinkerbell air about it that is designed to appeal to the Linda Lee in us all, it doesn’t really feel right in terms of what we already know about the Time Lords. Let’s face it, they are just not that nice!

    I guess they’re just lucky he wasn’t instantly killed at some point in those 300 years, in some scrimmage against a Cyberman!

    Well, that is one of the many benefits of being fictional!

    Even more possible, it seems to me, is that the Master could sneak through somehow.

    Yes, agree entirely. And agree about a slightly quieter, wittier relationship between the two. I never really embraced the manic screaming of John Simm. Or the “Snidely Whiplash” of Anthony Ainley. But I do have fond memories of the smoothly cultured evil of Roger Delgardo. Who could provide a good foil for Peter Capaldi? Perhaps Bill Nighy? or Charles Dance?

    #24302
    Nick @nick

    @arbutus

    One thing I think it might be worth bearing in mind, the cracks seen in TofD and previously don’t necessarily have the same properties. Those in TofD are weak points in the fabric of the universe used by the TimeLords, whereas previously the cracks were faults creating by the Tardis exploding propagating through the universe.

    Nick

    #24303
    Nick @nick

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I’d actually like to see John Simm play the character in the way it seems to have wanted to. He’s on the record as saying his vision and RTD’s weren’t exactly on the same page.

    I think any really good actor (or actress) who plays the role straight could be convincing if the script is written well and in that style, although playing being evil and insane without showing the insanity must be a tall ask for most actors. One who springs to my mind immediately is Ralph Fiennes (thinking Schlinder’s List not Voldemort). I think Rafe Spall might just have the intensity in him to make it work as well. For a left field choice how about Christopher Eccleston ?

    Nick

    #24304
    Nick @nick

    @bluesqueakpip

    The Great Intelligence, it was explained at 90mph, would be scattered along the time stream and would die

    Thanks as ever. I really should have expected something like that by now.

    Nick

    #24308
    ConfusedPolarity @confusedpolarity

    @blenkinsopthebrave – I reckon the Master could find a way through from the pocket universe if any Time Lord could, and he’d make a terrific adversary for the Capaldi Doctor.  Just as long as he’s not down the John Simm route! Not that Simm wasn’t entertaining in his own way, but up against a cooler, steelier Doctor than Tennant’s I think the character would need a much less bouncing-about manic approach to appear as any kind of genuine threat.

    And I agree – nobody has ever equalled Delgado in the role for me.

    If he wasn’t a bit out of the equation now, I might have suggested John Hurt as an actor with the presence to do the job!

    I’m also not at all convinced the Time Lords would be moved by Clara’s appeal, impassioned as it was.  They’re much more likely to have been motived by self-interest (which would imply the do need somebody on the right side of the crack to help get them back through) than any form of altruism.  I’m leaning toward the theory that when/if they do make it back they might  make the Doctor wish he’d just left the beggars where they were – out of trouble!

    #24309
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave – Agreed, John Simm was a bit OTT at times but, as @nick pointed out, he wanted to play the role differently to RTD’s vision. There were some moments in TEoT where I think he got to play it his way though, namely in the quieter, one to one moments he had with David Tennant.

    It’s a shame that The Master left Gallifrey before the end of the Time War as I’d really love to see Derek Jacobi back in the role. Failing that, David Warner is always superb as a baddie (he’s always superb regardless of role TBH). Jim Carter (Mr Carson in Downton Abbey) would also be one of my choices. His ‘baddies’ always send a shiver down my spine.

    #24310
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @blenkinsopthebrave   I absolutely agree that the time lords would not have been moved by Clara’s speech. That’s why I feel so uneasy about the fact that the storyline seems to suggest it. I think they would either have done it because they wanted to, or because they needed to, but not because Clara persuaded them to.

    Here’s a thought: What if a group of rebels got together to share regeneration energy with the Doctor, without the knowledge of the High Council? This could tie in to the ideas people had about potential civil unrest on Gallifrey.

    And yes… I myself have resolved to try to be more fictional in 2014. I can see the potential now… “Mom, can I have some food?” “Can’t help you, Son, I’m only fictional.”

     

    #24311
    Arbutus @arbutus

    @nick  Well, I think that the cracks are probably the same cracks. They just don’t crack all the way through now, having been superglued back together. But they are the places that could crack again, given the right circumstances. Like fixing a broken teacup.

    But now that brings up another thought: if they were the places where the universe was leaking, and are now mended, what will happen if they break again, if the time lords come through?

     

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