The Time of The Doctor
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Kharis 8 years, 6 months ago.
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14 January 2014 at 20:14 #24312
Lots of excellent suggestions here for the role of the Master! I agree with @fatmaninabox that Simm’s Master worked for me in the “character” moments with Tennant, when we got to see the tragedy rather than just the insanity. I also liked him in his very last scene, when he was furious with the time lords and showed it, and made the choice of taking them down and saving the Doctor.
I would just love to see a Doctor/Master relationship with a little more of that balance: mutual respect, even affection, and amorality rather than pure evil, to keep the relationship believable.
14 January 2014 at 21:11 #24314LOL – we’re on the same page then. The difference I was trying to express, is what was on the other side back when they were created isn’t the same as it is now, whereas what I was picking up from the discussion was that the cracks are essentially the same thing as before. My impression is that they’re being reused in a different way than before (rather like the Silence were). [you can see is as either lazy or clever depending on your point of view]. We have to wait and see whether this is just superficial referencing or has a deeper meaning which will be revealed in series 8.
Just my opinion, but either theTtimelords are through on the other side already or will be as soon as there’s a decent story to use them in. They were needed to provide the new regeneration cycle, but I’m not sure how easy its going to be to use them again without some new idea now.
After Day of the Doctor, the show has added some nuance to the TimeLords as a narrative concept. There’s a new internal tension between the General (the War Leader), the “innocent” citizens and the President/High Council (back from End of Time) whereas AG Who had previously given us a more mono-themed Gallifrey fighting the TimeWar., which the Doctor had needed to eliminate by Genocide to save the wider universe. They’ve wisely given themselves more scope to do something interesting with in my opinion.
Nick
14 January 2014 at 23:49 #24315Anonymous @
@arbutus @nick @blenkinsopthebrave yes indeed this was what I was wondering regarding “what else might come through”. As Blenk (forgive the shortened name!) implied and @nick stated, a sneaky TL squeezing through would be a clever plot point -having them help collect all the forces in one place so he (or a she) could sneak through could be viable.
Also, I hadn’t thought that the Cracks had different capacities or polarities 🙂 So, before the Big Bang, the Cracks, were, as @arbutus stated, a void place which ditches my idea of the still partly weaponised Angels oozing out and looking half ‘dead’ on the fields of Trenzalore (ah, it was a field after all -a lovely village which implies sunny light but was, in fact, dark). Still, whilst a void, certain people returned after the Re-boot and others, like the Doctor, were remembered back. I’m assuming the clerics returned as well – River assures Amy that she’s just hopped out of the ship in The Time of Angels (so that happened too. Or..er.. did it happen after the Reboot?).
@blenkinsopthebrave -Charles Dance would be wonderful as The Master -but Bill Nighy, oh but my image of him playing guitar, whilst naked, in Love Actually would be tainted forever 🙂
I agree that Clara’s plea, whilst impassioned and sweet, wouldn’t be sufficient motivation for the TLs assistance. However in story telling land, wouldn’t it be nice if the TLs were grateful (or at least a few of them were ) to the Dr for ensuring they remained safe inside the cup-of-soup and not made mince meat instead by Dalek forces? This suggests that their reply to Clara would be “oh, well, why not, we kinda owe him and perhaps now he can owe us” -a much better proposition for the TLs .
They would like debt. Kindest, purofilion
15 January 2014 at 00:36 #24316Ah but but @purofilion the Timelords responding to Clara’s plea could be a dual case of rewarding the doctor for saving them and a case of enlightened self interest, especially if they need his help to break out of the pocket universe. Also a small part of me can’t help wondering if the timelords or rather the high council will declare him renegade again given that he did essentially thwart Rassilon it would be just like the ungrateful personages (not what I really want to say but I refuse to swear out of politeness) to do this as if memory seves me and I hope it does the only reason the Timelords caught him at the end of troughtons time was because he called them in when he found a situation he knew only they could sort, not sure of all the details as I was not really old enough at the time to watch and it’s one episode I never saw as a repeat.
15 January 2014 at 09:43 #24326Its interesting that if they went with a female actor for The Master, that this might delay the inevitable female Doctor.
Personally I’d be happy with either a female Master or female Doctor (‘casting blind’ I think is the term – ie if the actor fits, cast them), but if they happened during the same time it would smack of whichever came second as being because of the first casting working.
Not sure who I’d want as a female Master (and I think it would still be “Master” rather than “Mistress”). The usual candidates of Lyndsey Duncan/Dench/Mirren/Lumley etc etc are the first that spring to mind, but I think that there are lots of actresses that could do a stellar turn.
15 January 2014 at 17:34 #24334Hey first post and possibly the wrong thread… but how and ever…
Just on this ep and tying in with Let’s Kill Hitler, wondering about this and to a lesser extent the whole Lake Silencia story arc, there’s a comment when The Doctor has been poisoned and is talking to the voice interface/Amelia Pond, where he says something along the lines of “Basically, better regenerate, that’s what you’re saying…”
I know that this was written long before Day/Time of The Doctor, but I was curious has any explanation ever been thought of for why, when The Doctor knew he was on his last regeneration, he was thinking about trying to regenerate. Again, this is the same with Lake Silencia, sort of…
Moffat is usually pretty clear about how this sort of thing works out (even if he just makes it up to appease fans), so wondering if that was ever discussed or brought up 🙂
Cheers!
15 January 2014 at 21:18 #24336@haggis – I think the question for Let’s Kill Hitler would be: did the Doctor, at that point, realise that he was on his last regeneration?
Or was it the ‘regeneration disabled’ reply by the interface that made him later count it up on his fingers and go ‘oh, ah, right, drat!’
🙂
16 January 2014 at 05:03 #24338There has been a really big debate on how many regenerations The Doctor has total. In “Lets Kill Hitler” River Song gives the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations. That being, how many regenerations does an average Timelord have?
16 January 2014 at 12:15 #2434012 regenerations (13 lives) is the “standard rule” I think that’s unambiguous going back many references over many years. On the River point you make, surely it depends on whether River is a Time Lord or not (I think technically she’s not). If she isn’t then how can we know how many regenerations she actually had to spare ?
Either way to fit in with TofD, I think you have to assume that it took all of her remaining regenerations to “undo” the damage the poison did to the Doctor, unless there are some really clever alternative theories out there.
Nick
16 January 2014 at 12:49 #24341Interesting point on realising how many he had used…
But I’m not sure why he wouldn’t know… He knew that 10 had regenerated and kept his face and that “Captain Grumpy” counted even though he didn’t call himself The Doctor.
I’m not sure being the last of the Time Lords he wouldn’t be acutely aware of how close he was to his last regeneration/end of his life, but I grant you… could have been 🙂
16 January 2014 at 13:11 #24342I think he probably just lost count. You know how it is when you get to 1,000+, you’re hair starts to go grey and fall out, memory loss …. 😉
Nick
16 January 2014 at 13:40 #24344I think The Doctor was well aware of the fact he was on his last incarnation. However, his enemies wouldn’t be so certain.
Whenever there’s been a recap of all his faces (eg, the Cybermen’s info-stamp in ‘The Next Doctor’, The Atraxi’s database in ‘The Eleventh Hour’) none of them have included The War Doctor. It’s also highly unlikely that anyone, with the exception of the companions present in ‘Journey’s End’ (and any Daleks that survived) would know about the meta-crisis Doctor.
Given the amount of enemies that The Doctor’s accrued, the last thing he would ever do is make it known to any of them that he’s run out of regenerations.
Nick, I think you maybe right about River using her remaining regenerations to counteract the effects of the poison. If she’d simply ‘donated’ them, I’d have expected The Doctor to regenerate as soon as the transfusion was complete.
16 January 2014 at 13:59 #24346I wasn’t paying any attention when that episode was discussed and dissected, but I guess you have to think the Doctor was also counting on River to have some kind of change of heart or something else to come along (given he could probably remember meeting her at the Library where it was clear they would had some sort of relationship in the future).
I do rather think TotD rather messed up the whole regeneration limit thing to avoid Capaldi being 13, but I can’t remember anything which needs more than a simple explanation to fix off the top of my head [whether you find the explanations particularly plausible is a purely personal choice :)].
Cheers
Nick
16 January 2014 at 14:11 #24347When this is happening he’s in the TARDIS speaking to The TARDIS, on his own… So that scene had nothing to do with enemies or River Song…
@nick that’s a fair point. Being a spritely 649 I’m not sure I know 😉
16 January 2014 at 17:54 #24352So that scene had nothing to do with enemies or River Song…
That was a response to the post by @nick (#24340) hence the reason for beginning the sentence with ‘Nick’.
OK, to answer your question, here’s a really bonkers theory…
In The Impossible Astronaut, a Silent was present at Lake Silencio (the one Amy saw). Presumably it was there to make sure Astro-River went through with assassinating The Doctor. It’s therefore reasonable to assume that there was one lurking around in Let’s Kill Hitler for the same reason (they are everywhere or had you forgotten 😉 ).
Now, just because we didn’t see one, it doesn’t mean The Doctor didn’t and seeing as he was a bit preoccupied with dying, he probably didn’t think to mark himself. Even if he didn’t see any Silents, he’d probably suspect that they were around somewhere and so he still wouldn’t reveal he was on his last life, even when talking to himself (or to be accurate, the TARDIS/Little Amy voice interface).
I know, completely bonkers but that’s what we do here and it’s surprisingly good fun 🙂
17 January 2014 at 10:05 #24354Apologies, totally missed that @ tag.
On your theory, sure! Why not?! 🙂 It’s definitely up there with the crazy ones but crazy is good, it wouldn’t be Doctor Who without a few mad notions about.
Also definitely one of the more inventive, so kudos 🙂
I hadn’t wanted to kick off a regeneration debate because I know they are still a bit of a sticking point for a lot of people, but that one seemed to be a relatively untouched angle to come at without going near the 11/12/13 argument.
18 January 2014 at 01:36 #24362@arbutus, @nick, @blenkinsopthebrave, @devilishrobby, @fatmaninabox, @purofilion,
This is my bonkers theory about who is behind the crack in the universe. It involves timey-wimey business that is difficult for me to explain, but I will do my best. It helps to include the 2 time lines outlined by @bluesqueakpip to understand how it all fits. I will start by revealing my answer first, even though I fear most people will immediately exclaim that’s just craziness and read no further.
I think the Moment is behind the crack in TofD, and not the TLs. Here is my reasoning:
- Moment, Bad Wolf, Time Vortex are all same thing
- Papal Mainframe was wrong
- Moment wanted the answer to the question
- Moment had the power to give regeneration energy
I think the Moment and Bad Wolf are the same entity. In DotD, the Moment says that you know me as Bad Wolf in this form. I believe that pressing the Big Red Button is when the Moment is actually released becoming Bad Wolf, so this is where the two time line solution begins. On the timeline the Big Red Button is pressed, we know that the Moment was released before “The Parting of the Ways” episode occurred. I have read some complaints (about DotD) that we did not get to see what happens when the Big Red Button is pressed or how exactly the Moment works. But what if we did? In TPotW, I think we saw how the Moment worked. She waves her hand and scatters them, she also scattered the words Bad Wolf to lead herself there. I leave it up to better theorists than myself to explain how/where the Moment was linked with the TARDIS/Time Vortex etc., but I think it was possible somehow, even if she was just a stowaway. I like “stowaway” theory because maybe she was released again when the TARDIS exploded.
Tasha Lem and the Papal Mainframe could have been wrong. If the PM is a religious order, then we can assume that it is based on faith. Most of what was to happen at Trenzalore, was based on prophecy. So, when Tasha Lem said that the TLs were on the other side of the crack in TotD, it might have been their belief or interpretation of the prophecies, instead of fact.
The question will be asked, “Doctor Who?” The Moment could have wanted to know that answer as much as anyone. With the 2 time lines, there are two different answers to that question from the Moment’s perspective. The War Doctor or The Doctor. When Clara says “his name is the Doctor”, the words she spoke might not have been the important part of the answer. To explain what I mean, consider the episode The Doctor’s Wife. Communication with the TARDIS is telepathic, so when Clara was talking into the crack, she might have been thinking about all of the good things she has seen the Doctor do while she was inside his time stream. The TARDIS then knew that Eleven had become The Doctor (after DotD) and was no longer The War Doctor, so she gave him more regeneration energy.
Can the Moment give more regeneration energy? I think the answer is yes, and has always been yes. I think the TLs control access to the Time Vortex and who gets to look into it, but the Moment is the Time Vortex (or a close relative). Therefore she is the real source of regeneration energy. In addition to having the power to give “RE”, I think the Moment would be the only thing that could have given it. Because, on the time line when the “BRB” is pressed (thus, assuming all the TLs and Daleks were wiped out), then the Moment would be the only thing left there.
Well that’s my theory, all I can say is it almost makes sense to me. I think the Doctor’s future becomes easier to explain under this theory. The TLs don’t come through the crack because they are still inside the paintings and that is their only entrance into our universe. And if we continue on the Doctor’s time line where the Big Red Button never was pressed, then the cracks in the universe could be closed forever now (no more Bad Wolf).
18 January 2014 at 02:10 #24363Sorry, but I wrote TARDIS instead of Moment in third to last paragraph. It’s confusing enough without that mistake.
18 January 2014 at 04:33 #24365Blimey @barnable, that’s some theory 🙂
I got a bit of a headache reading it (don’t worry, It wasn’t your theory – I always get headaches where timey wimey stuff is concerned 😉 ) but now it’s gone, I’ll offer some thoughts.
but the Moment is the Time Vortex (or a close relative)
There doesn’t seem to be any evidence for that. However, ‘she’ may actually live in the Time Vortex in much the same way as ‘The Prophets’ in DS9 lived in the Bajoran Wormhole. When Rose looked into the Time Vortex, it enabled The Moment to transfer it’s consciousness into Rose, transforming her into Bad Wolf.
So, when Tasha Lem said that the TLs were on the other side of the crack in TotD, it might have been their belief or interpretation of the prophecies, instead of fact.
I agree with that. I’d go so far as to say The Doctor’s assumption that it was the TL’s behind the crack was also based on belief not fact. He believes/assumes it’s them because Handles said that Gallifrey was the source of the message but at no point did Handles say it definitely the TLs sending the message.
It’s been said elsewhere that the TLs wouldn’t help The Doctor unless doing so was of benefit to them. If the TL’s were behind the crack then, seeing as how they could communicate, there’s every chance that they could have eventually broken through with or without The Doctor’s help. The Stasis Cubes were created by the TLs so they must also have, or be able to create, the technology to release themselves.
The Moment, on the other hand, would help The Doctor unconditionally. It’s a conscious being and also has a conscience. Oh, and it’s physical form (the bomb) happens to be on Gallifrey! Whether it has the power to grant further regenerations is another matter entirely.
18 January 2014 at 05:48 #24366Thank you @fatmaninabox 🙂 , I’m amazed someone actually managed to read it.
The Moment may actually live in the Time Vortex in much the same way as ‘ The Prophets’ in DS9 lived in the Bajoran Wormhole.
That’s a perfect explaination (Moffat does admit to nicking stuff from other places). I am officially throwing my stowaway theory overboard. I am a huge DS9 fan and never thought of that.
Whether it has the power to grant further regenerations is another matter entirely.
I agree. Absolutely no proof of that. I am just making a PM leap of faith on that one. Based on it looking so similar to regeneration energy when it flows in and out of the TARDIS and Rose (but that is pretty weak evidence). But, that the Moment is so powerful (making Jack Harkniss live forever), it seems possible.
18 January 2014 at 10:49 #24370Wow @barnable amazing theory. So the cracks are the Moment in your opinion? But the void in the early episodes sucked life energy out of people and things: in Flesh and Stone, the Weeping Angels were sucked into that crack as were the poor clerics: so if The Moment has a conscience and is moral (and not amoral) then reducing people to non-existence doesn’t fit with her MO, so to speak? Also, if the Moment is the real source of regen energy, then you could say that the Doctor (whilst still cooking) could have the same yellowish eyes as Rose/interface of Moment/Bad Wolf. And yet the Doctor tends to blow out patterns and bright bits of golden flow – his eyes are not yellowish.
With respect to the BRB being pressed and therefore ‘the Moment being the only thing left there’, are you saying that that is how the future Doctors obtain their regeneration/power? Through the Moment? I assumed that the Doctor “had what he always had which was [me]”. Idris explained that she was the giver of the power to the TARDIS and regen energy came from both her, and the DNA of the TL even if there was only one TL left in the universe.
However, the idea that part of the time vortex was used to create this weapon is very plausible as you would use materials freely available to create weapons for defence and offense.
Kindest, purofilion
18 January 2014 at 12:53 #24371Right @barnable i love your theory but could i take an aspect even further you theorised that the moment is the time vortex , well we do know there are beings supposedly more powerful and older than the TL`s namely I’m referring to pre time war DW in the respect to the black and white guardians. Also there are theories out there that propose that time is actually organic and not essentially linear, (oh my quantum mechanics makes my head ache) so your original supposition that the moment/badwolf/time vortex are one being may not be that far fetched especially if they are in fact like the black and white guardians which were i think supposed to be the physical embodiment of good and evil, so why not a physical embodiment of time in which case it would most probably have the power/ability to grant the doctor a new regeneration cycle because in a way its resetting the doctors time. And given the doctors apparent services to these universal beings perhaps they felt him deserving of a reward( OK maybe not the black guardian but others might lol). And yes there are probably massive holes in this extension of the theory and i welcome any one that can help correct this or even come up with a proof that can disprove this theory.
18 January 2014 at 12:54 #24372@barnable – great theory!
Can I just drop in for a moment to correct a misapprehension?
Tasha Lem and the Papal Mainframe could have been wrong. If the PM is a religious order, then we can assume that it is based on faith.
Perfectly reasonable assumption – in fact, you’re making a faith-based assumption right there. 😀
There’s a propaganda-like statement going the rounds at the moment: ‘faith is belief in something for which there is no evidence’.
In fact, faith is belief in something for which there is insufficient evidence.
The reason I’m going into this, Barnable, is that you follow up your statement by bringing in prophecies you don’t need. We all already know the one prophecy there is – which may only be a prophecy from the Doctor’s point of view. Silence must fall when the Question is asked.
As @fatmaninabox points out, both the Doctor and the Papal Mainframe are making decisions based on belief. Which is perfectly normal; people do that all the time. Actually, the Doctor’s belief is based on shakier evidence than the Papal Mainframe’s…
Right. The evidence chain is as follows.
- There is a message being sent from the other side of the crack.
- The message has markers that identify it as being sent from Gallifrey.
- The Time Lords lived on Gallifrey.
- The Time Lords had the knowledge and technology to be able to send a message through space and time.
- The message was translated by the Doctor, a Time Lord.
- The message asks something that is presumably only known to Time Lords.
Therefore, the message is from the Time Lords. Oh, crap!
For the Doctor, you’d need to add that he knows that at least one item of TL tech developed self-awareness – so he has an alternative theory available. Two, in fact. It might be River behind the cracks 😈
Which is why I say that the Papal Mainframe are making their decisions based on less shaky evidence than the Doctor. They don’t know the Moment exists, and they don’t know that River knows the Doctor’s Gallifreyan name. From their point of view, there’s really only one theory possible based on the evidence they’ve got: it’s the Time Lords.
[But if anyone wants to argue about faith and ‘no evidence’ versus ‘insufficient evidence’, I’d suggest that the pub might be more suitable. :twisted:]
18 January 2014 at 13:01 #24373@bluesqueakpip another peice of datum for your list : the doctor had to use the galifeyan presidential seal to decode the message
18 January 2014 at 13:04 #24374@devilishrobby – good point. I did know, but left it out because I wasn’t sure the Papal Mainframe knew that.
Anyone have any idea if they did? Or was that just part of the Doctor’s evidence chain?
18 January 2014 at 16:07 #24375As other others have commented, that is some theory!
While I am attracted to the way it hangs together, I have a lingering hesitiation, based on one thing–the way Moffat writes. I tend to think Moffat references himself first and foremost. While he may draw on the ideas of other writers, he tends, I think to use those ideas to his own ends first, and is less concenred with respecting the original intentions of previous writers. This is what I think he does with The Moment, Bad Wolf and even with the Time War itself. As for the crack in the universe, well, this is Moffat’s own and I tend to think everything else is subservient to that.
As I read your theory, it involves incorporating the ideas of other, pre-Moffat, writers into an explanation of how the crack in the universe operates. I just do not get the sense that this is the way Moffat thinks.
Yes, I need to be more specific, and I have inchoate thoughts on how the Weeping Angels and Rory (on different occasions) are sucked into the crack and cease to exist, and on how the representation of the Papal Mainframe and the clerics changes over time, but the cold means my brain is not firing on all cylinders yet. Perhaps after some mulled wine in front of the fire I will be back with more coherent thoughts.
But most of all, @barnable, it is brilliant to see some hard-core bonkers theorising back on the board!
18 January 2014 at 16:10 #24376OOOH! Great discussion.
Nicely bonkers theory @barnable @fatmaninabox
However, I think it makes it just too complicated (yeah, I know!) to bring in the Moment like that, tho anything’s possible.
When the cracks first appeared, the Doctor explained them as being like (wrong) folds in the fabric of space and time, which meant that 2 places in space and time that should never actually touch, were touching. so does it not make sense that if there is a new crack in TotD that there are now 2 different “places” touching. ie in Eleventh Hour and series 5, people disappeared into non existence because it was a place of non-existence that was touching Doctor/Amy/Rory/our timeline. In TotD it’s the bit of the universe/another universe (which contains Gallifrey) which is touching “our” timeline. ie it’s a different fold from series 5.
I see the Moment as tech which is probably developed from the same tech concept that produced the TARDIS. And we know how bonkers the TARDIS’s concept of time/space and linear chronology is – “all of time and space happening at once”. So the Moment sees all of now, past and possible futures as “now”. And wants to steer the Doctor to choose the path that causes least devastation.
It’s also established, in show, that Time Lords can grant additional regenerations (the Master) so although the extra regenerations could be down to the Moment (who knows?) there is already a solution established within canon.
Re River giving additional regenerations in LKH, I agree with those above saying those regenerations were all needed to counteract the poison. We also have no idea how many regenerations River had in total. There’s no reason to presume it was a full standard issue 12. She’s not a typical Time Lord!
That phrase “regeneration is disabled” (LKH) takes on a whole new resonance in retrospect. I tend to agree with @bluesqueakpip that up till then he wasn’t thinking he was near the limit – WarDoctor was blocked in his mind, and he was probably the same as the rest of us, in thinking 10’s sneaky one didn’t count. “Disabled” also suggests something that can be enabled again, rather than something that’s a biological necessity.
18 January 2014 at 16:14 #24377I think the seal is the Doctor’s evidence. He uses it out of sight of anyone. Tasha Lem and co only know that he’s succeeded in decoding (because it’s now broadcasting loud and clear), not how he did it.
That the seal breaks the code also clearly suggests to me that it is Time Lords behind the crack rather than the Moment, tho I suppose you could argue that the Moment could have set it up so that the seal (which she would know to be in the doctor’s possession) was the thing to break the signal.
18 January 2014 at 16:15 #24378What perfect timing! You have provided the coherent thoughts (to the same end I was hinting at) that I was lacking. I can now concentrate on the mulled wine front and centre!
18 January 2014 at 16:18 #24379@phaseshift @fatmaninabox @jimthefish @craig
Can one of you please (pretty pretty please!) edit my post #24376?
The 4th para (1st big one) end of line 1 – fabric of face (and time) should be fabric of space
Much appreciated 😀
Doh! <facepalm> etc etc
18 January 2014 at 16:22 #24380Good to see you too (and thanks for liking my long-winded post). Am afraid my attendance record on here recently has been abysmal. And I second your warm welcome back to bonkerising. (It was you who proposed the verb to bonker if I remember right!)
I’ll raise a glass of sauvignon to your mulled wine
<clink>
Cheers
Stay warm
18 January 2014 at 16:47 #24384@scaryb — fixed now…..
18 January 2014 at 16:57 #2438618 January 2014 at 18:03 #24395Just to throw something into the ring: could Clara be a creation of the Moment?
Clara, it’s strongly hinted, is an example of a stable time loop. She herself caused the leaf to blow into her Dad’s face so that her Dad met her Mum. But isn’t that exactly the sort of time-manipulation the Moment does? She doesn’t want the Doctor to burn Gallifey; she can’t stop him by herself – so creates a person who can ‘save the Doctor’.
Incidentally, we all seem to be reverting to treating the Time Lords as one monolithic group, despite considerable evidence in Day of The Doctor that there are at least two major factions (possibly three, if the ‘non Time Lords’ start getting seriously annoyed with their ‘betters’) – who definitely have entirely different ideas on how to handle the Time War.
Why can’t they have entirely different ideas on how to handle the Doctor? 😉
18 January 2014 at 19:35 #24398@bluesqueakpip – Point taken. I apologize and meant no offence. That was bad form on my part to say “Absolutely no evidence” and then immediately follow by giving some evidence. I should have said “insufficient evidence” which is much better. Opening a discussion on religion was never my intention, I only wanted to distinguish faith from fact (which is not always easy to do).
@Devilishrobby – WHAT?! Organic Time! Oh no! <Head Explodes!> 🙂 Great idea but way beyond what I was thinking at the time (not anymore thanks to you). Though, you did raise a concept closer to what I was thinking: The TL’s technology allows them to tap into and use different parts of the Time Vortex, similar to the way “atomic power” is used in our world. If used in a good way it becomes an incredible source of energy, but if used another way it becomes a massively destructive force. The “controllers of the technology” pick the way to use the power, but don’t really generate it from themselves.
WARNING: Read at your own risk. Head Explode-ey is most likely result.
Devilishrobby’s theory of Organic Time (again <Head Explodes>) could help me explain the way the Time Vortex is used. Organisms have many organs which perform different functions for the whole. So if that is true for Organic Time, then you could pick out which organ or function you wanted from it. The Time Vortex could be made up of different organs (The Moment, TARDIS energy, regeneration energy, etc.). The Time Vortex could have a limitless supply of these organs to use, and the Time Lords are the surgeons who understand how to remove the one they want.
Well my head has exploded. Thanks to everyone for their posts, I am overwhelmed by the unexpected response. I hope to return with more replies to them after I glue my brain back together. 🙂
18 January 2014 at 19:54 #24399@barnable – no problem. I never thought you intended to offend. Given that the Papal Mainframe plays a fairly major role in Time of The Doctor, discussions and theories are quite likely to stray into the area of religion. 😉
18 January 2014 at 21:32 #24402@barnable Nicely complex theorizing. I had to re-read a couple of times as the brain is only just back online after a week’s worth of nasty cold. I’m not sure it entirely works for me, but a great place for people to bounce new ideas from!
I like @fatmaninabox‘s suggestion that the sentient part of the Moment might exist separately from the physical part, and only show up when someone is preparing to use it. Ditto @purofilion’s idea of the Moment being created from Time Vortex “material”, especially since we don’t really know in what way the Moment would carry out its destruction.
@bluesqueakpip I think that the Papal Mainframe would have made their deduction before the doctor got there. Therefore, the seal wouldn’t have come into it at that point. @scaryb and @blenkinsopthebrave have made the point before me, that the Doctor uses it as a translation tool. But like Tasha and Co., he has already deduced that the source of the message is the Time Lords.
@blenkinsopthebrave Having just spent a couple of hours in on a foggy, two-degree soccer field, the mulled wine sounds very tempting! It’s a little early for it here, but I believe that there is wine and cheese in my future. 🙂
18 January 2014 at 21:52 #24405@arbutus – I’d agree that the Papal Mainframe would probably have a strong suspicion. Given that Gallifrey vanishing had the same effect in the main time stream as Gallifrey being destroyed, they’d certainly want confirmation. Had Gallifrey survived after all?
Enter the Doctor. 😉
19 January 2014 at 00:45 #24418Hello again @Purofilion, yet another vigorous challenge 🙂 . You and @arbutus (and possibly @scaryb) agree with this part from you post.
The idea that part of the time vortex was used to create this weapon is very plausible as you would use materials freely available to create weapons for defense and offense.
That is the main idea I was trying to explain, that there are different parts of the Time Vortex for the TLs to use. So, if it is possible for them to use it to create a weapon, then they might use other pieces to create good things like TARDIS energy or Regeneration energy. I think that the Moment having consciousness is similar to the TARDIS having consciousness. They could have both come from the Time Vortex, but one is a weapon while the other is a motor.
Re: People falling into the cracks. I didn’t mean that the Moment was the cracks, it was only behind the crack (like the TLs could have been behind the crack) sending the message from Gallifrey. IMO, the way the cracks were created doesn’t change based on who is sending the message. I think the people who fell into the original cracks (from the TARDIS exploding) were lost, because “A Void – created by a paradox” was behind those cracks, where even the Time Vortex didn’t exist. But, the last crack at Trenzalore could be a weak spot in the universe (possibly remaining as a result of the first cracks), where Gallifrey and the Time Vortex exist on the other side.
My theory is that the TLs are not behind the Trenzalore crack because they were destroyed by the Moment/Bad Wolf or frozen in the Paintings (depending on the two time lines). So, I think Bad Wolf is the only one still left on Gallifrey, sending the message and more regeneration energy through the crack in the TotD episode.
The big question then becomes, does the Moment/Bad Wolf have the ability to give regenerations to the Doctor?
As @fatmaninabox pointed out, there is no evidence to suggest that it does.
@ScaryB – great post, thanks for the help, even though I know you don’t agree with the theory. 🙂
“It’s also established, in show, that Time Lords can grant additional regenerations (the Master) so although the extra regenerations could be down to the Moment (who knows?) there is already a solution established within canon.
I have seen River Song (give energy) and the Master (try to steal energy from Eight), so I definitely know the TLs are capable of giving energy too. But like you said that doesn’t mean that the Moment can’t also do it. Especially since River isn’t technically a TL and she did it.
I disagree that the Doctor knew for certain, that the TLs sent the message. I think all of the people brought to Trenzalore by the message, only knew for certain that it originated from Gallifrey. Which in that case it would be logical to assume, from their perspective, that the TLs sent it; but the possibility remains that someone else could send it.
@bluesqueakpip, @whisht, @devilishrobby
I must admit that the “Presidential Seal” the Doctor uses to translate the message, presents a problem to my theory. But I will accept @scaryb ‘s suggestion and “argue that the Moment could have set it up so that the seal (which she would know to be in the doctor’s possession) was the thing to break the signal”.
19 January 2014 at 01:34 #24419@barnable @bluesqueakpip @blenkinsopthebrave yes I liked that theory too. I also love the idea of Bluesqueakpip’s that Clara could be an element of The Moment. I recall mentioning that in early seasons and episodes like Flesh and Stone, the Cracks sucked people in (as it were) and ‘vanished’ them from existence. For The Moment to do this to the Weeping Angels is one thing but to Rory and to the Clerics who were acting to protect Amy, River and The Doctor, is another: the Crack as The Moment doesn’t just seem amoral but downright immoral in this light (forgive the pun). Also, as @scaryb stated, based on The Eleventh Hour, there are “two places [folds] which shouldn’t touch”. So it would seem, @Barnable, that The Moment is ‘playing’ the new crack in time? Hijacking the one ‘idea’ (original crack caused by TARDIS exploding by Madame Kovarian’s chapter) in order to ensure the Doctor survives or regenerates. In this way, The Moment is solidly trustworthy and helpful -where the TLs might not be.
According to @arbutus and @fatmaninabox the idea of The Moment always being around is significant. Her ‘body’ shows up when really needed but the rest of her lives, like the Time Vortex, across space and time and is popping in and out when the situation is critical and there’s nowhere else to go. If the Moment was stolen by Capt Grumpy and we saw it being used, at what point did it cease being needed? Did it help Smith’s Doctor at other times during the last season (beyond Clara’s role). How could it have been used during either the Rings of Akehaten and the Parasite God or during Hide, even?
Back to the Crack as The Moment…The Doctor saw it in his room in the Hotel…it was the thing he was most concerned about because it determined the end of his existence. I find it difficult to see it as The Moment at that point in the narrative. As I infer from @blenkinsopthebrave , would Moffat write about The Moment in this way? It seemed that this weapon was key to the thinking of the Anniversary Special and I think that in light of that episode, it had a beginning, middle and finally, and end, in that episode. If it turns out though, that Clara is part of The Moment’s creation, then….head exploding….I’m already going round and round anyway…. What else is The Moment involved in? In fact, The Moment as a weapon, has a singular use, does it not? If it keeps on going, well, it aint a ‘Moment’ no more.
I’m getting out of here…. 🙂
Kindest, purofilion
I’d like to bring up the idea of that Clock Tower in the Christmas Special. I recall Clara saying she was born behind one (or something of that nature). I’m still intrigued as to the Clock Tower’s references: it’s there to signal the end of The Doctor’s ‘time’; the movement to a different regeneration; it signals the highest place in the town of Christmas but also it has a ‘still’ reference’ to Clara’s comment about her birth, which, if she is a device of The Moment (and seemed to be involved at the Tower of London -being there at other times according to the photo we saw- and also throughout tDotD) could be conclusively referenced in the next season.
19 January 2014 at 01:46 #24420Hi @barnable it seemed you were posting and I was…& we crashed in space and time and overlapped 🙂 I understand your point better now re the Cracks: that The Moment wasn’t the Cracks, it was behind it. This means that someone/anyone can use (I said hijack in the previous post) the Crack to send a message or to create an action. In this respect, the message comes out from the Crack but what goes into it, is different or unavoidable. LOL void: un a void. Sorry, becoming hysterical from head melting/ crack. Need to re- read your last post but family want the laptop for ‘work’ not…sniff…play.
Kindest, purofilion ‘pur’ means fire and I’m burning up here.
19 January 2014 at 02:36 #24421@barnable and @arbutus @scaryb wouldn’t it be interesting if, somehow, The Doctor found himself on Gallifrey and delivered the regeneration energy to himself? He’s discovered the TLs position/location but is working (via Quantum Mechanics books) on releasing the TLs and himself from the Pocket Universe? Of course he doesn’t want to extend his life, but, in the past (that’s he’s looking at), he knows he does just that.
Actually, he’s using the regen energy from behind the Crack as a weapon to defeat the Daleks and other nasties who are going to destroy the town of Christmas which is wholly unacceptable to him. In the process, he ‘receives’ the regen energy. After all, here are two or more points in time which “fold” against each other, “were never meant to meet” and one TL -The Doctor- helps himself but only accidentally as the TLs (the High Council in this case) are not in favour of helping him as he’s responsible for cup-a souping them in the first instance. The other TLs & Gallifreyans are applauding the Doctor and doing all sorts of Hollywoodesque things to thank him for preventing the death of the children. He’s handing back the broken teddy bears.
19 January 2014 at 05:13 #24423@scaryb and @FatManInABox
I just finished watching the Doctor Who Movie (Eigth Doctor) and found some evidence for the Moment giving regeneration energy (not exact evidence but close). 🙂 The TARDIS uses regeneration energy (from the Eye of Harmony) to bring the two human companions back to life at the end of the movie. The TARDIS and the Moment are very similar entities. They are both sentient beings and under certain theories could both be linked to or come from the Time Vortex. So, I think that if the TARDIS can do it then the Moment can too.
I am pretty sure it is the only real evidence I will find to support the Bad Wolf theory, even though I know there is some debate about the movie being included in Doctor Who canon. But the eigth Doctor is included, which is good enough for me.
19 January 2014 at 05:59 #24424@Purofilion
It seemed you were posting and I was…& we crashed in space and time and overlapped 🙂
Yes we did, but it looks like we were closer to ageement than I thought. That is until your Eleventh Doctor theory showed up… <head explodes>. I do think your theory is possible, because it would be like using the Telselecta (sp?) which he did to escape death. It would definitely involve a lot of timey-wimey to pull off though 🙂 .
The good TLs faction is the other possible TotD solution that I like. Since it answers my biggest concern, which is, why would the TLs help the Doctor? It doesn’t seem like something they would do, unles like you propose, there is a new faction that want to help him. It would also open up interesting story lines if the Doctor should find himself back on Gallifrey. I do like that possibility a lot. 🙂
Re: Clara created by the Moment. As far as I know the Moment can do anything, since there is nothing to say that it can’t. I definitely think there is more to the “Clara blown in on a leaf” story to be learned. It also goes well with the Moment being involved in the TotD, so it seems possible to me. There is more evidence to support that Clara theory at the moment then any other.
19 January 2014 at 06:14 #24425@barnable ‘theory’? But it was so much more than that! I like it. I like the idea that the Doctor is behind the Crack, himself. In fact, he’s behind the Crack in the Hotel too -meaning that he was afraid of what/who was in the room. He’s always been afraid of himself; of running endlessly. But, yes @bluesqueakpip & her theory of Clara as The Moment has tremendous weight. Looking at what The Moment cannot do is the best way to study it, I think. In this case, there’s no reason to suppose that the Moment can’t be involved with Clara -or with ensuring she’s able to ‘jump in’ to the Dr’s timestream without being hurled about and spat out.
19 January 2014 at 09:13 #24429@purofilion – one of the children says that Clara has told stories that she was born behind the clock face of Big Ben.
Accounting, says Clara, for my acute sense of time.
It could simply be that she’s vaguely remembering that she’s a creation of the time-stream. Or, it could be that she’s somehow connected with the Time Lords and/or Time Lord technology. The Moment appears to be made of clockwork.
The clock-tower: the crack (whether it has Time Lords or the Moment behind it) is in the base of the clock-tower. The Doctor gets his new cycle on the clock-tower itself. Moffat’s been using clock-symbolism for Time-Lords a lot; I was suggesting that the new regeneration would be the movement onto a new cycle of the dial before the 50th. And lo, he has the regeneration happen as the clock strikes twelve. 😀
[Just to point out that our particular brand of insanity does sometimes coincide with the insane genius that is Steven Moffat. 😉 ]
Twelve midnight is also 00:00, which fits with the Eleventh Hour and my idea that the memory loss might last longer than just the first episode. The new regeneration cycle (which can’t be that easy to do when you’re trying to direct it through a crack into another universe) was a reset. I hope that watch fob the Smith Doctor wore was a memory back-up…
19 January 2014 at 09:22 #24430Ooh! Ooh! Ooh! I love all these ideas bouncing around! Lesser minds such as mine don’t have much to contribute, but I’m having such a great time reading all the posts. Thanks!! 🙂
19 January 2014 at 09:29 #24431Incidentally, I think the ‘new regeneration cycle at the 50th Anniversary Year’ was planned from when Moffat took over as producer. Steven Moffat’s referenced the additional faces in Brain of Morbius a few times; it’s clearly something he argued about as a young fan.
So I suspect that – if Christopher Eccleston had agreed to take part and had been the Time War Doctor – we’d have discovered that the First Doctor was the First Doctor. But not the first body our favourite Time Lord had inhabited.
But they had the ‘spare Doctor’ available to slot into the Time War ‘gap if either Eccleston or Tennant wasn’t able/willing to take part. In the event, that was what happened.
19 January 2014 at 11:26 #24434@purofilion @barnable @bluesqueakpip @blenkinsopthebrave @arbutus
Hi there. This makes interesting reading, but I’m not sure quite how you could make it work in practice. From what I saw in DotD, the Moment was a small box whose sentient AI system appeared to the potential user [Hurt Doctor] alone. I’m not quite how the best describe the how (but telepathically, figment inserted into his imagination etc sounds about right). This is quite a long way from somehow having or creating a Human physical form with an individual personality, we call Clara.
This doesn’t mean the Moment couldn’t step in an help Clara re time travel and creating time-loops etc, but it suggests to me that the theory have to be quite a lot more complex. Since the Moment is a weapon of mass destruction, just why would it choose to act to facilitate Clara or the Doctor ? What’s its motive ?
Nick
19 January 2014 at 11:46 #24435Very interesting idea in there I think.
Incidentally, I think the ‘new regeneration cycle at the 50th Anniversary Year’ was planned from when Moffat took over as producer. Steven Moffat’s referenced the additional faces in Brain of Morbius a few times; it’s clearly something he argued about as a young fan.
Could you not use the Brain of Morbius “faces” to argue that this is the Doctor’s second set of regeneration cycles and that he’s on his third life ? (my tongue is thoroughly in my cheek here as this is an outrageous idea 🙂 ).
Nick
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