The Winchester

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    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @dentautherdent what you have to remember about Love and Monsters is that the monster played by Peter Kay was the result of a competition run by the BBC run in UK Schools. If I  remember right part  of the competition was to submit a plot outline along with a ‘picture’ of the monster and as I remember the winner was a 10 year old.😝🤣😂😛 so no wonder the the monster was a bit naff.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @devilishrobby Yes I know that. The Absorbaloff was pretty naff, but – for a Doctor-lite episode – I found it quite absorbing. I mentioned it because I seem to recall it got a lot of flak as ‘worst ep.’

    Actually, I have another candidate for worst ep ever, Kill the Moon. On the one side, it broke every single rule of basic physics or mechanics it possibly could, starting with the Space Shuttle gliding(!) to a landing on the Moon and ending with the magic flying space dragon laying an egg as big as itself. And on the other, character, side, the Doctor buggers off and leaves it to Clara and Special Needs to (possibly) commit nuclear suicide because it’s ‘not his job to decide’ – since when? And even worse, it turns out that Special Needs naively childish anthropomorphic emotions were the ‘right’ choice. Ugh. The one bit of true-to-character was when Clara tore a huge strip off the Doctor at the end.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @dentarthurdent @devilishrobby

    I really like Love and Monsters. Even Moaning Myrtle’s (hinted) life as a paving slab. But then I happily defend doctor 6.

    CB wasn’t a great actor but he was given an impossible brief; Tom in that role (to judge from the occasional shouty moments from a decade before) would have been truly terrifying. And I doubt if you would ever have got him in that costume. The fault was clearly the showrunners: poor concept (JNT) badly executed (ES). But it was CB who got sacked.

    The Tsurunga Conundrum was poor. I thought most of the next season was worse but that may have been the cumulative awfulness getting to me.

    A truly bad episode can either have no redeeming features whatsoever or be damned by a complete misjudgment.

    Spyfall had the Noor Inayay Khan moment. Unforgivable.

    Twin Dilemma had the Doctor attacking Peri. I’m afraid to say criticism of that decision has (rightly) gained more traction over time. But the script was a dog. The production useless. The science really quite bad. Type 1a supernovae were a big thing a the time, though that required a binary system with a white dwarf. Dark Star however had put unstable planets in the frame so ES (presumably) went with that. The monsters (even Mestor) weren’t too bad. The show hadn’t obviously run out of money.

    Which was definitely the problem with Time Flight. Oh but it had Concorde! Cool! No. Monsters? Bits of foam. The story was abysmal and the script barked. The science was summed up by the statement ‘early Cretaceous I think. A bit chilly.’ I think. I ain’t gonna check.

    But worst of all was Anthony Ainley as Kalid. I mean WHAT??? Why? Obviously it was designed as a big reveal. Just ludicrously executed.

    Time and the Rani is supposed to be quite bad. I was so upset by Michael Grade that I never watched it.

    Non Zchib nu who? Kill the Moon. We’ve had this discussion.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u Well I remember Spyfall as being, on the whole, one of the better episodes of the series (not that the standard was very high). BUT I seem to remember cringing when Noor Inayat Khan was brought into it, I get uneasy when real people** are represented (and inevitably misrepresented) in fiction. And the other thing I disliked was when the Doctor dropped the Master in it by pointing out his dark complexion to the nazis. That makes her somehow complicit in racism. I don’t think Twelve would have done that.

    ** Real people who are recent history, I don’t really care about Julius Caesar or Mark Anthony or King Arthur.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    Spyfall… I confess I have issues with the Bond franchise. This doesn’t help me take the story seriously.

    Noor Inayat Khan… doh! I typoed her name! Sorry.

    If Zchib, or Moff, want to bring on Nazis for creative reasons, so be it. Better be done well tho. If they can advance the story with recent political or historical figures, that could work. Maybe contentious. Depends who.

    My problem with Spyfall isn’t just that Nora’s appearance seems horribly insensitive. As Clara is apt to point out: The Doctor knows.

    Had the Doctor said, “Do be careful with that radio transmitter girl,” that would be fine.

    If she said, “they will torture you so badly British Intelligence are still in denial even though they know the guards were sadists. And, when cross examined, the only witness to admit anything basically rolls his eyes and sniggers. But no one actually knows because you and all the others will die. SO GET OUT!” that would be better. It would mess up some fixed points in time I’m sure.

    13 didn’t actually say, “Oh, you’re a spy, that’s so cool. Bizarrely, I’m in a very bizarre, very incomprehensible story called Spyfall. You couldn’t make it up, could you? Bye!” But she might as well have done.

    Didn’t The Loon rock up in a Nazi uniform, the ijit? I suppose switching off his perception filter was a bit like shopping him to the Gestapo. The scene could even be a ‘coded’ admission of the ‘special treatment’ Nora received for being a person of colour but I’m not sure Zchib’s thought processes are that subtle. Anyway. Yes, pretty distasteful.

    I can’t say I’m going to rush to check this with a rewatch.

    On reflection, Who and Reich are not a good fit.

    winston @winston

    @dentarthurdent @ps1l0v3y0u The only thing I really remember about Skyfall is that one of the main characters had the same name as my mister which made me very happy. I was so happy every time they said his name, my own little Doctor Who connection. Maybe I should rewatch, there must have been more happening.

    Stay safe

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @winston Skyfall (James Bond) or Spyfall (Dr Who)? Think you meant Spyfall, but I’m guessing.
    I just watched No Time to Die, the last James Bond (so far). In which he did. Die, that is. Probably. But you know what these fictional characters are like, 007’s almost as bad as the Doctor for regenerating…
    No Time to Die is actually quite a good movie, as the James Bond franchise goes. The dilemma of finding out that he carries a virus specifically engineered to kill his girlfriend or his daughter (who he only just found out existed) if he ever so much as touches them is very moving. A bit like the Doctor’s dilemma in Hell Bent where he daren’t remember Clara. But unlike the Doctor, 007 has no Testimony to fix things for him. (Or does he? I guess the next movie will tell us).

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Well I thought I’d finally give Thirteen a chance. Selected episodes only. Gave the intro a miss (not fond of blue teeth boy). Started The Ghost Monument and what’s the first scene? – Whitdoc being annoying and nagging some guy about how he should pilot his own ship. As is well known the Doctor can barely pilot the Tardis, and suddenly s/he’s an absolute expert on some unknown make of spaceship? And she continues to be annoying and talk too much throughout the rest of the episode. Ryan the dweeb is sulking, Whitdoc is playing at the insufferable jolly-pep-talk girl guide troop leader in between nagging. The best character in the episode is the villain (the race organiser). Psychic floating strangling rags, really? Of course acetylene is inflammable, anything from 3 to 83% in air IIRC, which is an extraordinarily wide range, but I’ve never heard of an ‘acetylene field’.

    The alien planet is quite well done. The whole concept of the space race and the Tardis ‘ghost monument’ is good. Could’ve been quite a good episode with a bit of tidying up the script. Didn’t like the magic fairy grotto Tardis one bit.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    Some might say brave. Others foolish.

    I remember meeting a fellow whovian late in 2018 and we eventually, reluctantly turned to the problems of the new season.

    The overriding impressions were of slowness and incoherence. We identified the tiptoeing around The Lady Doctor issue (and so the unwelcome return of the crowded Tardis aka The Fam), the new crop of (inexperienced) writers, and Zchib’s own lacklustre scripts.

    We didn’t want to criticise Whitdoc; as with Colin Baker, it is difficult to interpret and kick back against bad creative decisions. But, in hindsight, maybe Whitdoc was one more bad decision.

    This is my recollection:

    Woman Who Fell to Earth: Slow, incoherent, a bit inconsequential really.

    Ghost Monument: a bit better but still incoherent. Quite like the murderous scarves myself.

    Rosa: Not really sure why they internalised the Emmett Till story with Ryan, and then failed to mention him. Why did the bus strike happen? People got angry, things started to change. But no! It was actually a bunch of Brits on a bus. A worthy attempt I suppose, but a bit worthy.

    Arachnids: the Fam slumming it at home. Wince. Inconsequential.

    Conundrum: WHAT? WHY? WHAT IS THAT? Could have been creepy. Instead a ridiculous waste of time.

    Demons: Better, but then the main device is a rehash of Testimony. Nothing to say about British colonialism?? Really?

    Kerblam: Finally something less inconsequential. Now, if the fallout had been the Butlerian Jihad, that  might have been half decent. “Hey Fam. I may be responsible for the Bene Gesserit and the Mentats!” Fatally slowed by The Fam, I think (please don’t make me rewatch it)

    The Witchfinders: could they really not find a retinue for James? Obviously a bit reminiscent of The Awakening. Missed the chance to make the Pendle Hill joke (etymologically it = hill hill hill) but occasionally amusing nonetheless; Zchib’s oeuvre generally being a laugh free zone.

    It Takes You Away: better. Nordic noir scifi. Novel. Perhaps they needed a Wallander style policeman to round it off? The talking frog is weird. Weird being better than Fam.

    Battle of Ea Stac Ton and Rehash of the Pepperpot: Sorry. I’d given up by then.


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u Well I skipped Woman who Fell to Earth this time round. I get uncomfortable when the interior of the Tardis goes up in flames for no apparent reason (as it did when Eleven arrived, also). But that was just a minor point. And cobbling up a Sonic Screwdriver with gas welding gear in a garage – seriously? The fact it looks like a Cybermen sex toy doesn’t help. Oh and the other thing, crashproof Doctors – Ten crashed through the roof of the building in The End of Time, and I was uncomfortable about that too.

    And one thing that I don’t think has been remarked on before, but what a strange coincidence that the new Doctor who happens to crash in Sheffield has a strong Yorkshire accent. I don’t think that’s happened before (like, previous Doctors have had accents, but so far as I recall it hasn’t been determined by which bit of Terra they happened to arrive on, or Twelve would be speaking Cockney).

    Ghost Monument we just mentioned.

    Rosa – the one Who ep I’ve never watched and probably won’t. Klutzy dweeb Ryan in Alabama doesn’t look like it’s going to be fun. If he doesn’t manage to get hinmself lynched – well, he must have showed a lot more situational awareness than I’d give him credit for.

    Arachnids – I actually quite liked Yaz’s family. I really couldn’t see why, later on, she spoke of them as if they were the family from hell. Maybe the plot demanded it. Anyway, the hypocrisy of shutting all the spiders away to suffocate slowly, then criticising Mr Not-actually-named-Trump for shooting the big one was not lost on me. Except – did he know where to shoot to kill a spider quickly, or did he just add some extra pain to its decease? What’s a spider’s nervous system like? My sympathies are all over the place on this one, mostly with the spiders. Might re-watch that.

    Tsuranga Conundrum – all I remember is a ludicrous ‘monster’ and some pregnant guy. I’ll skip that.

    Demons would have been quite a good ep of some other series. Most of the interest wasn’t with the Doctor or ‘fam’ (ugh!) and, as you say, it rehashed Testimony.

    Kerblamazon – I seem to remember the villain had worthy aims of social justice but terrorist methods, talk about mixed messages. And he convinced the company to See The Light and give its workers – well, about a quarter of the minimum they’d get in any European country. Also, the Doctor suddenly losing half her IQ and gushing over how thrilled she was to get a parcel.

    Witchfinders – mostly intriguing for the guy who played James camping it up, he was enjoying himself way too much. I’ll re-watch.

    It Takes You Away was actually quite good, and a bit spooky. Possibly the best of the season. Def re-watch.

    Battle of Ranskoor av Kolos (hey the title was the best thing about it) – huge build-up to the impregnable fortress which got defeated just like that, what a comedown. And Graham didn’t kill blue teeth boy which really cheesed me off, I can think of no justification for leaving such a nasty and dangerous specimen alive.

    dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars

    I tried watching a few of the 13th Doctor’s episodes. They really aren’t that great. We stopped at Conundrum because the episode was terrible. We skipped to the Power of The Doctor and it felt like I missed nothing at all. Oh, and thank God I didn’t watch Series 13. We all know how trash Series 13 was. They sort’ve explained the Master in TPOTD so it made a bit of sense, but it was a big mess.

    I’m skipping to the specials, and good thing it has better writers.

    dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars

    Also, is it true that George Lucas was a Whovian? Because Star Wars is very influenced by Doctor Who in some way.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u Oh, and you mentioned the Lady Doctor. I have no problems with a lady doctor, or a black one, it’s perfectly explained by regeneration. My practical problem is that I just can’t see any trace of Doctor-ishness in Whittaker’s portrayal. Also, “fam”. And “I’m the Doctor. Sorting out fair play throughout the universe.” Aaaaaarrrgh! Not even Capaldi could have got away with that uniquely bathetic line. And the ‘fam’ was too many. ‘Two’s company, three’s a crowd’ and all that. Even Rory and Danny were a bit superfluous, having three companions taking turns to speak a la Charlie’s Angels managed to undercut much of the dramatic tension.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    @dwnerdfrommars @dentarthurdent

    George Lucas a Whovian?? I had a friend who was an (American) Professor of Anthropology, a huge sci fi fan, and he confessed he didn’t get Who at all. Denis Waterman was famously dismissive. Perhaps he wanted write the them tune/sing the theme tune ala Little Britain.

    The most obvious parallel for Star Wars is Dune. Perhaps the Jedi = the Timelords: boring and a hindrance to the story. I loved The Harkonnens in David Lynch’s version. DW could mine that surely?

    There is no problem with whoever Doctor except perhaps 5 (the last crowded tardis era) & 6 where the show’s quality issues were revealed as a JNT/ES problem.

    Lady Doctor does have specific challenges. And Zchib resolutely refused to go there. And somehow Whitdoc ended up as a less effective Shona rather than ‘wonderful human being’ Bill, who was herself a rewrite of Shona.

    Rory was a good sympathetic companion and Danny an excellent antagonist; Micky was a cypher, Captain Jack hugely annoying. Three can work but the dynamic must be absolutely correct. Zchib also threw characters at Cold Earth and maybe 42?? Disposable characters are disposable I suppose.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @pa1l0v3y0u Yes Rory grew to be a useful character. Initially he was a bit of a spare wheel. But he did improve vastly with time (even if he was an Auton?)
    Danny always rather annoyed me, too intense, too controlling, too insecure. Absolutely the wrong boyfriend for a dominant character like Clara.

    Best incidental character I think was Liz 10 (Sophie Okonedo). (Actually, I would have loved to see her as the Doctor).

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @dwnerdfrommars I don’t entirely blame you skipping all of Thirteen’s episodes. However there were some that weren’t too bad. I think the best was the third from last special, Eve of the Daleks. The Power of the Doctor was also okay, as I recall.

    The special at the end of Season Chib 1 (aka Season 11), Resolution, was okay. As it happens it was the first Chib episode to feature a returning monster (Daleks) and also the first to use a DP, editor and director who had worked with Moffat, so says. Maybe this is why it seemed better to me?

    And Fugitive of the Judoon was okay, it featured a female Doctor (Ruth) who I liked. (At least partly because she was an improvement on Thirteen). And a villain who reminded me of Servalan (Blakes 7).

    I think Praxeus could’ve been good except it had an environmental message that was too heavy-handed for me (and I’m a raving Greenie!)

    And The Haunting of Villa Deodati was quite good, though it slandered Byron or maybe Shelley (I can’t recall which).

    Series 13 – um. Village of the Angels I seem to recall was okay, mostly because of the angels, and also because it was the only episode of 13 that I could make any sense of.

    And Eve of the Daleks and Power of the Doctor as previously mentioned.

    That’s not a lot, is it?

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    Samuel Anderson is a great actor. Obviously he was part of the ‘centenary soldier’ arc. I loved it when Danny identifies the Doctor as an officer. So yes he’s abrasive; he is an antagonist. Not everyone can be warm and fluffy. Rory is in some ways more Doctor-like than the Doctor; its a tribute to Arthur Darvill’s acting that he brought it off.

    I’m still scratching my head over the reappearance of the tardis key inimical volcanic landscape in Last Christmas. Were the events of Deep Water intended at some point to be all part of the Crab dream?? Is Danny out there still?

    janetteB @janetteb


    I agree with most of your summary of the episodes. I did like Demons of the Punjab in part because it reminded me of a novel which I studied in Post Colonial lit and like that novel I did not feel it needed to comment on the Raj. It was telling a different story. However it wasn’t really Dr Who. It was good but something else. It Takes You Away is probably my favourite episode in the series, despite the weird frog which lets it all down a bit.

    @dentarthurdent I also liked Yaz’s family. IT was a shame we never met them again. RTD would have kept them as recurring characters. So would Moffat. It was a missed opportunity. Hated every other aspect of the episode especially the spiders. (Australian.)

    Witchfinders was fun and I liked the use of shadow puppetry. It is also one of hte few episodes I remember from series 1 alone with Rosa, Punjab and it takes you.. The rest I have erased from memory. The stories were below par.

    Of the following series I think the only ones I would re watch would be Villa Diadati and the one with Jo only her TArdis being in the shape of a police box annoyed me because it stomps on established lore which is that it takes that shape after Doc1 steals it. A little continuity in Dr Who would not go amiss.

    @winston I hope the recovery is on track and you are able to make the most of the rest time.



    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @janetteb I like big spiders. Possibly because the only poisonous spiders we get here are small and quite rare. We used to have a few Avondale spiders (immigrant Australian huntsman spiders) in our garden but I haven’t seen one for decades, which saddens me. But anyway…

    The one with Jo Martin as Ruth Clayton (the Doctor) was Fugitive of the Judoon. Incidentally, strong reminiscences of Human Nature / Family of Blood though I guess it’s hard NOT to repeat previous story themes. I guess Ruth’s Tardis was made that way for the visual recognition by viewers and to hell with continuity.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    hmmm, ‘The Raj’… no I’m not prescribing sackcloth and ashes. My impression is that the generation who experienced partition, close at hand or from a distance, often use the word ‘betrayal’. Britain had been revealed as the emperor with no clothes; having created the idea of a political ‘India’ they could do nothing about Jinnah seceding. 2-3 million missing!!

    You don’t have to say much. A quick explanatory aside to Ryan would have done the job. “Ere granddad. What’s these peoples’ problem like?” Now that would have given granddad something interesting to say!

    The problem with (recent historicals) is not so much with providing ‘balance’ rather if you don’t even try, whatever nifty sci fi you spray over it ends up quite trite. Same issue with Rosa.

    I’m not sure I can manage a similar review of series 12. Villa had cracking dialogue and almost got to address ‘Lady Doctor’ issues. I should look at Fugitive again at some point. Yes, it would have been better if Ruth’s tardis had been the lighthouse. Or an American Diner. And I also wanted to know more about Lee.

    The Floox. I’m gonna have to watch it sometime.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u Umm yes, I thought the lighthouse was going to turn out to be Ruth’s Tardis. Can a Tardis disguise itself inside as well? I guess the writers wanted to have something to dig up. But an American Diner would have been too big to easily bury. But then, continuity-wise, an American Diner would have been just as ‘wrong’ as a police box.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    Could you disguise the inside of a tardis? The Diner had a back room (presumably a kitchen???!) which was the tardis proper. Clara and Ashildr may have gone anywhere (apart from The Time War and Earth circa Chicxulub) and met anyone.

    In that a chameleon circuit is supposed to disguise a tardis, why bury it?

    Otherwise, could the buried tardis be the one post Doctor 2?? The Timelords said they would exile The Doctor to Earth with ‘the secret of the Tardis taken from you’ (buried?) and that’s certainly where Ruth is. Then The Division gets home from the pub and somehow The Doctor ends up back on earth again with a now thoroughly disabled tardis, just in time to fend off The Autons.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u Did Clara’s Tardis have a stuck chameleon circuit too? I know that last sight we had of it, was as the diner, but that may have been just director’s shorthand to make it clear to us which Tardis it was (or, in-universe, because it hadn’t landed somewhere else yet so the chameleon circuit hadn’t operated to reconfigure itself).

    Why bury it? Dunno, maybe the Vogons sorry Judoon could detect artron energy and earth masked it?

    I can’t really follow your last paragraph, I’m too hazy about oldWho.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    I just re-watched Arachnids in the UK. Actually, I found it – not bad. Liked Yaz’s family, and I found the Doctor a lot less grating than previous occasions, I must have got used to her over three series. I wrote a blurb about it over on the episode thread, found I’d written the previous two posts, so I just deleted all the repeated bits and left in the few different comments. Probably just picking the episodes I half-way liked has made me more tolerant.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    Clara/Ashildr’s tardis did indeed have a duff chameleon circuit. A Type 40 problem? Like Leyland fully detachable door handles? Or it’s the same tardis and sexyidris thought all those shakes and burgers would be bad for her figure.

    Last point… everyone assumes Ruth predates 1, just as everyone (now) assumes the faces we saw in Morbius were the Doctor’s and predate 1 too. But at the end of the War Games we don’t really see Troughton morph into Pertwee. There may be a brief hint of Troughton with white hair… not clear cut… perhaps the film transfer process. That was probably the final shot; Troughton rotating in a void… Jun 69. Pertwee was presumably on location in Sept 69 so you’d think he was cast in June or before.

    So, Troughton wizzes around and gets dizzy, next thing we know Pertwee staggers out of the tardis, presumably having had his mind wiped. Just because the Timelords had exiled him doesnt mean there wasn’t another regeneration, or a whole series of them in between. What do we know? 3 and Ruth were effectively on exile on earth; what if the sequence is different?

    1 had a good reason to disguise the tardis as a police box. He was in London. Not sure Ruth’s motivation to do the same is as convincing. But if you were forcibly stuck on earth (and chameleon arched perhaps?), you might want to bury a police box. Or someone might want to take it away.

    You say that’s laboured, I say it’s time travel.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u I get a bit hazy on Doctor history. Was it Chibs who screwed around with the backstory or did someone in oldWho suggest that there had been a Doctor(s) before One?

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    if you’re bored you can say so. It’s fine.

    Otherwise… in Name of the Doctor it’s obviously 1 who stole the tardis in it’s ‘death star elevator’ form but that’s Moff’s retcon.

    The existence of other Timelords and tardises is introduced in The Time Meddler (season 2) and expanded on with The War Games (season 6) when Timelord, the War Chief (who knows the Doctor and vice versa) offers as yet unnamed Gallifreyan tech to the race of The War Lord. 2 gets the Timelords to put things right and tries to do a runner but fails… he knows they’ll punish him and they exile him to Earth with ‘the secret of the tardis taken from you.’

    3 encounters the Master and eventually earns his freedom but, as 4, becomes an occasional Timelord odd job man. In due course he encounters Solon who is trying to construct a body for monomaniac timelord Morbius, killed trying to give his followers immortality via Karn’s elixir of life. 4 challenges the reanimated Morbius to some kind of mind wrestling during which we see the faces of Morbius and all 4 Doctors… And then MORE faces! This was a big deal at the time. But no-one knew if these were the Doctor or Morbyboy.

    In the next Season 4 goes to Gallifrey where the Master, who has run out of regenerations is trying to blag some more. This is where the 12 regenerations is identified. 5 also looks as if he will have to sacrifice his 8 remaining lives in Mawdryn Undead but is saved by the Blinovitch limitation bang when the Brigadier meets himself.

    The Cartmel penned career of 7 suggests that he is not just another Timelord, but by then 12 regenerations is becoming canon. He’s only half way through his regenerations, no panic.

    By the time of 11, what with The War Doctor and 10 regenerating as himself during The Stolen Earth, it appears he’s run out of road. But Clara steps into the  mexican standoff at Trenzalore, 11 absorbs some energy from The Crack and wipes out the pepper pots. Again.

    There is talk of another cycle of 12 regenerations at some point I think. And we already know Rassilon had been resurrected from somewhere. We don’t really know if Ainley’s incarnation of the Master was capable of regeneration (essentially by then he’s a vampire) or if it really comes before the Movie Master, Yana, Simm or Missy (again supposedly the last incarnation) or where Dhawan’s incarnation stands. Were The Timeless Children the thing that finally drove The Loon C-rrazy? Not that I’m very interested.

    Then we get Ruth, the Timeless Nippers and The Division. This must be the least coherent bit of story-telling Zchib has been guilty of. But Ruth’s appearance seems to indicate 1 was NOT first after all because we saw the other regenerations. Didn’t we?

    No. A hint of some white hair maybe on Troughton whizzing round at the end of Season 6. Or was something flaring? Season 7 Pertwee falls unconscious from the tardis. They may be wearing similar gear… but really the give away is that the interior of Ruth’s tardis is from 1960’s MFI, not a mezzanine or a flying buttress in sight. What we have here is a basic tardis like 1’s or 2’s. But not necessarily BEFORE 1 or 2.

    Except of course Zchib would also seem to be trashing Moff and the Clara Timeline (or Clara Post Diner Holiday) Tardis handover. So I’m probably just trying to explain an act of vandalism, and who the hell is interested in continuity anyway?

    Zchib is spelling out the 12 regenerations was always rubbish… at least for The Doctor. You tell me if he’s said anything specific about the faces shown in Brain of Morbius because, admit it, Holmes and Camfield aren’t about to appear on our screens as unknown Doctors.

    1 and 2 could very well be on the run from The Division too. Perhaps there was an anti Division Gallifreyan party who intercepted 2 and hid him on earth? As 3. Or Ruth? The War Games Timelords seem nice, just a bit pompous. The War Chief and Morbius, on the other hand look very Divisionesque.

    The only clue is the Tardis, which was clearly NOT always a policebox. So why is one buried in Newport?

    Someone said insane theories didn’t they? Sorry, I only do logic and history.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u

    Last word… Of course Moff apparently thought the ‘Morbius’ faces were Doctor pre 1, and defended that aspect of Timeless Children. Not sure what he thought of the rest. But that doesn’t mean to say 1 didn’t steal sexyidris or wasn’t the first to become The Doctor. That is IF Ruth was the regeneration forced after The War Games!

    Would a neural block have stopped 3 onewards from  remembering Ruth? Is that why the idea of the neural block was introduced?

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    @ps1l0v3y0u you’re are indeed right that the 12 regeneration rule was created as cannon in the Deadly Assassin but that particular bit of cannon was partially broken by the 5 Doctors special episode when it was hinted/stated that Timelords from the ancient times like Rassilon were potentially immortal obviously implying that sone Timelords could have endless regenerations. Now at that time there was no actual indication that the Doctor was anything other than a normal ‘modern’  Timelord with 12 regenerations, and I suppose the BBC at that time probably never dreamed that Who would ever reach a 13th Doctor ( oh how short sighted they were). @dentarthurdent During 7’s tenure and the advent of the Cartmel plan it was actually hinted that our dear Doctor was something other than a regular Timelord  perhaps even one of the ancients and it was with this in mind I  think Chibnall ran with the Timeless Child timeline. Also when it came time for the Who production team then had to get around the 12 regeneration rule in the Day of the Doctor they came up with the clunky fix of the Timelords sending him a new Regeneration cycle through a time rift. But with hindsight if the 12 regeneration rule was sacrosanct how could  the Timelords have done this remotely unless the potential for endless regenerations  was established so  in part Chibnal’s Timeless Child timeline then becomes more logical.

    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    cheers. I suspected the multi doc stories had more regeneration info. But I wasn’t about to trawl through them.

    Cartmel may indeed have inspired the Timeless Children, but he’s on record as hating it.

    Devilishrobby @devilishrobby

    I’m not surprised about that. I think Cartmel was aiming at the doctor actually being some kind of contemporary of Rassilon in the Who books published just after BG Who was cancelled there was some hint that the Doctor may have been  somthing to do with a Triumvirate of ancient  Timelords of Rassilon, Omega and someone referred the Trickster. I think it was supposed to be inferred that the Doctor was supposed to have been the Trickster maybe a bit like a Valiyard-esk version at that time.


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @ps1l0v3y0u @devilishrobby Whooo. This is all way over my head. 🙂 Yes I know I asked for it.

    I read it all with interest but I have to admit, the concentration required to properly comprehend it is absent at the moment. I was aware that there were some inconsistencies in Who chronology but, I assumed, nothing too ruinous – then Chibz arrived and kicked the table over. Put it this way – I can just about handle River’s chronology. Or Clara in the Doctor’s timeline. That’s about my level of comprehension. 🙂 The Flux (amongst other things) just leaves me baffled.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    Oooh, lots of interesting discussions going on here.

    Continuity in Dr Who…. mwuhuhuh. That way madness lies f’sure… and bonkers theories too 😀

    Can’t believe we’re (finally) on the cusp of Ncuti Doc’s debut proper.  Anyone going to join me for something suitably blue and liquid in here, while we wait for the Winchester’s rather ancient viewing scanner to fire up?

    A TARDIS-tini anyone?

    The TARDIS – TARDIS-tini | Doctor Who Cocktails

    Or a Sonic Screwdriver? 😉


    dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars

    Ok, what if literally everything after he first met The Toymaker, was all under The Toymaker’s control. Like how, the Daleks and Cybermen keep coming back and how The Doctor is told by The Master that everything she knew was a lie, or especially since The Toymaker revealed The Master is in his golden tooth, I mean, the same hand from when David Tennant was The Doctor appeared at the end of The Giggle.


    Coincidence? I think not. More like The Master lied to the Doctor.

    WhoHar @whohar


    For once, we here in Aus 🇦🇺  have a time advantage over the UK 🇬🇧 so I’ve likely watched Space Babies before all of you guys. I’ve already posted my thoughts on the ep page, so don’t go there before you watch (spoilers sweeties).

    Enjoy the drinks.

    ScaryB @scaryb

    @whohar  Cheers m’dear!

    WhoHar @whohar

    Not sure if this has been posted before, but here’s a link to a bunch of DW scripts 2005-2022.

    Not every ep script is there, but it makes interesting reading, certainly for a script nerd like myself

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @whohar Thanks for that, that’s a fantastic resource! (And in PDF format too, makes it very easy to download).

    As a complement, I’ll mention (though I’m sure you’re aware of) Chrissie’s transcripts at


    WhoHar @whohar


    Interesting (to me anyway) to see how the TV script formatting differs from movies.

    Chrissie’s transcripts at

    I didn’t know about those. Thanks.very much.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @whohar I’ve found Chrissie’s site an excellent resource.

    Also which has detailed episode synopses.

    Anyway, those scripts on the BBC are good to know about. At least 90% of ‘new’ Who is there. I think we may be lucky in that, for example New Tricks (which ran for nine? years) only has a couple of scripts up.

    All of Sherlock is there, too.


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    And while I’m at it, the writer interviews page is fascinating too:

    I just watched the interview with Moffat and amongst the snippets of information, apparently his two favourite episodes of anything he’s written are Blink and A Scandal in Belgravia (and they’re the ones I would have chosen so he must be right 🙂 and coincidentally, Wester Drumlins (the haunted house in Blink) was also Irene Adler’s house. It was also used in ‘Knock Knock’ – I think that house probably has more TV credits than many bit-part actors.

    Craig @craig

    I thought this was quite fun. An old interview from the 19th year of Doctor Who with Peter Davison and John Nathan-Turner on the BBC Archive YouTube Channel. It’s a great channel, you get all sorts of weird stuff from the past.

    WhoHar @whohar

    DW Finale (both parts) to be available for viewing in cinemas – UK only

    janetteB @janetteb

    @winston Hi. Have not seen any posts from you recently. Hope recovery is on track and you enjoying the enforced rest.



    winston @winston

    @janetteb    Thanks for asking and yes my recovery is on track but no I am not enjoying my rest as much as I should. My mister does his best but my garden looks a little scruffy and my hands itch to pull weeds and plant flowers. I definitely can’t get down that low.Seriously though , I had a six week check and I can now use a walker or crutches and I can remove my splint most of the time. Now I also start the long job of exercise to regain movement and strength in my knee so I can walk unaided again.  I hope to be walking by myself in time for fall.

    I have not watched any of the new series so I haven’t had anything to add to the conversation but it looks great and I can’t wait to watch it. I hope everything is good for you and yours.

    stay safe

    janetteB @janetteb

    @winston. Glad to hear that you are well on the way to full recovery. It can be frustrating and makes one really appreciate being in good health.I hope you can enjoy the garden again soon. We finally got rain today, after a worryingly dry autumn and so finally I can start planting. Due to our dry climate we plant in late autumn/early winter to catch the winter rains and let plants establish before the onslaught of summer. Last year we had a large peppercorn tree removed and now we are starting afresh in that half of the garden. Have planted a lemon and hoping to put in a plum tree in the next week or so.

    Onto Who news, you have some treats in store. Something to look forward to.



    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    @winston Good to hear you’re improving even though it’s a slow process, so long as it’s positive progress. I haven’t seen any of the new series either so I’ve been quiet for the last couple of weeks too. (I just ordered the three Tennant specials on DVD so I’ve got that to look forward to, probably after my upcoming trip to France/Italy and UK next month).

    @janetteb Lack of rain has not been our problem. We have a small lemon tree which is just starting to ripen now. It’ll be ripe in the middle of winter. Our vegetation is nuts.

    On my erratic spasmodic cruise through Season 11 I skipped Kerblamazon, thought I’d try The Witchfinders but I found that even Alan Cumming camping it up outrageously as King James didn’t really draw me in to the episode (partly due to doubts about how rural 17th-century Lancashire folk would have reacted to two black strangers – Ryan and Yaz – interrupting their proceedings. I don’t know the answer to that but I would have thought it would have called for comment, at least). So after ten minutes I gave up, and skipped to It Takes You Away.

    It Takes You Away is definitely the best ep of the season, despite its flaws. I wrote some lengthy comments on it but I see I already said very similar things a couple of years ago. I liked the atmosphere. Thought the whole world-between-worlds subplot with Gollum/’Ribbons’ and the unconvincing killer moths could just have been omitted. I found the Doctor’s ‘explanation’ of the conscious alternate Universe very long-winded and confusing, hence unconvincing, could have been simplified a lot, but got clearer as the episode developed. The ‘consciousness’ was rather touching, just wanting to be friends. I thought it distinctly sneaky of the Doctor to say ‘let them go, I’ll stay and be your friend’ and then pointing out why she couldn’t.

    I also had a sneaky thought that Graham should have stayed in La la land with ‘Grace’, along with Ryan – and why not, they already killed off the best character in the series, viz Grace, why not collect the full set? – then it would just be the Doctor and Yaz show, which seemed to work better in a later season. The episode raised an interesting question – if you ‘create’ a replica of a person, complete with all their thoughts and memories, how is it not the ‘real’ person?

    janetteB @janetteb

    @dentarthurdent. I too think that It Takes You Away is the best episode of the series, though it has more plot holes than a goth’s stockings. The setting and characters helped and I agree. The entire show would have been better if they had left Graham in the alternative reality with Grace.

    if you ‘create’ a replica of a person, complete with all their thoughts and memories, how is it not the ‘real’ person?

    Bill raises this question in Twice Upon a Time.



    ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u


    ‘IF you ‘create’ a replica of a person…’ as a Spartan might say.

    ‘ALL their thoughts and memories’? Well actually we used a bit of AI. All paid up. Just to give it that extra fizz. And the knowledge to turn on the cat filter. The kids think AI is so cool. Whereas actual oldies are just gonna embarrass themselves sooner or later.

    Graham being a case in point.

    winston @winston

    @dentarthurdent @janetteb @ps1l0v3y0u The 10th Doctor left the hand Doctor with Rose saying that he had his memories and thoughts and he certainly was a replica. Was he “the Doctor”?
    Dentarthurdent, have a great trip! It sounds exciting.Your lemon tree makes me envious,I can’t grow them here.
    Janette, good luck with your new fruit trees! Plum jam is so yummy.
    I started exercising my knee today and it is really cranky.We are not getting along well. Thank goodness for ice packs and hot water bottles,they are my best friends.
    Stay safe

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