The Winchester

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Oh yes, Bill did raise that. In one sense, our identity is linked with our memories – without them, are we really ‘us’? Clara felt the same way of course in Hell Bent. I thought it was a really nice gesture when Bill/Testimony restored the Doctor’s memories of Clara. And also, possibly the most memorable line in that episode belongs to the Doctor – “It isn’t an evil plan. I don’t know what to do when it isn’t an evil plan.”

@winston Umm, yes of course, the Ten at Bad Wolf Bay. My instinctive reaction (and Rose’s) was that it wasn’t the original – but on reflection, why not?
I will have a great trip, thanks. Our lemon tree was here when we bought the house so it’s at least 40 years old, I think it has two crops a year but that may just be our losing track of time and being surprised when it does it again. Good luck with the exercise, your knee will be a bit stiff to start with but hopefully it improves fast.

I think the show that did the most with a clone was Farscape, with two Crichtons (Ben Browder, the sheriff in A Town Called Mercy). In the episode ‘Eat Me’ (gotta love those Aussie titles 🙂 a villain was cloning people with an instant-copy machine so he could eat their brains – kinda typical Farscape 🙂 Anyway he cloned Crichton and the episode finished with one of those memorable vignettes that every series has from time to time, of the two Crichtons sitting at a table with their favourite gun between them, doggedly playing Rock Paper Scissors and coming up with a tie every time…
Anyway to complicate matters Crichton (both of him) was hopelessly in love with Aeryn Sun, and then the ‘original’ Crichton was heroically killed, and the ‘clone’ just couldn’t adjust to the fact that Aeryn loved the dead one. Anyone who thinks the Doctor’s companions have a challenging time of it should follow the crew of Moya.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. The Icelandic Tv series Katla explores similar territory. And of course there is Osgood who may or may not be her Zygon twin. (I have forgotten if we ever do find out.)

Cheers

Janette

 

[WhoHar @whohar]

For those that are interested in this sort of thing, link to ratings.

https://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/uk-doctor-who-ratings-2024-101452.htm

I think these are BBC only and include some data for people who watched on iPlayer and recorded the show. So UK streamed Disney are not included, I think. I don’t know the provenance either.

My 2c: it seems that the figures are a lagging indicator, and may highlight how well the previous ep was received. So Moffat’s ep suffered due to the poor reception to TDC, and then 73 yards gained audience due to the well-received Boom.

I did a couple of check, and the raw numbers are already being used to batter the show. Plus ca change….

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

So (in my now-spasmodic re-watch of Chibs’ era) I skipped the Battle of – thing, and went straight to the next ep, Resolution. Which is actually quite a good episode. I can (almost) forgive the Beeb for making me buy a one-off DVD then including it in Season 12 set.

The bit of mediaevalism at the start always helps to give an air of gravity and mystery. Though ‘Resolution’ is kind of a vague title, and invites confusion with e.g. Revolution of the Daleks. (In fact how many names like that could one conjure up – Revelation of the Daleks. Revenge of the Daleks. Retribution of the Daleks. Restitution of the Daleks. Constitution of the Daleks. Constipation of the… ooops, not that one. Dissolution of the Daleks. Irritation of the Daleks (what, and make them even angrier?) I must stop this. Termination of the Daleks…)

I’ll skip the points which (I find) I already made at great length a couple of years ago. Occupational hazard of playing catch-up, one keeps tripping over ones own trail. I just noticed a couple of odd geeky things though – why did Lin drive away from the roundabout *on the wrong side of the road*? And then she stops by the right-hand kerb and the police car stops behind her and the plod’s first words are ‘Do you know what speed you were doing, luv?’ – NO mention of driving on the wrong side. Just bad editing or what?

And, “It’s shooting out the cameras to stop us tracking it.” So all you gotta do is follow the trail of shot-up cameras? Not the smartest Dalek in history.

But anyway, it was quite watchable, specially since I fast-forwarded past the tedious bits of Ryan’s family values, but probably the best Doctor 13 episode up to that point.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Osgoods. I wish I could remember the exact sequence of Osgoods. We know she got ‘cloned’ (well, Zygoned) but then Missy killed one, I don’t think we ever found out which one. But did the survivor get Zygoned again, since there were supposed to be always two Osgoods – that I don’t know either.

[janetteB @janetteb]

@dentarthurdent. I had the feeling that Moffat no longer knew which was which. Revelation or whatever it is called is one of the better Chib era episodes I thought.

cheers

Janette

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Sad news tonight with the news of the passing of William Russell aka Ian Chesterton at the impressive age of 99.

It was lovely that he got to cameo in the Power of the Doctor as part of the Companions Support Group!

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2024/jun/04/william-russell-obituary

Popping in here to share, and raise a glass to him.

Cheers Ian/William. RIP

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@scaryb That is really sad news. He was wonderful in the early Hartnell episodes, and a wonderful companion in the context of the early 1960s. When I first started watching the show at the age of 12 when the show began I always felt he was the type of school teacher I wish I had.

RIP

[janetteB @janetteb]

@scaryb Thank you for sharing that news. Very sad. I am glad he made one last appearance but I feel that he deserved a better episode for that.  Yes I agree with @blenkinsopthebrave He would have been a lovely teacher. It must have thrilled him though to see Dr Who still going strong after all these years and he certainly played his part in creating that enduring legacy.

cheers

Janette.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

@janetteb Sad to hear of William Russell’s death. Apparently his appearance on The Power of the Doctor set a world record for longest gap between TV appearances (as, presumably the same-character-played-by-the-same-actor).

On a different tack, my 60th Anniversary specials DVDs arrived today. I had been intending to trot through the Chibs era (selected eps only!) to remind myself of the backstory before embarking on these, but I’m off overseas in a week so, so I’ll watch them now. I just watched The Star Beast and, as it turned out, I needn’t have worried, because so far as that episode goes the Chibz era might as well never have happened. My impressions of Star Beast were initially good, I liked all the actors and characters, but the monsters were too Disney and then the plot went all Disney too. I’ll reserve further judgement until I’ve watched the next couple of eps. (I posted my first-impression comments in the forum for TSB, now I’ll go and read what everyone else thought).

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Coming this Christmas!

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave Yes The entire household were shocked when I told them that Feathers McGraw is getting out of prison. Our boys grew up with Wallace and Gromit. We have Wallace and Gromit soft toys and numerous penguin toys so we are all quite excited by the news.

Cheers

Janette

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

Feathers McGraw rides again!!! Can’t wait 😀

[winston @winston]

@thane16  Hello to you too. I have not had a chance to watch this series yet so I am lurking or is that drinking, over here instead. The new Doctor looks exciting and I am looking forward to watching a new series with RTD back. I did watch the specials but not the Xmas episode so I am a bit behind.

Since I broke my leg I have been watching a bit of old Who and found I really like the 7th Doctor and Ace. I have watched a few episodes with most of the other Doctors and although I will never like them as much as new Who there are some pretty good stories and a few good baddies. They do fill my time and help with my Who knowledge.

I hope all is well with you and your family and that you are enjoying this new series and Doctor. I know Millie Gibson from Coronation Street and I think she will be great. I can’t wait but I have to.Until then I will be hanging around the pub.

stay safe

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Hi @winston Hope your leg is continuing to improve. I just watched the three specials too – on reflection I think the second one (Wild Blue Yonder) was far the best. Absolutely beautiful ship, stunning CGI that looked ‘real’, and what an awesome corridor (I can just imagine RTD saying ‘Running through corridors? I’ll give ’em corridors!’) And a really good puzzle that took up the whole episode with an entirely logical and well-plotted solution.
The third one (the Giggle) was, I think, pure ‘fan service’ – didn’t really do a lot for me. It was okay I guess.
And we hardly saw anything of Rose(2). After (I gather) a certain amount of hoop-la about a trans/non-binary/whatever-is-the-current-term character, she hardly featured. I just liked her as a really attractive girl, I would have liked to see her as a regular Companion. (Before someone shoots me, ‘attractive’ is not just looks, it’s personality too).

I liked the Seventh Doctor and Ace too (have only seen a few of their last episodes, on DVD, recently). McCoy and Sophie Aldred really did get on well on screen. Given a couple more seasons, maybe all the old grumpy men who complained bitterly about Rose and Ten getting romantically involved might have had something to grump about decades before 🙂

@janetteb The ep of which I spoke was just entitled ‘Resolution’ (the special that followed Chibz season 1). My sporadic watch-through was interrupted by the arrival of the three specials.

Anyway, I’m just about to go off on a 5-week trip to Europe (France, Italy, Switzerland, England) so I might go quiet for a while – depends on whether I have spare time (or wifi) wherever I am.

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent    My leg is healing thanks for asking. I have just started to take some steps with crutches  and to put some weight on it. I won’t be running any marathons soon but then I never ran any in the first case. As for my career as a knee model, probably over but I may have a funny walk now.

The specials were great but they need another watch before I comment too much. I mean the Doctor split into two and my mind was blown! Fun and crazy stuff.

I hope you have a wonderful holiday! You are visiting a lot of places and I hope you have a great time everywhere you go. Remember that if you don’t need a rest after your holiday you didn’t do it right. We will keep your place here warm, until you get back.

stay safe

[syzygy @thane16]

@winston it’s great to hear from you! Yes, we’re doing fine.

Sounds like your leg is very painful. At least you could watch some old Who, though: much of that beyond Tom Baker and some Peetwee I don’t remember but our boy watched all of the very first series & loved it. It’s very dark indeed.

Of the Specials I agree with @dentarthurdent that Wild Blue Yonder’s the best and eminently rewatchable. I think you’ll love it.

🥰 Puro.

[winston @winston]

To  my fellow Canadian Whovians and all other hockey fans , the Edmonton Oilers just won game 6 against the Florida Panthers 5 to 1. Go Oilers!  The winston house is very happy right now.After being behind 3 games to none they have won their last 3 games meaning they will play a 7th for the Stanley Cup!  Very exciting. It would make us very happy to see the Cup back in Canada. Wish them luck!

 

[winston @winston]

@thane16  Hello, its good to see you too. The leg is getting better everyday and like a toddler I am taking a few clumsy steps now but without a happy parent clapping and cheering me on although the mister does his best. There is a bit of Quasimodo in my gait but I am sure that will also improve.(I hope anyway) It has been an experience that has taught me to “let it go” and be at peace with it. Weeds in my flower beds, house a little messy, how did he hang the laundry that way? just take a deep breath and let it go. I also laugh at my own predicament a lot.

Who has been my constant companion these last couple of months, it can cheer me up, give me an excuse to cry and above all else it can distract me . I love Doctor Who.

Glad your family are all good and I hope life treats you all great.

stay safe

[syzygy @thane16]

@winston absolutely, laughter, music, the best medicine. And Who is so comforting and comfortable a lot of the time. As recent reviewers stated, it would be rubbish if the Doctor couldn’t reverse the evil he met. But I know what you mean… “how did he hang the laundry that way?”🤨

[winston @winston]

@thane16    The Doctor must always reverse the evil they meet ! It would be a pretty dismal show if the Doctor traveled through the universe doing nothing to help.The Doctor helps people ,even bad ones and even if it seems silly, sometimes “everybody lives” and I wait for those happy victories. The new Doctor looks like a man capable of running down corridors,acting silly(I like a little silly in my Doctor) and saving planets. Can’t wait.

Your pedantic friend wrote a great article.

take care

[nerys @nerys]

(Moving this reply from the BBC Approved Spoilers thread, since it’s an off-topic discussion.)

@winston I’m sorry you had to deal with the extreme heat. I’m glad it didn’t last. How is your leg doing? I hope your healing continues and you make a full recovery.

And, I’m sorry about the Oilers. It just didn’t go their way in that final game.

The move went OK, but we had to do it hastily. The timing was bad, as I’d just returned from two weeks away in Indiana visiting family and friends. As moves go, it was easier than most. We moved, literally, across the hall. So we never had to load a vehicle and drive our stuff someplace else. But even though it was a short distance, we still had to move everything from one place to the other. Basically we were asked to move in order to facilitate other things that needed to happen in the building. We weren’t forced to move, but I got the sense that we were expected to move, to make way for these other changes. So we did.

We were fortunate in that we had only a few days of heat and humidity. Now we’re back to more seasonal temperatures, and fortunately we’re getting some rain. May had turned quite dry, and I was worried that we were in for a repeat of last year’s horrific wildfires, or almost as bad, the severe drought of 2016. But with some much-needed rainfall occurring in the past couple of weeks, I think we’re OK.

I have seen plenty of spoilers because I can’t help but read what the good folks here have to say about all things Doctor Who. Maybe enough time will have passed, by the time I get to see the DVDs, that I will have forgotten all about it. I suppose that’s an advantage to waiting.

[winston @winston]

@nerys The leg is healing well and now the work is on the knee in order to get it bending like it used to. It is a painful, frustrating process that has to be done if I want to walk without a cane and hopefully without a permanent limp. I have never broken a bone or had surgery until now and I thought I would do a good job of it. I think with all the metal in my leg I now am a bionic Grandma. I wish I had a Tardis so I could back and stop myself from doing it because it really sucks.

I once helped my Dad move into the apt. right next to his , we still had to pack stuff and take things apart etc. but at least we didn’t have to use the elevator. We have a tiny house and we also try to keep our stuff to a minimum.That is why the library is such a great place.

Have a great day and enjoy the rain.

stay safe

[nerys @nerys]

@thane16 To follow up on the rest of my “avoidance of collecting more stuff” comment:

I’m taking a painting class and mostly coming up with more stuff that either has to go into a storage bin or in the garbage. So, while I like the process of painting, so far I’ve only been happy enough with one that I’m willing to hang it on a wall. Which means I’ll probably drop the painting class. *sigh*

@winston I’m glad that you’re healing, but sorry that you have had to go through this. I know what you mean about wishing for a time machine to enable us to go back and avert a life-changing event. Sadly life doesn’t give us those do-overs.

Currently I am wishing for a do-over on the last band concert I was able to perform in earlier this month (our director is retiring, and concert bands are few and far between in our area). I have been blaming my arthritic right hand for the problems I had during our concert. And it may well be the culprit. But, after having sent my clarinet off for repairs (third time now, to address the same problem), I’m wondering if these repairs might take care of it. However, I won’t know until I get my clarinet back from the shop.

[dwnerdfrommars @dwnerdfrommars]

Guys, I think I might know who Mrs. Flood is. I have a strong feeling, since its not Ruby Sunday, it has to be Clara. Why? Well, remember in Hell Bent? Yeah, that one scene, might be the plot point for Season 15. If my theory is wrong, she might end up being the Rani, or possibly a whole new character. But also consider this: River Song and Mrs Flood are both water related, but I doubt that she’s River Song. Maybe Rogue is secretly a recasted Jack Harkness. But here’s the thing, the whole season felt like a big teaser.

 

So, how did Sutekh manage to take Susan Triad as a thing in multiple worlds, and yet, she is just a normal person. Very, very, mysterious….

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@dwnerdfrommars

I think there could be a Clara connection to this milieu. I’m waiting for someone to open up an American Diner dahn the road.

But Mrs Flood seems to cockney rather than Lancashire… and she’s aged… Clare post Hell Bent cannot age. She might be wearing a shimmer, or something else might have disguised her. But, unless we’ve misunderstood the dialogue, she didn’t recognise the ‘Police Box’ Tardis either.

Key characters in this series seem to echo significant events in The Doctor’s life. So yes Rogue seems like Capn Jack. There’s a little girl somewhere called Splice. Finetime, ‘Homeworld’ and ‘Dot’ bear a faint resemblance (in my mind) to a digital Giant Library and its ‘Moon.’ Roger ap William, strangely, has medieval name (but then so does the leader of Plaid Cymry)… nonetheless I think the name is significant. I also worry about the Space Babies and the Doctor’s history with The Daleks.

Ruby, abandoned at the church, is a reminder to the Doctor that Tecteun found him. But who left him/her there? She may also be a mirror or echo. Is this the purpose of these ‘echoes’? Like a more subtle confession dial asking ‘Who?’ Or as Bill Potts had it, ‘What?’

Now, we know that The Doctor had a guardian angel who intervened when The Doctor was attacked  in The Name of The Doctor. Remember the odd face in Rogue’s scan of The Doctor? And you might say Carla is Ruby’s guardian. See what I did there?

There is also a missing incarnation, who supposedly postdates Doctor Twelve, though without accounting for Ruth, the War Doctor or the metacrisis Hand Doctor (and if we did it would take us to… 15. Wow! Fancy that!) This incarnation was heavily involved in tampering with the Matrix and general misrepresentation. I have speculated that this person may have something to do with the Vlinx. Also Harriet Arbinger was UNIT’s archivist and she took the lead in manipulating The Tardis when Sutekh was on the rampage.

The Harbinger was also the working title of a story from the late 80’s… part of the ‘Cartmel Masterplan’ which was gradually revealing The Doctor’s real importance.

Mrs Flood as River Song? River Song is trapped in The Great Library, but has something happened to the Library (see Dot and Bubble)? Perhaps The Library, as a receptical of truth, is a standing threat to someone trying to mislead The Doctor?

Or should we look at River’s timeline? We have no idea where she was between 1969 and about 2000 or before when, as a small girl (thirty years later), she becomes Amy and Rory’s best friend. But she might not have known that the tardis was disguised as a police box until she met Amy. She may have regenerated once or many times.

Also, Amy only met The Doctor very briefly as a child… so how did she develop her great life changing theory about the Doctor? Who told her?

What part of this milieu is real or not I don’t know.

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

Now don’t go shouting me down but I’m suddenly getting the bizarre  crazy bonkerising thought that Mrs flood is not a character we’ve met in the NuWho era but definitely Pre Gap  and no I’m not going to bang on for the old standard.  ‘ it’s the Rani’ but there is another pre gap “female” timelord we haven’t considered and in the televised form we last saw her in E-Space… is it possible she’s a Chamelon arc’d  twisted version of Romana. We know in theory at least, a Timelord can be nominally good but a regeneration can distill the worst characteristics which we have seen in the Doctors case has produced the Valeyard. So why not an evil Romana. Though thinking of the Valeyard and given in the post Zchib era of the timeless child and Bigeneration theres now no reason for him to have been a future life of the Doctor but one of the many past regenerations which has whilst typing this has led me to a second Bonkerising possibility that she is a female Valeyard. The only fly in the ointment so to speak for either of these candidates is the fact that they didn’t  recognise the Tardis from the outset unless Flood was either Chameleon Arc’d and like the master in his YANA personality didn’t remember the Doctors Police Box Tardis but they  had retained memory of Tardises in general. Yes that would have been a rather overly complicated but could fit the facts

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby

I hate Pre Gap hidden tracks. Impossible to rip.

I’m reasonably sure The Rani was Tecteun. Have you ever seen them in the same room together? If Rogue has really gone to another universe with The Birdies he might end in E space. Or in Cromer with Omega.

Lady lords are irrelevant anyway. In the words of Ray Davies, ‘girls will be boys and boys will be girls.’ But Gallifrey wasn’t invented until The Time Warrior in 1973 so Ray wrote something about Lola instead. All bets are off. The restrooms are unisex.

I also think Shirley snaffled the golden tooth. Not sure how it will end up in Max Capricorn’s gob though. As the ninth Doctor might have said: ‘lots of idiots have precious metal in their mouths.’

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@ps1l0v3y0u

Oh I likely likely your Tecteun/Ranni theory they both have that total scientific ethical/amoral disregard to life. As to my own bonkerising it is only my trying to get my head around who Mrs Flood may be if she’s a previous character of course she may be a totally new character but another comes to mind…. A chameleon Arc’d Rassilon since we’re on the asexual Gallifrey meme.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby

Yes, Rassilon (if that was he) ‘the president’, was last seen scarpering from Gallifrey during Hell Bent… one wonders why The Doctor is so certain about the TL genocide. The details are predictably hazy… my brain does not speak Zchib. Is the Doc just extremely anxious to avoid any others who are left?

So, I do need to check out Timeless Children and T’floox at some point. Could I get away with skimming the scripts?

At the moment I’m struggling with Silver Nemesis trying to nail down the Harbinger link. But Rassilon is rattling around in the background there too.

 

[Devilishrobby @devilishrobby]

@ps1l0v3y0u

TBH I’ve never had a major problem with the Timeless Child element of ZChib’s tenure as showrunner ,as I am a tv watching of child of the mid 70s,I just felt his treatment and use of JodieW as the Doctor was very poor. I always felt he turned her tenure into a bit of the soap of the week and the Flux season well that was as confusing as muddy water.

Given as I was avid adult fan during the so called  Cartmel plan era I had always felt that the show was headed towards a big reveal about the Doctors past at the time before it was cruelly cancelled. I felt that McoyDoc was returning us to a more Hartnell-esk mysterious Doctor, especially in stories such as Silver Nemesis , so as I said I never had a problem as to the timeless child element only in Zchib’s execution in its reveal. I know that RTD is reported that he wasn’t a big fan of the original “Cartmel Plan” and like many others was surprised when he announced that he wasn’t going to ignore or at least modify the events of the timeless child events, (though I can understand his reasoning because to ignore it was to ignore JW’s tenure as the Doctor and some of the ground breaking that her being the Doctor bought). I think we were all hoping that the RTD2 first season would be on a par with his original first season but in some respects that may have been too much to hope for.

Right think I’m beginning to ramble again as it’s been the busiest day I’ve had since I had my heart attack 6 weeks ago been out for most of the day with friends so I’ll leave it there.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@devilishrobby

I do hope you’re recovering!

The TTC followed a season I detested, so I really wasn’t in the mood for a load of exposition from Dharwan, never my favourite Loon anyway.

Exposition is a problem Who, where nothing ever ought to be as it seems. It ruined the end of the Family of Blood and most of Time of The Doctor. The End of Time, as a sort of seasonal ‘lesson’, was just about ok I suppose.

I had no problem with Ruth. Zchib has as much right to rationalise the regeneration mythos as anyone. The disposal of her sidekick rather appalled when you has learned who she was, but then Brendan was charmingly other. Then clunkety clunk clunk.

An army of Cybermen mooks is difficult anyway but there was so much desperate ‘supered’ pseudo-invention. It was as if it had been written by a 7 year old. In crayon. Using the Morbius faces clip is still problematic in that Ruth ain’t there and we’re never going to get a guest appearance from Holmes or Camfield. Ok they’re supposed to be Brendan not the Doctor but in that case why did they appear? Was Whitdoc’s shock and dismay just an act? This is whole knew world of fridge logic. I think people have been far too accepting.

And, yes, the script for JW was as unsympathetic as ever. I’m sure some of the creative choices (the board request you make it into a nice safe soap that will make Grade happy) were out of Zchib’s hands.

You could say TTC has reinvigorated the story, but the sequel was T’floox (oh dear looks like there’s nothing to do but destroy the Universe! Got to watch it sometime) so, no, I am unconvinced.

RTD2 would seem to be a fix it. And it’s obviously a tough gig.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

Just for all the Brits. I stuck this up in my window at the weekend. It’s quite a busy road. Hundreds of people and cars pass by every day.

Might make a difference. Don’t be apathetic. Every vote counts.

And the best tactical voting site I have found is https://stopthetories.vote/

Just put your postcode in.

Don’t you think they look tired?

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@craig

I am always utterly startled by the educated, switched on, independent people I meet, the last people you might think ‘oh yeah, you’re apathetic’, who then say to you: ‘bunch of wasters. I’m not voting.’ And then immediately, ‘don’t you agree?’ And you’re like rabbit in the headlights because it’s a social event and you don’t really want to jump on a soap box. Maybe these are actually people who have NEVER voted?? Why?

And there are tribal voters out there who are appalled by either side (that being their ‘tribe’) But are they actually going to switch?

Does this make them ‘idiots’ in the ancient Greek? It probably does. Of course the ERG and its ilk are quite prepared to throw mud the wall (and have the resources to do that) until they get what they want, and then… like Brexit… ‘oh, well it’s done now. Smell the caffeine! And we’ve fixed the courts, so tough.’

We’ve become too comfortable with liberal democracy. All you can do it is ask people not to ‘forget’ to vote, and hope for better standards in public office so they don’t then think they’re being taken for ‘idiots’.

But the people you vote for will still have to deal with the current system. You really don’t want to have to ‘change things by shooting men who arrange things’ (thank you Kevin Rowlands)… some people forget or have apparently never recognised that. Why?

Let’s not forget Farage thinks he can destroy the Tories. He could be right. I’m not saying save Rishi, and I ain’t voting Tory, but that ain’t good news.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@craig, @ps1l0v3y0u

I think the problem is three-fold:

The two (three) main parties do not have sufficient differentiators in their policies, noting that some are further to the right than others. And there is a deep mistrust of the mainstream politicians in particular.

People see a vote for a smaller party as a wasted vote.

The Vote:Seat ratio is variable and massively favours Labour and Cons.

The UK desperately needs PR, which will help a lot of the above. How that will come about, is a question I am unable to find a good answer for.

All that said, we have a form of PR here in Aus, and a lot of the same problems still exist. Encouragingly, at the last G.E (every three years here, and you are legally obliged to vote), a lot of independents won seats.

Good luck to you all.

 

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@craig, @ps1l0v3y0u, @whohar,

Voting is essential for a civilized society. I grew up in Australia, before moving to Canada late in life. As such, I grew up with compulsory voting and I have always been in favour of it, just as I am in favour of rules and expectations that we all are told to stop at traffic lights. Does it mean the most worthy party gets into power? Well, that depends on who you vote for. But what it does ensure (and compulsory voting has been part of Australian life for a hundred years) is that everyone abides by the umpire’s decision, unlike the United States. Of course, you could not transplant that into other societies, but I am grateful for growing up in a society that took it for granted.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @whohar @craig

You might not believe it but I find writing about politics quite nerve-wracking. You really don’t know what people think. Your friendly anglophile Democrat in voluntary exile down the road may well be quite Republican. They look exactly the same. Are you going to ask them?

The much vaunted ‘silent majority’… do they just want their bus services back or The Royal Navy to capsize migrant boats in the channel? Dunno. They’re silent. Maybe not so much now but then how many are bots or friends of The Fancy Bears?

Also you post and then wonder… how did that come over?

PR… I am in two minds. You WILL get coalition government. That didn’t sit well with the Lib Dems 10 years ago and maybe that was all down to Thick Nick. But with PR you will see more anger and outrage in the short term. And then, maybe, the mindset will change. Or Reform (the party) may become power brokers. The Tufton Street plotters will just change their tactics.

But, as happy as I will be for Labour to win, and Starmer has done an extraordinary job in four years… And, by the way. Hurrah! He is NOT a Charlatan. NOR a Buffoon! But talk of a record Labour majority (and it could be enormous) on the basis of 40% of the vote is ridiculous. Not counting chickens but it looks like that’s the way it will be.

Also… I do get nervous about the language used about changing the system and, what I mean there is, the official and unofficial organs of power through which the legislature works. Every country functions in its own way; changing it is like turning a container ship. Good luck changing Russia! But theoretically it could happen.

Could Liz Truss have actually changed things?? I say ‘could’, NOT ‘should’, or ‘ hmmm I would like.’ So, the economy crashes. She says she was stabbed in the back with a tofu knife by some woke literatti who jumped out of a taxi in Islington. We all get itchy fingers around Whitehall Mandarins but is talk of the ‘anti-growth coalition’ the first step towards finding a friendly Colonel to insert some lead in the undesirables? You see, not a fan myself…

I recommend ‘Ancient Worlds’ by Richards Miles… still on I Player… the roots of human political behaviour run deep. If you want to get a handle on civilisation, Hesiod, democracy and tyranny, that’s a good place to start.

And no tofu.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

@blenkinsopthebrave @whohar @ps1l0v3y0u

The description for this small virtual pub, this little corner of the site is:

“Somewhere for chat about news, politics, sport etc. Avoid if it’s not for you.”

No need to apologise for any talk about your political leanings.

All comments are welcome. If you are a Dalek, cool. Hopefully most of us are not. But no one is going to judge. If someone said they were a big fan of Boris Johnson I would treat it as if they said they were a big fan of the Abzorbaloff.

I mean, fine, but justify it. Just as I like the occasional troll to justify their “Doctor Who is rubbish now” comments.

Don’t worry about making a few political points here – that’s the point of this singular topic.

Regarding PR in the UK – better than Anarchy in the UK. We really need it. The south east controls the whole country. That is just wrong.

And PR can deliver coalitions that are weak, but the Scottish parliament was set up with a form of PR to try and stop the SNP from ever gaining overall power, and guess what happened, even under PR. People will out.

I hope for PR too. It’s really the only way we can keep the Tories out forever. Sorry if you are a rich, selfish scumbag.

https://stopthetories.vote/

Vote tomorrow.

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

Just to add to the politics chat. I don’t see a coalition in the offing and think it’s pretty certain that Starmer has got it in the bag. Here in Scotland, I’m not so sure. I’m hoping for an SNP resurgence or for them to at least see off the threat of the buffoons and time-servers in SLAB.

But really, I think the last word should go to 12.

[WhoHar @whohar]

@blenkinsopthebrave @jimthefish @ps1l0v3y0u

As my mother used to say

Never quote your parents

No, wait. It was

When you’re in the pub never talk religion or politics

But, she had Northern Irish heritage and we know how sensitive both those topics were in that region. The point being,  I think, that you are unlikely to change anyone’s mind on these topics.

I reckon a Venn diagram of Doctor Who fans and left wing politics would have quite the crossover. Although, how you define “left wing” would be subject to a long diatribe on my part.

But, in all seriousness, I hope the turnout is high and the engagement is good, and that the UK finally gets a government that works for the people rather than their own vested interests.

Looking in from the outside, the abuse of the UK by the Conservative government these last 14 years saddens me deeply.  Good luck.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@whohar @jimthefish @craig @blenkinsopthebrave

‘No religion or politics in Ulster pubs.’ Sounds like sound advice.

My political philosophy probably doesn’t bear writing down but it’s probably something along the lines of ‘if you poke someone long enough about religion or politics long enough, they’ll probably tell you to get lost.’ (That’s the expurgated version). Learned by experience.

Yes! May the turn out be high and we not have the Tories. Amen. At least one of those things should come to pass.

In name, the Tories are/were always a coalition between the One Nation and the frothing…. actually the City doesn’t like them anymore… nor the frothers they. What ARE they? I’m sure they will soon be Reform. I’m just saying that scenario sounds pretty bad, even though they won’t win.

PR? I was a big supporter a long time ago. Now I’m just a bit lukewarm. Look at National Rally. Look at Meloni. Look at Netanyahu clinging on.

There was a system with the big constituencies and multiple candidates that sounded cool. Choose the flavour of your tribe! But will people understand it? Will the party machines machines fix it anyway? It was never presented as an option… probably because of the comprehension issue.

To come back to experience, it is very difficult to get into other people’s heads. A simple discussion about the railways, and strikes, quickly becomes a question of, ‘do you know how much they’re paid?’

‘Have you never been bitten by a veal, man??’

No! What I mean is, ‘are they not worth it? Don’t you think they might know what they’re doing? Do you want to be in a train crash?’ This is what happened in the decade after privatisation. Don’t get me started on the water industry.

And some people will never vote. Not many, but not just a few either. I don’t know why. Their dad probably told them not to. I always listened to my dad. They’re self reliant. They belong to their community, not an airbrushed image on a screen. They’re contrarians, like (if not the same) as the vaccine sceptics and Putin supporters. And, actually, this is dangerous. I’m not sure PR alone will fix it.

That’s the challenge for whoever wins the election, but they’ll duck it. The Tories will say Labour were unaccountable. The Tories may remain irrelevant. This could be new ground and I feel unsteady.

Also, we have France. We have Meloni and Orban. We have the joys that November may bring. Happy days!

[winston @winston]

@ps1l0v3y0u  I always listened to my Dad also, he was very wise. He told me that I had a few powers to influence Canada and the world and the most important in a Democratic society was to vote. The other was where my money went and who profits from it but that is another topic. See, he was very wise.

I have friends and family that don’t always vote and a few who have never voted while I stopped to vote on the way home from the hospital with my newborn son. I can’t change their minds so I tell them that they can’t complain about the state of the country if they didn’t vote. I love complaining so I always vote.

@craig I hope the election gets a great turnout and that you rid yourselves of the Tories and  their austerity cuts.  They do look tired. Good luck!

stay safe

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@craig, @jimthefish, @ps1l0v3y0u, and everyone else on the forum from the UK,

I hope all goes well.

It just so happened that I was watching “Inferno” where the Pertwee Doctor is transported to an alternative fascist Britain. It seemed like science fiction back in the ’70s. I really hope tolerance wins the day tomorrow.

 

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @winston

Tolerance! Yes.

Not Primords

Bright and fine for most of England. Showers in Scotland.

[Craig @craig Emperor]

For all those not in the UK who are interested – and even for some who are in the UK but want to avoid traditional media, I can suggest two channels on YouTube.

A Different Bias will be covering the exit polls at 10pm UK time. He’s very good.

https://www.youtube.com/@ADifferentBias

And Politics Social will be livestreaming a party all night as the results come in.

https://www.youtube.com/@politicssocialuk

I’m going to be tired but hopefully very happy tomorrow.

[janetteB @janetteb]

Best Wishes. I have fingers crossed for the outcome for you all in the U.K. The world currently needs some good news.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@janetteb

Thanks!

Sorry, I made a meal of this. Democracy (and the alternative) is complicated. Of course. Richard Miles, ‘Ancient Worlds’: I recommend.

I still have my fingers crossed. It seems a shoo-in. ‘Why so tense, Potter?’

Fine day. Big turn-out, you hope.

Reminded of talk from my musical hero’s, as the sixties became seventies: the hairies vs the straights. We are all it seems (you don’t think it will happen to you, do you?) being called to account.

Tired but happy tomorrow? F@(k yeah!!

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

Many thanks  @whohar  @winston  @blenkinsopthebrave  @janetteb  for the good wishes.  The polling station for my area is only 15 minutes walk from where I live and is on my route into the city centre, so I voted on my way to do my weekly food shopping, Voting seemed pretty brisk for mid afternoon, with a steady stream of people coming in, but everything very well organised and no significant waiting to be checked and pick up ballot papers. According to what I have just read, there are signs elsewhere of a generally high turn-out, which is encouraging.

Little doubt as to the result in my constituency, Norwich South. It has been a persistent and valiant island of red in a sea of Tory blue for decades and it would take a seismic upheaval to unseat the incumbent, Clive Lewis. Norwich North, which has been Tory in recent years, will almost certainly revert to Labour, but what happens in the normally True Blue Tory rural hinterlands of Norfolk should be interesting.

I hope I manage to stay up long enough to witness at least a few ‘Portillo Moments’ even if I lack the stamina for an all-nighter watching the results come in, but I’ve bought a bottle of wine and a few nibbles for sustenance.

[Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent]

Hi @mudlark @janetteb and all

At the moment I’m sitting in a second-floor room in Finsbury Park.   Leaving tomorrow to pick up a car and head for Cornwall via Hastings.   Been too busy to even poke my head into the Winchester for the last couple of weeks, rambling round the Alps having sundry adventures and misadventures.   (At some point I might retail some of them including how I came to park my newish rental car in a narrow (but straight) bit of road, perfectly positioned in line with the white lines, just in the wrong lane and upside down.   And what hurts even more is, my photos of this fine piece of precision parking were on my cell phone which I lost in Paris.   Aargh!)

ANYWAY, several people in the last few days have asked me if I would vote for Corbyn to which I have replied, I’m from NZ so I don’t get a vote.   But it was striking how many young people were electioneering.

By the way, I really *like* Finsbury Park.   Multicultural and cosmopolitan and all that, little food shops everywhere.   And an Underground station within 100 yards and ATM’s all over the place.   And everyone is friendly and helpful.

And I spent hours in the Science Museum yesterday and went back today, geeking out.

Best of luck Mudlark.

[winston @winston]

@dentarthurdent   That sounds like quite the parking job! Too bad you lost your phone cause I would love to see that pic. I would gladly spend days in the Science Museum too. Your trip sounds like it is going great except for a few snags and Cornwall looks like a beautiful place.It always reminds me of Agatha Christie and Poirot. Am I envious? Too right I am. Keep having a good time and drop in to the pub now and then.

@janetteb   The world sure needs a victory now and then and at this point it is looking good.

stay safe

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