S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

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  • #9980
    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    Jenny could still be the Doctor’s daughter – if the Whispermen didn’t know she was a timelord, maybe they only stopped one heart, which is why she didn’t regenerate, and why she was able to be brought back after seeming to be ‘dead’ for a little while.

    It seems odd to me that we’d have two characters called Jenny just by chance.

    #9981
    thommck @thommck

    @davemorris316 That’s similar to what I was hoping. Mind you, the Sarah Jane Adventures had a character called Rani and that never amounted to anything but a coincidence.

    Speaking of SJA, it would be great if they feature in the 50th, Rani & Clyde were especially great characters and they are also still babysitting K9!

    #9982
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @wolfweed – Ah, now I see him!  Thank you for posting that!  He does rather blur by, doesn’t he.

    #9983
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @scaryb -So…the clip we thought was the Library, is actually the clip with 10.  Anyone know which ep that shot is from?

    (edit: um. I  have just revealed my lack of caffination.  Please carry on and ignore me for just a bit.)

    #9984
    ardaraith @ardaraith

    @thommck – I also noted the relationship dynamic between Vastra and Jenny this episode!  (please cover young readers eyes) I think they have a kinky relationship.

    Oops!  And I apologise for cluttering the board, instead of consolidating my responses!  Now, for elevenses.  🙂

    #9985
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    Stuck at home waiting for a repairman to come and fix something in my flat.  Oh well, I can pass the time here.  I’ve been rewatching some of the older episodes, ie Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead [@ardaraith presumably this is where Ten is pictured in].

    A couple of weeks ago there was talk about Doctor Who doing a take off of the Trek episode ‘Trouble with Tribbles’ which was used in Deep Space Nine (? I think) and it was poo-pooed as the quality of the Who episodes wasn’t good enough.  Turns out is was a red herring, and we did get a bit of a glimpse of what could be done.  I still get a little thrill when I see the ‘doctored’ clips.

    In terms of where JH Doctor fits into the timeline, the flagging up of the Time War in JttCotT does seems to indicate that it should be between Eight and Nine.  Also Ecclestone appears to have been approached to take part and McGann was a bit vague about his participation or non-participation in the 50th.   I’d be pleased to see McGann taken into the fold, the big budget film was a travesty of course but as I’ve mentioned before I do enjoy Eight’s audio stories.

    My bonkers theory™ is that JH Doctor will be a warmongering figure who perhaps started the Time War and when he regenerated, Nine had to take steps to finish it.

    #9986
    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    I wonder if what JH Doctor is looking at when his back is facing us is a clue.. looks like a desolated Gallifrey to me..

     

    #9987
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Also Ecclestone appears to have been approached to take part and McGann was a bit vague about his participation or non-participation in the 50th.

    @chickenelly – I wonder if they both filmed regeneration sequences? McGann never got a regeneration ‘out’ and Eccleston never got a regeneration ‘in’. If we’re going to place Hurt’s Doctor correctly, it would be nice to have a short scene where, say, the McGann Doctor gets fatally injured and regenerates into Hurt, and then – at the end of the story – Hurt regenerates into Eccleston.

    I don’t think Eccleston wants to reprise the part, but he might have been willing to do his regeneration ‘in’.

    #9988
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @chickenelly. Your bonkers theory is under copyright? Or you have copyrighted “bonkers theory”? I think not!

    I agree that it sounds very logical. I just wonder if it will work without the participation of Eccleston? @bluesqueakpip, while it would be nice if Eccleston had agreed to do a regeneration, I fear that may be wishful thinking.

    Which leads to my (current) bonkers theory (which is not under copyright, but is thin at one end, thick in the middle and thin at the other end) that John Hurt is the timelord before Hartnell–the reason that Hartnell ran away in the first place, and the reason that Hartnell called himself the Doctor. Current theory is still that he (Hurt) helped create the Hand of Omega, and in that sense, the timelords themselves.

    p.s. @chickenelly. I think your current avatar is simply brilliant!

    #9989
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @blenkinsopthebrave John Hurt is the timelord before Hartnell–the reason that Hartnell ran away in the first place, and the reason that Hartnell called himself the Doctor.

    That’s my theory as well; still working on why though. I thought it from the dialogue and Hurt not running in the finale (perhaps being condemned to look at what he’d done?) but all other versions doing so.

    #9990
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Hi @satsumajoe. A kindred spirit! Have forgotten you had already proposed this. Apologies. Yes, I think we are onto something.

    Back in “The Remembrance of the Daleks” The Doctor intimated that he, along with Omega and Rassilon, had developed the Hand of Omega. (I hope I am remembering that correctly.) Anyway, assuming I am, and given that the Timelords themselves are a very ambiguous lot, morally speaking, I wonder if the Hand of Omega, and the immortality of the Timelords, came at a terrible price? Do I have any proof for this? Well, no, but it is amazing what an evening at one’s local wine bar can produce.

    #9991
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @blenkinsopthebrave Not at all! We may indeed be onto something, that old (and apparently reviled) Cartmel Masterplan? I didn’t see the BG series so I’m not disgusted by the idea. Do remember it being mentioned in light of the Doctor’s digs in TBoSJ – Cartmel Priory?

    #9992
    Anonymous @

    With regards to the current which Doctor is Hurt dilemma —

    To me, as I’ve said before, the line ‘he was the one that broke the promise’ suggests that he comes after the name of the Doctor has been taken. It also means that he can’t be the ‘first’ either otherwise the promise can’t have been made in the first place.  I think placing him in the Time War makes the most sense in terms of having done ‘terrible things’. Although he could, of course, be Twelfth.

    Plus I think the photos of him in his costume, for those that have been unfortunately spoiled by them, place him chronologically pretty well.

    If all this turns out to be the case, it’s a real shame that Eccleston didn’t come back for the anniversary. Being the most ‘war-damaged’ of the lot, it would have been wonderful to see his reaction to his previous incarnation (if indeed that is who Hurt is).

    #9993
    CraigNixon @craignixon

    As someone mentioned a few pages ago.
    GI being an element of change….of Chaos perhaps?

    Clara being Order?  GI and Hurt wear black….

    Black Guardian for the 50th?  (Yes, I’m going to punt that constantly  😛 )

    Really though. THere is some information on the Time War. The Wiki pages contain sources from RTD and Moff at Cons / Confidential. I’m not going to assume its all right but I find this interesting

     

    The Last Great Time War pitted the Time Lords themselves against the Daleks of Skaro.[1] The specific incident that sparked the conflict remains unclear, but according to executive producer Russell T Davies, the origins dated back to the encounters of the Doctor with the Daleks. In Genesis of the Daleks (1975), the Time Lords—having foreseen the possibility of the Daleks conquering the universe—send the Fourth Doctor into the past in an attempt to avert the Daleks’ creation, or affect their development to make them less aggressive.[2]

    In retaliation for this ultimately unsuccessful mission, the Daleks attempt to infiltrate the High Council of the Time Lords with duplicates of the Fifth Doctor in Resurrection of the Daleks (1984), followed by an open declaration of hostilities by one of the Dalek Emperors in Remembrance of the Daleks (1988).[3]

    Two specific events led up to the outbreak of the war: A peace treaty was attempted by President Romana under the “Act of Master Restitution” (a possible reference to the otherwise-unexplained trial of the Master on Skaro at the beginning of the 1996 television movie). This attempt was followed by the “Etra Prime Incident” (The Apocalypse Element), which some say “began the escalation of events”.

    I find this interesting as we know Rassilon was nuts due to trying to ascend the Time Lords to beings of though and energy.
    What if…the TIme War was already under way and the Dr (Hurt) found out about the plan, and sided with the daleks.

    Actually fought on the side of the Daleks for ‘Peace and Sanity” to stop the destruction of the Universe?

    Imagine what that would do?

    In this, he could be Mcgann – Ecclestone or Future Valeyard (IF he somehow ended up back in the Time War. Maybe we’ll even revisit Genesis and start the TIme War?)

    #9995
    overunder @jamesunderscore

    @jimthefish I think you’re probably right, and I think from the production team’s perspective revealing what actually happened during the Time War is a lot less risky than revealing too much about the Doctor’s origins which are something that’s best served up a drip a time without ever getting to the truth of the matter, as any definitive answer would most likely be a disappointment to a big chunk of viewers.

    #9996
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jimthefish. Oh, how outrageously logical you are! Yes, I just watched the episode again, and you are quite right, you cannot break a promise before it has been made. Oh well, bang goes that theory. It was probably a bit too thin at either end.

    On the other hand, there are 6 months in which to come up with more bonkers alternatives…

    #9997
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave — yes, I think the speculation over the next six months is going to be very interesting, to say the least…

    #9998
    budinacup @budinacup

    Soooooooo alot of people enjoying John Hurt as the Doctor.

    i have a theory………. What if John Hurt IS The Doctor but did something so terrible that William harnells Time Lord felt he didnt deserve the title anymore and stole his identity (and him) He then Became The Doctor.

    This would mean not only have we been watching an impostor to the title all these years but it opens up another 11 regens when Matt Smith bows out. Maybe he could go to Hurt in his last moments and ask him to continue the example he has set as The Doctor.

    any thoughts?

    #9999
    FiveFaces @fivefaces


    I’m guessing that the question of ‘who is Clara?’ has now, to all intents and purposes, been wrapped up: she chose to step into the Doctor’s space-time journey and so has been fragmented all through his past lives, with time re-written in the process. By now the Doctor must have met her dozens of times, always hovering on the edge of his adventures like a guardian angel. (Shouldn’t he start recognising her at some point, or is that all just timey-wimey?) Nevertheless, there are some Clara back-story things that still puzzle/bother me. Maybe some of these don’t matter any more, or have been cleared up and I’ve missed the answers, but I’d really like to know.

    Who originally gave her the Doctor’s phone number?

    Why did she keep the DELSA envelope in 101 Places to See, and why didn’t she record her age in that book when she was 16 and 23?

    Are we going to see Clara’s dad again? She doesn’t seem to care about him very much; nor does the Doctor. But he’s been left all alone now, with his wife dead and his child fragmented through space & time. That’s totally at odds with the (new series) Doctor’s normal attitude towards his companions’ parents. And if Clara was born to save the Doctor, does that say anything about who her parents were?

    Who did Clara recognise in The History of the Time War, and how did she seem to know him/her without fully knowing his/her identity (‘so that’s who…’)? And what was the tiny thing where she saw the Doctor’s name?

    How did the Doctor get Clara’s leaf back?

    #10000
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @davemorris316 – I thought that they were back at Trenzalore, looking at the battlefield. I suppose it would make just as much sense for it to be a ruined Gallifrey!

    On a different-ish topic, I just realised that in the prequel to The Bells of St John, the Clara Oswald who gives the Doctor the idea for “a quiet place for a think” is really a ClaraFragment rather than ClaraPrime as I had thought before. This means we had seen at least 3 ClaraFragments before we met ClaraPrime.

    #10001
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    I would add that the point about Clara’s dad really bugs me. After all the attention that Pete & Jackie Tyler, Martha’s family, Wilf and Brian have had in the show, Clara’s dad just gets a quick serial-flashbacks love story (with the Doctor poking around in his past in a rather sinister way), and then in Bells of St John he’s dismissed in a throwaway line about how he’s angry with the government, and made to sound like a bit of a nuisance. Then the Doctor whisks this widower’s (I presume) only daughter off on dangerous, indeed life-threatening, adventures without a second thought. Maybe I have sometimes found the treatment of family relationships in the new series a bit cloying — I don’t remember it ever really bothering the Doctor in the old series much — but I can’t watch Father’s Day without crying. I have to admit, I feel very sad for Clara’s dad.

    #10003
    Anonymous @

    @jamesunderscore“revealing what actually happened during the Time War is a lot less risky than revealing too much about the Doctor’s origins”

    Am I the only one who would prefer the Doctor’s origins – other than what has been revealed to date – remain a mystery?  It’s nice to have that big blank space of 900 years to theorise about, in context of what we see him say and do in his adventures.

    @craignixon“What if…the TIme War was already under way and the Dr (Hurt) found out about the plan, and sided with the daleks.

    Actually fought on the side of the Daleks for ‘Peace and Sanity” to stop the destruction of the Universe?”

    Wow … just wow.  Now that is a ‘Dark Doctor’!  And certainly not one worthy of The Name by the standards of every other Doctor who fought the Daleks as the ultimate enemy.

    #10005
    Anonymous @

    @fivefaces – I think it was Clara herself who gave her the phone number in the shop.  Re the ‘101 places’ book and its missing years – I wanted to say it was because what we saw was before she fragmented, but of course that’s not possible to say because what we saw includes the fragmentations (ooh, timey-wimey.  what would we say if 10 hadn’t used that phrase?!)

    Re Clara’s Dad, that is a loose end that also bothers me.  But, until very near the end we didn’t even know Rory had a Dad, and I don’t know if there was speculation prior to that on why Rory seemed to have no family of his own – no ‘he’s a construct because where are his parents’ kind of talk.  (I could be wrong, but it seemed the focus of speculation was always on Amy.)  So, Clara’s Dad could be part of future episodes, or simply never mentioned again – especially if the ‘Clara is the future Doctor’ theories are true.

    Re getting the leaf back – I assumed it was because we were in the Doctor’s timestream, and he could have nicked it from her book.  (Speaking of which, she called it ‘Page One not a leaf’ – does the Page One refer to what will happen after the ending of TNotD?)

    And I really, really want to know how that sentence ended – ‘so that’s who …’  🙂

    #10006
    Anonymous @

    @davemorris316, @badwulf – interesting, I assumed the last scene of TNotD was back at Trenzalore but your dying Gallifrey theory is worth much chewing over, especially in light of what changes the Hurt Doctor can wreak on past events …

    #10007
    chickenelly @chickenelly

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    Bonkers theory™ I was thinking was this site’s trademark, but *thinks* perhaps I should quickly register it for myself *evil corporate cackle*.

    I could also add cogitate© and speculate® in there too.

    #10008
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip, @chickenelly, @blenkinsopthebrave – I don’t read much DW news, but I’m sure I saw somewhere (the BBC site?) where C Ecclestone is interviewed, and characterises the situation thusly (paraphrased):  ‘I was approached, I considered the offer, but sadly had to decline; I wish them well though.’

    That seems pretty definitive, but there is always that lingering  ‘but … what if he’s lying?’  😉

    #10009
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    I’m guessing that the question of ‘who is Clara?’ has now, to all intents and purposes, been wrapped up

    @fivefaces: Don’t think so. I was wondering if it was just me – unwilling to abandon a bonkers theory. But then my brother (who watches the show quite happily, but isn’t a Whovian) asked me what I thought of Saturday’s ending, because he felt that Clara’s story had just ended on a cliffhanger.

    So I think we’ve been watching Part One (Part Two being the 50th Anniversary Special), and Part One wraps up why Clara is the Impossible Girl. The question of who the Impossible Girl really is: well, that’s for the 50th.

    #10010
    Anonymous @

    @davemorris316“Jenny could still be the Doctor’s daughter – if the Whispermen didn’t know she was a timelord, maybe they only stopped one heart, which is why she didn’t regenerate, and why she was able to be brought back after seeming to be ‘dead’ for a little while.”

    I thought about The Princess Bride:  ‘Mostly dead.  Mostly dead is almost dead, but not quite.’  I thought that when Vastra cuddled her head on the floor, Jenny’s face looked distinctly not-dead, so when I read your comment, my immediate reaction was ‘of course!’.

    This is why I love this programme so much.  Almost every scene, every line, every camera angle, is done to be viewed in two entirely different ways:  1) straight up, just like it seems, so the casual viewer remains engrossed;  and 2) filled with innuendo or allusion which fans with knowledge of past episodes will be delighted and/or frustrated to theory about.

    There is such delayed gratification with this programme too – so many things unexplained for ages, maybe over different series, and then either wrapped up in a terribly clever way, or just never (well, to date) addressed again.  The latter we simply have to shrug our collective shoulders over, and say, ‘well, perhaps that didn’t really mean anything important’ and the former are the more delicious the longer it takes to reveal.

    #10011
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

     is really a ClaraFragment rather than ClaraPrime as I had thought 

    @badwulf – no. We see little Clara’s mother, and it’s the same actress who plays Ellie Ravenwood Oswald in Rings. Plus, this little Clara Oswald has a heavy Lancashire accent, as does her mum.

    But I do wonder if Clara Prime is … Clara Prime. She’s certainly the Clara who jumps into the time-stream – but she was already imprinted with ‘save the Doctor’ before she did that.

    Very wibbly-wobbly.

    #10012
    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    @shazzbot @badwulf

    It appears to me to be the ruined city we see at the start of the episode when the TARDIS is stolen. Could be (probably am) wrong.

     

    #10013
    Anonymous @

    @thommck – I think the ‘backup copy’ comment by the Doctor was referring to River’s post-death ‘life’ in the Library.  Not an additional copy, but I could be wrong.

    River said, just after opening the doors with the Doctor’s (birth) name, something like ‘good thing the Tardis can still hear me.’

    Re the ‘outside’ bit where the Pat Gang landed – someone else somewhere also called this ‘outside’.  But there is an initial shot of Vastra looking upward and we see ‘Police Box’ backward.  Therefore, they are indeed inside the dying Tardis.

    I like your ‘juicy theory’ that we now do not know if, since BoSJ, we’ve always been watching Clara Prime, or a splinter.  The latter theory does require that she was born in the same place/time multiple times, but that’s not impossible. Do you want to flesh this theory out, by thinking about her different characterisations in different episodes?  @bluesqueakpip (and others) have pointed out in this series that Clara seems to go home after each adventure.  Is there any continuity – for example, reference to past adventure which would mean it was the same version of Clara in both?

    #10014
    davemorris316 @davemorris316

    @shazzbot I love The Princess Bride. “Inconceivable!” could be a new word for the forum…

    #10015
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    She doesn’t seem to care about him very much

    @fivefaces – if she moved down to London to go to university and he’s still working up in Blackpool; it’s not that she doesn’t care about him very much, it’s just that most of her contact with him will be on the phone.

    And she can phone him from the TARDIS – if you’re living four hours drive away from Dad, travelling to another galaxy in a ship that can get you back to Blackpool in ten minutes isn’t that big a deal.

    They used the phone call to show that Clara and her Dad are still in contact, but the implication is that he’s told her to live her life, go to new places, do what your Mum always wanted you to do. Don’t stay at home just to look after your Dad.

    #10016
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @bluesqueakpip – Dang – I thought I had something there! Although… if Clara’s appearance can be replicated, then surely her parents’ appearance could also be replicated throughout time? Probably not. 🙁

    As to whether or not the Clara who jumps into the time stream is ClaraPrime, I would say it *has* to be ClaraPrime, by definition. (i.e. the Clara who jumps is the Clara who becomes fragmented, and is thus the template for each ClaraFragment).

    #10017
    SatsumaJoe @satsumajoe

    @jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave Hmm, I suppose that makes sense in a logical sort of way but for a person who can visit the site of their own death etc, it’s entirely possible to break a promise you’ve not yet made. I think.

    There might be a very questionable argument there. My poor theory!

    @Shazzbot Do you want to flesh this theory out, by thinking about her different characterisations in different episodes?

    Oh, that’s interesting! One person as… octuplets/smaller -lets?

    #10018
    Anonymous @

    Y’know, these recent posts about Clara Prime vs Clara Fragment have really got me thinking … many people have been confused (/outraged as per elsewhere!) that Clara’s character has seemed a little, well, different in each episode this half-series.  Some have posited that it shows the order in which the episodes were filmed, and JLC’s growing confidence with the character she’s playing.

    But what if … what if … we haven’t actually been watching the same version of Clara in each episode so far?  🙂

    #10019
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @Shazzbot but the Doctor only knows the location of one?

     

    BTW hi gang =D

    #10020
    Timeloop @timeloop

    In retrospect I am wondering about something else: Why would River need to sleep and vanish at all (as an afterimage). She is saved, and the data wont get lost?

    #10021
    Anonymous @

    @timeloop – do you mean, location of Clara?  She’s always at the Maitland’s house.  But is she the same Clara in the house each time?

    It’s @thommck ‘s theory, so I don’t want to butt in on his territory.  🙂  And I do love to read everyone’s bonkers theories, and encourage them to create a good story about their theory I can enjoy, but I’m just not creative enough to come up with them all on my own.

    Me?  I’m the Facilitator, not the creative one.  (Hey, if I were a Time Lord, that would be the name I choose – ‘The Facilitator’.  Snappier than ‘The Teacher’, and more indicative of what a teacher does.)

    #10022
    Anonymous @

    @timeloop – besides ‘sleep’ being a reference to an earlier Doctor (and I’ll make way for the knowledgeable ones to remind us of the exact moment; but I’m sure a clip of that scene was posted somewhere on this site), in my mind it also referenced Shakespeare’s ‘to sleep – perchance to dream’.

    This is why I [sadly] suspect we’ve seen the last of River.  She knows that from now on, all she will have are the dreams of her Doctor, and no more adventures.

    #10023
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot – and now we know why the Doctor ‘doesn’t like endings’.

    He never gets the one he really wants:

    and they lived happily ever after.

    #10024
    brotherjohn @brotherjohn

    A thought that has just occurred to me.

    First, I tend to lay pretty firmly in the camp that says JH will be between 8 & 9, and have done something worse than we have even been told in the Time War (worse than genocide, I guess?).

    However…

    Most people who also subscribe to this theory have dismissed the possibility of him being pre-Hartnell because he “broke the promise”, so therefore the promise must have been made, so therefore he can’t be pre-Hartnell.

    But that is incorrect.

    We know that *insert Gallifreyan name here* chose the name “The Doctor” pre-Hartnell, yes.  But JH could be One, the original Doctor who chose the name.  He could have “broken the promise” during his first generation.  This is equally as possible as him breaking the promise in any other generation after.  And whatever “he” did to “himself” (TimeLock, banishment, etc) after breaking the promise could have been done by any of Doctors 1 through 11 — or 2 through 12 here (unless you only ascribe numbers to “Doctors”, in which case numbers do not equal generations because the first one was made to give up the name).

    I’m just playing Devil’s advocate here.  But I think this shoots the whole “He can’t be pre-Hartnell b/c he broke the promise, and the promise had to be made” argument out of the water.

    #10025
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip – ahh, but does the Doctor want ‘happily ever after’?

    I suspect he’d be bored after 3 days, tapping his foot and wanting to get into trouble.  😀

    #10026
    brotherjohn @brotherjohn

    @timeloop – River faded b/c the Doctor didn’t use Carbonite Online Backup?

    @Shazzbot – Do you listen to David Cross?  (he has this bit… “I’m the ‘facilitator’!  I ‘facilitate’!”)

    #10027
    Anonymous @

    @davemorris316 – Of course, “Inconceivable!” was followed by ‘I do not think that word means what you think it means’.

    😀

    Although my brain does start hurting when I realise that TNotD now throws the entire past series (not mention the entire past history of the whole show!) into an entirely different light.  I thought the River timeline was bad enough, but this … thank goodness S Moffat is encouraging our brains to work!

    #10028
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @Shazzbot – no, because in this story, facing his own death, he comments

    Always thought, maybe I’d retire. Take up watercolours, or beekeeping or something.

    And later in the episode he’s referred to as ‘the old man’.

    Back in Cold War the Professor (who’s the Doctor’s mirror for that story) says:

    It’s a young man’s game, all this dashing about.

    I think we are getting to the end of this cycle of the Doctor’s life; he’s old, he feels old, he’s a widower and he’s starting to think vaguely about retirement. Did retire, in fact, in The Snowmen – but Madame Vastra, Jenny and Strax knew it was for the wrong reasons, so they managed to pull him out of it.

    Because he can’t retire. He has a duty. ‘The Doctor’ is a promise. And there are no children to hand the name onto, no-one who can take on the name of ‘The Doctor’.

    He killed them all.

    #10029
    Anonymous @

    @brotherjohn – I don’t know David Cross, no.  Is he a comic?  Is he funny?  Can I stick with ‘The Facilitator’ … or is David Cross some kind of ‘lifestyle guru’ and I have to throw that name off and pretend I never said it?!

    #10030
    BadWulf @badwulf

    @davemorris316 – when Clara reappears and hears the Doctor speaking, and then sees the Hurt Doctor looking away, they are almost certainly on Trenzalore, because in the background we can see Trenzalore style gravestones.

     

    #10031
    brotherjohn @brotherjohn

    I’ll take this further (although again, I still tend to lay in the 8.5 camp):

    The first Doctor, the Hurt Doctor, the one who made the promise…  broke the promise.  The TIME LORDS imposed a penalty.  They locked up Hurt Doctor for crimes against the Universe — maybe for all eternity — and “The Doctor” (Hartnell) ESCAPED.  Maybe his regenerations had been “confiscated” by the Time Lords, but he somehow regenerated into another, separate persona, and reclaimed the “Doctor” title.

    And he’s been running ever since.

    I’m beginning to convince myself.

    #10032
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @Shazzbot There is one Clara per GI isnt there? How could she haver several of her around the same time?

    As to the other “besides ‘sleep’ being a reference to an earlier Doctor , in my mind it also referenced Shakespeare’s ‘to sleep – perchance to dream’.”

    I have the same feeling about River being gone for good. -but why does that particular part deduce that for you?

    @brotherjohn Meaning the database gets faulty?

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