Arachnids In The UK

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This topic contains 125 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by  Cath Annabel 11 months ago.

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  • #65339
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @kevinwho Ooh, if the Doctor that we think is the current Doctor turns out to be a pretend Doctor, and then we meet the real and completely different Doctor, then that would be egg on everyone’s face who ever had any kind of strong opinion about the new Doctor, or whether “Jodi” was even any good.  Because that wasn’t even the new Doctor you morons. 🙂

    #65340
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – Terrible indeed, but what a twist!

    @lisa – I like JW well enough, but I admit this season isn’t grabbing me either.  I mean, the most intriguing element yet was that the Ghost Monument shows up on that planet every 1000 cycles, and that the planet was out of orbit.  Really?  Cool!  Something there snares a TARDIS every 1000 cycles?  Pulls it through space and time from a regenerating Time Lord, perhaps?  Or just grabs for time-traveling devices, and when it gets one as massive/powerful as a TARDIS the planet gets knocked out of orbit.

    I really hope sometime in the next six episodes (or at Christmas) some of these things will be addressed.  I understand they want the casual fans back, but the casual fans sat still for a Doctor Dances, Blink, Silence in the Library, etc. story once per season…

    #65341
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – Exactly!  It’s a notion I love to play around with!  “This show burns out whoever plays the Doctor!”  “Yes, so maybe we’ll only pretend it’s the Doctor, mwahahaha!” 😀

    #65344

    @idiotsavon

    I think the “nudges” idea has legs.

    But also there is a theme of inadequacy and its relationship to cruelty. Tim Shaw was a cheat, Epzo a social cripple willing to cheat (but prevented by the rules); James Blake a spiteful racist who escaped to fishing. A bus driver abusing his power; and the spiders too big to live a perfect metaphor for and careless second-rate Trump.

    I suspect that Chibnall is going for arc-of-theme, rather than arc-of-plot.

    Still would have liked a bit more of a sense of threat. I mean, An American Werewolf in London was the genre-maker of comedy horror, but it was dripping with threat.

    #65349
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @miapatrick

    I want to see racism being discussed on a more intellectual level. Racism isn’t something that comes out of nowhere. Any english in 12th century will not be a racism against african because most of them never met one.Thay will not have the concept of different race. If not for western nations’s rising power of 16th century to 19th century white peoples will be considered themselves as the superior race to every other human being. In 17th century western missionaries consider we Chinese as the more civilized people, even up to 18th century western countries like France still hold China in high regard. The Opium War changed that.

    Power and ignorance created racism, power can be taken by other if history or future has a different direction and all human are equally capable of  ignorance

    But of course considering the unfortunate implication it may be best just use green people and blue people to tell this kind of story

    #65351
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 yes Chinese civilisation, and Japanese, were more comprehendible to Europeans than African, the kind of literary and artistic culture was more recognisable. (To the extent than when, say, the Benin Bronzes were found in Benin, europeans were convinced they derived from a different culture.)

    The concept of different races did exist in the 12th century, though. The Moorish occupation of Spain and subsequent reconquest and the crusades fall into this time. I agree that this would mostly have concerned the upper classes. This was also a time when the upper classes spoke a different language to the lower classes in England. As well as (often exaggerated) tensions between the Normans and the Anglo-Saxons, we had tensions between England and the parts of the British Isles where the Celts had been driven. We also had institutionalised discrimination against Jewish people.

    Of course this same culture that denounced the infidel muslims also rediscovered a lot of the classical literature of Europe through the work of islamic scholars and absorbed a lot of of the scientific work of the Islamic empire , often by Latinising the names of Arab scholars and absorbing them into the cannon.

    It’s true that throughout history England specifically absorbed waves of invaders – the Angels, Saxons, and Jutes, Scandinavians, Normans, and that makes up who we are now, and the language we’re typing in. Race did make this more complicated. There has been extreme bigotry towards the Irish, for example, but it hasn’t lingered in the war racism towards people of African decent. The visible difference seems key. (Which is why anti-Semitic propaganda so often uses cartoons of hooked noses). We remain very good at absorbing other cultures (our most popular dish is a bastardisation of an Indian dish, our national drink is tea, we drink it out of china, we’re obsessed with paper, bombfire night is coming up and we’ll celebrate it with fireworks).

    Our specific and greatest problems with racism come with the fact that many of our black and asian population come from former slave populations and the occupation of India respectively, from countries we tried to justify our treatment of with ideas of basic inferiority. That isn’t to say that within communities and individuals of these ethnic groups you won’t find bigoted views, as you say, it’s human nature. But yes, green and blue people, for now, might be best. Though it does bare repeating, the second episode did feature someone of asian decent using two white people as his own personal, disposable, real life video game characters.

    #65354
    Whisht @whisht

    Hi everyone – apologies for not coming on earlier, but have read everything.
    In fact I think that I’ve enjoyed reading on this site more than the episodes (I’ve learnt more as well!).
    I think that as @pedant mentioned, this series is likely a thematic arc rather than a plot arc. Not sure we’ll see any of the monsters/bad guys again (maybe one).

    For me I’m beginning to think the theme is that bullies pick on the ‘weakest’. Or at least the people they perceive as the weakest. And the episodes are more focused on the bullied rather than the monsters (and the monster/bullies are all a bit rubbish ‘cos bullies often are especially if you’re a kid at school).

    So, we get Tim Shaw picking on Karl;
    Angstrom the contestant/almost-refugee survivor of the Stenza;
    Black people in segregated America
    Staff of notTrump including Yaz’s mum.

    However each time we’re shown how the ‘weakest’ can overcome their bullies, and there are right ways and wrong ways of doing that.
    So Karl shouldn’t kick an-already beaten Tim Shaw in order to feel better (you don’t get self-worth by bullying others).
    Angstrom wants to win the jackpot to lift her family out of poverty.
    Rosa non-violently resisting.
    Yaz’s mum talking back to notTrump.

    I’m still having problems with the series so far. I really don’t like the interior of the Tardis – its too dark for the bright WhitDoc (and to my eyes the crystal pillars looks plastic-y and let the effect down).
    The ending of Arachnids seems to be erm, lets just put the spiders away from people and let them die in that room (rather than say, take them to a planet of huge flies).

    I don’t know, there’ll just be little bits that take me out of the drama – or just a lack of drama or peril.

    But I really want Whitaker-as-the-Doctor to work and think she will nail it soon (for me).
    I also like a lot of what Graham, Yaz and Ryan are doing and evolving as and there are some great smaller moments (which people here have all talked about really well).

    So – on to Sunday!
    (but not before I maybe put penny’sworth on a couple of other threads!)

    #65355
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”><span class=”useratname”>@miapatrick </span></div>

    <div class=”bbp-reply-content”>The concept of different races did exist in the 12th century, though. The Moorish occupation of Spain and subsequent reconquest and the crusades fall into this time. I agree that this would mostly have concerned the upper classes.</div>

    <div>The term “race” is something hard to define. We use the term very loosely to describe a group of people of similar physical appearance, of same religion, of same culture.In the origin post I used race as to describe a group of people with similar physical appearance. Moorish is indeed have some physical appearance difference from christian spanish but also they are more alike to each other in physical appearance then to chinese or african. So where does the line drawn when difference is too great to be consider different race? I don’t know there is any clear and scientific definition of “Race”</div>
    <div>For people of that time, they don’t have the very concept of “Race”.Difference yes ,but not racial difference. If one is white but also a muslim,most christian european will just see this one as a muslim, not a white muslim.The whiteness has insufficient social meaning to be considered as defining trait of in this time period,it’s religion that most defining trait of a person.</div>
    <div>The idea of a entire people is inferior just by birth is not very popular in history before 18th century europe. Bigoted views of other people of difference is very common, it can be found both in Ancient China or Ancient Greek but not in such way.I don’t think it is a coincidence that such idea come around the some time as the concept of race being created in europe.</div>

    <div>Though it does bare repeating, the second episode did feature someone of asian decent using two white people as his own personal, disposable, real life video game characters.</div>

    <div>
    <div class=”bbp-pagination”> When I first watched the I didn’t noticed the Ilin (the game master) is played by a non-white acter (<b>Art Malik</b>) because he with makeout was similar enough to rest of the white case to my eyes even both of me and him are technically Asian(Chinese and Pakistani).</div>
    </div>

    #65356
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    <div class=”bbp-reply-author”><span class=”useratname”>@miapatrick </span></div>

    <div class=”bbp-reply-content”>The concept of different races did exist in the 12th century, though. The Moorish occupation of Spain and subsequent reconquest and the crusades fall into this time. I agree that this would mostly have concerned the upper classes.</div>

    <div>The term “race” is something hard to define. We use the term very loosely to describe a group of people of similar physical appearance, of same religion, of same culture.In the origin post I used race as to describe a group of people with similar physical appearance. Moorish is indeed have some physical appearance difference from christian Spanish but also they are more alike to each other in physical appearance then to Chinese or African. So where does the line drawn when difference is too great to be consider different race? I don’t know there is any clear and scientific definition of “Race”</div>
    <div>For people of that time, they don’t have the very concept of “Race”.Difference yes ,but not racial difference. If one is white but also a muslim,most christian european will just see this one as a muslim, not a white muslim.The whiteness has insufficient social meaning to be considered as defining trait of in this time period,it’s religion that most defining trait of a person.</div>
    <div>The idea of a entire people is inferior just by birth is not very popular in history before 18th century Europe. Bigoted views of other people of difference is very common, it can be found both in Ancient China or Ancient Greek but not in such way.I don’t think it is a coincidence that such idea come around the some time as the concept of race being created in Europe.</div>

    <div>Though it does bare repeating, the second episode did feature someone of asian decent using two white people as his own personal, disposable, real life video game characters.</div>

    <div>When I first watched the I didn’t noticed the Ilin (the game master) is played by a non-white acter (Art Malik) because he with makeout was similar enough to rest of the white case to my eyes even both of me and him are technically Asian(Chinese and Pakistani)</div>

    #65357
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @craig
    @miapatrick

    I don’t know what happens but I think the post system is broken for me

    #65359
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 trying to formulate a comment along the lines of ‘so we all look the same to you?’ that makes it clear I’m making a joke 😉 … sometimes europeans are bad at telling the difference between facial characteristics of, say, Korean and Chinese people in a similar way. The racial difference in that episode would be registered by europeans and people from the Indian sub-contenent.

     

    #65360
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 yes I keep double posting, though my links seem to be working.

     

    #65362
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @pedant I’d like it if the “nudges” theme became a thing: the message that, however unremarkable we think we are, we each have tremendous power to change and shape the world. But that one bad choice, one little nudge in the wrong direction could be catastrophic.

    Thinking about it, wasn’t there a convo somewhere on the Rosa thread about Thirteen’s warning to Team Tardis? She’d told them to be careful not to change history, whereas Ten and Twelve were both explicitly cavalier about treading on butterflies.

    At the beginning of World Enough and Time, Twelve seemed incredibly complacent, sitting with his feet up on the Tardis console eating crisps. And in the end, that single bad decision, that small delay in getting himself out of the Tardis, was what got Bill killed.
    Hence, perhaps, Thirteen’s change of heart and new-found caution.

    Actually, there was a certain nonchalance and showmanship about the Doctor as played by Tennant, Smith and Capaldi that I don’t think is there with Whittaker. Whittaker’s Doctor seems more anxious somehow. Maybe she’s feeling the pressure: don’t make a wrong move, no matter how small; don’t nudge things the wrong way. (Again.)

    #65363

    @lionheart564

    Are you by any chance composing in something else (Word, say) and then copying and pasting? That often brings a lot of bad formatting with it. The best way around it is to click the “Text” tab in the Reply box, which will show you any garbage that has cropped up.

    Thanks for the comments on my query (Chinese whispers is both a children’s game where a message is passed along a line via whispers, and then the final message is compared with the original and a metaphor for garbled communication).

    In the west we have a real tendency to attribute negatives to national stereotypes (in the UK syphilis was known as the “French Disease”, in France it was the “Italian disease” and the “French disease” right back at them by the Italians). I was curious see see if a similar thing happens in China.

    #65365
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @miapatrick

    I won’t blame them since myself can’t tell one is Chinese or Korean or Japanese just by looking at the face.

    @pedant

    Thank you for your advice.

    And to your question.No,we don’t really do that. In most of our history,we don’t see others as our equal but one of three things, tributary starts, barbarians or imperialism invaders. So a equal -ish rivalry like England vs France or France vs Italian doesn’t exist in China. Plus we have enough old storys as idiom.

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by  LionHeart564.
    #65369

    @lionheart564

    I will be deeply disappointed if I don’t count as a barbarian 😉

    @idiotsavon

    Yes, for all her bubbly persona, she is significantly more cautious and considered that her three forebears.

    #65475
    Azzitay @azzitay

    Poor Jodie deserves better writing than this.

    The plothole of the Spiders in the Panic Room and the Rest in Town is too damn bad for an

    awesome series like Dr.Who.

    Fire the Writer and get a decent one i say.

    #65476

    @azzitay

    There was no plot hole. It was clearly shown what happens to spiders that get too big.

     

     

    #65477
    Chiana @chiana

    I agree with Whisht, I’m not really getting into this series. All the pc preaching, and then to put all those spiders in a sealed room to die a slow death, probably eating each other, was far more cruel than killing them quickly; and we didn’t find out what happened to all the other spiders all over the city. I know they would have eventually died from growing too big, but they could have seen off quite a few victims in the mean time!

    As for the Rosa episode, I’m sure the protest would have happened another day; it wasn’t absolutely essential for it to take place on that specific day.

    They’ve obviously thrown a lot of money at it, with sets and big name guest stars, yet older series with far lower budgets managed to deliver the thrills which are lacking now; and I’m sure some of the older crews would have spotted the single shadow mistake in The Ghost Monument too!

    I’m not totally against JW, although I think a female actor with a bit more character may have been better (personally I think Rebecca Front would have been quite good) but I am getting a bit tired of the sonic screwdriver pose with the big arm swing!

    #65479
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    @miapatrick Of course this same culture that denounced the infidel muslims also rediscovered a lot of the classical literature of Europe through the work of islamic scholars and absorbed a lot of of the scientific work of the Islamic empire , often by Latinising the names of Arab scholars and absorbing them into the cannon.

    Wow, cool historical insights!

    And… the American Cowboy’s horsemanship style came from the Spanish in the wild west, who got it from (drum roll please)… the Moors and other Arab horsemen. And their small, wiry, hardy Arabs influenced most American breeds.

    Not to mention the “Spanish Colonial Horses”…descended from Moorish Barbs… that still roam the wild west, the east coast barrier islands; the Outer Banks: (Corollas, Shackelfords and Bankers), South Carolina (the Marsh Tacky), and Florida (the Florida Cracker Horse). Even the wild horses of my favorite islands, Chincoteague and Assateague (Maryland and Virginia) originally had Spanish Colonial Horses… aka.. Barbs from the Moors.

    (Most of my equines have been both Arabs and wild mustangs, it’s a favorite subject… WHO knew it would have anything to do with a tardis)

    @whisht taking the spiders to a Planet of Huge Flies… why didn’t I think of that! Brilliant!

     

    I think technically the human race is all one thing and the differences in DNA between us are ridiculously tiny.

    Actual genetic variation in humans. Human populations do roughly cluster into geographical regions. However, variation between different regions is small, thus blurring the lines between populations. Furthermore, variation within a single region is large, and there is no uniform identity.  http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-reshaping-race-debate-21st-century/

    Basically: difference between chunks of land where we come from: small. Variation in any bunch of people in a chunk of land: large.

    Human race.

     

    And yes, WhitDoc does have a distinctive style with the sonic screwdriver. I’m amused.

    @miapatrick I’m trying to sort out what the fuzzything is in your avatar…

    #65481
    nerys @nerys

    @chiana … but I am getting a bit tired of the sonic screwdriver pose with the big arm swing!

    Why more so with Jodie Whittaker than with any of her predecessors? They’ve all shown a flair for swinging out the sonic screwdriver and striking a dramatic pose.

    #65483
    Chiana @chiana

    Perhaps I haven’t noticed it so much! I didn’t think it was every time with others Doctors, and there are times it needs to be wielded discreetly.

    Maybe it’s just because I’m not really seeing JW as the Doctor. I remember when Matt Smith took over and I knew David Tennant was going to be a tough act to follow. Within a few minutes of the start of his first episode I thought “he’s got it!” I don’t have that feeling now unfortunately.

    #65492
    nerys @nerys

    @chiana I had the same feeling about Matt Smith, to the point where I avoided watching Doctor Who for quite some time after he started. It was only when we happened upon a repeat and watched it that I realized he was quite convincing as the Doctor, and every bit as good as Tennant, just different.

    In fact, I loved Chris Eccleston, too. But because he had only one season, it didn’t seem like such a major transition to Tennant. Truth be told, I thought Tennant got off to a slow start. But once he got going, he was great.

    Jodie Whittaker won me over within minutes. But I also realize this is very subjective, and not everyone is going to react the same. I quite enjoyed Peter Capaldi’s Doctor, but lost count of the number of people who posted (mainly on other sites) that he just wasn’t the Doctor, for them. Different strokes, and all!

    I do hope, as others have observed, we start getting some episodes that feel like the Doctor and her companions are facing more of a serious menace. Fingers crossed that that’s yet to come.

    #65494
    ichabod @ichabod

    @juniperfish  We can’t wait for the Doctor, or anyone else, to fix earth’s problems. We have to do it ourselves. A rather sombre message, for sombre times.

    And much needed — and heeded, to some degree, as noted about the mid-term elections here in the US.  This part of what CC is doing I do like: the scaling back of the earlier Doctor-braggadocio (though some humor, and a bit of the endearing edging into buffoonery went with it, too).  WhittDoc is herself, so far for me, a scaled-back Doctor in other ways, too — less self-absorbed, more brisk and chummy than aloof and alien, more *demanding* of humans rather than pointing out our failings.

    I see a good parent to nervous children here, rather than an ancient, experienced, and erratic space adventurer; and maybe that good but realistic parent is also what’s needed right now.

    @missrory  . . . Doctor has knowledge that, as a time-and-space traveler who needs to keep the Web of Time intact (and who saw humanity pay dearly for a previous self ousting Harriet Jones), there really is only so much she can fix.

    Yeah — She can do repairs and upgrades, but she can’t change Entropy permanently, only interrupt it a bit here and there . . . and now knows that, and shows a bit of humility on account of it.  I love your comments on those damned, futile, useless “super-heroes” who do nothing about our real problems, just a lot of posturing, muscle-flexing, and game-playing about invented ones — although that does reflect with uncomfortable accuracy the relationship between the current administration and the problems of the nation it administers, come to think of it (though I can really only speak for the US, of course — where it looks like a close fit).

    @arch  . . . love graham, Walsh is playing the character very well and I love that we have a mature companion again.

    Yes; he’s becoming the warm, steady heart of the group, very good and enjoyable work from Walsh.

    #65495
    ichabod @ichabod

    @chiara  I think a female actor with a bit more character may have been better (personally I think Rebecca Front would have been quite good)

    I think so too; Amanda Tapper, from “Sanctuary” etc, might have done better.  I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed by chipper-upper-lipper-itis, or something, and longing for some moments of reflection, some quiet thoughtfulness, all the stuff (of course) that tends to get left out of programming for young viewers (though Walsh brings some of that, in his memories of his beloved Grace — but WhittDoc has no such moments that I can recall, so far — too busy and flighty, expressing energy and quick thinking in buzzing activity).

    #65684
    Cath Annabel @cathannabel

    I had a vague memory of a (relatively) obscure literary reference and have just tracked it down to this episode:

    We’re going to lure them in here with the promise of food, then deal with the spider mother in the ballroom. Oh, that sounds like the best novel Edith Wharton never wrote.

    Bit of an odd one!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Wharton – not entirely obvious why Wharton sprang to mind.  Still, I do like the occasional obscure literary reference.

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