Arachnids In The UK

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  • #65141
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @hobbyco

    Am I the only one who is noticing that in every episode so far, the “baddy” is white and male

    Yup, because as @miapatrick points out, that simply isn’t true. The baddy has been, respectively, alien, non-white (possibly alien), from the dominant race in a racist society, and not orange, honest, because the Orange One will probably sue if we don’t make it clear the character is not Donald Trump.

    The main baddies have been male, but Chibbers has done previous episodes where the main baddie has been female – so it’s more likely that he’s deliberately riffing off the fact that he’s switched the Doctor’s apparent sex, and so is establishing her authority against male villains before he gets to the female villains.

    #65143
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @kevinwho

    In an episode about racism, the villain as personified pretty well has to be white, and in 1955 Alabama, male.

    Racism isn’t a white only thing, I have seen a good number of racists in China, all of them are Chinese and many of them are woman which means racism are not unique to white or male. So yes you can do a episode about racism which the villain isn’t a white male or set in America south in the 50s.

    #65144
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @hobbyco

    Am I the only one who is noticing that in every episode so far, the “baddy” is white and male (unless they are a “monster

    So, it’s a white male except when it isn’t, is that what you’re saying? And out of four episodes, two had white male antagonists. That’s a pretty even split, don’t you think?

    it would be great to see a female “baddy”

    Missy? Madame Kovarian? Ms Delphox? Miss Kizlet? Looks like there’s been plenty of those. And I’m sure CC plans to add to that roster.

    White male children need positive role models too

    Somehow I don’t think they’re doing too badly for them. Pretty much all of western culture still prioritises them. Including having 50-odd years of male Doctors for a start.

    #65147
    Anonymous @

    @lionheart564 – Very true. But I think if a UK or US program does so, they’ll get more grief for seeming to ignore those most discriminated against in their countries. Maybe next decade?

    #65148
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @lionheart564

    Racism isn’t a white only thing

    No, it certainly isn’t. But if you’re setting an episode in Alabama in 1955, chances are its white racism that you’re going to have to engage with. Quite apart from anything else, that’s the particular brand of racism that’s causing the most toxicity in the world today, so it’s a pretty good place to start.

    #65149
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 as I pointed out to @hobbyco, Rosa showed female racists, even one he referred to while trying to make a point about portrayal of heterosexuals.

    As for racism from people who aren’t white, the last series showed Bill, encountering a blue person for the first time, and inadvertently coming across as, well, a little racist.

    #65150
    MissRori @missrori

    @jimthefish Heck, wasn’t one of the complaints against Moffat during his showrunner tenure that he supposedly couldn’t write female characters who weren’t either companions (or close to it in River’s case) or baddies?  People definitely noticed those villains at the time!  😀

    #65151
    alexanderbarnstaple @alexanderbarnstaple

    My Dr Who back story

    I first saw Dr Who in the late 1960’s in black and white here in New Zealand.

    I watched about 2 programmes.

    I liked the theme music and the Darlicks.

    The show looked like it was made in a garage with the  props all made out of cardboard. [Probably was 🙂 ]

    I thought the programme very grey and amateurish  so I stopped watching.

    Jump forward 20 years it’s 1988 I liked the Time Lords video “Dr Who”

    So before this year I had missed 12 Dr’s and 200 episodes.

     

    Time warp forward another 30 years and I drop in again on Dr Who.

    I was drawn in by the first female Dr .

    I am so happy with the new Dr DR as the older male Dr/ pretty teenage girl theme was creepily incestuous.

    This Dr has no obvious toy boy love interest as Ryan and Yaz seem to be connecting. Graham?

    No doubt a black DR then a Gay DR will follow. then an android then …

    Any way I loved the first double episode new characters set in Yorkshire 2018 was great.

    The ghost ship episode was like an early star trek / Lost in space alien desert planet  silly  gig.

    Rosa was outstanding so good , too good perhaps.

    The scary spider gig scared nobody because after a trillion scary monster movies

    these past 50 years  who is scared of any thing any more.

    Those spiders were silly plain silly but fun and the poor mummy spider got shot..aww

    by the  Donald Trump character with the terrible American accent (on purpose) was ridiculously jolly.

    After this and the Rosa episode  they might wanna lighten up on the bad white male characters.

    The 50 year hiatus and 200 eps missed don’t seem to matter to me.

    Like I missed nothing at all 🙂

    Is it just me or is Jodi W a modern reincarnation of Victoria Wood.

     

     

    #65152
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @alexanderbarnstaple

    the Donald Trump character with the terrible American accent (on purpose) was ridiculously jolly.

    There’s a long-standing joke in acting circles that it’s always the actors who are genuinely from the area who are told how terrible their accents are. Given that Chris Noth is originally from Wisconsin, I suspect the accent was very much on purpose.

    I have noticed that this rule is being followed to the full by those BTL at T’Other Place, though more with the Northern accents than the North American ones. 🙂

    #65154
    nerys @nerys

    @hobbyco White male children need positive role models too!!

    I would say Graham qualifies, wouldn’t you?

    #65155
    geoffers @geoffers

    @bluesqueakpip – There’s a long-standing joke in acting circles that it’s always the actors who are genuinely from the area who are told how terrible their accents are.

    my southern inflections (tennessee) only really present when i’m visiting my mom, and i’ve been told (quite often) that i sound like i’m from somewhere further north. perhaps the exaggerated accent is simply a “stage adaptation,” which is easily fallen into, due to industry repetition (stage or film)?

    i don’t understand why the accent here (or those in ‘rosa’) is an issue, anyway. this is doctor who, not the royal shakespeare company, or some gritty real-life biopic. but then, i’d have a yuuuge issue with robertson’s character if he too closely mimicked he-whom-i-do-not-name’s speech patterns. it was mercifully downplayed, otherwise i probably couldn’t have made it past the opening scene…

    [yes, the mere sound of that voice is like ants crawling under my skin. we all have issues, right?]

    #65156
    geoffers @geoffers

    @nerys – I would say Graham qualifies, wouldn’t you?

    but graham is emasculated (i.e. not the main character), powerless (depends on a women for safety), and subservient (even to the ghost of his wife)…

    /s (just to be clear!)

     

    ugh, i made myself sick, just with that bit of role-play. deffo wouldn’t make a good actor… :-/

    #65160
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    Jeez, what’s with all the ‘won’t someone please think of the poor, endangered under-represented straight, white males’ chest clasping?

    #65161
    Darth Valaryn @troygorsline

    @jimthefish

    Haven’t you heard???
    In this new era of Political Correctness, the straight white men are the most persecuted of all! I mean, we actually have to pay attention to our words and actions. We have to be accountable to our own bigotry.

    Talk about unfair

    *** please please please have everyone hear how sarcastic I am being right now ***

    #65162
    Anonymous @

    @jimthefish – Because people aren’t used to it.  I don’t applaud the chest-clasping or want to hear it particularly, but I expect it.  You know – “Hey, since when is it my ox getting gored?!”

    This too shall pass.  It’ll become the new normal.  (Hm, can I find a third cliche to express that?)

    #65163

    @lionheart564

    Racism isn’t a white only thing, I have seen a good number of racists in China, all of them are Chinese and many of them are woman

    And in Japan directed at Koreans.

    But the show, when not in space, is only very occasionally set outside the UK. A few episodes now have been set the US (and fewer filmed there) and one of them even managed to have Richard Nixon behave in a manner wholly at odds with his real life conduct.

    So the casting tends to reflect the ethnic make up of the UK, and and the issues addressed tend to reflect issues as they present in the UK. The efforts in the US reflect the very real success that the modern show has had there. No show will ignore the chance to pander to new audience demographics.

    So there is hope for you: Chinese TV has bought the show up to season 15 (assuming it gets there). And you don’t need me to tell you that there are a LOT of potential viewers in China. So watch this space.

    Having said that, I am not entirely convinced that a show made in the UK by a British company is the best vehicle to explore racism in East Asia.

    #65165
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jimthefish

    “white males’ chest clasping”

    I think part of what is going on is captured by a term @pedant has shared: “angry virgins”.

    But I also think there is something else going on, that is particular to Who.

    That requires a different forum, so I will head on over to “On the Sofa”.

    However, I will need to compose my thoughts, so it may take a bit of time.

     

    #65166
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    @jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave @pedant

    Also see the term ‘broflakes’ – who are annoyed there isn’t an “International Man’s Day”, or a “Straight Pride”.

    Idiots.

    #65169
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    So @pedant

    Having said that, I am not entirely convinced that a show made in the UK by a British company is the best vehicle to explore racism in East Asia.

    I think there is some misunderstandings.what mean is that racism or sexism isn’t a white thing, it’s a human thing. I have seen very uncanny similarities between many Chinese And some westerners about their attitude towards things that thay consider “pc” like casting a woman doctor or the last episode “rosa” and that just some very recent examples from Chinese doctor who fandom. The real life examples will be very sick so I will not going be specify but let’s just say black people or muslins will find some Chinese are unpleasant in the same way that some western white people may have been and one particular orange man has many fans here despite our two nations are not in best tern of relationship

    What I want to say is that Doctor Who being a time travel sci-fi show has the potential to explore roots of racism, the ignorance and the fear of the “other”,the unwillingness to understand, the salf-importance given by long time social power. If Doctor Who want send a massage about racism are bad you should not be a racism and the white people should pay special attention to this massage, fair enough for the target audience but there’s more depth  the show can go.

    So there is hope for you: Chinese TV has bought the show up to season 15 (assuming it gets there). And you don’t need me to tell you that there are a LOT of potential viewers in China. So watch this space.

    I watched the first 3 episodes of series 11 on Youku, Chinese vision of YouTube, but this episode has been delayed for some reason so I have to download this episode. To be fair I paid the membership fees excepting I can watch the show in time. And yes Doctor Who is very popular in China for a western sci-fi show and I will even say it beats Star Trek in terms of fandom size

    #65170
    JimTheFish @jimthefish
    Time Lord

    @craig @blenkinsopthebrave @pedant

    I’m not going to dignify him with a link but if you truly want to see the Whoflake idiocy at its absolute nadir then pop over to YouTube and type in ‘bowlestrek’. But I warn you, it’s not pretty.

    #65171
    thane16 @thane16

    @tardigrade

    you can see why the Doctor might come across as lesbian- relatively short hair, androgynous clothing

    Big tick there.   Mum now has short hair;  wears dad’s T-shirts and his 3/4 long trackie-dacks.  In America or the UK you might not know those. In Australia it’s tracksuits in stretch fabric.

    I apologise for such a long post. I was trying to tag people as I enjoy the dialogue between us all. So most of this is for anyone who has time!

    “Where did all the spiders go?” This is what Moffat was accused of:  How did we get from A to C with A being spiders eating everyone and C being ‘they are all dead.’

    I think they went through B = a point where 1) spiders in apartments ran fast to Ground Zero 2) curled up and died 3) reverted to normal behaviour such as skulking in dark, dusty areas without human habitation. This was foreshadowed by Graham finding a spider’s ‘suit’ -like that of a divested snake. So, something happened to the spiders but we didn’t need to witness them disappear.

    @mrswho I think it was a metaphor for greed. It showed how we work together not on our own; ensuring that scientific experiments are carried out safely using all the methods of proper containment of hazards. The hazard in this case was Trump – Chris Noth’s character.

    @ekky80 The show has always left loose threads dangling. It’s also expected people to pay attention. We know what happened to Rosa Parks, we also deduce what happened to the spiders. We know why Grace died, both because of the story-telling and what the writers know to be clever: you must make the loss of a person felt deeply.  @miapatrick this is excellent imo:

    It’s interesting that you’ll reference the wife of one of the other characters…for a point, I don’t know, about how unfair television is these days towards heterosexual people, but you don’t feel her presence and attitudes undermines your argument about men being targeted. And just skip over the woman in the bar who threw them out.

    @hobbyco

    Am I the only one who is noticing that in every episode so far, the “baddy” is white and male

    You’re not alone in what you’ve noticed.  It’s called ‘creep’ when white men and good, honest women are effectively screwed out of a job because white blokes are under-valued. I’m weeping for us all 😉

    @mrswho @hobbyco The show’s history has baddies of different genders. Also, some female aliens stand for good: like Madame Vastra.   A “proper baddie” looks normal, with his suits and his yelling but underneath is completely toxic which is why I suggest he was a metaphor….When @lionheart564 the Doctor doesn’t use a gun on the spiders it’s because she has never  liked them but significantly it’s the process of guns and how quick people are to reach for them. The “moral compass” of the Doctor isn’t “off” it’s set to “normal Doctor”

    @troygorsline (thank you for saying nice things about Mum: that was really kind) Agreed. Arguments and political debates are hard as nobody’s mind is changed. I’ve had my mind changed a lot but I’m 16 so our minds are still  ‘cooking’ a bit like the Doctor. @lisa I don’t mind that the Doctor’s saying “I’m still working things out” because that’s how all the Doctors since NuWho have done things. Also, the Doctor is showing strength of purpose:  “Don’t threaten me”  and “tea at Yaz!” as well as her particular attitude towards the spiders.

    She didn’t need a Donna from The Wedding Christmas Special to say “don’t! Stop! You’ll drown the spider’s kids!”

    This Doctor has aged so she’s entitled to self-appraisal: “I’m not sure what my personality is” because her actions, emerging from her beliefs speak for her. Thank you for reading,

    Thane

    #65173
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @jimthefish

    Thanks, but I might pass on that one. As someone very wise once said: “You don’t have to stick your hand in a fire to know that it will burn.”

    Back in the morning. My morning, that is.

     

    #65174
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @thane16

    In the context of this episode, I do agree gun is not a very good way to deal with the spider. Only 2 people have experience with guy(3 if you count the Doctor) others I guess never touched a gun in their life before and one of them has motion disorder.

    I understand metaphors,but metaphors can’t take priorities over story itself.

    ps: I have a early post missing after I edit it can someone tell me where I can find it please

    #65177
    geoffers @geoffers

    @blenkinsopthebrave – As someone very wise once said: “You don’t have to stick your hand in a fire to know that it will burn.”

    i believe tolkien wrote it as: “the burned hand teaches best!”

     

    #65179
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @geoffers the sad thing is that so many people do think masculinity is that fragile… or I could say that some people’s masculinity is so fragile – or even that the nature of masculinity in a patriarchal society is by definition fragile, since a lot of people (including a lot of writers in the early modern period) were dependent on the support of patrons (who could be female, but were female patrons or patronesses, never ‘matrons’). When we define masculinity as being the protector and provider, we exclude a lot of men from it

    @nerys – he is a fantastic role model isn’t he. While grieving for the death of his wife, he focuses on trying to help her grandson. While in the segregated American south, he unquestionably declares Ryan to be his grandson. When Ryan tells him the contents of his father’s letter he is (outwardly) calm and stoical, and when Ryan tells him that he personally didn’t like his father saying that and hints that he is coming to see Graham as his ‘proper family’ he doesn’t leap at the chance to put the knife in to Ryan’s dad. This last partly because he just realised it was possible that there were giant spiders on the ceiling, but I’m still counting it. A lot of people have quite complicated family relationships, and this makes Graham a much needed example of a good man. (I’m expecting there is more to Ryan’s father than appears so far, and I can imagine someone making the point at some point that Graham came into this family just three years ago and didn’t experience what happened before that.)

     

    #65187
    Anonymous @

    I have to say, after two episodes in a row with a fair amount of focus on the USA and (to an extent) its politics, I hope the show gets away from that:

    1. As politicized as the US is now, I’m afraid this could lose audience over here.
    2. As politicized as the US is now, there’s plenty of places I can go if I want to wallow in US politics; I’d personally like Doctor Who to be a refuge from it, by and large.
    3. I’ve just always loved how defiantly British the show is, ignoring the all-too-pervasive and prevalent presence across the pond.  (Think I overdid the alliteration there…)
    4. I know US history, culture etc. pretty well, and like getting a chance to learn more about the UK.
    #65189
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    I’m wondering if this episode, despite appearances, really is part of the arch.

    I’m very disturbed by the way the Chris North character was declaring ‘this is how I become president’ while shooting the spider. We’ve moved from 50’s USA, to a 2018 businessman from the States with ambitions for the presidency. We have a Doctor absolutely and repeatedly speaking out against the use of guns, a mass murderer from the future physically prevented from carrying out acts of violence, (who seems to blame the USA civil rights movement for all this) and a race of aliens using different planets (including Earth, which is supposed to be under protected status) for trophy hunting. I think it all links up.

    #65195
    Anonymous @

    @miapatrick – Nicely reasoned!  I agree, it’s either an extended story linking up, or at least an underlying theme being explored.

    #65210
    nerys @nerys

    @geoffers Sarcasm understood! Bravo!

    @miapatrick Thank you for expounding so eloquently on how and why Graham is such a good role model, period. We can’t go too far wrong in trying to emulate him, regardless of our race, sex and other innate characteristics.

    #65212

    @lionheart564

    I think there is some misunderstandings.what mean is that racism or sexism isn’t a white thing, it’s a human thing.

    I don’t think you would find anybody here who would disagree with you. But Doctor Who is a UK show sold (until now) to largely Western markets, where the primary privilege is held by white males, so it is bound to reflect and address that. It would also have to be very careful if depicting foreign racists, since it would be wide open to charges of hypocrisy, given the UK’s less-that-stellar past on that score (also, this is a show that once used white actors in ‘yellowface’ to depict Chinese characters).

    What I want to say is that Doctor Who being a time travel sci-fi show has the potential to explore roots of racism, the ignorance and the fear of the “other”,

    Absolutely, and as @miapatrick linked recently linked, it has been doing exactly that for pretty much its entire history, both in front of and behind the camera. http://sartorialgeek.com/political-awareness-doctor-who/

    But that does not mean that it has to always do it obliquely or via metaphor. Sometimes an on-the-nose depiction is entirely appropriate.

    #65219
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @pedant

    But Doctor Who is a UK show sold (until now) to largely Western markets, where the primary privilege is held by white males, so it is bound to reflect and address that.

    Yes, you have a fair point. But it will be interesting if the show has a episode about an alternative history where social, political and economic privilege isn’t held by white but some other people due to some history being changed. I think it will make a good satire if done right.

    (also, this is a show that once used white actors in ‘yellowface’ to depict Chinese characters).

    I understand it’s offensive intellectually but don’t feel offended emotionally, it just feels ridiculous and funny. Distribution of social power can very influence how people perceive racism

    But that does not mean that it has to always do it obliquely or via metaphor. Sometimes an on-the-nose depiction is entirely appropriate.

    Yes, Doctor Who basically can tell any kind of story in all the space and time it wish to chose. It shouldn’t be set a limit on what kind of story it can’t tell or has to done it in a certain way.

    #65242

    @lionheart564

    (also, this is a show that once used white actors in ‘yellowface’ to depict Chinese characters).

    I understand it’s offensive intellectually but don’t feel offended emotionally, it just feels ridiculous and funny.

    That’s a really interesting point.

    I wonder if part of this is the relationship of slavery between black and white, and its echoing down the generations (as per Rosa) in a way that it hasn’t with Chinese (despite the fact that Chinese workers on the railroads in the US were treated as if they were slaves and were subject to extreme racism, including at least one entirely race-based massacre).

    Interesting discussion. Thanks.

    #65261
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @pedant

    despite the fact that Chinese workers on the railroads in the US were treated as if they were slaves and were subject to extreme racism, including at least one entirely race-based massacre

    I think one thing Is that I, by extend most of China national citizens, never have been in the receiving end of racism personally, because we’re the majority, we are in the dominating positions in our own society, especially for ethnic hun, so in a way we are the white in our own society, may of us even complain about our own vision of Affirmative Action.

    Also the we kind of felt disconnected for the Chinese immigrants because our struggles are very different,both in historically and personally level. Closest thing we had is western imperialism (which Britain is major part of )but that always is more national than racial and it’s old history for us own.Nowadays people either feel indifferent about it or nationalists who consider all the old western imperialism power besides US is just inferior compared to us now in terms of economic power and military power. Our most meaningful struggle is our wars with Japan which have some racial undertones in it but still overshadowed by national viewpoint.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  LionHeart564.
    #65265
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    @bluesqueakpip Definitely comedy horror. I adore spiders so was basically going “stupid humans don’t go in there” the whole time and howling with Halloween laughter.

    Lovely that the Doctor is rooting for the spiders.

    And He Who Shall Not Be Named was the truly scary thing… noo no nooo noooo nope train to nopeville we’re gonna elect someone with fewer guns and more hearts.

    Really cool and hilarious to step outside our own American insanity and see how our situation is seen from the other side of the pond…

    Why did he not get eaten by a giant spider…

    Team tardis is fabulous.

    And yes, giant honkin spiders are a theme in several of my favorite things: Middle Earth and Harry Potter.

    @juniperfish I think He Who Shall Not Be Named (Mr Greed and Trash Heaps) was a pretty good  and somewhat hilarious poke at Certain Political Figures and Trends. Stupid, selfish, narcissistic and utterly impotent.

    Wait wait, the shirt was blue, then it was red, then… I have no idea…

    caps lock, bwaaaa haaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    We can’t wait for the Doctor, or anyone else, to fix earth’s problems. We have to do it ourselves. A rather sombre message, for sombre times.

    Indeed, well said.

    @mudlark I am the crazy lady popping cups over spiders and releasing them into the garden, or simply scooting them onto a Kleenex or something and releasing…

    nice argiopes in my garden… one of my favorite pics this year…

     

    but then, it seems the crows have taken the TARDIS…

     

    (one on a lighting fixture in a Royal Farms parking lot on a trip)

     

    This is still the series I would have adored when I was twelve…

    I adore it now.

    @lionheart564 You can communicate in more than one language, awesome! I’ve only got English, though I tried to learn to count to ten in Chinese (kung fu class I dabbled in),,, hahahaha lol… I was awful. You are doing fine.

    @kevinwho indeed, fair enough, the current toddlerinchief has insulted everyone… and truly peeved the Canadians… who do not peeve easily…

    Interesting to see the varied reactions to the show so far and this episode in particular. One of the strengths of Doctor Who is its constant change with each new Doctor and showrunners and writers. We all have our favorite flavors. I happen to like this one very much, but critiques of the episodes are interesting to anyone who writes their own stories, like me.

    #65267
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @swordwhale

    Three if you count dialect as one language (Said dialect can only be understood to people who speak it, even if people who speak Mandarin as their first language can’t understand it so I do consider it a unique language)

    I also learned some Kung-Fu but never get into it, hope you can do better then me 😉

    #65276
    thane16 @thane16

    @kevinwho

    Politics has been a focus in Doctor Who since inception.

    Thane said it nicely when with “politics always matters always all of the time.” So, it’s not about wallowing in politics it’s about acknowledging what politics does for us all. The 2nd set of Hartnell episodes explored this. During the Capaldi era we had the Zygons. Some episodes with Mat Smith were written against the back-drop of U.S. politics. I don’t think Who’s shied away from that but it’s allowed children to enjoy the stories they are seeing whilst adults (or learned children, aged 13+) recognise a different layer (but it doesn’t require nuance, necessarily).

    Puro.

    #65278
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 that’s an interesting point and thanks for your perspective. It does leave the fact that British people of Chinese ethnicity would have a different emotional response to ‘yellow face’, and are sometimes on the receiving end of racism within this country. So an episode focusing on racism within China would still be problematic and not without consiquences for British people who’s family came from China and recent Chinese immigrants, and they are the people I’d expect the series to be more concerned with.

    Setting an episode in the USA about post-slavery relations between black and white people is another thing entirely – one thing that the USA and the UK have in common is a substantial population of black people who’s ancestors were slaves (for example, in the UK, the Windrush generation and their children, who are being treated appallingly right now). We both have a persistence of racist attitudes that were basically once used to justify slavery or at least the treatment of slaves. Being Christian nations there was a passage in the bible about how while the law gives you rights over slaves, God values their souls equality to your own, so… think about that. Europeans and USA citizens of European descent thought about that, and came up with loads of ideas about intellectual inferiority, brutish nature, and sub humanity. We’re still dealing with the remains of this justification, so it’s topical for British citizens. There are in fact, still, British people in South Africa with these views.

    #65281
    Anonymous @

    @thane16 – Sure; I saw the Zygon two-parter, and enjoyed the James Bond aspects, if you will, and the wonderful ending speech while ignoring the politics, because that’s how I could enjoy the episode.  I prefer the politics in SF to be more timeless than (recent) time-specific.  A matter of personal taste.

    Like everyone else, I hope this series is to my taste.  We’ll see.  I’ll put up with an occasional episode, especially if they give me something else to focus on, like the comedy in Arachnids.  I just don’t want a steady stream.

    #65282
    Anonymous @

    Oh, and what I said above was that I wanted less focus on the USA, not politics.

    #65285
    Anonymous @

    You know, thinking about this some more, it’s all a matter of what people watch the show for.  There are probably as many answers as there are viewers, but some clearly don’t watch for commentary on contemporary politics.  (Me, I watch for sense of wonder, which has been in short supply for me this season.  But any lengthy discussion of that belongs…On the Sofa?  Elsewhere, anyway.)

    #65292
    LionHeart564 @lionheart564

    @miapatrick

    I just found out Malorie Blackman, the co-writer of Rosa, has written Nought & Crosses novel series, an alternative history in which African people had gained a technological and organisational advantage over the European people, rather than the other way around, with Africans having made Europeans their slaves. I think this is the kind of story about racism I was looking for, I would love to read it, and maybe Malorie Blackman can write something similar for Doctor Who

    #65294
    Darth Valaryn @troygorsline

    @linheart564

    I have heard that Aaron McGruder (of Boondocks and Black Jesus fame) is developing a show about the American South post American Civil War. The show is about three states that were given to former slaves as reparations and all the adventures surrounding.

    I think it is slated to go on Amazon. That could be a show worth checking out for your same reasons.

    #65301
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    @lionheart564

    I dabbled in various martial arts to the point where I run from danger…. ok, limp from danger (bad knees)… I did learn one really good tai chi form and do it often… if not very well. 😉

    #65302
    swordwhale @swordwhale

    @kevinwho

    I see your points about Who delving into US politics. I perhaps just enjoy the “view from across the pond” at our silliness. Nice seeing an outside viewpoint.

    But sure, let’s see what else the season has to offer. I enjoy the weekly vacation in BBC land.

    #65311
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    @lionheart564 the book sounds very interesting, but I’m also interested at how you watch a television program that discusses the evils of post-slavery racism towards black people and think, so emphatically, ‘what I really want to watch is an episode full of black people being racist towards whites.’

    In terms of Doctor Who, the Silerian two-parter in Moffat’s first series showed a human, of asian ethnicity, making what were essentially anti-immigration arguments against the integration of a non-human earth race. The casting made it all the more thought provoking.

    One thing we both have in common is belonging to the dominant, majority ethnicity of our respective societies. I think publishing a book along those lines is one thing, an interesting thought-experiment and a clever inversion. The Rosa episode will hopefully boost sales of her books, and also provide a powerful context for what she is writing.

    But Doctor Who is (or was, and appears it is again) a mixture of sci-fi, social commentary, and history. Now in the sci-fi aspect, the social commentary can involve what can read as racist behaviour from non white characters, as in the Silurian episode. In the historical aspect, it can only do that,  as @pedant points out, by delving outside of it’s primary markets and cultural reference points. That could include China, but could still leave a bad taste in the mouth (Opium wars, for example, and Hong Kong as a British Protectorate.) And naturally the BBC is going to care more about ethnically Chinese people living in the UK, than people living in China. Who pay the licence fee.

    It’s also going to go for more straightforward approaches. Bill offending the Blue Person, humans anxious about the arrival of rival earthlings. And it has, I repeat, featured a villein of asian ethnicity, already, in this run.

    #65312
    Miapatrick @miapatrick

    Double posted so got rid of one.

     

     

    #65333
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    So basically, this episode didn’t grab me. Nothing wrong with it. Maybe not my cup of tea or maybe I just spent too long pondering Brexit and the nature of God 🙂

    Or maybe there’s such a lot of chat lately about whether “inclusivity” equals compromise that I’ve genuinely lost the will to live.

    OR… Maybe what I’m missing is the Bonkers.

    I mean, I know Chibnall isn’t Moffatt. But seriously, what percentage of Bonkerising ever came true, even in those salad days?

    So here’s my starter for ten

    1 The entire series is going to be about “little nudges.” History and the future became and will become what they are, not because of great acts of heroism and destruction, but because of the unremarkable actions of seemingly unremarkable people.

    2 Therefore, Karl and the SkyHigh Company will come back. Carl’s cry of “I AM important!” will take on new significance because, as it turns out, he is important…

    3 …Because Karl’s little “dick move” (was that your term @pedant?) kickstarts a train of events that lead to the poisoning of the dead planet in Ghost Monument, and…

    4… influence and inspire the hateful views of a child who later becomes Not Donald Trump. (Definitely your term @cathannabel.)

    5. Yas is a Stenza double agent.

    6. There’s something sinister in those custard creams…

     

    #65336
    Anonymous @

    @idiotsavon – That’s the spirit!  I’ll give it a go:

    1. The reason 13 wasn’t hurt by crashing through the train roof is because that wasn’t 13, that was an android duplicate sent by the Stenza’s enemies who we’ll meet Real Soon Now
    2. 13 is actually on the Ghost Monument planet, which is where she actually fell and landed, and the android got to the TARDIS before the real Doctor could
    3. It’s taken all those tries to get back to Sheffield because the TARDIS wants to go back to the Doctor in space, and back in time to before the inimical environment kills her
    4. Krasko is so vanilla (see what I did there) because he subliminally knew he wasn’t facing a living being in the Doctor, and so didn’t react more strongly
    5. The android 13 sent a bunch of spiders who didn’t deserve their fates to a death of suffocation and starvation because “she” (the android) keeps forgetting about life processes
    6. The android 13 accepted the rather dubious idea that toxic waste produced the spiders because toxic waste was involved in “her” creation
    7. We’ll meet the real 13 soon, and will get to enjoy as the real Doctor welcomes her duplicate with open arms, but the duplicate keeps making missteps with living creatures, allowing us to return to 12’s times of social ineptitudes

    If any of this turns out to be true I’ll be stunned, but I hope I gave you all a chuckle…

    #65337
    idiotsavon @idiotsavon

    @kevinwho Now we’re talking!

    Something that did occur to me but I hope it’s not true is that “ghost Grace” is actually “past Grace” nipping into the future to help Graham through the grieving process.

    But that would obviously be pretty terrible if it were true.

    But maybe it’s true in a way which turns out to be cooler than it sounds.

    #65338
    lisa @lisa

    @kevinwho

    If only!!   Maybe then I’d feel better  about 13.

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