BBC Approved Spoilers

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@juniperfish

I hasn’t realised it was for Children in Need but, yes, most appropriately  Doctorish.  Like you, the first thing I thought of when they announced the name of the new companion was Ruby Tuesday, and I have to wonder if the song planted the idea in RTD’s mind. The haunting lyrics could prove very appropriate

 

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@juniperfish

I hadn’t read this before posting my ‘educated guess’ but it seems we are both spot on in our thinking, at least as regards the foundling theme. Great minds and all that 😉

[WhoHar @whohar]

Some talk about Helena Bonham Carter joining Who.

Apparently RTD on R2 Jo Whiley show: “She’s [HBC] been offered and madam was too busy but not this time”

If true, who d’ya reckon she’ll be playing? Hopefully a new villain…..

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Trailer for upcoming episode “Dot and Bubble”

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

BBC trailer for upcoming episode “Rogue”

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

The cast list for the final two-parter lists Susan Twist playing a character called Susan Triad. Is not S. Triad an anagram of Tardis?

 

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave. Susan Twist is a manifestation of the Tardis! I don’t think any of us thought of that but yes, it might well be.

She was cast because of her name though.  I am certain of it.

Cheers

Janette

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave  @janetteb

The advance publicity on the Radio Times web site also refers to an organisation or corporation called Triad Technology which will unleash ‘the greatest evil of all’. So unless the Tardis has gone to the dark side, I’m now imagining the Susan Twist character as the sinister CEO of a corporation which has perhaps taken over from Villengaard after the latter was destroyed. After all, she was the face of the evil ambulances.

Or – going out to the tip of a very slender limb here – she’s Ruby’s mother 😈

[janetteB @janetteb]

@mudlark I suspect you might be “one the money” with that theory. Having her repeated appearances is akin to Bad Wolf randomly showing up in every episode. It would be similar so in keeping with RTD’s writing “tropes”. I still think she was cast because of the name. It does mean that there is no Susan reference though so once again I am disappointed. Well one day…

Cheers

Janette

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@blenkinsopthebrave

The cast list for the final two-parter lists Susan Twist playing a character called Susan Triad. Is not S. Triad an anagram of Tardis?

Oh my! That’s a good spot!

I like the idea about Susan T being a CEO of some dark corporation (or one of the pantheon of gods let into our universe by the Doctor invoking the salt superstition in Wild Blue Yonder)  – as @janetteb says, that fits with RTD’s previous. (Doesn’t rule her out as Susan gone to the dark side though, traumatised by being abandoned by Hartnell Dr in a 22nd century warzone!)

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

BBC plot description for “Empire of Death”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0020krd#:~:text=The%20Doctor%20has%20lost%2C%20his,except%2C%20perhaps%2C%20one%20woman.

“his ageless enemy”…?

[janetteB @janetteb]

@blenkinsopthebrave thanks for sharing the link. Just because of the list on the Guardian of the most villainous villains in children’s tv on the Guardian today I thought, (and hope not) Davros. He isn’t really timeless but there have been no daleks this series, which has been refreshing hence hoping it isn’t Davros. Nice to have a change from the same old same old enemies.

Cheers

Janette

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

<p style=”text-align: left;”>@janetteb</p>
You really don’t think The Babies get deported to Skaro once they rock up at DuPlushie World?

’I am your new Nanny. I have obtained new strollers for. You will obey me…’

[janetteB @janetteb]

@ps1l0v3y0u You’re right. Must be Feathers McGraw then. The ultimate baddie. (at least according to the Guardian)

I do like the idea of stroller Daleks though.

Cheers

Janette

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

If S Triad leads us to Tardis, and if Triad leads us to Technology, then (with a bit of a twist) perhaps Susan Technology heads us back to…Sutekh.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @janetteb

hmmm. Some Michael taking there, perchance? Yes. Sutekh qualifies as emperor of death any day of the week. I have wondered if the Monks had something to do with the Osirans… all those big triangular things.

I admit the 3 tribute thing has me stumped… and filled with dread. Writers… Russ would want the best: Holmes, Boucher, Moffat. Must be Holmes for 3, therefor Autons or Carnival… this sounds like Carnival. No Alpha Centauri please. No primords either. Maybe Kate in an eyepatch.

Different tack… did anyone ever explain The Watcher from Logopolis? (the One Who Waits??) Why that form of regeneration? Looked like the reverse of a bigeneration to me. Could be Doctor Ruth in her astral kit?! The only other unobserved regeneration was 2 > 3… lots of whizzing around and oh dearie me. A very decrepit Troughton, working for the Galifrey gang was nearly turned into an Androgum… did that version of 2 eventually become Ruth??

We’ve seen the mugshot. That’s REG that is. Holmes kicked off the script for ‘The Ultimate Foe’ which seems to echo recent hyperbole. Unfortunately Pip and Jane finished that story off. Please, no megabyte modems…

Genesis Lynea had me excited (playing ‘Harriet’ on Saturday) but she’s apparently as real as Susan Twist. I thought ‘Genesis?’ What kind of name is that? Not quite Leon Ny Taiy but ‘Genesis’ speaks for itself. Lynea… anagram of Alyen???

The origin of The Doctor???

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Just re-watched the first episode of 4-part Tom Baker story “The Pyramids of Mars” (1975). A great show! It introduces (but does not reveal) Sutekh. What a great show! And filmed on the estate then owned by Mick Jagger. If only the Doctor and Sarah Jane had a white cat with them. (You have to remember “The Mummy” with Brendon Fraser and Rachel Weisz to get that allusion.) After dinner, episode 2.

It seems obvious now that Sutekh is where we are leading to with the 15th and Ruby.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave looking at the description … the “Doctor’s ageless foe” has to be someone he’s encountered before… could it be Master territory? Could Mrs Flood be involved in this or be part of Division…? 🤔

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

Just watched all of “Pyramid of Mars”. Fabulous. And it now seems obvious that we are are going to see or hear of Sutekh in the next episode.

If anyone out there subscribes to Britbox, I strongly recommend watching the show.

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@thane16

Having just seen the whole Tom Baker show (above) it seems like it has to be Sutekh.

Of course, if I was to add up all the times I had been wrong…

[WhoHar @whohar]

@ps1l0v3y0u @blenkinsopthebrave

As much as I’d love to see this, Sutekh is 4th Doc though, and we’ve been told it’s something to do with the 3rd.

So, I’m going to bring back the O-word again. Yes, you’ve guessed it: Ogrons. From Day of the Daleks (written by Louis Marks, with Terence Dicks as Script Editor).  And then in Frontier in Space, written by Malcolm Hulke, with Dicks again as Script Editor.  This latter show also featured the Delgado Master….hmm maybe @blenkinsopthebrave you will get your wish.

I’ve given absolutely zero thought as to how they could be used however.

Of course, if I was to add up all the times I had been wrong

Being wrong’s just the bits in-between.

 

[syzygy @thane16]

@blenkinsopthebrave As you mentioned Sutekh I did some reading, having not recalled ANY of those adventures & boy did Sutekh get around! So that’s a great spot @blenkinsopthebrave et. al.

There was mention of a King Nocturne, though,  which is interesting -considering Maestro’s involvement. Certainly Sutekh fits as the One Who Waits & those here who know a lot about old Who have spotted similarities across the decades. Apparently this “destroyer”  known also as Satan (see The Satan Pit) was imprisoned in The Void -and we know RTD’s partial to a void ship…

[syzygy @thane16]

@whohar well if it’s the 3rd Doctor -then it’ll be something else entirely. I didn’t see your post -apologies.

It seemed to cross over with my response to Mr Blenks.

Either way our wait will not be long…. 🧐

[syzygy @thane16]

Have people seen the preview (from 15 hours ago) on YouTube which has the Doctor asking who “the blonde woman is?” 2 mins long.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave @thane16 @whohar

As I observed on the Chord page, Maestro’s post music nuclear winter was straight out of Pyramids of Mars. Fantastic story: for sheer sci fi chutzpah, design, humour and giant red syringes, beaten only by Robots of Death.

If anyone is binging 4, I recommend Ark, Genesis, Pyramids, Android Invasion (very underrated) & Seeds… I’m rewatching Season 14… of course apart from Robots, there’s Deadly Assassin and Talons; Season 15 has Fang Rock, Fendahl and Sunmakers, but some real clunkers too.

I bet you the 3 tribute is just someone being eaten by a chair.

[syzygy @thane16]

et. al…… I suddenly remembered the destroyer or the beast which is a supernatural being (RTD’s time with Satan/ ghosts etc) and Kate saying UNIT’S time was focussing more than ever before on the supernatural … in 73 Yards.

[syzygy @thane16]

this ain’t my idea: on other places I’ve read ideas about S TRIAD creating a business with a Tardis and maybe it unleashes … hell? But in my opinion, what makes THAT idea sensible is Mrs Flood’s “never seen a Tardis before?” AND  that RTD has presaged this specifically with both a  biregeneration  and two tardis’ ….

also the  2 tardis timestream in Twice Upon Time led to havoc and snow falling…

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Only just caught up with the true meaning of Su(santriad)tekh(nology)

How long would Sutekh be trapped in that time corridor?? How old was Ruby revealed to be in Boom?

Wasn’t there a big ruby in Pointy Thing of Mars?

Why was Sutekh so goddamn onery? Was he a foundling? Horus never loved me anyway.

PoM masterstroke were the many potential solutions, all thwarted until 4 deployed time… but Sutekh has a lifespan; he’s not ageless, can’t be the Oldest One. I’m sure Ashildr and The Doctor (in confession dial) or The Great Intelligence, waited longer. And I don’t think The Meep would get away with calling him Boss.

I doubt if everything is going to be tied up this season. Why exactly did 14 live on? As a distillation of his dark side between the 12th and final generation? Wasn’t the Hand Doctor the final receptacle of Post Time War woobieness? The Doctor most like The Loon: ‘never dying! Never dying! Never dying! Bwahahahaha!’

I love a good bwahahaha. The rest of Prisoner Cell Block H was a bit camp tho.

Sutekh might be another piece on the board deployed by the gameplayer.

Now… gameplayers? Chess? Fenric?

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@thane16

Could Mrs Flood be involved in this or be part of Division…? 🤔

Initially she thought it was just an old police box which somebody, probably Abdul, had planted on the footpath to annoy her, and she only recognised it as a Tardis when it dematerialised in front of her. So at some time in the past she has certainly had some previous encounter with a Tardis or Tardises and so, presumably, with at least one Time Lord. *

I don’t really see her as an alien or particularly powerful, but if she is alien, she has been kicking around on Earth long enough to have seen police boxes when they were a familiar sight on the streets of Britain.

* I have a feeling someone has already made this point. If so, I apologise to whoever it was.

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@blenkinsopthebrave  @whohar  @ps1l0v3y0u  @thane16

I agree with Whohar that Sutekh (aka Set in the Egyptian pantheon) is probably not involved. In next weeks copy of the Radio Times magazine there is an interview with RTD in which he says that there are several past episodes which might have some bearing on this year’s finale, but none of them are from the 4th Doctor’s era.

As listed they are Spearhead from Space (3rd Doctor, Autons);  Badwolf/The Parting of the Ways (10th Doctor); The Bells of StJohn (11th Doctor); A Good Man Goes to War (11th Doctor, River, Amy’s baby); and The Church on Ruby Road. The Bells of St John might have some bearing on the mystery of Susan Triad, since it, too, features an industrial corporation with an evil boss. Perhaps Susan Triad is not just head of Triad Technology – and perhaps the Boss referred to by the Meep and/or Rogue, but a member of the pantheon of Immortals (?)  Such might explain Susan Twist’s ability to  insert herself in various guises into all the episodes so far in this Season.

As for The Church on Ruby Road, that was obviously going to figure largely in the resolution of the mystery of Ruby’s origins. In the interview RTD said that it would be helpful to viewers to re-watch the scenes at the church and take careful note of where everyone was and the directions in which they were looking. In consequence I got side tracked yesterday and wasted several hours attempting to do just that, trying to make a map of the church and churchyard and plot the paths of the cloaked and hooded woman and the Doctor.  The map was easy enough, though it took several attempts because my spatial sense isn’t all that it could be, but the relative locations of the two characters didn’t seem to add up entirely, as if there were several points of disconnection, or more than two characters.

 

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@mudlark @blenkinsopthebrave @thane16 @whohar

Well, unless that’s misdirection… I mean, is Russ actually going to say Pyramids of Mars or Ultimate Foe? Though the latter had Mel. And carrot juice. Ultimate Foe ain’t gonna be a big draw is it?

Autons… thought it had to be Holmes; something to do with what the TL’s did to the tardis? Dematerialisation Codes wasn’t it? Trying to fix it, The Doctor manages to transport himself into a parallel universe. Who do we know who’s in a parallel universe don’t we children?

Or is 3 not 3? We never saw become 3. He just fell out of the tardis in Spearhead.

Or is it just boring old UNIT?

Good man goes to war… babies substituted by gangers? That’s a significant one. Where did the Doctor find out about programmable flesh? The Kovarian Faction and the Church? Why DID the tardis blow up?? Also the Doctor seems to have won… then loses spectacularly. Booo!

Bells of Saint John: The Great Intelligence! That’s REG that is. Who gave Clara the number? We think it’s the Loon, or the same person who got him on The Orient Express. Why do we believe anything in Who? But a companion nearly lost. And she thought the tardis was a snogging booth.

Parting of the ways/Badwolf. Game shows! Jack gets to live, not forever but for a very long time. Rogue knows who 10/14 is. Important blonde person now in parallel universe leaves clues all over. Doctor comes up with a rubbish plan but is saved by his companion.

Ruby Road… who leaves babies in the snow? Who left the Doctor for an ethically challenged genetic scientist to find. That’s AMAZING! On such peculiar circumstance does the fate of the universe hang. Or was he stolen? Are you really going to believe what the Loon tells you about Tecteun? River was stolen too. Mrs Flood may have a very blue door. Carla is an anagram of Clara. Lulubelle 3 was the cow on the cover of Atom Heart Mother.

The snow. The GI thought snow was cool…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

One last thing…

The Vlinx looks more than a little Osiran…

[syzygy @thane16]

@mudlark you created a MAP?

wow!

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

Who left The Doctor for the ethically challenged genetic challenged scientist to find?

Ted: There was a woman who left her baby on the doorstep for a moment. I thought for a moment we’d have to look after it over Christmas and get into all kinds of mad japes. It would have been very funny.

Dougal: Maybe not that funny though, Ted.

Ted: No. No, you’re right.

Douglas: Not unless we called him Brendan!

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@ps1l0v3y0u

The Bells of St John: The Great Intelligence. Yes! I hadn’t followed that clue far enough.   So, Susan Triad, not as the Big Bad, but an agent of the Big Bad, whoever that turns out to be.

@thane16

It’s only a sketch map, but I’ve had plenty of practice. For a field archaeologist and excavator it comes with the territory. First an excavation site has to be surveyed and a grid marked out, which in turn is tied in to the national map grid. Then all the archaeological features and layers uncovered have to be plotted on to the grid – and if it’s a multi-period site with deep stratigraphy that means lots and lots of site plans. Field archaeology also involves quite a bit of surveying on site, not to mention the preliminary mapping of features recorded in aerial photographs onto large scale O.S. maps. The accurate plotting of the latter can be a bit tricky, because the viewpoint is always to some extent oblique so parallax is involved, but it’s fun 🙂

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@ps1l0v3y0u Mwuhuhuh! Brilliant 😀

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@mudlark – a MAP??? You’re amazing! Can you share??

We’re assuming that the hooded figure is Ruby’s mum. We’re also assuming there’s only one hooded figure… just thinking about the pointy one when the Doctor remembers that night.

There were Goblins there that night. Who had apparently learned how to time travel. Or did someone give them a hand?

 

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@thane16 @Mudlark

Mrs Flood – agreed. When she first saw the TARDIS she didn’t know what it was. But she did at the end. So at some point (that we haven’t seen) in The Church on Ruby Road she’s had a Doctor/Time Lord encounter/TARDIS trip!  Maybe when she dropped off her baby Ruby at the Church on Xmas Eve…??! So is Ruby not from this time period? Is she actually a very young (or regenerated, or reborn) River…?! (Snow/River/tears…?)

[ScaryB @scaryb]

@thane16 Great spot about TWO TARDISes… or many, many more of them given RTD’s comment in an interview that ALL the previous incarnations of the Doctor have reincarnated with the bigeneration. Are we going to have a MEGA multi doctor story with ALL known previous incarnations?!! (RTD: OK we’ve had 2 Doctor stories, 3 Doctor stories, 5 Doctor stories… hold my beer!!)

[Mudlark @mudlark]

@scaryb

Can you share??

Now you ask, I wish I could, but at present it exists as a series of sketches on scrap paper. By the time I made a clean, clear copy it would probably be too late to be helpful. As it is, my eyelids are drooping and, much as I would like to, I’m not going to be able to wait up until the episode drops on i-player. There was a time when I could remain awake and lively until all hours, but those days are finally gone, alas!

As for Mrs Flood, I think her experience of a Tardis or Tardises* goes back a lot further than the events in The Church on Ruby Road. So when she first failed to recognise the police box as a Tardis it wasn’t because  she hadn’t encountered one before, but that she hadn’t seen one in that particular disguise. Until she saw it dematerialise, all she saw was an old police box such as she had seen on the streets of London when she was young.  Perhaps at some point there has been  another Time Lord with his/her own Tardis, meddling with the affairs of Earth and taking earthlings such as her on trips in his/her Tardis. It could, of course, have been Clara and Me in their American diner Tardis. Not the Master, I hope, for her sake if nothing else.

 

* If Tardis was a word of Greek origin perhaps the plural would have been Tardoi, which is a lot less clumsy-sounding than Tardises, but it’s an acronym, so … 🙁

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

@mudlark

Re: Mrs Flood and the potential of an another Tardis in her past. The Meddling Monk, perhaps?

In fact, I am starting to envisage a spin-off series of the travels of Mrs Flood and the Meddling Monk…

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

One last punt before the legend is revealed.

& I Player and broadband keeps freezing… I’ll watch in the morning…

The Vlinx; V-links; Valeyard-links???

[janetteB @janetteb]

@mudlark That is a good point, re’ Mrs Flood and the police box/Tardis. She did not realise that the police box was a Tardis until it dematerialised there fore she knows what a Tardis is but does not recognise the police box. Given that the Tardis only took that form when Hartnell/Doc arrived in London, at least according to pre-Chib’ lore, she might have also known a previous incarnation of the Doctor. I would put my money, however on it being a different Time Lord she is familiar with. (And hopefully not the Master.) I would love to see a return of the Meddling Monk or the Mind Robber but think that unlikely.

Whatever the outcome, and seeing Craig’s comment in the new thread I fear it might well be Daleks and/or Davros who is the big bad, it will probably not be as much fun or as inspired our the bonkers theories that have been explored here. It has been so much fun, reading everyone’s posts since this series kicked off and seeing so many old faces again, as well as some new ones, always welcome. Just like old times.

Cheers

Janette

 

[nerys @nerys]

I’ve been checking in every now and then, trying to be careful to avoid spoilers and failing miserably. But I have enjoyed reading everyone’s comments. As @janetteb says, feels like old times. I’m still waiting for the specials DVDs to arrive at the library!

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

BBC trailer for Empire of Death

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

While it is very short, two things stand out: the image at the beginning looks like an evil, Sutekh-controlled(?) TARDIS. And who is standing by the controls? Second, the ever so brief clip of a figure in an orange clock walking towards a TARDIS (good or evil?) on a devastated landscape.

 

 

[blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave]

That is…an orange cloak.

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@blenkinsopthebrave

‘looks like an evil, Sutekh controlled, Tardis.’

This is a bit Manichaean for my blood… ‘a less good or compromised Tardis,’ I might accept.

Sutekh and the Osirans of PoM were not (unless 4 was very stupidly wrong or RTD is rewriting canon) immortal. Nor should they exist outside linear (or wibbley wobbley) time as do DS9’s Prophets. Well, anyone can make mistakes but nothing looks more stupid than a Pah Wraith. Even when confronted by The Beast, 10 realised there was nothing there. To tell the truth I didn’t like that ep either.

Black and White Guardians? Meh.

Consciousness creates morality, that is the question: what is good, wherever you want to take that? Evolution (or manufacture) creates consciousness.

Something from outside??? Hmmm. Azimov (Foundation and Earth or The Gods Themselves) Star Trek (Catspaw) tried. Has anyone done effectively done that?

The narrative, inevitably, becomes very other. If the weird looks like us, what is weird? The threat inevitably becomes universally existential. Another story-telling meh.

Tardises would seem to be sentient machines. Some may be better than others… does that make one ‘good’, another ‘less good’??

We know there are 2 more or less identical Tardises: saw that in Giggle (and why show us?)

Do not duplicate entities unnecessarily (why thank you Mr Ockham)

 

 

[JimTheFish @jimthefish Time Lord]

@blenkinsopthebrave —

That figure at the console looks very like Harriet Arbinger to me (am I the only one less than impressed by UNIT’s recruitment screening process? Next we’ll find out that Dave Ross and Maurice Aster are also working there.)

And orange cloaks … lots of suggestiveness there. Prydonian chapter of the Academy and wasn’t the Timeless Child clad in orange. (Also the Doc has worn rather a lot of orange this series.) And Horus/Osiris being the Sun God would suggest that his people might wear sun-like orange. (Or they could just be masons, I suppose.)

[ps1l0v3y0u @ps1l0v3y0u]

@jimthefish @blenkinsopthebrave

UNIT recruitment?

Philby, Burgess, McLean and Bill Haydon???

And I know I missed the reason for Shirley’s absence… at CERN (possibly)?? Salt and Shake Singularity anyone…?

… but has anyone yet explained The Vlinx? V? Link?

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