BBC Approved Spoilers

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  • #44210
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    Somehow I can’t see Missy going for weird green. ūüôā

    It’s probably just that when they tested the black costume next to Peter Capaldi, they decided the colour schemes were too similar.

    But it’s interesting. Having her mention a daughter positioned her Triple Goddess role as ‘Mother’, not The Other One. That’s emphasised by having the Doctor earlier refer to her as ‘The Wicked Stepmother’. Oh, well, as long as he doesn’t call her ‘Mildred’.

    #44211
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    No, the hissing at Missy is an old British pantomime tradition; the audience are expected to hiss the actor playing the villain. In fact, the actor playing the villain judges their success by the loudness of the hissing and booing.

    She acknowledges as much by the bow and hanky wave. The pantomime villain has taken the stage – to be superseded by the real villain of this story, as Colony Sarff enters.

    #44212
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip Yeah – Its been like you said a strange day with all these serpent/
    snake tropes today. Plus the suggestion @craig regarding the Mara with its telepathic
    abilities. Its showing up everywhere!

    #44213
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip Ok about the hissing. But its still hissing like a snake. We have
    rattle snakes around where I live and if you get too close they always hiss.
    Its a warning sound of danger too.

    #44215
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip Missy also mentions flirting is her traps so wouldn’t that be
    the seductress aspect of the triple goddess? Mother, seductress and the elderly
    woman who is wise but malicious. That is definitely our Missy.

    #44216
    Anonymous @

    @lisa isn’t purple the colour of warning -in the first series of the re-boot I believe the Doctor and Rose followed an ambulance ship and the Tardis identified it with a mauve warning: of course, to be exact, whilst Gomez is wearing purple, it certainly aint mauve!

    @mudlark never doubted you for a moment: I have seen the trailer multiple times but¬†haven’t paused it often¬†enough to see the gentleman holding the book. Good grief, girl, you’re good!

    Yes, I think, when looking at the ‘village’ from a far, it looks like a ‘created’ space, a simulation?

    The crosses look ‘added’ -indeed, everything looks out of place, to me.

    Indeed some churches had/have crosses with diagonal pieces across the top of the upright in Bohemia¬† -now, these churches, in my ignorance, could well be Russian Orthodox (that should have occurred to me) or due to strife and changes, some churches were specifically altered -but the cupolas seem to be more pomegranate shaped (in Russia also, as well as in the Eastern states). I travelled a lot through these places and lived there for several years but my neck’s not long enough and I wasn’t concentrating as well as I should -so no doubt I’ve got it all wrong and backward. But yes, i’ll agree this is supposed to look Russian -and then there’s the poster of Lenin. I actually haven’t seen that or any poster! I think my eyes are deteriorating rapidly.

    Still, onwards!

    Abandoned military base or derelict WW2 installations? ooh! But that sounds a bit exciting, ‘Lark?

    @papermoon yes, I think it’s possible that the Doctor must appear to be dead in order to convince the antagonist and to realise further information… I wondered about the creature who says “nothing you can do” as well.

    I didn’t place him in the mural -I must have another look! At first it occurred to me this creature is the one in the coffin -but obviously not: that makes zero sense and the coffin is too small: therefore for humans. Interesting that the undertaker @mudlark has identified (with his sash) is therefore connected to the coffin.

    Now, the base is under a lake as the dam in the trailer broke as opposed to being under the sea? I would think?

    I’m back to my vodiki spirits who hang about lakes, creeks and freshwater¬†‘holes’ inviting their victims for a dip! These spirits, I’m sure, also exist in Russian literature.

    #44219
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa

    Oh, yeah, the hissing is definitely a foreshadowing for Colony Sarff. It’s just that I don’t think Missy is the real villain for Series 9. She’s the pantomime villain; the Wicked Witch/Stepmother.

    Because, in her completely loopy mind, this death and destruction really is just a game she’s playing with the Doctor. And what we saw in the Magician’s Apprentice/Witch’s Familiar is how she behaves when it’s too serious for games – and how fast she reverts to the game-playing once the danger is past.

    #44220
    Anonymous @

    @lisa @bluesqueakpip

    I’m utterly stumped by the Triple Goddess symbolism? In fact, what is a triple goddess? Apologies, I’m dead ignorant about this! (I’m assuming she’s a mother, grandmother and a daughter or does she have a daughter -and does that refer to the ‘triple’ goddess part?)

    :shuffling back to my dumb-y corner:

    @blenkinsopthebrave It was great watching that first episode of The Nightmare Man and the similarities with Under The Lake are interesting.

    #44221
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave I found the series even more interesting because of the parallels
    to the Who episode. I saw quite a few but I’ve been noticing parallels between other
    stories too. Always fun whenever that happens!! Have you noticed all the snake references?
    Today I’ve been coming across lots of those.

    #44222
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @purofilion¬†¬†¬† The triple goddess has three aspects: the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone (aka ‘ the other one’).¬† In other words, the three aspects of the feminine.¬† I would have to check, but I think that this is tied in to moon symbolism – the new, full and old moon.

    The malevolent water spirit seems to be pretty universal.  In Cheshire, where my mother grew up, there was one known as Ginny Green Teeth, who lurked in pools and would drag unwary children to their doom.  In north eastern England I believe that there is a similar tradition of a river dwelling hag known as Peg Powler.

    #44225
    lisa @lisa

    @bluesqueakpip There is a Greek myth about 3 goddesses and a golden apple.
    Unfortunately Missy ate a red apple in the trailer so I guess that wont fit.
    Oh well lol

    #44226
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @lisa – the Triple Goddess is generally portrayed in fiction as Maiden, Mother and … the Other One.

    Clara is definitely the Maiden – has been kept as The Maiden, in fact, by Danny’s death. Missy, we’ve just discovered, is genuinely a Mother (in every sense of the word). She’s also defined by the Doctor as Wicked Stepmother.

    And by the Doctor going to Ohila for advice, Ohila is placed as the Other One in the Wise Woman aspect.

    @purofilion – yes, mauve is a warning colour in the Whoniverse. Purple is also a lordly colour (originally due to the sheer cost of the dye), and the colour of sorrow, mourning and penitence. So I suppose Missy could have picked it because it shares some symbolism with black, or because it seems to be a Time Lord colour (judging by Arcadia, anyway).

    The Drum is mentioned as being under a lake in the opening scene, so yes, it’s not an undersea base. An underlake base. And now I’m thinking of Drake’s Drum – which is the wrong country (England) but fits with the idea of an after-death signal.

    Okay, they’ve named the base The Drum because it’s a signal drum. So either somebody knows what the base really is, to name it that, or this mental earworm has been working away for a long time.

    #44228
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bluesqueakpip   Naively, I assumed that The Drum referred to the circular plan of the installation, at least in the thinking of those who named it.  It certainly does fit the theme of reverberations and signals, though.

    #44229
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    @lisa, @purofilion

    While ¬†there are clearly many references to draw on, as the erudite @mudlark and @bluesqueakpip, among others, have drawn our attention to, I am currently, in the words of Rocky the Road Island Red in “Chicken Run”, brewing up a double yolker of a theory of what might happen in the next episode, in light of my obsession with “The Nightmare Man”.

    But I do not want to be precipitous. After all, I am only on the first bottle of red…

    #44230
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @mudlark and @purofilion

    Broadly, Ronald Hutton would argue that the Triple Goddess is really the invention of 20th Century archaeologists and historians with an overactive imagination. The neo-pagans then picked it up and ran with it ūüėČ Yes, it’s usually tied to Moon symbolism. Everything is usually tied to Moon symbolism. But even if it was the result of an overactive imagination, it does seem to pick up on the three ways women tend to be regarded, so probably an imagination doing some important overtime.

    There are certainly lots of triples in ancient religion, but it’s doubtful there was a specific, widespread understanding of a ‘Triple Goddess’ in the Ancient World. However, this is the Whoniverse – and frankly, the Triple Goddess is certainly incredibly popular amongst fantasy writers. If Steven Moffat wants to play around with some kind of archetypal Maidens, Mothers (yes, Missy is definitely a Mother) and Other Ones, he’s perfectly free to do so.

    #44231
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bluesqueakpip  @purofilion   I agree that the Triple Goddess as we have just defined it is largely a modern concept, although I would argue that it is anthropologists rather than archaeologists and historians who are responsible (I feel bound to stand up for my profession, after all).   The idea does, however, have some slight grounding in archaeological evidence.

    On the Germanic and Celtic fringes of the Roman world there was what seems to have been a cult involving a trio of female figures, known as matres or matrones who are depicted in numerous stone carvings, sometimes with votive inscriptions or prayers.  The link is pretty tenuous, though.

     

    #44232
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @mudlark

    It’s okay. You can have your leg back now.

    ūüėČ

    #44233
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark @bluesqueakpip

    Thank you for the wonderful explanations: I now have inched up toward ‘smarter.’ ūüôā A little bit, mind.

    So we have in one interpretation of the Triple Goddess: Clara as maiden; Missy as mother and Ohila as the ‘other.’

    At first I thought the implication was that Missy contained within herself the three elements of the ‘Triple Goddess’ -but you’re referencing the three main women in the recent stories.

    Indeed, ‘Lark the water spirits are ‘cross country’ -the Indigenous Peoples of Australia and the Torres Strait have¬† frightening stories about water holes and¬†spirits -some¬†are kind¬†and exist to show small children the way home to their mothers. Others exist as stories to warn children about the dangers of being far from home during twilight hours and still others explain why children mysteriously go missing in the first place.

    @bluesqueakpip yes, royal purple was expensive as you say, due to the dye. The Time Lady as lordly and aristocratic,¬†wearing deep purple¬†-remembering the master’s lands being extensive –¬†would make a great deal of sense. I also think, though, as has been suggested, that the colour looks so much better than ‘plain’ black & creates a distinct and colourful contrast.

    I don’t suppose it could be as simple as that?

    I think Pertwee wore a cranberry coloured velvet smoking jacket? One of those: “I’m going to nick whatever I can get my hands on.” Much like what Smith did in The Eleventh Hour -a shirt, jacket and a number of ties, finally deciding on¬†“bow ties as cool!” from which he could riff for the next three years ūüôā

    For some reason, silly things occurred to m as a child. When does the Doctor wash his clothes or do his dry cleaning? ūüôā I noticed the Smith Doctor having at least 2 shirts and now Twelve has t-shirts without the overtly formal adapted costume with white shirt, no tie and satin, red-lined¬†jacket.

    I’m expecting trainers next!

    #44234
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark

    Ah, but archaeologists are historians, no? ūüôā

    Were you in the fortunate position to have an archaeology dept as separate to the History faculties?

    At one point, the University of NSW co-opted Archaeology into both geology and geomorphology which annoyed my brother no end. His computing skills, second to none, meant that his fellow lecturers begged him to complete timetabling for each sub discipline causing irate members of each dept to come banging on his door at 9 pm demanding equivalent hours with other disciplines and tutorial suites. It was, basically, hell Under the Lake ūüôā

    (geology needed showers for waste and toxic areas and the Health and Safety Depts inserted showers¬† but thought sinks and plug holes weren’t at all necessary and so….floods and lakes)

    #44235
    lisa @lisa

    @Blueaqueakpip Now that you have introduced me to how to identify the 3 goddesses
    I’m guessing this will be relevant thru the series. So the question for me is what it
    means in the rest of the series. I think the show runners will do something very interesting
    with it. This whole series seems from the start to have lots more twists, turns and twirls
    and so far it all feels better interconnected by all these links. At least for me. ūüôā

    #44236
    lisa @lisa

    I had another @ issue and that was for @bluesqueakpip

    #44245
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    The snake all the way at least back to the Epic of Gilgamesh represented immortality since it seemed to have a new life after shedding its skin.

    The snake swallowing its tale could represent various astronomical phenomena including some of the effects around a black hole.

    Orion would be noted from any direction in the local area of stars around Earth’s sun because of the red giant Betelgeuse which is speculated to go supernova fairly soon, at least relative to cosmological time. I believe Betelgeuse has enough mass to form a black hole after going supernova, but of course I am no expert on such matters.

    #44248
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Here’s my bonkers theory using Norse mythology.

    The great snake Jormungand is the wormhole, the Einstein Rosen bridge, that threatens to swallow whatever goes into the black hole and send it to another dimension, such as the antimatter dimension of Omega. The Fenris Wolf is the black hole, perhaps one formed after the supernova of Betelgeuse, that seeks to swallow the stars, the planets, and the moons. That is the dark.

    In Norse Mythology Fenris was bound by a magic chain made of things that do not have overt existence. Translated to science, the black hole’s singularity was bound by mathematical equations similar to those shown in the movie Interstellar. Also in mythology a sword was stuck in Fenris’ mouth to keep its jaws from closing. That is the sword.

    To get Fenris’ cooperation the god Tyr was required to place a hand in Fenris’ mouth on penalty of losing it if he would break his oath and have the magic chain be a trap. And so Tyr lost his right hand and became an oathbreaker, perhaps an analogy to the Hand of Omega. That is the forsaken.

    #44252
    Anonymous @

    @jphamlore

    Oh thank God, Gilgamesh: this I know.

    Now, onto Fenris and Tyr, no, that I’d not heard before: this is quite astonishing. You seem to have all your ducks in a row!

    The Einstein Rosen Bridge is the one thing I don’t have to Wikipedia to death!

    #44259
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bluesqueakpip¬†¬† ūüėÜ

    @purofilion

    Ah, but archaeologists are historians, no?

    In the opinion of¬†some historians I have known, archaeologists are a lower form of life – grubby peasants fossicking around in the dirt¬† ūüôā

    Anyone studying the archaeology of a historical period needs to know how to use historical sources, especially primary documents, and to understand historical method.  For those specialising in prehistory such skills are less useful, since by definition there are no primary historical records.  Nineteenth century antiquarians were generally gentlemen educated chiefly in the classics, and they had a tendency to interpret all the prehistoric artefacts they found in the light of the accounts of barbarians written by Greek and Roman authors, but while those accounts have some limited use in relation to the peoples of Europe in the later Iron Age, they need to be used with caution.

    The Archaeology department at Edinburgh where I studied was and is indeed a completely separate department, although it had originated as an offshoot of Art History; during the time I was there, and for some time after, the two were both housed in the same rather cramped late Georgian house (both departments were small, with only a handful of honours students per year).

    Honours courses in the Edinburgh Faculty of Arts were to some extent more like the liberal arts courses in American universities, in that students were required to take at least two additional first year courses in other subjects.  We archaeologists were lumbered with four ancillary subjects, including first year and Intermediate Honours Art History and two years of history, though for the first year course we could choose between British, European or Ancient.  The second, intermediate Hons.  course was tailored for us, in that combined the history and archaeology of the post-Roman period in Europe up to the 11th century.

    At the time there were very few universities offering first degrees in Archaeology, and the two rated most highly were Cambridge and Edinburgh, where the departments were both headed by very eminent prehistorians.  Now there are many, offering a wide range of both general and specialised courses, some separate and some jointly with such subjects as history and social anthropology.

    But all this is way off topic, so I will yield the floor to the bonkers theorists.

     

     

     

    #44260
    Pufferfish @pufferfish

    Whoa there! I can barely keep up with the volume of bonkers. Just popped in after following a bunch of Triple Goddess examples all over the Internet to offer the Horae as a group of goddesses, because there are 12 of them (in some myths) and they’re representative of the hours in the day, also *time*. And since there have been official interviews saying Pompeii might be a thing again this series, I keep looking at Greek and Roman myths as blueprints.

    #44261
    janetteB @janetteb

    @mudlark. The history of archaeological studies in the UK might be off topic but still very interesting. When I first really became interested in archaeology I read a book by Mike Pitts about Stonehenge primarily but he covered the history of the archaeology of the area which was every bit as interesting as the main topic being discussed.

    And just to try and steer this back to “on topic” umm, oh drat. I give up. Archaeology, evil corporations, military and mysterious buried objects are common Sci fi tropes. That is as close as I can get.

    Cheers

    Janette

    #44262
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @janetteb¬†¬†¬† Any attempt to understand Stonehenge has to take the prehistoric features of the surrounding landscape into account, and modern techniques such as ground penetrating radar are now revealing much more about that than was ever discovered in the past by fieldwork and excavation.¬† No archaeologist seems yet to have discovered the chamber beneath the stones where the Pandorica was housed, but maybe it is masked by some kind of exotic alien cloaking device. ūüôā

    As for the treatment of archaeologists by writers of science fiction and horror stories, I can only say that they seem to have some very peculiar ideas about what we get up to!  I have in my time been responsible for the discovery of some remarkable artefacts but, sadly, all of them had a rational explanation and none of them, so far as I am aware, was cursed or attributable to alien intervention.

    #44263
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark

    it sounds rather cramped indeed. Certainly in the ’80s here in Brisbane, there was very very little happening in archaeological terms. A ‘young country’ being cited as one lame excuse.

    @pufferfish

    Well, there is a clock in the credits -Clara is born under one (I keep ringing that damn bell, don’t I?)

    Bonkers theorising? Apparently Clara is a Master and also the Doctor. I rue the day the chameleon arch was invented -though this would have meant missing out on Derek Jacobi’s amazing transformation and Tennant snogging a nurse.

     

    #44277
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @purofilion it could just be that they both, coincidentally, have spikey faces.

    #44282
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @papermoon

    it could just be that they both, coincidentally, have spikey faces.

    Coincidence?¬† I think not.¬†¬† That mural wasn’t just for decoration¬† ūüėČ

    Though, as @purofilion pointed out, there are arguments against it being the spikey-faced monster in the suspension chamber/coffin.

    So, monster under the lake* = (or at least represented by) sea serpent ?¬† Very strange! ¬†On the other hand the mural might represent a dragon, since not all dragons in the early tradition had wings¬†or even¬†legs.¬† One of the old¬†English terms for a dragon was ‘worm’.

    * The monster has been named in advance publicity and the name has archetypal resonance, but since it isn’t mentioned in the trailer I am playing safe here.

    #44324
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    A theory on what might happen, based largely on the information revealed in the “next week” clip and the trailer for next week.

    The Doctor is going back in time to the village before the flood. Whatever he finds there he tells Clara by timey-wimey phone call that he cannot change, because “there are rules”.

    What does he discover there? The spaceship. A military installation from the 1980s mocked up to look like a Soviet town. And a monster. We see it briefly walking down a corridor in one of the buildings the Doctor is hiding in. It has emerged from the porcelain coffin. It is probably in possession of the missing power pack. there is a brief shot of the old ghost (looking somewhat like a man of the cloth, or at least man of distinction in a nineteenth century kind of way) holding a book saying “Celestial Map” (I think).

    So, theory: alien from Orion system has been stuck on earth since nineteenth century and can animate the dead to appear like ghosts in his quest for escape. Once the town (and his ship) was flooded he uses the powerpack to stay in suspended animation until the ship is retrieved from the lake, at which point he begins his campaign to take over the crew in order to achieve his desire–escape. The Doctor realises he has to “die”, or at least present a simulacrum of death in order to become one of the re-animated “ghosts” in order to foil the alien’s plan.

    Thematically, the alien has assumed the status of the Vodyanoi (hi @purofilion) and the references to the soviet setting in Scotland, the spaceship and that base under attack is all part of a homage by Toby Whitehouse to Robert Holmes, Douglas Camfield and “The Nightmare Man”.

    My theory. A theory that is thin at one end, thick in the middle and thin at the other end.

    #44326
    lisa @lisa

    @blenkinsopthebrave Yes I saw that too while I was watching it. I also think there
    is a bunch of details that are the same as in the episode ’42’. The alien in the sun
    that gets into you thru the eyes, the strange writing, the port hole scene, a military
    crew being trapped, and there is a chamber too. Maybe Mr. Whitehouse also liked that
    1? I like it a lot when the writer pulls together amazing ‘coincidences’ from other stories!

    #44330
    PaperMoon @papermoon

    @mudlark I didn’t think it was a coincidence either, which is why I brought it up in the first place. But …

    Yes, I know worm/wyrm is an alternate term for dragon. But, it would be interesting to hear what you have to say on the matter as I’m¬†pretty sure that I’m right in saying that you know far more about it than I do.

     

    #44331
    blenkinsopthebrave @blenkinsopthebrave

    Just re-watching the episode, and I need to adjust my theory (thin, thick in the middle, thin) a bit. The alien hasn’t been here since the 19th century but only since the 1980s when the dam burst. The elderly ghost isn’t from the 19th century but is, of course, a cowardly alien from the plant…Tivoli? (surely not).

    Anyway, just needed to make that slight adjustment to my thin, thick, thin theory. After all, if you are going to have a theory that proves to be wrong in every detail, then it has to be based on the correct information…

    #44333
    Anonymous @

    @blenkinsopthebrave

    I think it’s so good¬† -let’s move onto the week after that…

    Well, we don’t have a Tardis…but there are theories about…Clara and…well, mainly Clara….still. I liked it Mr Blenkinsop. I think it’s not thin¬† -it’s pretty, ah, thick…?

    The English Language

    #44363
    Anonymous @

    @mudlark

    @papermoon

    No, I understood what you meant papermoon -definitely the face of the creature in the mural looks extremely similar to the spikey half dragon/half¬†monster or sea devils suggested by @jphamlore. And therefore not coincidental as you say. Interesting that this mural was painted deliberately for the episode and features not only this serpent and dragon, and associated imagery and legend but also the characters dressed suspiciously like Star Trek heroes: a show I enjoyed immensely though I didn’t attack it with the same religious fervour as others at university did¬†-or even those in their pre-teen stage.

    The monster under the lake idea could be metaphorical as well: the idea of a greedy corporate organisation prepared to do anything to¬†mine the lake bed could well antagonise whatever has been previously peaceful. I can see as @lisa mentioned, that there’s a real connection with ’42’ and also, in my mind,¬†The God Complex -there the monster’s living off the faith of others.

    As he approaches his victim, the period of time between “the praise” is shorter. In Under the Lake, by repeating a set of code words, one is almost in a meditative state, perhaps a purgatory ¬†-not alive (we think) and not exactly moving on. In the God Complex, once you saw your ‘room,’ there was little you could do to halt the manifestation. Here, in Under the Lake, we have those witnessing the code or ‘secret’ also simply marking time: “he’s seen me” And yet there are innocents: Lunn, and in The God Complex there’s Rory – coincidentally because his faith was not obvious (I wouldn’t say he lacked faith: his faith lay with Amy). He cannot help the monster as he doesn’t fit the¬†victim profile. Neither does Lunn as he¬†hasn’t seen the writing and cannot project it in the form of a ‘song’ or code and therefore is useless to the ghosts.¬†For the time being.

    There are distinct similarities and interesting metaphorical parallels, in my opinion.

    #44373
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @purofilion

    I wouldn’t say he lacked faith: his faith lay with Amy

    No, his faith in Amy had been destroyed in The Curse of The Black Spot. He trusted Amy to give him artificial respiration. She did – but she gave up. Just before he starts coughing up the water.

    ‘Destroyed’ is probably too strong a word, but much as Rory loves Amy, one of the underlying themes in their relationship is that he never has faith in her love for him; he always doubts it. And in fact, Amy lets him down quite a lot, despite Rory being the person she loves most in all the universe.

    It’s worth noting that Black Spot was originally supposed to be Episode 9 – which means that we’d have had a demonstration of why Rory doesn’t have complete faith in Amy in Ep. 9 and why he doesn’t have faith in the Doctor in Ep. 10.

    #44397
    ichabod @ichabod

    @blenkinsopthebrave  Anyway, just needed to make that slight adjustment to my thin, thick, thin theory. After all, if you are going to have a theory that proves to be wrong in every detail, then it has to be based on the correct information…

    It should have a nice symmetry, too.

    #44405
    Anonymous @

    @bluesqueakpip

    Ah drat! Well, that explains why I don’t know this ‘fact’. I barely watched Curse of the Black Spot ūüôā

    Not a favourite at all.

    I thought, that despite his love for her and his knowledge that Amy perhaps loves him differently (read: ‘less’), that he still had faith in her. A grain, a little germination awaiting the watering ūüôā

    Maybe not, as you say.

    #44406
    Anonymous @

    yes, but on re-reading I said “I wouldn’t say he lacked faith -his faith lay with Amy”

    I guess I meant (but communicated it less well -and there’s reasons for that and then one gets….) that he didn’t possess much traditional faith at all, did he?

    Was his faith with Amy? Does it really lay with Amy or is it virtually non-existent? Is he more true? To himself?

    Maybe so.

    #44441
    Craig @craig
    Emperor

    The “Next Time” trailer and TV trailer for next week’s episode, “The Girl Who Died”, starring “Mercy” Williams.

    #44473
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    This season seems weirder and weirder to me because the episodes seem to be going out of their way to NOT have a female candidate to one day replace Clara as the Doctor’s companion, whenever that might be. The first two two episode arcs have no candidates, especially considering the females in Under the Lake were military and therefore blacklisted by the Doctor forever from even being considered as companions. And the next guest-starring actress has another gig.

    Kate Stewart I believe is prominently not military in contrast to her father. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her in at least some sort of transition arc as a temporary companion.

    #44478
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @jphamlore

    OR, they’re not replacing Clara. Just the actress who plays her. ūüėČ

    More seriously, I’m wondering if young Joivan Wade is being considered as a possible new companion, and then they’re going to cast a new female companion after they’ve finished filming the Christmas Special.

    #44492
    Kharis @kharis

    @bluesqueakpip Avalon’s symbol is the apple. ¬†Could mean Eve, or more likely, Morgan Le Fay.

    #44579
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @craig was that yet another snake I saw in the trailer? Certainly seem to be racking them up, what with Colony Sarff and the Dawn Treader painting, might have to look to see if there are any serpents in Arthurian legend and the symbolistic meaning of one

    #44582
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    Scrap that, it could be another pointer to the Tarot theory. I found nothing in a quick search on any correlation between Snakes and Arthur and so looked up what it means in Tarot. It made for some interesting reading:

    Snake symbol meanings deal with renewal, rebirth and development primarily because they shed their skin during each cycle in growth. Snakes are also cold-blooded which means they depend on their environment for their body temperature. This is a symbolic message that we must be adaptive, flexible and adjust as best we can to our circumstances. When the snake slithers across the cards into our consciousness way may need to ask ourselves if we need to shed a part of ourselves to allow further growth, or perhaps we need to be a little more flexible in situations at work or home.

     

    Rebirth? Shedding skin? That points to one thing and one thing only in the Whoniverse and that is Timelords. With Timelords you get Gallifrey, Missy is off making a plan for something, and the seed of how Gallifrey is back has already been left in “Death In Heaven” and “The Magician’s Apprentice”, you just need to read between the lines. Gallifrey is back and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

    #44586
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip  More seriously, I’m wondering if young Joivan Wade is being considered as a possible new companion, and then they’re going to cast a new female companion after they’ve finished filming the Christmas Special.

    I think so too. ¬†Rigsy’s reappearance seems timed right for him to step in, at least temporarily. ¬†But if so, I’ll bet they’re already considering candidates for the next full-season companion, actors’ schedules being the way they are. ¬†Only they’re not going to say so now and distract from all the goodies laid out on the groaning board from here til Xmas!

    @bendubz11 ¬†Re all these snakes and serpents: ¬†Rebirth? Shedding skin? That points to one thing and one thing only in the Whoniverse and that is Timelords. With Timelords you get Gallifrey, Missy is off making a plan for something, and the seed of how Gallifrey is back has already been left in ‚ÄúDeath In Heaven‚ÄĚ and ‚ÄúThe Magician‚Äôs Apprentice‚ÄĚ, you just need to read between the lines. Gallifrey is back and there is nothing anybody can do about it.

    Or — The Doctor needs to shed Clara (and/or v.v.) so that he (and/or she) can embark on further growth; and one or both will need unusual flexibility to cope with whatever comes next — or with waiting for whatever comes next to arrive. ¬†Thanks for checking out the symbolism — very interesting! ¬†With the Tarot, I’ve never gone beyond the in-your-face symbolism of the suits and the Major Arcana, myself. ¬†Are there traditionally snakes in the classic decks? ¬†I use the (first) Aquarian deck, myself; the boldness and simplicity of the art work appeals to me.

    #44589
    bendubz11 @bendubz11

    @ichabod normally I don’t really do tarot, but it seems like it fits so well into the storyline from other stuff that’s come up that I remembered it as a possibility. @kharis can probably answer your question though, she’s the expert

    #44590
    Mudlark @mudlark

    @bendubz11

    was that yet another snake I saw in the trailer?

    It isn’t entirely clear in this particular¬†trailer, but in one shown before the beginning of the season the monster in question is shown from a slightly different angle, and despite the long sinuous neck it looks much more like a¬†dragon than a snake,¬†with a mouthful of needle-like teeth (think T. Rex)¬†and some kind of crest behind the head.¬† Since it appears in a story featuring Vikings and a one-eyed individual wearing a winged helmet (characteristics of Odin), a dragon would be perfectly in keeping.¬† Dragons certainly have some snaky qualities, but I don’t think shedding their skin is one of them.¬† They often guard treasure and are long lived and difficult to kill.¬† Often they are represented as intelligent, cunning and¬†devious and, in some tales at least, have the power of speech which they may use to beguile and deceive the unwary. Some, but not all of them, can breathe fire.

    On the question of the Tarot, I am like @ichabod in that my knowledge is very limited.  I once possessed a pack Рin fact it may still be lying around somewhere at the back of a drawer Рand I did at one time read up a bit about the symbolism.  My feeling ( I may be repeating  the obvious here, and if not I am open to correction) is that the attributes of the four suits and the major arcana are such that they have universal applicability, however they are used.  The work of any writer, and in particular one who draws extensively upon archetypes and myths may therefore be read and interpreted in that light, whether or not that writer had the Tarot consciously in mind.

    On a more general note, I am delighted to see that at least some of the Vikings are wearing authentic looking helmets (i.e. pretty much like Norman helmets, without horns).¬† Most the women’s costumes look more generic early medieval than specifically Viking era Scandinavian, but these appear to be villagers, not high status people, so I suppose anything goes as long as it looks approximately right, and¬† I won’t quibble¬† ūüôā

     

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