Before The Flood

Home Forums Episodes The Twelfth Doctor Before The Flood

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  • #44887
    Anonymous @

    @lisa you are referring to the ‘closed loop’s that Moffat likes so much?

    The idea that young ‘Clara Prime’ and the claricles are in fact, the same person. There is no differentiation, as it were.

    #44892
    Serahni @serahni

    @ichabod  Oh, I certainly wasn’t asking if I was on the right track with what’s actually going on, just whether or not I’d translated what people’s theories about it were. lol.  I think it’s safe to say, by now, that predicting Moffat’s massive arcs accurately is troublesome at the very least.

    @lisa @purofilion  I am pretty reasonably sure most of what I say is mad, but I’m usually in good company. 😉  It does seem kind of likely to me that there is a Clara/Doctor/River thing that harks back to that pivotal point.  What it turns out to be remains to be seen!

    #44893
    lisa @lisa

    @serahni I think we will getting some details in the later episodes of this series. Very exiting!

    @Purofilion I think of the Claricles simply as parallels of Clara. Basically the same person.

    #44895

    @purofilion @serahni @lisa

    I am reminded of a comment by Spock towards the end of the Wrath of Kahn (not verbatim, but close enough): “Khan is very intelligent. But inexperienced: his tactics indicate two dimensional thinking.” Just about the only time Trek explicitly acknowledged that space is a very different battlefield to a …well, field.

    You do not need a closed loop to consider that there is no meaningful separation between Clara and the Claras (not claricles). She could be a single entity living in four dimensional space, but human reasoning skills are not really designed to see the universe that way. If she was there in Victoria England AND in 21st century England, there must be two of her.

    Not necessarily. She doesn’t travel through time – she is temporal (back to the tesseract idea)

    It has been suggested many times, however, that this is exactly how TLs see the universe

    #44897
    lisa @lisa

    @Purfilion Don’t forget that in the “End of Time” It was admitted by Rasillon
    that he implanted the sound of the drums into the Master and I think it was implied that
    it happened when the Master looked into the “bleble”. So I’m not entirely sure that all
    of the potential TL kids would go mad looking into said bleble. Might ask Pip or Lark
    or someone else to confirm that though.

    #44898
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    I like that. I can being to understand how I (having issues with timey-whimey stuff) need to consider it’s not a ‘one or other’ possibility, either. The 4D space makes more sense to me now.

    Then I became confused again: “back to the tesseract idea”
    By this are you saying: “she’s a ‘thing’ inside a thing”??  (the hybrid comment of Missy adding more depth to this)

    (Stillvaguely)perplexed -butlovingit -Puro.

     

    #44899
    lisa @lisa

    @pedant Yes – She is of this world the same Clara but recurring thru time. You said it better!

    #44900
    Anonymous @

    @lisa of course you’re right! I forgot about that. The sound of drums certainly drove him mad.

    I also think, though, that the seeds of madness were laid before that particular incident -insofar that looking into the bleble may have ‘injured’ the Master but adding the ‘time’ crystal which Timothy Dalton did (& eloquently: I do so love his voice) then caused the madness to be irredeemable. I mean if the Doctor and the Master were firm friends running all over the latter’s estates, would there not have been some ‘hair raised at the back of his neck’ incident -experienced by the Doctor – if the Master’s madness would be seen (hinted at) as fast approaching?

    Drat it: I have been ‘called’ to go food shopping as Boy Ilion claims “no food in d’house”

    Puro

    #44902
    ichabod @ichabod

    @pedant  [Clara] could be a single entity living in four dimensional space, but human reasoning skills are not really designed to see the universe that way . . . She doesn’t travel through time – she is temporal (back to the tesseract idea)  It has been suggested many times, however, that this is exactly how TLs see the universe.

    Which sounds to me like one more enormous difference between TL experience and human experience, necessarily dividing them from each other except for very limited and transitory connection points (adult alien + puppy, but now let’s have some play time — then puppy keels over in a needed nap, alien gets on with their multi-dimensional life that makes no sense to puppy even when awake).  Or: when a TL interacts with puppy in a time-linear fashion (that puppy can participate in), TL is choosing linear action/perception in order to be able to include puppy, for a bit anyway.  It would be like — willed blindness: I *see* that x and y happen like this, but I’ll pretend I don’t so that I can maintain the illusion of free agency that lets me have an adventure that I don’t already know the outcome of.

    The other aspect I see of TLs seeing the universe in multi-dimensions is that if they routinely perceive all of time and space as one multi-dimensional system, no wonder they’d have a hands off policy: what’s the point of acting at all, if everything is fully perceptible including the outcomes of all actions in the already and always extant chain of causality?  You end up with a version of fate or predestination: I can travel in time, but time itself goes in one direction and it leads to X by this route that mustn’t be messed with.  Probably the only action seen as necessary would be curatorial action — correcting variations to protect the main development = Time Lord policy?

    Is *that* what the Doctor is “rebelling” against — TL non-interference (except in defense of status quo) that makes sense from the TL point of view (and is boring, well, yes, if you’re full of energy and eager for action)?  So would the Doctor’s attraction to “lesser” species like us be that we anchor his own perceptions in the here and now (at least some of the time) where action and choice appear to be effective options *because* we humans can’t see all of time and space at once?  Our limited perceptual grid makes risk and adventure possible, even for a TL who can (including seeing Clara in different dimensions at once) — if he shuts out his greater knowledge and immerses himself in our linear view of time and limited spatial dimensions, where changing events appears possible . . . ?

    I feel that I’ve painted myself into something, but can’t see enough dimensions to know whether it’s a corner or not.

     

    #44904
    lisa @lisa

    @ichabod Great deduction! But the Doctor always suspends TL rules.
    I think that might be because he thinks that the TL way of *seeing* has more dangerous
    consequences? Isn’t that why every episode is about some sort of intervention?
    Always saving people and other aliens?

    #44905
    jphamlore @jphamlore

    Considering all of the foreground stories and portents before the full character of Clara even emerged in the show, that is why I have been asking who in recent episodes seems to be a candidate for the next female companion.  I wonder if there has been a decision to not go down the direction of an incredibly convoluted history or to not give what are in effect superpowers to the next companion.   What puzzles me is I’m not seeing any new candidates in recent episodes.

    I am also wondering if there could be a series of companions who last for only a serial or two, candidates with some kind of strength that make it plausible they won’t have to be rescued by the Doctor from the start.  That is why I have mentioned candidates such as Kate Stewart, a revived Osgood, River Song, or even Missy.

    #44906
    ichabod @ichabod

    @lisa   Well, he flouts TL rules, or bends them, or challenges them openly, like trying to use the Tardis to take him to the future he mustn’t return to yet in BtF, but he’s forced to find another way (presumably the “right” way) back.  And at other times, “I can’t do that.”  “I know when I can, I know when I can’t,” pretty much depending on the needs of the story.  In his efforts to keep Clara safe in BtF, he speakd rather wildly about to hell with the rules and the consequences of breaking those rules, but the Tardis keeps him in line.

    In this respect, and his quickness to intervene as you say, he remains in a constant state of rebellion — as he says himself (11 I think), “Don’t tell me the rules!”  So he is still a rogue TL, bashing his way over, under, around, and through those rules (sometimes); in fact the TLs have tacitly *agreed* that he can and should do this, by breaking their own rules at Clara’s request and giving this rebel who’s run out of his own lives a whole new set of incarnations in which to go on shoving their precious rules around.  So — the rules were never that important to them, which seems unlikely; or in their exile the TLs have learned to tolerate or even desire some small degree of (literal) unruliness via the Doctor; or Clara in her meta aspect (Impossible Girl) has special pull with them or actual command over them to get them to break their own rules this way.  Or?

    Have they gained a conscience, and willingness to have the Doctor continue to act as their get-out clause?  “Yeah, we don’t interfere (except for the odd mumble-crazy-universe-destroying-war-mumble), but we’ve got this free agent out there doing good and saving lives!”  Do they just need 11 to regenerate so that 12 can get them out of the pocket universe they’re stowed in *without* resuming a disastrous war?

    But I think the point of challenging the TL non-intervention rules was not that those rules had bad consequences, but that those rules too often prohibited even making an effort to bend consequences toward away from the bad and toward the good.  Which means that what he’s really rebelling against is the nature of the universe: the way its internal logic minus, apparently, any moral dimension but our tiny little fists of protest, leads to consequences that are so often cruel, unfair, and wildly destructive.  That’s what he intervenes to try to moderate, change, or avert.

    The Doctor is in rebellion against Entropy.  He really is a wonderful idiot.

    #44907
    ichabod @ichabod

    @jphamlore, re Clara +  I wonder if there has been a decision to not go down the direction of an incredibly convoluted history or to not give what are in effect superpowers to the next companion.

    I sure hope so.  Clara has just about exhausted that path for now, I think, as a kind of capstone to the super-companion build-up that I associate most with Rose.  That’s why I keep thinking, Rigsy, please — a kid with a “normal” human past (so far as we know) and a normal human life ahead of him, except for these speed-bumps coming of for a while with the Doctor.  That would be refreshing, and would allow the Doctor to be fully focus on his own problems — notably, I expect, the problems of Gallifrey and MixMaster.

    What puzzles me is I’m not seeing any new candidates in recent episodes.  

    Yeah, none left standing, anyway.  Maybe Kate?  I’d go for that in a hearbeat: mature, knowledgeable, capable, brave in a family tradition of courage and loyalty, the broader perspective of UNIT, and so on.  They changed a flirty young Doctor for an older one with a more somber tone to him, so why not change a mystical, fresh young companion with romance at least a bit on her mind for a mature, solidly centered woman dedicated to the protection of our world and species?  Worth a try, I agree.

     

    #44909
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Hi everyone.

    Apologies if this has been posted before (sorry, just on a flying visit), but it’s well worth a look, especially for those interested in the wall painting. It certainly suggests a massive amount of attention for a painting which was seen very briefly in the episode.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0341yn0/p0341wz0

    Link to the BBC site and the production artwork for these episodes, including a very detailed pic of the mural. I love the amount of detail and care that goes into designing the various artefacts for each world/episode.

    #44912
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb it’s wonderful  -love it, thank you and agree: there’s so much suggestion of the future inherent in it. Last year, I remember having this silly theory that half of their travel stories didn’t exist in ‘time’ -hence the Doctor’s hair changing lengths, the Orson Puzzle, meeting Robin Hood, seeing London becoming a Forest, the moon as an egg… as if they were all travelling on some giant star whale (here it’s a serpent which isn’t harmless) in their own closed spaces….but the Christmas story was that, in its own way…so no real success with that theory. I still think (when I get a little depressed about some eps in S8) that there’s a reason we had interesting little biopics into Sherwood Forest, the Moon (with its odd lego-like spiders) and bizarro London -it all meant something. Something huge. But possibly, it didn’t: “it is what it is.”

    And yet….Orson, the thing under the blanket, Clara in some loop…and trying to stop the cybermen in Dark Water/Death In Heaven when she said “ah hah! I’m not Clara Oswald, I am, in fact [deep breath]…the doctor!!!” [yeah, they’ll believe that; I’m all arched and stored in my sonic].

    No such luck.

    @jphamlore @ichabod @lisa

    on the companions, in the past, they did just appear. Why, jpham, would you be puzzled, necessarily, that you can’t figure out who would be one?  🙂 Amelia showed up in the same yr as a new showrunner and new Doctor, young Clara as Oswin appeared when we still had Rory and Amy in the show as dual companions, Donna did happen to be in a Christmas Special and then returned in Tennant’s last 13 episode series finishing off with the lovely Bernard Cribbins for a short stint.

    Martha showed up yacking on her phone on the way to rounds with Mr Annoying Clinician. But I agree: Kate would be great as would Missy even -although there’d be a competition of sorts and now, getting to what you’re saying ichi, Nine and Ten (and Eleven too) spoke about how they wanted to get the look of amazement on companion’s faces -the Doctor admitted it was often dangerous, these travels, that he wanted to be flattered, to “have a mate”  but it was showing someone new, something the Doctor had already seen before: but to see it thru fresh human eyes -all that wonder the Doctor had felt he could not capture for himself or by himself anymore. His memory excellent but his ‘appreciation register’ quite low unless shared with another intelligent and compassionate person who would appreciate this or that wonderful planet/scene/.

    I think a lot is being made of the ‘puppy’ phrase: for me, too much.

    OK, TLs see time in 4 or 16 dimensions. Are they more interesting for it? I don’t think so. They’re still susceptible to loneliness, self-loathing, arrogance, tedium and sometimes are bloomin’ stupid. Think of all the times Ten and Eleven would hit themselves and say “oh, oh, I am SO stupid. How could I have forgotten that?”

    I think they mean to say those things about themselves; that they have forgotten something -something on a linear platform which a very smart human could well understand or remember.

    Just a thought. It was Missy with her nastiness and jealousy which made this ‘puppy’ phrase part of the human label. I would prefer to just see it just as her typical gushing carry- on, saying things like, “my boyfriend, the Doctor.” She’s a psychopathic nutcase and so, much of her labelling is self -serving nonsense.

    Hurrump. 🙂

    #44920

    @purofilion

    ‘thing’ inside a thing”??

    Tesseract, not teselector! (A a cube in 4D – see Interstallar for a fund realisation of one)

    #44923
    Anonymous @

    @pedant oh Gawd: tesseract. Right. Got it.

    I’m watching I’stellar now: well, the rest tomorrow.

    Enjoying it -quite surprising despite M. O’C’s annoying voice 🙂

    #44931
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    @jphamlore

    I’m more trying to understand the stories of the Fourth Doctor and how time works. Back then both the Doctor and the Time Lords in Genesis of the Daleks seemed to think he could change the Daleks past, perhaps even wipe them out, and the Doctor and the Jagaroth in City of Death seemed to think it was possible the Jagaroth could save his ship to prevent the creation of complex life on Earth.

    I don’t know if this is of any interest, but I attempted to cover this question of whether the Doctor changes time or not in a site blog. I’ve always believed the weight of evidence suggests he does, and it goes back even further than the stories you mention. Back to Hartnell and The Space Museum

    #44933
    Timeloop @timeloop

    One quick prediction: Masie is River

    #44936
    ichabod @ichabod

    @purofilion  I still think (when I get a little depressed about some eps in S8) that there’s a reason we had interesting little biopics into Sherwood Forest, the Moon (with its odd lego-like spiders) and bizarro London -it all meant something. Something huge. But possibly, it didn’t: “it is what it is.”  And yet….Orson, the thing under the blanket, Clara in some loop

    Those tasty hints and oddities — they’re like Schroedinger’s Cat, in a way: they *might* mean something meta, singly or strung (partly or wholly) together, or not; but we don’t know for sure until Steven Moffat (or some later show runner) suddenly reaches back and makes them signify in some larger way.  Or, conversely, that never  happens, and when DW flies off forever in, say, 5050 or so, those oddities are still undisturbed in the past of the show, never made more of, never developed.  And how can we tell which bits were deliberately placed for later use and which get picked up (or continued) because they became cool/useful/potentially awesome in hindsight?   I’ve read that the sunglasses were a serendipitous addition, to start with; and Moffat said the “I don’t think I’m a hugging person now” line in Deep Breath was a sort of throw-away, but Capaldi seized on it and made it “a thing” that the writers grabbed and used on into the start of S9 as a base note of his Doctor’s character.

     

    #44938
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @ichabod

    when DW flies off forever in, say, 5050 or so,

    And then gets revived in 5063…
    😈

    #44939
    221BadWolf @221badwolf

    @everyone

    Hi! Whelp, just spent over an hour reading the whole thread to catch up 😛 Really, you guys have covered it all, and the only thing I want to ask is- a few pages back when everyone was talking about Clara theories and there were quite a few Nethersphere ones floating around, and I got reminded of when the boy came back to life at the expense of PE. I was wondering about that- Wasn’t the Nethersphere a virtual reality sort of thing? The people there didn’t have their physical bodies, in a sense, it was just their consciousness, not actually a tangible being of matter. So how did the boy manage to walk through the portal and go from being a consciousness  to having a physical body?

    #44949
    ichabod @ichabod

    @bluesqueakpip   But in the 5063 revival, they’ll have a *real* alien playing the Doctor.

    #45052
    RorySmith @rorysmith

    After some thought, I rewatched the Children in Need special Time Crash minisode. That was a nice example of the Bootstrap Paradox.

    He knew to fix the Tardis by remembering he watched himself fix it. TimeyWimey

    #50960
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    Here you go. Taken from Google.
    Read and wonder.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    During the explanation, the Doctor puts on his guitar and plays the famous ‘fate knocking at the door’ theme from Beethoven’s Fifth, as Gold’s new, rock-inspired arrangement of the opening credits kick in.

    Capaldi himself is widely-rumoured to have provided the electric guitar over the top of the credits, and fans have already taken to Twitter to mark this version of the theme tune as their favourite so far:

    #50964
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    yeah, missy you said the “doctor who theme” in your other post?

    So, I thought you meant the Doctor Who theme? 🙂

    Not the “da da da daa” which is pretty clearly PeterC.

    But as has been said by many, I wouldn’t necessarily know!

    Nice article.

    PuroSolo

    #50965
    Anonymous @

    I don’t think PC played the rest of the actual Grainer/Derbyshire theme -inspired or not by rockin’ it ‘Murray’ -love it when they say ‘rock inspired’ -usually clueless betties.  🙂

    But Betty is my middle name.

    I have to add that whilst not really liking The 3 Musketeers with PC I did like Gold’s theme for that programme. It worked: he’s certainly a very good composer.

    #50970
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    It really sounds ike PC doesn’t it, but unless he confesses – one way or t’other – we may never know for sure.

    We found the Musketeers rather tedious, the only shining light was PC as the Cardinal. but the music was, I agree,

    good.

    One wonders how long MG will continue to compose for DW.

    At the moment, I’m re-watching Merlin, it keeps me away from DW and is no hardship.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #50974
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    yep, well I hope Murray Gold does continue to do the work -it’s a mini movie every week. The man’s a genius. He has a tonne of helpers and a lot is computerised but it’s refined and isn’t just a keyboard and a few other percussion instruments banging together. The themes for each character have been consistently beautiful, haven’t they? When I hear the Confidential Cut Downs from the Ninth Doctor’s era, the themes were every bit as delicate and generous in thought as they are now. And back then I don’t think RTD or MG would have known how far this series would be taken and to what (great) lengths.

    <oops: off topic, should head to the Pub>

    PuroSolo

    #50994
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    We’ve got, the three DW at the Proms – two DT’s and one MS and the music is superb. Now I’m waiting for another DW at the Proms, with PC’s music.

    Cheers

    Missy

    #50996
    Anonymous @

    two DT’s and one MS

    @missy

    sorry about that! Not sure what “two DT’s” etc mean

    kindest

    Puro

    #51001
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    Tut, tut! David Tennant and Matt Smith!
    They held the first spectacular in Cardiff and the second in the Royal Albert Hall, both with David Tennant.
    The third was also in the RAH, with Matt Smith. Now I await the fourth with PC.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51002
    Kharis @kharis

    @missy @puroandson The very thought of him leaving made me panic, I almost feel we shouldn’t even discuss such a horrid thought for fear that putting it in the universe could make it real.  Murray Gold’s music is the constant companion and elevates every episode.  It would be more heartbreaking to hear Murray Gold was leaving than any actor or writer.  That would be the final blow of bad Doctor Who news 2016 that would just sink me.

    #51022
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    I just watched the second part.
    They reintroduced the double episodes format like in the first years, i think is a nice moves.
    The first part “Under The Lake” it was an ok episode, but this second part…wow, truly amazing and adrenalinic like the wonderful double premiere.
    Smart and clever lesson from the writer Whithouse about the logic and the conseguences of time travel and paradox! The final spech of the doctor in the Tardis shows what Bob Gale had to do in “Back To The Future Part 3”.

    Only two thing i wonder
    1) In the opening scene the Doctor is talking to Clara after the confusion of Davros plot? Or with himself?
    2)The guest star of the episode O’donnell remembers the old companion of the Doctor(Rose, Martha, Amy) but this woman lives in the year 2118! I think is too convenient that not quote at least one or two of the 20 future companion.

    #51024
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @kbranagh

    I think is too convenient that not quote at least one or two of the 20 future companion.

    Not at all. If, for example, I should suddenly and mysteriously meet the Third Doctor travelling with Jo Grant, I’d know perfectly well not to mention Sarah-Jane, Tegan or Rory. I might ask after Liz Shaw, or Polly.

    O’Donnell’s a fangirl. Fangirls generally can list the Doctors, with companions, in order. O’Donnell could probably have run through the entire set of Companions up to Capaldi-Doctor-and-Clara if she’d had the time – I bet Osgood can. 🙂

    #51027
    Anonymous @

    @kharis

    I agree: Gold’s music is wonderful but don’t fear, there are wonderful composers out there needing a ‘big break’ to be noticed. Certainly Ben Foster’s career has been very successful.

    PuroSolo

    #51059
    Missy @missy

    @bluesqueakpip

    O’Donnell’s a fangirl. Fangirls generally can list the Doctors, with companions, in order. O’Donnell could probably have run through the entire set of Companions up to Capaldi-Doctor-and-Clara if she’d had the time – I bet Osgood can. 🙂

    I’d be willing to bet on it! Love that woman.
    Cheers

    Missy

    #51060
    Missy @missy

    @puroandson

    But would they be as good as Murray gold? He seems to be completely tuned into Doctor Who – quite an astonishing man.

    Cheers,

    Missy

    #51064
    Anonymous @

    @missy

    oh yes they’ll be great. Composers know their thing -mainly 🙂

    #51066
    KBranagh @kbranagh

    @bluesqueakpip
    Yes, i think it’s possible..maybe o’donnel knows all the doctor-companion history and order.

    #51405

    Bizarre random thought that popped up unbidded of the “Er, isn’t that a wee bit of a plot hole” variety,

    A dam is used to create a lake. When the dam gets all blowed up and the water flows out a a huge gushing torrent, it will eventually subside and leave…. a river (like was there before the dam was built).

    So why is there a future oil base thingy under a lake?

    #51406
    Anonymous @

    @pedant

    I know – I remembered that too. Another member (or two) pointed it out initially and then it was ‘opined’ that there being sufficient mountains or the dam in a ‘valley’ that the water would in fact stay. I thought the base was built under the lake as a futury way of mining for oil under z’water?

    Yes?

    I dunno. I have to repeat watch it. That one I only watched the once 🙁

    #51408
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @pedant and @puroandson

    Yeah, I remember it being mentioned before.

    It depends on what the dam was for – I vaguely remembered Dinorwig having a lake below. Looking it up in Wiki, it has a two lake and a reservoir system, with the water for the hydroelectric power system being stored in Marchlyn Mawr, an artificial reservoir – then it gets sent to Llyn Peris, and any overflow is supposed to go into Llyn Padarn.

    Whoever wrote the Wiki entry dryly notes that the water level in Llyn Peris ‘varies considerably’. So if the dam is for electricity rather than a drinking water reservoir, they could have dried up an old lake that was situated below the dam. Remember that the ‘village’ turns out to be a military base, built after the dam was built.

    #51411

    @bluesqueakpip

    Doesn’t really work – Dinorwic is a pumped-storage facility for managing peak loads. If needed it can be brought from standstill to full production in a few seconds – and then the water is pumped back once the peak has passed (went there not long after it opened on a A Level geography field trip – it is VERY cool!).

    Either way, the release wouldn’t inundate anything that isn’t already inundated.

    #51520
    dailyboother @dailyboother

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    #51528
    dailyboother @dailyboother

    Please go to dailyboother.com and like the Dr. Who video posts I posted. I have some haters that are trying to dislike and I need you fellow fans to support. Thanks for your help…!

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