On The Sofa (10)

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    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone, quick question – what is an ep of New Who (2005-2020) that either scared you or freaked you out soo much for whatever reason that you would try to avoid watching it again even if you are going through an entire series?

    I would pick Journey to the Center of the Tardis due to the look and mysterious nature of the Zombie like creatures, the fact they were Clara all along sort of creating a time loop or paradox not sure which one cause as its clear I havent watched the ep since, the cramped space, orange and red colors of the walls ect along with the solution as to how to solve the problem being crazy and even the Doctor isnt sure if it would work all make this ep for me very chilling and scary and how would your break a time loop with our current understanding of time and space which I believe would be terrifying and isolating for anyone.

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi Declan

    There isn’t an episode that scared me so much I’d skip it. There are a few that were poor enough (in my opinion) that I’d skip them on re-watch unless I was faithfully doing the complete series.

    However – scariest episodes or moments. The blanket monster in Listen. The Silents in the asylum, sorry orphanage, in Day of the Moon.   The knocking creature in Midnight. All of which fulfil the criteria that the scariest things (in fiction) are the ones you can’t see.
    And in terms of ones you can see, the Weeping Angels in Blink.

    All of those, of course, are far too good to ever skip. However, I might postpone those eps if I was watching late at night, alone in the house.   🙂

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey Dentarthurdent I totally understand what you mean and everyone is scared of different things even if we all have various common fears.

    I think there is a difference between watching something you know that scares you or will probably scare you (if you havent seen it before) but you watch it anyway for the thrill and overcoming the scare whereas some things are more physiological like the monster in Listen had me thinking about the concept which scared me more than the moment in the orphanage and often we dont want to face physiological scares which I think is why things we cant see or the dark is scarier most of the time than things we can see.

    For my I think that the hidden danger in the Journey to the Center of the Tardis (the time loop) and how that can affect us physiologically as we think about (in other sci fi things) what happens if you go back in time and do you create a new time line, do you have the choice of what your future or previous self will do in the time line ect really plans on my mind if I think about it as no one knows what they would do to beat the time loop situation and re playing that or knowing your gonna become the monster in the ep would be terrifying.

    I agree with a lot of the examples you listed though as they are very scary for example I watched Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead recently and the biggest fear for me still in that ep was seeing Miss Evangelista’s face soo much so that I was sweating from anticipation to getting to that scene but I carried on as you say we as Doctor Who fans (due to the nature and fun of the show) dont let the scares stop us from watching and we get through the scares more often than not.

    Thank you for your opinion and listed examples they are wonderful 🙂 I think this will be a very interesting topic to hear opinions of from everyone given the variety of what can scare us and what we do about it.

    Declan Sargent


    winston @winston

    @oochillyo   I agree that what scares somebody is also about who that person is and what they have experienced in their own lives. Some people love to be scared by movies like my 15 yr old granddaughter who tries to get me to watch them with her( I never do) . I am easily scared and I don’t like the feeling so I avoid it when I can. That said, Who has scared me a few times but Midnight is an episode I rarely re-watch because it makes me feel first scared than slightly sick at the behaviour of “scared” people. There is nothing more frightening  than a crowd of scared people with a scapegoat readily available. Well that got me thinking, thanks for that.

    Stay safe.

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @winston mayby its more obvious from what you have said but I think that often younger people are more willing to watch something scary mayby as we are used to more violent games and films than many older people however this is not always the case and what someone has gone through or their belief in certain things can contribute to what scares them or doesn’t scare them.

    I am very happy your enjoying this discussion too, its great to hear you enjoyed thinking about the topic and its wonderful you happily shared both your views on it and your Granddaughter’s views on the topic overall from your account as you know her well obviously and I found it heartwarming that she try’s to tag you along when watching something scary (even though its not your cup of tea) as its clear she wants to spend time with you and loves you a lot 🙂

    Your welcome for the discussion idea feel free to discuss it with others 🙂

    Take care buddie 🙂 hugs

    Declan Sargent


    Patchlamb @patchlamb

    Couldn’t find any other good place to put this. Well, Doctor who is an old fandom and the below survey currently only has 4 responses from the 1943-1980 age range. If you are a fan from these birth years I ask you to take the survey! Everyone is welcome to take the survey of course. Thank you for your time, and I used to watch Doctor Who a lot in high school! :} Sorry I cannot figure out how to make the big text any smaller.

    <b><i>”The Fannish Drift Survey </i></b>seeks to gather data from fans of various age and time in fandom to help define fandom words. If the definition of certain words has changed over time, or is seen differently among different fans, then this survey will hopefully make that clear. There are two identical forms, each covering two generations.

    The information you provide will be compiled and later made public, so do not complete the form if that makes you uncomfortable. No personal identifying information will be collected, such as name or email. Please share the forms with your friends and make sure you take the one that relates to your age group!
    <h2><b>Birth Year <i>1981 – 2020
    -> https://forms.gle/ETXjbNaaTPWfV6ys5</i></b><b>
    </b><b>Birth Year <i>1943 – 1980
    -> https://forms.gle/yK6juPMkzNPGfinD6</i></b></h2>
    <i>For more information on “fannish drift,”
    you can check out the Fanlore article on it.”</i>

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @patchlamb that was an very interesting survey I am keen to understand some the terms that I was not sure of.

    Thank you for reaching out to all of us with this interesting forum , I hope others will complete it 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Umm, I tried it, but I don’t think I helped much since I didn’t know almost all of the terms.   Partly at least because I haven’t been

    ‘in’ a fandom for yonks.  I did know ‘flaming’ though, I recall in bulletin board days (that was about 30 years ago!) we used to have the most spectacular flame wars.   😎

    Oooh look, the website’s emoticon translator has given me the Sonic Shades   😎   😎   😎

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent those flame wars sound fun and I love your Sonic Shades statement that was very funny 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Thanks Declan

    Well those flame wars ranged anywhere from deadly serious (just as well the combatants were at the other end of a phone line – and 56k dialup took a little bit of the heat out) –  to kids just trying to outdo each other “I’ve got my big gun, ya pathetic wimp”  “I’ve got my anti-tank missile, dumbo!” “Well I’ve got my tactical nuclear weapon!”  sort of thing.   Occasionally a stranger would happen on such an exchange and be shocked and alarmed by the threatened violence, much to the amusement of the combatants.   I’m not sure it would even be possible these days, someone would take fright and call in the net nannies.

    I suppose it was the text equivalent to modern shoot-em-up online games.   Maybe not really.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Well, in my re-watch I’m up to Face the Raven.   I’ve been putting it off for a couple of days, not because I dislike it, in fact it’s a great ep, but because I know it’s the (almost) end of Clara, who I like muchly.   Just watched Sleep no More, which does nothing for me – and why is it that Sleep No More gets a commentary track while none of the much better surrounding eps (the Zygons, Raven, Heaven Sent/Hell bent) do?   That’s just cruelty!

    On the subject of companions, Osgood might have made a good one (and would have been a fan favourite) though she would have had to lose her fanworship of the Doctor.    But I think that became impossible when they ‘cloned’ her, since two Osgoods became necessary to keep the Osgood truce.   I guess one at a time could have taken time off for a trip with the Doctor but that could have been a very tricky dynamic for the writers to handle.   And two Osgoods would have been a nightmare for directors (like any double character) since every shot would have had to be repeated and the ‘blocking’ and cutting becomes so tricky.   Scifi loves to clone characters but the clones never last long for that reason.   Farscape cloned Crichton (and the end of that episode was a memorable vignette of the two Crichtons grimly playing Rock-Paper-Scissors and dead-heat-ing every time) but then they ended up on two different ships for the next half-dozen eps, at the end of which one died.   So it’s probably just as well for Osgoods’s health that they stayed on Earth out of the spotlight.

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone hope your all safe , happy and enjoying Doctor Who , sorry I havnt been online on this forum for a few weeks.

    I am very much looking forward to talking to you all about this wonderful show and all the wonderful ways you have been staying happy and busy during this awful time through Covid 19 , I hope to hear from you all when possible take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi Declan

    Well I left a respectful gap in my viewing after Hell Bent (which was a magnificent episode IMO), out of respect for the departed Clara.   We all have different favourite companions but Clara’s one of mine.   And I wanted to savour that ep before I went on.

    Currently just watched Oxygen – excellent episode, Jamie Mathieson’s one of the best writers (I loved Flatline).   I actually dared to read the comments ‘below the line’ in the Guardian review for the first time in a couple of seasons (it was the whining there that first sent me to this site), but this time the complaints were mostly absent, quite a few commenters were amused by the effect its treatment of toxic capitalism would have on Daily Mail readers.   (What, did nobody ever watch the Alien series?   Weyland-Yutani?)   On the other hand, it got in a pretty good swipe at overbearing ‘health & safety’ measures.   But anyway – gripping episode.   And it all hangs together pretty well, actually I understand it better on  the second viewing – e.g. the Doctor’s ‘suicide’ reprogramming of the computer made the suits’ control program redo its profit calculation.   I know the script said as much but the episode was so packed with developments, that didn’t really register on me first time.

    I loved the bickering between Nardole and the Doctor – (Bill:) What’s a fluid link?   Nardole:  No idea. But the Tardis can’t go anywhere without it.   Doctor: Who told you that?   Nardole: You did.  Doctor (fiendish grin): Exactly. (Slams ‘takeoff’ lever down).

    So when I’ve worked through Season 10, I’ll carry on to my (as yet unopened) Season 11 boxset.   I’m hoping it will be good, I have niggling doubts whether a new show runner can match the Moff but we’ll see.   Female Doctor, no problem, but it all depends on the actor and the writing.   We’ll see.   Tough luck on Bill, only one season.



    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent Oxygen was one of if not the most recent ep I watched a few weeks ago after diving into series 8 which I am finding really enjoyable so far , I remember liking a lot of oxygen as you say when The Doctor basically told Nardole he knows best and is in charge when he took off without the fluid link it was hilarious and I think the way to avoid the zombies was pretty interesting although I am not sure if the Doctor could have survived outside without Oxygen for soo long although it is the Doctor its possible though Bill being revived basically from what I remember was a bit pushing it I was sure she had died even though I watched series 10 with her and the Doctor so the explanation on how she survived made sense from what I remember but I still wasnt too convinced that she could survive like that , I really liked the they are more valuable alive solution and although it was better than I was expecting and a really great ep 🙂

    Hope you enjoy your journey through series 8 (if thats what your doing right now) and series 10.

    I look forward to discussing more eps of this wonderful show with you and anyone else on this forum take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Well, when it comes to surviving in space, the answers are not as obvious as one might think.

    I believe there is a limit of approximately 4 minutes that the brain can survive (at normal temperatures) without a blood supply, before damage starts to happen (much longer in cases of extreme hypothermia, but that wouldn’t apply). Holding breath would be a bad idea, breathing out just empties your lungs, I guess then the moisture in them would start to evaporate but with no airflow to accelerate the ‘drying’ process I imagine it wouldn’t be too quick. I don’t think you’d have any ‘suffocation’ feeling since that’s caused by CO2 build-up, not lack of oxygen. ‘Freezing’ or hypothermia would not be a worry in the short term; although space is extremely cold, vacuum has no ‘heat capacity’ and no conductivity, you’d only lose heat very slowly by radiation – quite unlike cold temperatures on Earth. I think, eventually, the lack of external pressure might cause bubbles to form in your bloodstream and that would be nasty. Short answer, as long as they got Bill back into a ‘normal’ environment within 4 minutes she should be fine.

    As for her subsequent electric-shock-induced ‘death’, it appears she was just rendered momentarily unconscious – entirely possible and has happened frequently, though I wouldn’t care to predict in advance whether a shock would kill someone or not, presumably the Doctor can. I assume cutting through the door was Bill’s suit in control, and the Doctor then ‘revived’ Bill.

    So, I have no problem accepting both incidents.

    Series 8 – are you up to ‘Listen’ yet? I love that episode, both for its unconventional approach (the Doctor sitting on the Tardis talking to camera), the interplay between the Doctor and Clara (which is brilliant as always), and by far the two scariest ‘monsters that might not exist’ ever – the thing under the blanket, and the noise in the empty future base. As always, what you can’t see is much more scary than what you can.

    I did Series 8 a month ago but it’s still fresh in my mind so happy to discuss episodes. I’m currently on S10, ‘Extremis’ is next, which I recall as an excellent ep from my previous watch-through.

    Nice to talk to you, kinda wondering if anyone else will join in?

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent mayby I should check Oxygen again and mayby do some research I just thought being in space without a suit was dangerous a lot quicker than 4 mins as your eyes swell I think cause of the pressure and I think your blood starts to boil inside you which builds pressure too which kills you pretty quickly either way I will check how long anyone can last in space without a suit and I dont want to discredit what you said without research 🙂

    I think your right about the shock making Bill unconscious though its still not clear how that can happen with an electric shock and then she can be fine after I mean if its a strong enough shock to make you unconscious then I would presume its gonna do a lot of damage to the individual.

    I think we both agree though that the ep was really great even if there is slight query’s and nick picks 🙂 hugs

    I have got to listen and have seen some other later eps of series 8 out of order but its still a really nice series so far better than I thought it would be.

    Listen was really interesting was there anything at the end or not who knows , I dont think it was the Doctor turning the door or anything and either future Pink has somehow tricked himself by accidentally seting up the door to open at that time each day or whatever or their is something , after watching the ep I was pretty freaked out just thinking about that possibility if something could hide perfectly and I was really annoyed that again Clara gets all the power like come on she made the Doctor scared of the dark urg its soo annoying.

    I have mentioned my thoughts on this ep above somewhere feel free to check it out 🙂 hugs

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan

    I’ll admit right off I’m no expert in physiology and I didn’t do any research on space. I based my answer mostly on physics. I’m starting to question my own assumptions.

    Um, there’s (as usual) a host of ‘answers’ on the Internet, some of which are obviously made up. But one I found (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/survival-in-space-unprotected-possible/ ) suggests up to three minutes. But anyway, we know that the Doctor gave Bill his own helmet at some point, at which point her suit (presumably) automatically repressurised. I guess this was before the critical time had elapsed.

    And on reflection the electric shock is a bit dodgy too. Enough current can cause permanent damage, on the other hand a small current (not enough to cause physical damage) can still stop someone’s heart. In which case the Doc would have had to give Bill a restart inside four minutes. Oh, but here we are: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronarcosis.      Though I doubt the ‘procedure’ would be accompanied by blue sparks everywhere.

    So I think it’s ‘near enough’. (The episode that really causes me problems is ‘Kill the Moon’, the mechanics is just impossible right from the landing of a Space Shuttle – a big *glider* – on an airless moon. Tardis – fine. A Space Shuttle with no help from alien tech – never. And it gets worse from there. I’m an engineer. The nearer something is to present reality, the harder I find it to ‘suspend disbelief’).

    Re ‘Listen’; it really didn’t worry me that Clara ‘gets all the power’, in fact I don’t think she does. She certainly isn’t exercising it consciously. Clara didn’t intend to make the Doctor afraid of the dark, it was just how fate played out. Same as I don’t hate Me for the death of Clara in Face the Raven, she hadn’t intended it. Again, Fate (which is just a fancy word for sh*t happens, IMO). I don’t think the Doctor has to be the hero of every episode, so long as it’s interesting (take ‘Blink’, for example, nobody seems to worry that it’s all about Sally Sparrow).

    Okay, that’s enough from me.

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I am shocked but grateful that you took the time to search up the science in soo much detail thank you 🙂

    I have heard soo many people complain about Kill the Moon and its physics ect , I havnt seen the ep yet but I agree some of what I have heard is kinda ridiculous not like people are over exaggerating I mean how they say its soo scientific in the ep and yet its not is astonishing especially for the 12 Doctor like I would have assumed they wouldn’t let something soo blaringly wrong be in one of his eps although I have seen Into The Forest and I guess it has elements of wow that’s stupid and not scientific but maybe its alright as they say its like alien plant pollen or something lol but in Kill the Moon whats the reasons.

    Furthermore Clara again makes the important choice I know the other women helped her and the girl funnily enough but why Clara had to be a part of it mmm I guess like sometimes with Rose its like ah its her planet she wants to help but Clara isnt really educated for that role and why would you let someone who has never trained for that help I get The Doctor can get away with that on most occasions cause he knows soo much , has authority and the physic paper if needed but Clara some normal human let her in charge of your space program from the future haha

    I used to like Clara a bit (the Victorian version is the best) , she is kinda alright sometimes with the 12 but not very often she has too much power , is always complaining , lying to Danny like I saw the Ring Of Akitan recently and she was soo much better there , kinder , willing to explore , try new things and not complain that much but she is really grinding my gears with how she changed and all the power she gets to the point the Doctor spends Billions of years in torturer over and over again to save her and she doesn’t appreciate any of that and flys of with Me who is also too powerful and un appreciative , this is all my opinion which (probs got a bit out of hand and away from the point) I dont wanna start a fight over,  just want to have a friendly discussion with you all 🙂 hugs

    Thank you again @dentarthurdent for sharing your views and highs and lows of some interesting Doctor Who eps as well as taking the time to research 🙂 , take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan

    In The Forest Of The Night doesn’t really bother me with its incredibly rapid tree growth. Maybe because I’m a tree-hugger so the idea of more trees is congenial to me. But I think, more, because it’s biology – something I’m less involved with and less finicky about than physics or mechanics (I’m an engineer). And it’s a bit more mystical, so I can give it a pass.

    Kill The Moon, on the other hand, emphasises physics and current Earth technology right from the start, so the problems are highlighted for me. The closer to current technology something is, the more any ‘impossibility’ drops me out of the story (unless it’s explained as alien tech). I get a bit uncomfortable at ‘HMS Valiant’ the flying aircraft carrier in David Tennant episodes, and very leery at the space-flying Spitfires in Victory of the Daleks. The nuclear sub gently planted in the desert in Pyramid at the End of the World, on the other hand, doesn’t worry me, in fact I love it, because ‘it’s the aliens that did it’.

    Clara ‘having power’ in Kill The Moon – well she didn’t want it (who would?). It wasn’t her choosing. That was kind of the point. The Doctor forced her into that position and she was furious about it (and I don’t blame her). (Making ‘the world’ vote by turning off their lights was another thing that jarred on me, how would anyone even organise that?   Without the usual perverse 10% who have to do the opposite just because they can?) The best thing about that ep was the subsequent verbal clash between Clara and the Doctor. While I like it when they get along, I also like the drama when they don’t.

    As for being ungrateful in Hell Bent – the Doctor was proposing to wipe her memory and put her ‘somewhere safe’ – how would that have worked? There was a lot of (fan) indignation when the Doctor did just that to Donna, and she had a comfortable niche to settle back into (and she never seemed to appreciate the adventures while she was having them, unlike Clara, who came to live for them, almost literally). Ashildr/Me didn’t have any power other than what she had learned to take for herself. Immortality could be a curse as much as a blessing. Clara and Me took what was the best option left for them. Who can blame them? (Well, I can’t).   And Clara did take care to rescue the Doctor’s Tardis for him, track him down and plant it where he would find it.

    But then, I like Clara and have done ever since Asylum of the Daleks, so I’m biassed.

    Are you watching the episodes in any sort of sequence?   I’m a little bit puzzled  as to where you’re up to.


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey Dentarthurdent you make some good points and mayby I need to re cap some eps and watch some I am missing off my list to get the best picture of Clara and what she does so I think we should move on from her for a bit as I dont wanna start a fight as I said and what I say you have far more knowledge about her to provide a different point with evidence and thats fine I just need to catch up as I said.

    I am not going too much in an order though I was going through series 8 in an order so far prior to watching all of series 11 and a few of the first eps of series 12 both with my Dad but sometimes as I wait to watch more of series 12 with him I jump back into older eps by myself (like from series 4 to bring me back to a feeling of comfort ect) and watch them and I feel going through series 8 mostly in order now as I began jumping around hence watching Flat Line again and In the Forest of the Night for the first time I am getting the ungrateful and most powerful version of Clara in my opinion so that why I am getting really sick of her again sorry and I guess I havent seen too much of series 9 or 10 though I was binge watching series 10 when it was new and I will be on ep 6 since I have just passed Oxygen , hope this helps explain where I am and where I am going with regards to Doctor Who eps 🙂 take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan

    Series 10 ep 6 – that’s where I am.   I just watched Extremis – Pyramid at the end of the world – The Lie of the Land trilogy straight through.   They’re all pretty good, I think, though I think they could have been condensed to a double episode.  As always, I love the flashes of humour with Nardole and Missy.

    I’ll try to avoid any too-detailed spoilers:    I was rather horrified that Bill actually caved in to the Monks to save the Doctor (I’d forgotten that development from the first time I watched).   Oddly, I thought I remembered that Erica (the lab worker) had sacrificed herself to save the Doctor, which didn’t happen – I must be misremembering some similar occurrence in another episode.   But then I was really impressed with how far Bill was prepared to go in her confrontation with the Doctor in The Lie of the Land (you’ll see what I mean when you get to it).   On my first viewing that sequence of scenes had me all over the map.

    Too bad about Bill’s love life, she just has no luck at all in that direction.

    Good to see Missy again, she is quite the most deliciously wicked mischievous villain ever.   She has style.

    Okay, that’s enough for tonight.

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I love your none spolierific review especially when I got to Bill’s love life hahaha , the character development for Bill seems strong with those 3 eps as in her determination and bravery to help the Doctor as she trys her best to save the Doctor which is interesting since how short of a time we have had her up to that point.

    I guess cause she as seen a lot and espically as the Doctor just recently saved her life in Oxygen she trusts him even more and has become stronger as a result as I remember in the wooden house one I think she was still a bit skeptical of him , it will be interesting to see that development in the 3 eps 🙂

    I think it will be strange for me going back to Missy from the new Master but thats what I get for jumping around haha

    Thinking back on it having Nardol with like Graham would have been hilarious actually 12th , Graham and Nardol would have been brilliant mayby include Ryan too ok while I am at it bring in Captain Jack and Mickey Mouse what a perfect team 🙂 hugs

    Declan Sargent

    winston @winston

    @oochillyo   Ah, the quest for the perfect companions for a Doctor of your choice. It is so fun and satisfying to pick your favourite Tardis crew and Nardole would be part of mine. I like Nardole, River Song and the 12th Doctor teasing and bickering across the universe.  I also like Donna, Rose, Jackie, Martha  and Sarah Jane  making the 10th Doctors life very interesting in the Tardis. These are just 2 of my perfect crews and I could come up with so many more but “that way lies madness” so I will stop there but I will muse over it for many happy hours. Thank you for that I needed something new.

    Stay safe.

    janetteB @janetteb

    @oochilyo and @dentarthurdent I am really enjoying your discussion. Sorry for not joining in but am busy with lots of stuff and usually read posts here when I am tired or just need a break.

    Declan, I will defend Clara too, but like Dentarthurdent I am biased because I like Clara, though many of my friends do not so I get that to some viewers she is annoying. She does treat Danny badly but she is aware of doing so. She does take responsibility for her “faults”. Clara to me is very real and very human. I really enjoy the report between her and “CapDoc”.

    Kill The Moon is one of the few recent episodes that I just can’t watch. Forest of the Night is also preposterous but it gets a pass from me because it is fun, has heart and though the science is silly there is a good message in it and I love the idea of a forest growing up overnight in London.

    We recently watched Extremis and the following two episodes. I understand Bill’s decision to ask for help from the monks. she was left with two bad choices because the planet was not likely to survive without the Doctor. In her position would I do as she did, possibly and it did buy time. She saved the Doctor and in doing so ensured the eventual saving of the planet.

    It is a pity Bill and Nardole did not get to do another series as  I really enjoyed them both as companions.



    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Well, I haven’t seen anything past Twice Upon a Time, so far.   (My favourite line, ever, goes something like: “Oh, it isn’t an evil plan.   I really don’t know what to do when it isn’t an *evil* plan.”)     I gather Graham is Bradley Walsh, who I only know from The Chase – from what I’ve seen there he could be good in the role  (you’ve got to be very good to read a complicated quiz question quickly and clearly so a contestant isn’t left wondering ‘what did he say?’)   Just imagining, yes having Bradley and Nardole verbally butting heads could be very good indeed, though I think ideally they’d need Moffatt’s writing to give them the best material to work with.

    My favourite Doctor-companion pairing?   I think the War Doctor and The Interface (Billie Piper), brief though that was.     After that, the 12th Doctor and Clara – Capaldi is such a strong sharp-edged character he needed someone assertive to challenge him.   Though Bill did shoot him, so there’s that…

    Other than that, Rose and Tennant, though slightly impaired by too much emotion at times – I think Moffatt writes emotional moments much better than RTD, this is a case where less is more, much better to hold back on the acting and let the viewers feel the emotion.

    To respond to Winston – I think that bunch of companions, all at once (if that’s what you meant), is just too much.    Two or three people (i.e. one or two companions) offers an interesting dynamic; adding more, even if they’re excellent characters, just dilutes it.   Less is more, again.

    That’s IMO, of course.   I’m visualising some awful scenes with ‘ensemble’ shows where it’s painfully obvious the characters have had the lines shared out equally among them, probably by contractual obligation.   On the other hand, if the characters are properly written as individuals, it can be made to work.   I’m thinking of Blakes 7 for example.   Though it rarely had all seven (or 5, or whatever) on screen at once, it broke it up into twos or threes which made it manageable.


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi @janetteb

    I see you posted while I was posting.   Nice to hear from you.   I really don’t have much to discuss about your post since I agree with all of it  🙂

    Nardole, I didn’t rate very highly in his first appearance – didn’t dislike him, just didn’t take to him much.   But he ‘grew’ on me, he’s well written and I have to admit Matt Lucas delivers his lines extremely well.   Yes I would have been happy to see Bill and Nardole go for another season.

    I was very surprised at the development in Pyramid where Bill asked the Monks for help; I had thought the Doctor would get out of his dilemma some other way.   I can’t really blame Bill for doing that.   I’m a bit surprised – since the Monks had just fried the three generals for their ‘strategic decision’ – that they accepted that Bill had the authority to do that.   How?   As representative of the Doctor who was currently president of Earth? – that was stretching it a bit, particularly since the President explicitly disapproved.    Obviously it suited the Monks to go along with it (but then why were they so persnickety about their little rule in the first place with the generals?)   In retrospect, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but – like the Monks – I’ll go along with it for the sake of the story   🙂

    I was also surprised (and quite impressed) when Bill – obviously suffering from buyer’s remorse – filled the Doctor full of lead, even if they turned out to be blanks (which also surprised me).   I didn’t know she had it in her.



    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey everyone its wonderful to hear from soo many of you it feels like were all a ‘fam’ as the Doctor would say haha 🙂

    @winston I am delighted you were having a wonderful time deciding your fav companions for each Doctor , its always hilarious thinking how they will all interact with each other espically with a Doctor like 12th 🙂

    @janetteb Hearing you are really enjoying this discussion of mine is wonderful , I am soo honored you are all enjoying these discussions and having soo much fun talking to each other about our wonderful show , take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    janetteB @janetteb

    @oochillyo We are the extended “fam”. I like that idea.

    @dentarthurdent I agree you on most points but not the Tennant/Rose pairing. Their’s is the Doctor/Companion relationship that I like least of AGWho. (After Gap  Who) Series 2 is my least favourite and I find Rose quite irritating in some episodes.

    Three seems to be the magic number for the Tardis crew it seems. (Doctor and two companions.) More than two companions can work but too often one is getting pushed to the background which I feel is a tendency in these last two series. Often I think there is too much of Graeme not enough time for Yaz and Ryan to develop and even the Doctor is sometimes taking second place.





    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Thinking it over, I’m inclined to waver a bit about the Rose-Tennant pairing.    Looking back at my self-compiled sequence-of-episodes list (which I created  so I could watch all the odd prequels and webisodes in the right order, but I also ‘shaded’ the episodes according to how good I thought they were), I agree Season 2 is fairly weak.   Note that Seasons 1 and 2 appeared much stronger *at the time* because we hadn’t seen subsequent seasons to compare with.

    My least favourite companion is Donna – you know what they say about first impressions.   Donna had probably the worst introduction – the Doctor was in shock and grief at losing Rose and all of a sudden there’s this shouty woman, destroying the mood.   Absolutely not the way to make friends and influence people.   Also, her introductory episode was – not the best.   If she’d been introduced more gently (like, say, Martha was) then maybe I might like her better.

    I haven’t seen any of Seasons 11-12 yet, though I’ve got Season 11 (still sealed) and I’ll pick up S12 at some point.   I’m steadily working right through New Who (went back to Rose, now I’m up to The Lie of the Land) so I’ll carry straight on to S11 when I get there.   I’m spacing out my binge-watching by indexing/editing old photos, thousands of them, I’m 3 years behind on that, but Covid restrictions are a good prompter to start catching up.   3 years ago I travelled on the Trans-Siberian from Vladivostok to Moscow and I took 6000 (!) photos in six days; that’s 1000 a day, one a minute or one per mile on average.   Sounds a lot but when you’re sitting in a very comfortable train with a camera and not much else to do but watch the scenery, and clicking (with digital) costs nothing except a lot of time editing later on, but I’ll likely never be there again – might as well take a lot.   Literally half the photos will be no good because of random poles etc in the way, maybe only 10% will be usable.    The other remarkable thing is, I can pinpoint many of them to the nearest yard (in the middle of Siberia!) with the aid of Google Maps Satellite View, I never expected that when I was taking them.   But it does make indexing them much slower which is why it’s taken me a month to (virtually) get to the outskirts of Moscow at last.    I’d rate Google Maps as the greatest thing on the Internet; or at least as beneficial as Youtube.    Just think how science-fiction-y it would have seemed when Doctor Who started (or maybe even when Rose first screened) that I can access, for free and within seconds, a close-up aerial view of almost anywhere on Earth.

    So that’s what I do on the sofa   🙂


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent it sounds very interesting and I often take too many photos as nobody can remember everything but with photos they can help safe memories , environments and our feelings when we took the photo 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Um.  Just watched Empress of Mars.   Well that was no Robot of Sherwood.   More like Love & Monsters or Fear Her.   It just seemed to me that the plot and much of the dialogue was entirely by-the-numbers Indiana Jones – not something I notice very often in recent series of Who.   Just one good moment – when the slimy lieutenant *actually got shot dead* by his ex-commanding officer.

    But I’ve just realised, I only watched the Monks trilogy (Extremis, Pyramid, Lie of the Land) through once, so tomorrow I’ll do a repeat of those (and doubtless some of the apparent plot points in Extremis will appear in slightly different light now I know the denouement – better or worse I’m not sure, it will be interesting to find out.    Many of Moffatt-era plots deserve watching through twice, first time to get the ‘feel’ of it, second time to understand it).    Then I’ll skip straight to Eaters of Light.

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I guess I will be dreading getting ever close to Empress of Mars as I didnt have much interest in the ep before but as we both enjoyed Robot of Sherwood I am more concerned now about Empress of Mars.

    It seems good to go over Moffatt stories again cause they can be confusing but sometimes you appreciate them more 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan
    Please don’t ‘dread’ Empress of Mars. Nothing horrible happens to Bill or the Doctor. I just think it’s a ho-hum episode that can safely be ignored.
    By the way, I was just plagiarising ‘Pookieuk’s inevitable contribution to the Guardian comments pages of every ep – first message, always, ‘Well, that was no Robot of Sherwood’. Actually I’ve just noticed both eps have the same author, well I found Robot to be not great, but more fun. To be fair, some reviewers disagree with me, but then they’re often all over the map, what one reviewer thinks is a strong point another one will hate.

    Bill is rapidly growing more competent, notably in the Monks trilogy. (This is probably why I had a vague memory impression of the next ep, Eaters of Light as having featured Clara as the companion, but I couldn’t find it in her episodes – now I know why). Bill should be very, very afraid – Bad Things happen to Companions who get too good at the job 😉

    (Damn.    Had a wifi glitch and lost half the message and had to retype it.   I should know to write these things in a text editor and copy&paste when finished!).


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I guess you learn something new every day.

    Furthermore are you a professional reviewer as that sounds pretty interesting.

    I guess we know Bill should be getting worried as you say shes getting more competent and something will happen to her if she thinks she can be like the Doctor in a way as some companies do but a tragic end doesnt always accour to these type of characters , like Martha left which stopped anything too tragic from happening to her and others refuse to go with the Doctor when he offers them a trip in the TARDIS , you know mayby we should have had another series with 12 to spend more time with Bill.

    I just remembered back to companies I want with 12 please please please bring Grant aka Doctor Mysterio back , I would have loved him with 12th but if I have him again with another Doctor that would be fantastic , I dont get why a lot of people hate that ep like ok mayby it has some flaws but its soo comforting , funny , well executed and it has nice Christmas vibes also Doctor Mysterio is amazing I am sure he is the same actor from that Dragon Ball Z film which is kinda bad but I really liked the actor from that so its wonderful he was such an awesome character in a really sweet Doctor Who ep in fact its my fav ep from series 9 and I know Heaven Sent is like perfect but when I want a lovely heartwarming story I will be watching The Return of Doctor Mysterio with a gleaming smile 🙂

    Declan Sargent


    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi Declan

    No, *I am not a professional reviewer*

    Sorry for shouting, but I want to kill that idea before it even gets started.

    I realise having said “some reviewers disagree with me” could give that impression, but I certainly hadn’t intended to.   My fault for not being clearer.    But no, I’ve never done a ‘review’ of any Doctor Who episode.   My comments on this site are just random thoughts and opinions, like yours and everybody else’s.    If I’m familiar with what some reviewers say, it’s only because I’ve been Googling some of their reviews after I watch episodes.

    I have nothing against professional reviewers, and in a different world I wouldn’t mind being one, but I have a strong urge not to misrepresent myself.    I’ll comment further about the companions in a few moments, but I just wanted to get that in quick

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I am sorry for jumping to conclusions and landing on the wrong idea and if I have offended you I am deeply sorry.

    I am looking forward to your views on the companions as I bet everyone here is 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi Declan

    Absolutely no offence taken.   The misunderstanding was perfectly natural, and arose out of my own wording, so I can’t blame anyone else.    There’s nothing wrong with being a professional reviewer, I was just in a hurry to correct it because I’m not one.   Back to episodes…

    Certainly Bill was taking major risks in ‘Pyramid at the end of the earth’, the Monks might have fried her like they did the generals, or done something else dreadful to her, she didn’t know. And one might say she had no business trading the Earth in return for fixing the Doctor. And in Lie of the Land, again Bill risked getting her brain fried, and was the cause of the Monks defeat. (In fact, both those times, I think Bill was taking on more authority than Clara ever did). Of course, when Bill finally met her end (at the end of the season), it wasn’t as a result of anything like that, more just an accident. But being around the Doc was always a high-risk occupation. Another season with Capaldi and Bill, show-run by Moffatt, would have made me happy, but I guess after 6 seasons Moff was entitled to call ‘enough’.

    I did like Martha, and I cheered when she very sensibly walked out on the Doctor (but they parted on good terms). She could see that she was getting stuck on him but all he could see was the ghost of Rose. But then she didn’t really escape, she got caught up with Unit (I’m ignoring Torchwood since I’ve only seen it once) – and then ended up fighting Sontarans with Rose’s cast-off Mickey. Wtf? That did not make me happy. And it was so – unnecessary, just for a 30-second scene at the end of an ep, tying up a loose end that really didn’t need to be tied up.

    Doctor Mysterio was okay as a Christmas special, I enjoyed watching it, certainly didn’t hate it. Grant (and maybe his girlfriend also) would have been okay as companions, though maybe a bit reminiscent of Amy and Rory (though I guess by now any companion(s) are going to be reminiscent of earlier ones). I think Grant was ‘The Ghost’, wasn’t Doctor Mysterio actually the Doctor?

    Though my favourite Christmas ep of recent years has to be Last Christmas, for several reasons – first, because of Santa and his cheeky/sarcastic elves. We know Doctor Who is sci-fi, not fantasy, so what are mythical fairytale characters doing in it? Fairytale figures who are doing their very utmost to draw our attention to their impossibility, furthermore. And then it turns out there’s a good sci-fi reason for them to exist *and* for them to be waving their unreality in our faces! Second, because of the Inception-meets-Alien vibe. And just when you think you’ve woken up, it turns out you’re still in the dream. That’s always effective. I love it when writers do that to me (some people get all indignant about being fooled. I’m delighted if it’s well done). Sometimes the ‘it was a dream’ reset button is an expedient used by lazy writers to get them out of a plot hole, but not in this case. Certainly not when we’ve been told explicitly what the Dream Crabs do and given every clue to the puzzle. That ep was one that repaid watching about three times.


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthuden

    I remember not liking why Martha left as there was no tragic reason or much of an exciting reason at all and I wanted more adventures with her and The Doctor but I understand now as she has been through a lot , became highly capable but wasnt allowed to fully reach her potential as the Doctor whether intentionally or not shut her down sometimes and she was like a third wheel even though the second wheel wasnt even there and she was very connected to her family on Earth so it makes sense 🙂

    I think that I the Micky and Martha scene is to make it clear that Mickey has fully moved on from Rose as his love for her was slipping a lot in series 2 and you can tell that he doesn’t care in that way for her anymore as in series 4 when they are on the Dalek Cruciable he doesn’t really show any affection for her , I also think that Martha being in that scene is fine as if it was someone new we would be asking who is that why are they with Micky or Martha if it was the other way around and we would be left with soo many questions , I also think you can have have your own story with them fighting aliens on Earth whilst talking about their adventures with the Doctor which is a unique thing they both have and that connects them and Micky has nobody left and Marthas’s family doesn’t really know much about the aliens around them so they can share their knowledge and memories about that type of stuff together

    opps I meant the Ghost but the title name was in my head thank you for noticing and informing me 🙂

    I lost soo much writing , I had a few paragraphs but something happened and it wasnt saved ahh , things may be said different and I probs wrote a lot more as I remember other thing like the Dalek Crucible but I hope you get the point its still annoying though.

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan

    Well, Martha was the only NuWho companion who left of her own volition. I liked Martha and would have happily watched her in another season, but if she had to leave I applauded her decision. It was certainly a ‘different’ way to leave. I suppose having developed a crush on the Doctor, it might have been a little difficult to write her for another season.

    I was a bit unhappy that a bright young doctor got turned into a soldier; but more so that she ended up married (?!) to Mickey, the useless boyfriend. Okay, so he improved a bit, but he was never the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. And why married, ffs? Martha and Mickey, either or both, could have been shown fighting Sontarans without needing that. It did absolutely nothing for Martha, IMO. Maybe it was supposed to be a consolation prize for Mickey, but I couldn’t care less about that. And I couldn’t see any chemistry between them. If there had been any story between them in episodes there might have been some basis for it, but coming out of nowhere – as I said earlier, I think it was just RTD trying to tie up loose ends that weren’t really loose and didn’t need tieing. I’m quite happy to leave their futures undefined and their options open.

    Umm, I’m in danger of contravening the rules (and my own unwritten rule) about too much negativity so I’d better stop there. If you like to fanfic their relationship then good for you.

    (My unwritten rule – 1. Don’t be negative about too much, and 2. The fans (including me) don’t own the characters, the production staff do. So what they say is canon. Without them, there would be nothing for the fans to be fannish about.)


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent those are good rules to stick by , I dont really think much about their relationship but if you see that scene then I guess thats a main path you could believe they are going down.

    I am currently watching Kill the Moon , I was watching it last night but I feel asleep after the Doctor left haha I see some issues with the ep that I havnt heard mentioned before but its not as bad as I thought 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Well, I survived Who going full Edgar Rice Burroughs (the Martian one).    So now I’m up to Eaters of Light, which I like a lot better.   The Roman soldiers/deserters were surprisingly decent fellows, I was much amused that they found Bill’s sexual preferences quaintly old-fashioned.   (That’s two lots of deserters in a cave in two episodes).    I actually understood the rationale for the Romans/Picts guarding the gate at the end of the ep, much better this time around (better than my first view a year ago) – due to the time slip, their ‘lifetime’ inside the gate was virtually ‘forever’ in our world.

    I have a slightly melancholic feel watching this ep, because I know it’s the last ‘regular’ ep, tomorrow is the beginning of the end.

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    P.S.   Intriguing that the Tardis’s translation field extended to the cave the Romans were hiding in and the cairn at the Gate – and presumably the Doctor must have ‘fixed’ it so the field persisted inside the Gate forever, for the benefit of the Picts and Romans (or maybe by the time the field wore off they would have evolved a pidgin)

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent this all sounds very intriguing but as I have not seen the ep most of what you said is going over my head so I will not comment too much on it till I see the ep.

    If you all want I can write some of my thoughts about Kill The Moon but I know its not everyones fav so its up to all of you ps I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would 🙂

    Take care everyone hugs 🙂

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent


    Hi Declan

    Up to you if you want to share your thoughts on Kill The Moon.   I’d be interested,  can’t promise to agree but that doesn’t matter.    This is a democracy   🙂


    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I might forgot somethings here and there but I will try and give most of my thoughts on the ep.

    First of I found it soo funny when they had the little count down at the beginning that is pretty much the length of the ep feels like 42 all over again haha.

    What is Clara on about when she is telling the Doctor that Courtney is special like mayby she has issues no offense but as a teacher why are you trying to convince somewhere who doenst know the kid that they are special when they dont need to know that , and she is soo smug when Courtney is moaning at the Doctor about being special what sort of teacher does that.

    I had seen some review of the ep so I knew some thing like the Doctors yoyo so I wasnt too like oh wow I didnt notice that but its was still pretty funny and int resting when he was like whats wrong with the Moon cause of the gravity.

    I thought it was a bit strange the Doctor told the other crew that he was an alien and a Time Lord out of nowhere and so causally when they first meet like he would normally get the physic paper or take control in other way espically to humans who dont know what a Time Lord is unless they are really familiar with aliens ect or in great danger like his speech on the Titanic Ship.

    I am not too sure why that extra who was walking back to the ship decided ah I will look down this hole but mayby he heard the spiders so I cant blame him to much as its human to investigate if you think something is there plus its early days of human space travel and its the Moon so I guess he was curious to find something new that was a great discovery for science when he possibly heard the noises of the spiders.

    Another point about Clara though its brief so its not that important but I was a little surprised when she hugged Courtney and told her its gonna be fine after she saw a dead man this isnt too bad cause she is a kid and duh the environment and seeing a dead body face to face would be very scary but I reckoned she would be a bit calmer as we all see that type of stuff in films so we dont get too scared now a days mmm its whatever and Clara comforting her like a Mother would I know she has a ‘duty of care’ but I felt it was pushing it a bit.

    Thinking about it why did she want Courtney to go with the Doctor soo much how is that duty of care when you know its dangerous with the Doctor.

    I dont know how I feel about the Spiders being one cell bacteria who knows what could happen ok yes its probs impossible but again who knows its Doctor Who though I thought it was kinda funny when Courtney was like it kills 99.9% of bacteria but how does she know that its bacteria and why didnt she run to the door quicker ahh.

    I thought the Space women was a bit too eager to kill the Moon Alien when the Doctor was talking about it she was like we kill it and I have all these bombs ect I dotn care if I die so long as it dies something like that I get it is making Earth a really bad place and could end all life on Earth but she didnt have much compassion or anything just I am a solider type thing so I will typically go for the kill everything option no offense to anyone here but thats kinda how soldiers are shown in Doctor Who like obeying orders and not caring too much about alien life apart from Danny I think he would care.

    Side note I liked the little scene when all the spiders were walking on the moon when it was collapsing I think a swarm of them is pretty cool to see.

    Then Courtney decides she has had enough ok fair enough I guess but then she automatically forgots the seriousness of the situation with things like ‘got any games’ and ‘I am bored’ #its in my school book and ohhhh Danny Pink Miss haha this child ahh.

    I think the Doctor has a good point its basically humanity’s moon in fact if you were rich enough and land on the Moon I am sure you can claim it yours or buy areas of it here on Earth so it really does make sense that its humanity’s choice so what is Clara moaning about again yeah she thinks the Doctor can help but after he explains its their choice she should be like ah yeah fair enough thanks not having a go at him , if an alien decided the fate of the Moon or worse the Earth say they said we are gonna sell half of the earth any questions of course humans are gonna be saying its our Moon/Earth it our choice ect how annoyed would you be if the choice in the ep was decided by an alien who doesn’t live on Earth ect so I can not agree with Clara here at all and I was laughing at her stupidity and angry when I would expect her to flip out if the Doctor took her choice here and ‘dont ask me to take my stabilizers off or say sorry’ I was laughing soo much like sorry Clara lovers but she got crushed there she is moaning and being asked to help humanity and I am glad the Doctor finally made her do something important without help you know.

    It was kinda stupid with the turn your lights on or off to decide the fate of the Moon what sort of system is that it has a lot of flaws from what I have heard plus I am sure today it only takes 2 mins to send messages from Earth to Mars so the moon which is a lot closer any message wouldn’t take to long I mean they are speaking to that guy alright no lag or delay ect and its the future your telling me they couldn’t set up a voting poll and send it over signals to the Moon base mayby the site would crash but its the future and like half of Earth wouldn’t be able to show their lights to the Moon and other reasons like everyone doing it all at the same time and power plants , hospitals and police stations mayby need their lights all when its dark.

    It doenst matter though as Clara decides to ignore all humans and stop the bomb mayby she cares about the alien mayby she just wants to survive but then she moans about everything after so mayby it wasn’t out of care of the alien just self care.

    #choices choices

    It was kinda nice to see her speak to Danny about it but does she care for him that much or just when the Doctor is pissed or left her alone cause oh I know she walked out.

    #what goings happening , like come on Courtney whats been happening on through the ep space alien the Moon being an egg of course its hatching urgh

    I have just realized I have complained a lot but honestly I really like the ep like 8/10 around that area the vibe was cool , the look of the spiders , the atmosphere , The Doctor obs lots of hints about humanity going to the stars ect it was a really nice ep better than what I heard from others and what I was expecting though Clara and Courtney’s stupidity at times , the angry and little since of compassion from the Women who leads the crew at the through parts (although she kinda redeemed herself with thanking the Doctor ect) plus wobbly science kinda spoiled the ep at points but I am really liking nearly all the eps in series 8

    I am sorry guys I always end up writing such long reviews.

    Declan Sargent



    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Hi Declan

    Kill the Moon – I see you concentrated on the human relationships.   It wasn’t that that turned me off KTM, it was the atrocious physics (but then I’m an engineer).

    However, to answer your points (with what I remember from a few weeks ago) –  first off, Courtney was really, really annoying.   I would have chucked her off the Tardis for everyone’s safety, you just *know* she’s going to do something stupid that endangers everybody.    I think Clara was quite wrong to force the Doctor to take her.

    I would absolutely have killed the moon alien *if* it was sure the alien would kill all life on earth.   But of course this was a huge unknown.   I absolutely sympathise with Clara’s fury at the Doctor abdicating responsibility and putting her in the hot seat – he *must* have known the probable results (or been able to predict them), it’s the sort of thing he does all the time.   Was he just leaving Clara to it to teach her a lesson? – totally uncalled-for, hugely excessive, friends don’t treat friends like that, and risking the future of life on earth on a last-minute decision by Clara or anybody else is NOT the sort of thing the Doctor would do, ever.   (I just read the synopsis at tardis.fandom.com, the Doctor *did* know.   That is virtually inexcusable).

    So, even on ‘relationships’ factors, I wouldn’t have liked the ep.   The only good thing was the monumental clash between Clara and the Doctor at the end, but (IMO) that could have been engineered in a far more credible way without having the Doctor go so out-of-character.

    I seem to recall the lights-on/lights-off scenario was contrived because communications were breaking down.   The time for a radio signal would be the same as the time to see lights – just over a second.

    Think I’ll make a separate post of why the ep totally failed in physics terms – you can probably safely ignore it   🙂



    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Kill The Moon – My reservations are twofold: First, I think Doctor Who was maybe unwise to tread so close to the edge on the abortion issue (and I don’t think this is the place to debate that so I won’t give my views on it).

    But secondly, and I’ll happily discuss this, is the physical/mechanical impossibilities which are not only featured but lampshaded. Now Moff lampshaded the improbability of Santa and his elves in Last Christmas *but* then he ‘fixed’ it. Not so in KTM, no fix would have worked (other than, ‘it was all an illusion’).

    First, the Moon is ‘getting heavier’, with no apparent cause. How? That’s a violation of conservation of matter, one of the fundamental principles of physics – particularly flagrant when you’re invoking physics to explain why that extra mass is causing catastrophic tides on Earth. Then, blowing up the Moon with just 100 H-bombs? – wouldn’t even scratch it, and in any case, if it did disintegrate the Moon all the fragments will just stay orbiting about the same centre of mass. Next, the Space Shuttle, which is a glider when it lands – how did glide to a landing on the Moon with no air to glide with? How was there any apparent gravity to operate a yo-yo? – there should have been NO ‘gravity’ as the Shuttle headed ballistically towards impact.
    Next, not a physics point, but how would you get everyone on (half of) Earth to agree to switch their lights off at an hour’s notice? And finally, how does a newly-hatched creature lay an egg of equal size and mass to itself? Oh, one more thing, when that moon-sized dragon flew away – wings? In space? How does that work without air to react against? And flapping in real time, say a 2-second period with an amplitude approximately equal to the Moon’s diameter, which means a peak velocity of 4000 km/sec, or an acceleration of about 400,000g – just exactly what materials is the dragon made of?

    Why does that kill the story for me when I can accept ‘bigger on the inside’ and time travel? Because the Tardis is alien tech, whereas the whole premise of KTM is explicitly based on Earth technology and actual physics (for example, the moon having effect on tides).

    It’s a matter of context and consistency within the story. The Doctor can ride his old Triumph bike up the Shard (in The Bells of St John) because he’s ‘fixed’ it with alien tech. I’m happy with that. But we *know* that if Clara tried riding her perfectly-ordinary little bike up that it would instantly fall off and seriously injure her, because ‘real’ earth physics applies. Following any story requires an assumption that things will work as they do in our world *unless* there is some special reason, supplied by the story, for them to work differently. Fire and bullets and lack of air will kill you. Water is wet and (some) things float on it. People can’t fly (without help). And so on.

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Dentarthurdent. Reason: Corrected accleration to 400,000g
    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    Maybe my previous post should be in the Kill The Moon forum, which I am now reading, but there’s another point I’d missed, made by Badwulf on 4thOct2014, that the Space Shuttle wouldn’t even be at the Moon because it could barely lift one maximum-size H-bomb into low earth orbit  (Shuttle capacity 24 tonnes, Tsar Bomba weight 27 tonnes)…   why (for the purposes of the story) didn’t Earth just build a super-rocket?

    Oochillyo @oochillyo

    hey @dentarthurdent I just thought what if the alien is like a bacteria may sound crazy but the spiders are bacteria , the alien lays an egg the same size as it mayby its like when a germ splits to make another germ or its using the shell of other bacteria to protect itself as germs can do although if its an egg mayby there is noway to explain this and some bacteria can survive in space and others can thrive in space whilst having the force of 400,000 g impact on them no joke and I am not copying you or something like that but its true check out Vsauce on YouTube and their ep on Epic Leaps , its near the end of the vid but they explain it there so it could be possible in the Doctor Who ep that the alien is a form of bacteria in the future.

    Declan Sargent

    Dentarthurdent @dentarthurdent

    One thing I have to retract from my post at 11:10pm – the yo-yo wasn’t ‘wrong’ as I stated, the Doctor employed it *after* touchdown, not before.   (The synopsis at  tardis.fandom.com  had events out of sequence).   But the Shuttle would still have made a new crater when it hit.

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