S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

Home Forums Episodes The Eleventh Doctor S33 (7) 14 – The Name of the Doctor

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  • #9668
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @theoriginal9321 It does not matter when he gave it to her. We know it is his incarnation, but that is all. He could have asked the machine(JttCotT) to make one for her specifications

    #9670
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Just realised: William Hartnell, Patrick Troughton, Jon Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Richard Hurndall (as the First), Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, Paul McGann, Christopher Eccleston, David Tennant, Matt Smith – and now John Hurt.

    (And I did that from memory. Phew!)

    John Hurt will be the thirteenth actor to take the role of ‘The Doctor’ in the official television continuity. So they’ve cast him as ‘The Unlucky Doctor’. 🙂

    #9671
    PhaseShift @phaseshift
    Time Lord

    OK – some calm has descended on Château Phassehift, so some observations.

    1. Series 7 starts with a massive Dalek and ends in a massive Tardis – the icons the the brand “in your face”.

    2. Yep – I went with Clara as an ordinary girl who became the female fracture in the fractal fabric of time and space. I kind of hope @bluesqueakpip‘s musings on why that’s wrong are true though.

    3. Loving the thoughts on Doctor Zero, alternate eights and nines as well. The thing is – reintroducing the leaf – the unrealised realities as he tries to save Clara. Is that a clue that this “new” Doctor is a unrealised verion of the Doctor. Am I right that the Valeyard was a “potential” Doctor given form (I’ve tried to eliminate the sixth Doctor from my timestream).

    I’m pretty sure in the novel “Matrix”, he was portrayed that way, corrupting other versions to his philosophy (The first killing the caveman, Four killing the Daleks, Five keeping the antidote for the toxic stuff for himself, etc).

    4. I still like the thought of my hippocratic oath ideas. Almost a pledge to himself to do no harm. The reason he took the “Name of the Doctor”.

    The line used last series “I’ve been running so long now…” I always thought meant running from the Timelords, but from his past or potential future is really a better idea.

    5. I have no idea if anyone has watched the complete run of series 7. If not, watch from “God Complex” onwards (including Chrimbo Specials) and savour Matt at work. He really is spellbinding. When you do, you see the little things that are driving him away from contact. Ignore the companions, they are the distraction. That run is his. Brilliantly done.

    #9672
    Drwho @drwho

    New to the forum and i’ve just watched the Name of the Doctor. What generations of the doctor featured in the time war? Like jim said, if Paul mchann through ecclestone were the generations in the time war john hurt might be the doctor that fought in the time war, if doctor who  never showed the time war ( Havn’t seen those episodes).. have they ??? Then jimthefish will be right… hurt is the doctor that featured in the time war but was nevr shown on tv… very confusing……. I wonder if the john hurt doctor did something bad during the time war, because smith said that hurt was his greatest secret, dose that mean that the doctor did something bad during the time war, because he wouldn’t keep a secret about something good he did in the time war

    #9673
    Drwho @drwho

    Anyway, the clara mystery was solved.. kind of….If the doctor went in his timeline , how is he going to get out

    #9674
    CraigNixon @craignixon

    Bloody hell that was good!

    The thing that’s been staring us in the face?
    Soufflé! Bloody souffle

    My initial thoughts were that he was time war, but prisoner zero is a nice thought.
    And that place was like a time lord waiting area, all in his head really which was why he was still linked and recreated the leaf.

    #9675
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @craignixon What was the mindblowing thing with river?

    #9676
    Arkleseizure @arkleseizure

    “So that’s who….”

    If Clara now remembers her previous adventure inside the TARDIS, she can remember what she saw in the History of the Time War book. So what was it? Does she already know who the John Hurt Doctor is?

    #9677
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    I kind of hope bluesqueakpip‘s musings on why that’s wrong are true though.

    So do I; remember this was the first part of this episode.

    We finally got the two-parter we’ve been begging for all series: and now we’ve got to wait six months for Part Two. Oh, well, at least Part Two is ninety minutes long. 🙂

     

    #9678
    CraigNixon @craignixon

    Wasn’t mind blowing, but the fact it was post library. It was listed innocuously, but it revealed a lot imo

    #9680
    ekstroem @ekstroem

    Amazing episode… Totally mind blowing!

    One thing with Clara tho, did I just totally miss that or did they not explain why the Tardis doesn’t like Clara?

    #9683

    Some random musing now that I’ve seen it without a 10 min unscheduled break.

    “Goodbye sweetie” strikes me as fairly definitive, echoing as it does the many “Hello sweeties”
    I’m glad they did undermined River’s FotD sacrifice by have her return corporeally (aka the Flaying of Warren Mears Abomination, for those who have read the S8 Buffy comics;
    I think Hurt!Doc fits most naturally between McGann!Doc and Eccleston!Doc as a sort of repressed memory – think of all those WW1 soldiers who never discussed their experiences until VERY later in life);
    This makes me wonder if the time War is something rather different to what we have been led to suppose. What if it is a betrayal for which the Doc feels more than just survivors guilt?

    Other bits and bobs

    Glasgow. LOL.
    Nice to see Strax get a bit of nuance
    Hartnell in colour
    Susan
    Am leaning a bit more towards Clara is the next Doc theory

    #9685

    Huh – bullets didn’t work on that post.

    #9687
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Still enjoying thinking about that episode – epic! (And trying not to thnk about Smith, Tennant AND Hurt ALL in the next one! 6 months? I’m going to implode)

    @bluesqueakpip @phaseshift

    You raise interesting arguments, and much as I’d love Clara to be the next Dr, I’m also quite happy that she started off ordinary. Well, relatively. Given that she engineered the leaf that brought her parents together so she could be born! But the Clara we’ve seen in 7.2 is the original (as we guessed – YAY!!). The thing that makes her unusual is her decision to step into the Dr’s timeline. then she’s all over the place, every time. I don’t think she’s a double bluff (hey! what do U know, look at my track record! 🙂  )  But now they are (presumably) out of the Dr’s corrupted timestream she can be ordinary (but enhanced LOL) again.

     

    If you are still entertaining the idea that you are an exception to this rule, ask yourself one question: what is his name.

    Clara knows the Doctor’s birth name. The TARDIS made sure she knows it. Why? She has no need to know it. But the TARDIS sees her as ‘an exception to this rule’.

    Yes, but when Vastra originally asks the question, Clara’s reaction strongly suggests she doesn’t know it. And she’s also clearly bluffing when she suggests she’s familiar with River Song.  Her comment re not knowing River is a woman highlights to River that the Dr doesn’t talk about her as his wife (which strengthens her uncertainty about how the Dr really feels about her).

    The telepathic circuits are awakening memories you shouldn’t even have.

    But she has them. Hidden – but she remembers everything about Journey ttCotT. The TARDIS also made sure she saw the History of the Time War.

    That’s the point isn’t it? The Tardis is leaking everywere, presumably trying to help?

     

    There’s only me here. That’s the point.

    Agree that’s ambiguous, but I think “except you” (ie Clara) is understood

     

     

    #9688
    ScaryB @scaryb

    Random thoughts –

    The whole thing wouldn’t have happened if the Paternoster Gang hadn’t listened to the whispers and called the emergency conference call.

    Did the Dr originally die at Trenzalore at a different time (so he really really dies at some point) or is his death at Trenzalore supposed to happen in this episode as a result of the GI? So has his death also been rewritten? (Think I need to go and think about this a bit more!)

    Love how the full phrase is  “Run you clever boy and remember me

    LOVED the reference to Glasgow! Feel that my home town is finally on the map – been insulted in Dr Who along with Carlisle, hehe

    #9689
    Timeloop @timeloop

    ” Since nobody else in this room could see you, God knows how that looked..” Cracks me up every time.

    #9690
    ScaryB @scaryb

    And Clara and the Dr running through the bowels of the Tardis after coming thro River’s secret entrance – Clara says something about they’ve done this before. Followed by the quick jump to the scene outside with Simeon and his snowmen substitutes – the Dr reappears (from outside?) the Tardis

    #9691
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @timeloop – Ah, that was brilliant!  For our shy Eleven, he looked quite chuffed with himself 🙂 (Cut to quick shot of bemused looking P-gang)

    #9693
    Timeloop @timeloop

    @scaryb Yes 😉 And his hands are not flailing

     

    One thing I keep wondering about…. Did  she only help eleven? Is she a Matt and David exclusive? A lot of important moments happened with 11.

    Did SM let her say goodbye so the fans are not offended by Clara+Doc? I hope not.

    #9694
    ScaryB @scaryb

    @timeloop I’d say the door/portal is wide open for River to come back whenever. He stories are out of time anyway, and she’s just proved she can get out of the virtual library, at least sometimes. She implied in STL that “her” Dr was older (than Tennant) so she could potentially be in the Dr’s timeline for ages, so long as the writers come up with good stories for her. this was the first time we’ve seen her since SiTL tho.

    “hands not flailing” Ha! No indeed. I felt we got to see more ofhte Dr than we usually do in this episode – some of the emotional stuff he usually keeps tightly locked up

    #9695
    morrisw16 @morrisw16

    I kind of like the idea of the Doctor and the Master being one and the same. The Master was always my favorite of the villains. I’d like to see how Moffat brings him back into the picture…

    #9696
    morrisw16 @morrisw16

    @scaryb “Given that she engineered the leaf that brought her parents together so she could be born!” Dear God, the paradoxes…

    #9697
    Anonymous @

    @Arkleseizure  – “so that’s who …”  indeed.  We need to make a list of all those hanging threads which this episode did not address!

    @pedant – yes, ‘goodbye Sweetie‘ seemed bittersweet, especially in light of what came just before:  ‘Don’t wait up’.  I have to say, though, that kiss (for me) was quite unexpected and I wonder if the tenderness – and seeming finality – of that goodbye, put paid to River Song in the continuing story. (ps also @timeloop and @scaryb)

    @jimthefish – upon a 2nd watching, I too am leaning toward a Time War doctor for our John Hurt.  Or is it the Valeyard?  past or future self? aarrrggh.  Seeing as how he’s in his own timeline at that point, it’s equally valid that Hurt plays a future version of the Doctor as a past version.

    @scaryb“Love how the full phrase is  “Run you clever boy and remember me  Yes, me too.  😀  It was always hinted at, now that one sees those lines in hindsight.

    My only theory now is that Clara herself is the woman in the shop who gave her(self) the Doctor’s phone number.

     

    #9699
    AbbyAnarchy @abbyanarchy

    I like how Steven Moffat never actually said we would hear the Doctor’s name, just that it would be said, Clever, clever Moffat.

    #9700
    Anonymous @

    @scaryb“She implied in STL that “her” Dr was older (than Tennant)”

    Actually – and I have a very scatty memory so I fully admit to being wrong – she said how he didn’t seem fully formed, like looking at a photo of someone  from years ago that you know now.

    We all are in agreement that Matt Smith does ‘aged in a young body’ superbly.  So I suspect that the implied ‘aging’ in River’s comment wasn’t about the physical age of the actor playing the Doctor, but instead, the years ahead in which she would get to know him very well.  (And didn’t he look so utterly old on Clara’s couch in this episode?)

    #9701
    Anonymous @

    @AbbyAnarchy  – yes, I never expected that we would actually hear the Doctor’s birth name.  (Although @bluesqueakpip had a marvellous suggestion for that in a another thread!)

    And the wonderful thing about this episode was how the whole ‘Doctor’s greatest secret’ meme got turned totally on its head.  It was never about the Doctor’s name (although, put that down as another hanging thread … exactly when was the ‘only time I could say it’ of 10 in the Library; and so, when does River dig it out of him??); the secret was instead what he kept the Cyber Controller from seeing:  the part of him that is still him but to which he cannot ascribe the name ‘Doctor’.

    #9703
    Lula @lula

    Hello y’all!  I loved the episode and, yes, I’m gonna say it:  I require a re-watch.  (Of the entire episode, not just THE kiss, because I’ve already re-watched that 5 times now. I have no shame.)

    But speaking of THE kiss, as Twitter and Tumblr implodes with “River feels,” and “OMG, HER LAST APPEARANCE” meltdowns, here’s my thoughts about that scenario.

    We’ve now seen the Doctor finally coming to terms with River’s death in the Library–his guilt over what happened there, and the feelings he has for her.  River implies that he can see her again, if he so chooses.  “Spoilers!” Of course that’s River letting him know that Clara is alive, but I also think that particular “Spoilers!” proclamation was rife with double meaning. (Even more so than usual.)

    I believe that moment in the Tomb Tardis was when the Doctor becomes River’s Doctor.  He accepts that he loves her, as he accepts her death in the Library.  This is the Doctor that River knows when they first meet in the Library–the one she remembers, the one she speaks of to Ten, when he was still “unfinished,” like a photograph of someone before you know them.  When we meet Professor Song in the Library, it eventually becomes clear that she has some kind of deep, meaningful history with the Doctor.   (She knows his name, she willingly dies for him–come on, she wasn’t just doing that for some random Joe Blow across time and space.)  I think what we saw tonight was the beginning of that history, that relationship.  So have we seen the last of River Song?  I’m gonna guess…no way.

    I’m also going to continue holding on to my River has something to do with Clara theory.  Because while we learned Clara’s back story (brilliantly!  The Mill deserves awards for those special effects!), we still don’t know her origin.

    Finally–a few of you know that I was spoiled in some manner regarding the finale. I can now reveal–“Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor” was the spoiler I accidentally learned before tonight.  One of the people who received their 7b DVD last weekend used that bit of knowledge to “prove” that he had viewed the episode.  I saw it on Tumblr before I could block all spoilers from my timeline.  It certainly didn’t ruin the episode for me–because I’ve long guessed that either Hurt and/or Hurt and Tennant would make an appearance in the finale.  But I knew that moment was coming…so it was slightly anti-climatic for me.  Plus…I was still crying over the River/Doctor kiss.  Again, I have zero shame.

    Please continue theorizing while I’m asleep tonight, I selfishly ask!  I can’t wait to read more of your thoughts in the morning.

     

     

     

    #9704
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    Hey that was an amazing episode, really pleased with the writing in that 🙂    Clara flashbacks such as getting the first doctor to pick the correct tardis was simply inspired 🙂

    Oh and I was in-the-ballpark with Clara on my theory,( she was key), and though not exactly a paradox it was a similar set-up that her future action had already determined that she had to continue to exist (exactly as I predicted!!), so she is very paradoxical in nature!! I couldn’t foresee that the Doctors complete timeline (as a portal)  would scatter Clara across all points of his history but this did give her the power to save him and change events as predicted and that she demonstrated a few times 🙂

    Moffet very well done!!!

    So quick questions for next season.

    How did the prisoner know where the doctor was buried?

    Who is the dark doctor revealed as John Hurt?

    How will the doctor and Clara escape the doctors timestream?

    Will Clara still be his companion when/if they escape?

    And is the 50th anniversary theme going to center on the doctor being trapped in his on past timestream? setting up many possibilities to interact with past doctors and companions.

     

    Oh one more, I now predict the doctor will at some point have to fight (himself) in another incarnation  !!!  You heard it here first.

     

     

     

     

    #9705
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    ekstroem
    Participant

    Amazing episode… Totally mind blowing!

    One thing with Clara tho, did I just totally miss that or did they not explain why the Tardis doesn’t like Clara?

     

    Because of the way Clara was created I think,  tardis doesn’t like hey timey-whimey nature. She is like a wild-card (joker) in every event she enters.

    #9706
    Anonymous @

    @lula – as empathetic as I am with your emotional response to the Doctor/River kiss — I fear we have seen the last of her.  ‘Goodbye Sweetie’ was the mirror image of ‘Hello Sweetie’, not to mention, that it was heavily trailed that this is a ‘post-Library River’.  These aren’t experiences that she remembers prior to dying in the Library so the Doctor could live; these experiences happened after, with a non corporeal being (but that having been said, a non corporeal being whose arm can be grabbed … ).

    (but … timey-wimey ‘n all that …)

    @badwolf99 – there are tonnes of left-over plot points!  You raise two really good ones, which might or might not be solved by the magnificent theorising on this site.

    1) How did the prisoner know where the doctor was buried?
    2) How will the doctor and Clara escape the doctors timestream?
    3) Why didn’t the Tardis appear to like Clara – or perhaps it should be phrased, why did Clara think the Tardis didn’t like her?

    Numbers 2 and 3  may be addressed in the 50th.  As for number 1, is this going to be left attributable solely to the ‘Whisper Men’ who the prisoner was clearly defined as hearing?  (just exactly why he of all people could hear them, might be left on the cutting-room floor i.e. the fans’ imaginations).

    #9707
    The-Twelfth @the-twelfth

    Just a little thing that i’ve been thinking of:

    John Hurt aka The Doctor ISN’T The Doctor, he’s [put The Doctor’s real name here], Am i right?

    Sooooo…

    Why is he presented as “The Doctor” ?

    #9708
    Anonymous @

    @The-Twelfth – well, you have just summed up a situtation designed for the bonkers theorising for which this site is famous!

    It was pretty clear from Matt Smith’s dialogue that he doesn’t consider John Hurt’s version of the Doctor to be worthy of the name.

    So, as you say, why was John Hurt billed explicitly as ‘The Doctor’?

    Do your theorising best!  The bonkers the better.  😀

    #9709
    badwolf99 @badwolf99

    Yep good answer on the prisoner question  thx!

    #9710
    XAD4 @xad4

    Hello all! I don’t know if this makes any sense (or if there’s a reason why it cannot be), but wouldn’t this not-Doctor fit in nicely with that somewhat strange regeneration between 10 and 11 in NiS?

    #9711
    Lula @lula

    @Shazzbot — STOP TRYING TO STEAL MY JOY!  🙂

    Okay, but really…

    Clara, when entering the Doctor’s time stream, may have also saved River.  We see Clara at the Library–Ten is in the foreground.  River specifically mentions the Library to Clara–“I died saving him. In return he saved me to a database in the biggest library in the universe, left me like a book on a shelf. Didn’t even say good-bye.”  Out of all the possible scenes from Ten’s timeline that Moffat could have used, he chose the Library.  He put Clara there for a reason.  Perhaps saving the Doctor also means saving River?

    Again, I just do not think we’ve seen the last of River Song.  Besides…I remember a time not too terribly long ago when many of us sat in front of our televisions, crying buckets of tears over the loss of Rose. (I personally know Rose-haters who admit that her final scenes in series 2 were devastating.)  Swept into an alternate reality, banished to Bad Wolf Bay for the rest of her life, the Doctor lamenting, “I’m burning up a sun just to say goodbye.”  The end of Rose Tyler…until two years later, of course.

    I’m just saying.

    #9712
    Anonymous @

    @lula – I sopped out over the River-Doctor kiss as much as the next viewer, so it pains me to speculate that River said her last goodbyes in this episode.  I take your point about 10’s burning up a sun for Rose (and thank you for reminding me of that emotional moment which I also hold close to my sentimental heart), and how Rose returned even after that; so as you say, there is always hope for River’s character.

    “We see Clara at the Library–Ten is in the foreground.”

    I’ve watched twice and obviously need to watch again.  Remind me please of when this happens in TNotD?

    P.S. when are you getting your own fetching fez on your avatar?!

    #9713
    Anonymous @

    @XAD4 – I thought there was a reason for the pause between the previous Doctor images in Nightmare in Silver between 10 and 11; and mostly because a fair few theorisers on this site thought “that somewhat strange regeneration between 10 and 11”  as you say, meant:  exploding Tardises, gaps in time between what we viewers saw, etc.

    Perhaps this should go onto the growing list of untied loose ends?  (I fear many such things will simply be written off, however, and perhaps because they were only there to tantalise the closely-observant viewer.)

    #9714
    Lula @lula

    @ Shazzbot  When Clara jumps into the time stream, she reflects back on her “lives.”  We see her in Victorian London as a baby, then as a child, then working at the Rose & Crown.  Immediately following this scene is when we see her in the Library–she appears to be wearing the red dress/tool belt from AotD.

    Here’s that scene in gif form:  http://24.media.tumblr.com/9109b1dd9df72a6a613510ba150e445d/tumblr_mn0syd7lIY1ron04jo1_500.gif

    (As I always say, Tumblr is a treasure trove of goodies, especially following Doctor Who episodes.)

    #9715
    Anonymous @

    @lula – aha!  I wondered what that one was.  And I thought that was a gun tucked into her belt at the back, so was flummoxed as to which storyline it referred to.  Ta v much –

    #9716
    brotherjohn @brotherjohn

    Okay, first time post, and you read it here first:

    Clara is not River.  River is Clara.

    A lot of theories have posited that Clara was going to somehow end up being River — through CAL, or the TARDIS, or something.  But I don’t think anyone has ever posited this:  Clara came first.

    River was born as one of the “millions of echoes” of Clara.

    But we know River’s generations, and she was never Clara, right?  She would have had to look like Clara at least once, right?

    She did.  When she was born.  When she was an infant (and yes, I’ve even compared photos of Baby Melody with tonight’s images of Baby Clara; they look pretty similar.  I mean… they’re BABIES).

    River — Time Lord-River, TARDIS-River, Rory and Amy’s River — is but one of the scattered echos of Clara sent across the Doctor’s timeline to save him.  And save him she does, and more than once, in big ways.  And she dies in the end saving him.

    So she doesn’t say “RYCBAR” when she dies in the Library.  She’s got a lot deeper history with the Doctor than the usual Clara by then, and who’s to say every incarnation of Clara remembers that in the end?  Who’s to say every incarnation has to have the name Clara, or Oswin, or Oswald?  For that matter, who’s to say the words — or this entire plotline — were even dreamt of by the show back then?

    Yep, River is Clara.  One of the many Claras.  Thus the Doctor’s attraction to her.  Thus the undeniable physical attraction and flirting between them (which the Doctor finds uncomfortable, but slips into anyway; see “She Said, He Said”).  And it makes it not so weird after all.  Not that he’ll develop a thing with Clara after he saves her in the 50th.  She isn’t ACTUALLY River; River is just an offshoot of her.  But it does explain the connection.

    This is the last of the “spoilers” River alludes to when she fades, besides letting the Dr. know Clara’s still alive.  As someone (Lulu, I think?)  guessed above, there was more to that spoiler than just revealing that Clara lived.  It was that there was a deeper connection between Clara and River…  because they are versions of the same person.

    And (again, Lulu asked) why did Moffatt choose to place one of Clara’s incarnations in the Library?  Not because she’s going to save River, too.  But because she was already THERE… AS River.  They depicted her as “Oswin” (toolbelt and all) only because they’re showing us one of the many Clara’s saving the Doctor.  But they don’t want to give it completely away.  Anyway, Dalek Oswin certainly wouldn’t pop into the Library to save the doctor.

    And Clara?  21st Century Clara.  THIS Clara?  She IS just an ordinary girl.  One who did an extraordinary thing.

    Yep, you read it here first.  River is Clara.

    River was always Clara.  Not the other way around.

    #9717
    bruinhoo @bruinhoo

    Hello from the colonies!

    Watched earlier this afternoon, came up with a few rough bonkers theories (that will probably die upon rewatch) and am about to open up a beer and rewatch. But before getting to that, thinking back to Clara’s initial contact with the Doctor.

    The end of this episode (I believe) establishes that the Claras’ in AotD and Snowmen (as well as other versions scattered through time) knew their ultimate task of saving the Doctor via original Clara at Trenzalore. But nothing as to Clara’s calling the Doctor at the start of BoSJ – establishing that River does not know about Clara until after the Library makes the easy out (River + Vortex Manipulator = London 2013) impossible . Was the ‘woman in the shop gave me your number…’ line really just a Moffatt red herring?

    #9718
    FiveFaces @fivefaces

    Wonderful: it amazes me how Moffat is able to draw on and enrich the history of the show; it is such a perfect set-up for the 5oth.

    I like the point from @badwulf that maybe the Hurt Doctor is an aged version of McCann. It has been said here that the Doctor has already been up-front about his role in ending the Time War by effectively destroying, as he thought, two entire species. So what is the ‘secret’ to Hurt’s role in the Time War? Maybe Hurt Doctor started the Time War, then regenerated and Doctor Nine had to clean up the mess.

    Maybe Hurt Doctor is the Peter Cushing Doctor (and so not really the Doctor)? 😉

    One thing that puzzles me: I caught glimpses of all the Doctors, apart from the Fifth. All there was was a brief mention of Androzani, but no actual sign of Davison. I probably just need to watch it again. Looking forward to it!

    #9719
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Occurred to me overnight that Clara may be Moffat’s answer to all the ‘Mary Sue’ complaints about River Song.

    Because Clara is what a (well-written) Mary Sue looks like.

    Female, check

    Talented in an implausibly wide number of areas, check.

    No personality beyond that amazing awesomeness, check.

    Highly persuasive, check.

    The Doctor is overwhelmed with admiration for her wit, courage and beauty (though he won’t admit it), check.

    Smarter than the main character, check.

    Keeps rescuing the main character, check.

    Has an especially close relationship with the central character – check. She’s his damn writer.

    Oh, and finally: inserted herself into the story.

    😀

    #9720
    TheLonelyAssassin @thelonelyassassin

    It reminded me of turn left where the doctor died and all the stars were going out. Although to be honest, I preferred season 5 finale.

    #9722
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    Why is he presented as “The Doctor” ?

    @the-twelfth

    1. Because ‘John Hurt appearing as Bluntwin Hootwhistle’ would have the entire audience going ‘Huh? Who’s Bluntwin Hootwhistle?’

    2. Because ‘John Hurt appearing as The Person Formerly Known As And To Be Known Again As The Doctor’ would have needed very tiny type on the credits and his agent wouldn’t allow it.

    3. More seriously: because the only person who doesn’t see the John Hurt incarnation as ‘The Doctor’ is The Doctor himself.

    🙂

    #9725
    jpw1 @jpw1

    Hi folks,

    Just a couple of thoughts: I think the Hurt Doctor was the one that finished the time war and became Eccleston. However perhaps he locked himself in it and now sees “notd” as a chance to escape. Perhaps with CE choosing not to be in it, that Doctor has been deemed to close in character to Hurt, so Tennant and Smith don’t enlist his help. Earlier Drs can’t be used because of Time war knowledge ramifications?  This could lead to Smith and Tennant having to get him back there in the 50th. They may fail leaving Hurt to go and become the Valeyard? Also we saw the dying Tardis in the most recent design; is Smith the last or is it just her favourite design?

     

    #9726
    inigo @inigo

    Hi, I’ve got a newbie question.  Why was Clara surprised to see River’s gravestone?  (“She’s not dead.”)

    #9727
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    is Smith the last or is it just her favourite design?

    Smith is the last; the Eleventh Doctor quite clearly said that the timeline was his past, present and future – but we saw twelve and only twelve incarnations. If the clocks in The Eleventh Hour aren’t red herrings, the Doctor only gets to Twelve.

    And then resets to ‘1’.

    The Eleventh is also the only incarnation to date to have expressed a wish to retire to the incarnation of his scriptwriters.

    🙂

    #9728
    Bluesqueakpip @bluesqueakpip

    @inigo – while I’d love to give some ‘Clara has extra knowledge’ answer, I suspect it’s simply because Clara doesn’t believe in ghosts. And for someone who’s dead, River is being quite chatty.

    🙂

    #9729
    jpw1 @jpw1

    I need to rewatch, especially the part where the GI describes the Drs final battle. Something about “He’s fought bigger battles but this one took it out of him.” That’s how Hartnell ended wasn’t it, only in a different place.

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